Californica cap-and-trade a big success...

http://tinyurl.com/ahupwfs

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Californica cap-and-trade a big success...

http://tinyurl.com/ahupwfs

In a website appropriately named "Hot Air Express". If cap and trade applied
to all states, or by federal mandate, it would work much better. But
polluters still have buddies in states where legislators, with their
drooling tongues in the wallets of Big Energy, don't care about cooking,
choking, poisoning and smoking their populace. They welcome the polluters
and contributors to environmental disaster as they pursue "business as
usual" tactics that try to preserve dangerous and unhealthy jobs for just a
few more years until the old coots die with the most toys and material
wealth, while sickening the workforce and leaving them with no health care
or as a burden to the rest of us when the greedy companies shut down and the
executives bail out on their golden parachutes.

This site also is pushing a subscription to the "Town Hall", which I already
have thanks to (probably) one of the right-leaning regulars here. It's also
allied to the Wall Street Journal, which is also hopelessly biased. Always
good to see what the opposition is brewing, but nothing much other than
reactionary rhetoric and sore loser whining. There are better sources of
information, such as:

www.nationalmemo.com
www.newsmax.com
www.pfaw.org

Not that I agree with all of their content, but it seems much more
reasonable than that presented by the right-whiners.

Paul
www.baltimoregreenforum.org

"flipper" wrote in message
...

Yes, I can see from your hysterical rhetoric what you would consider
'reasonable'.

Why is it that so many people with scientific, engineering, and technical
skills, are so dogmatically "religious" about their denialist and
obstructionist views when it comes to protecting the environment we all
share? We are all in this together, although many of the older regulars here
may not live long enough to be affected by the catastrophic results of
ignoring and belittling the evidence and those who try to present reasonable
actions to be taken.

Perhaps you consider yourselves to be like the lucky pilot and die in your
sleep, and not screaming in terror like his passengers.

Paul

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:43:27 -0600, flipper wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:49:50 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
. ..

Californica cap-and-trade a big success...

http://tinyurl.com/ahupwfs

In a website appropriately named "Hot Air Express". If cap and trade applied
to all states, or by federal mandate, it would work much better. But
polluters still have buddies in states where legislators, with their
drooling tongues in the wallets of Big Energy, don't care about cooking,
choking, poisoning and smoking their populace. They welcome the polluters
and contributors to environmental disaster as they pursue "business as
usual" tactics that try to preserve dangerous and unhealthy jobs for just a
few more years until the old coots die with the most toys and material
wealth, while sickening the workforce and leaving them with no health care
or as a burden to the rest of us when the greedy companies shut down and the
executives bail out on their golden parachutes.

This site also is pushing a subscription to the "Town Hall", which I already
have thanks to (probably) one of the right-leaning regulars here. It's also
allied to the Wall Street Journal, which is also hopelessly biased. Always
good to see what the opposition is brewing, but nothing much other than
reactionary rhetoric and sore loser whining. There are better sources of
information, such as:

www.nationalmemo.com
www.newsmax.com
www.pfaw.org

Not that I agree with all of their content, but it seems much more
reasonable than that presented by the right-whiners.

Paul
www.baltimoregreenforum.org

Yes, I can see from your hysterical rhetoric what you would consider
'reasonable'.

Paul Schoen gets his "science" from Popular Science magazine and knows
absolutely NO history.

And he judges the world based on his Baltimore slum. Think I
exaggerate? Go there some time and look around.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:49:50 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
.. .

Californica cap-and-trade a big success...

http://tinyurl.com/ahupwfs

In a website appropriately named "Hot Air Express". If cap and trade applied
to all states, or by federal mandate, it would work much better. But
polluters still have buddies in states where legislators, with their
drooling tongues in the wallets of Big Energy, don't care about cooking,
choking, poisoning and smoking their populace. They welcome the polluters
and contributors to environmental disaster as they pursue "business as
usual" tactics that try to preserve dangerous and unhealthy jobs for just a
few more years until the old coots die with the most toys and material
wealth, while sickening the workforce and leaving them with no health care
or as a burden to the rest of us when the greedy companies shut down and the
executives bail out on their golden parachutes.

This site also is pushing a subscription to the "Town Hall", which I already
have thanks to (probably) one of the right-leaning regulars here. It's also
allied to the Wall Street Journal, which is also hopelessly biased. Always
good to see what the opposition is brewing, but nothing much other than
reactionary rhetoric and sore loser whining. There are better sources of
information, such as:

www.nationalmemo.com
www.newsmax.com
www.pfaw.org

Not that I agree with all of their content, but it seems much more
reasonable than that presented by the right-whiners.

Paul
www.baltimoregreenforum.org

Cap-and-trade is just another messy complication, prone to influence
and abuse.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...des-probe.html

Politicians don't have the guts to simply create or increase carbon
tax.

Some people never learn:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/G...ad-3302201.php

Some "free market"!

It's amusing that lefties and the press (same thing, mostly) have
started referring to CO2 as "pollution", to imply that CO2 is
hazardous, like ozone or particulates or something. People breath in
400 PPM and exhale about 4%, averaging about a kilogram of CO2
produced per day.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

P E Schoen wrote:
"flipper" wrote in message
...

Yes, I can see from your hysterical rhetoric what you would consider
'reasonable'.

Why is it that so many people with scientific, engineering, and
technical skills, are so dogmatically "religious" about their denialist
and obstructionist views when it comes to protecting the environment we
all share?

Because people make Doom prophesies out of a lot of it that doesn't
always come to pass. Because the CO levels of the exhaust of a
well-tuned Beetle would pass a tailpipe test but the regs still said
you hadda have a catalytic converter. We've been burned before.

And because our carbon use is what's different about how we
live now and how people lived - as serfs, basically - two-three
hundred years ago. It's also a thing that shines a painfully
strong light on the limits of the nation-state.

We are all in this together,

To an extent, but we all check out of the planet on our own
time, so there's a limit...

although many of the older
regulars here may not live long enough to be affected by the
catastrophic results

Most of the models predict nobody alive will see it.

of ignoring and belittling the evidence and those
who try to present reasonable actions to be taken.


*My* main grump about it is that I've never, ever had a projection that
I made work out. This is one whale of a projection. I lean towards
"it's true", but I don't see a lot we can do about it other than
a few cargo cult measures.

If I thought we really could add Pigovian taxes to the mix and fix it,
we should. I doubt they'll work. The rewards for defectors is too high.
For some cultures, you cannot even explain them to them.

I have no problem with the science. It's the narratives that people
build on the science that worry me. This means that people now want
to signal eco-conciousness, and that may or many not do any good.
Meanwhile, you can't even keep hackers outta corporate networks.

Perhaps you consider yourselves to be like the lucky pilot and die in
your sleep, and not screaming in terror like his passengers.


I think that attributing that much power to our puny species is
hubristic. We came into prominence by accident, and I expect
we'll go out the same way.


Paul

--
Les Cargill

flipper wrote:
I don't find it amusing at all and it's a standard left wing tactic to
simply redefine the language so it's impossible to rationally discuss
anything. The very name of modern, so called, 'liberalism' is language
theft because the word comes from the Latin liber, or to put it in
plain English "free," as in liberty. But the left are statists,
suborning the individual to the 'collective' (meaning them), the
antithesis of liberty.

Liberal in the context of philosophy means free-thinker. Their opionons are
defined by thinking, because those opinions are the inevitable result of
thinking, because they are "correct." Thinking cannot lead to a different
point of view.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message ...

flipper wrote:
I don't find it amusing at all and it's a standard left wing tactic to
simply redefine the language so it's impossible to rationally discuss
anything. The very name of modern, so called, 'liberalism' is language
theft because the word comes from the Latin liber, or to put it in
plain English "free," as in liberty. But the left are statists,
suborning the individual to the 'collective' (meaning them), the
antithesis of liberty.

Liberal in the context of philosophy means free-thinker. Their opionons
are defined by thinking, because those opinions are the inevitable result
of thinking, because they are "correct." Thinking cannot lead to a
different point of view.

Veritas vos liberabit. And the truth, veritas, is obtained by free thinking,
not by chanting dogmatic mantras. One of the only sure bets is that things
will change, and "liberals" are champions of change. True, beneficial,
conservatism should just act as a cautionary force to guard against reckless
abandon, and not as a stone wall intent on blocking progress and ignoring
(or actively denying) new evidence and ideas. Liberty can only survive on a
foundation of truth and reason, and not on blind faith or trust in
leadership, especially when the motives of those in power, or seeking it,
are personal (or corporate) greed and selfishness.

The freedom of individuals in a connected society is necessarily limited to
that which does not harm the "collective" or its members. The present
libertarian and conservative Republican factions seek to ignore or deny the
deleterious effect of their selfishly motivated programs where the rights of
the (elite and privileged) individual are imagined to trump the welfare and
very survival of the civilization which provides the framework for their
ability to exist and benefit from that which is provided by others. Free
thinkers recognize and respect this, and work in cooperation with others to
achieve a common goal.

Paul