Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf

My experiments with using an auto-transformer would indicate that the
current capability of the hub dynamo (at least as presently modeled...
I'm suspicious of its accuracy)) falls off rapidly, almost acting like
a (near) constant power device.

I'd ask one of the local "pansies in spandex" to make experiments with
their hub dynamos, but I'm their enemy for suggesting publicly that
they should be required to be licensed, and be fined when they go
riding three-abreast down the middle of a thoroughfare, rather than
single-file in the bicycle lane :-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:25:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf

My experiments with using an auto-transformer would indicate that the
current capability of the hub dynamo (at least as presently modeled...
I'm suspicious of its accuracy)) falls off rapidly, almost acting like
a (near) constant power device.

I'd ask one of the local "pansies in spandex" to make experiments with
their hub dynamos, but I'm their enemy for suggesting publicly that
they should be required to be licensed, and be fined when they go
riding three-abreast down the middle of a thoroughfare, rather than
single-file in the bicycle lane :-)

...Jim Thompson


Good grief, this is just a fixed-duty-cycle nonregulating buck
switcher. I suggested this architecture days ago.

The 555 drains the battery all the time. If it doesn't, it won't start
up. And there's probably ways to blow out the gate of the p-fet, which
would take out the n-fet as a bonus. Amateur stuff.

You spent four days on *this* ?

John

"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:25:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf

My experiments with using an auto-transformer would indicate that the
current capability of the hub dynamo (at least as presently modeled...
I'm suspicious of its accuracy)) falls off rapidly, almost acting like
a (near) constant power device.

I'd ask one of the local "pansies in spandex" to make experiments with
their hub dynamos, but I'm their enemy for suggesting publicly that
they should be required to be licensed, and be fined when they go
riding three-abreast down the middle of a thoroughfare, rather than
single-file in the bicycle lane :-)

...Jim Thompson


Good grief, this is just a fixed-duty-cycle nonregulating buck
switcher. I suggested this architecture days ago.

The 555 drains the battery all the time. If it doesn't, it won't start
up. And there's probably ways to blow out the gate of the p-fet, which
would take out the n-fet as a bonus. Amateur stuff.

You spent four days on *this* ?

My thoughts are along the lines; a couple of comparators flipping a bistable
with a 3rd comparator as a UVLO, that's to prevent the buck from latchin up
in 100% MSR when it draws enough current to drag the generator voltage below
its optimum load curve.

Not put pen to paper yet, I'd rather find time to fully study the tables &
graphs from the link Marcell posted first.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



Of course: "design" by Spice fiddling.

John

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I set
out to achieve.

I wasn't holding my breath, I wasn't expecting a useful result and I wasn't
disappointed.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

John

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:32:00 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:

[snip]

Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

John

Ian Field would best get what he "set out to achieve" by stuffing his
head up his own arse. However, the circuit I presented _will_ charge
the battery _and_ run the lamp. But Ian clearly has not the
competency to apply it to his bicycle.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I
set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to regulation by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge comromise.

There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I
set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to regulation by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge comromise.

There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.


I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time, runs the 555 all the time, and
loads the alternator whenever it can, and probably blows out the fets
now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle.

And who wants to lug around a 20 mH power inductor that dissipates a
couple of watts?

John

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction.
If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I
set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to regulation
by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge comromise.

There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.


I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time, runs the 555 all the time, and
loads the alternator whenever it can, and probably blows out the fets
now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle

I'm thinking maximise the minimalist.

A window comparator wired-or'ed to a bistable to switch the pass transistor,
a 3rd comparator also wired-or'ed to the bistable as UVLO so it can't go
100% at times of high demand.
..

And who wants to lug around a 20 mH power inductor that dissipates a
couple of watts?

Eh! - that's more than the rated output of the 'dynamo'.

I'm increasingly convinced the 2 trolls are playing the mischievious
misinformation game (even they can't be that thick)!

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:30:24 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction.
If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I
set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to regulation
by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge comromise.

There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.


I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time, runs the 555 all the time, and
loads the alternator whenever it can, and probably blows out the fets
now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle

I'm thinking maximise the minimalist.


How many switches do you want? What do they do?


A window comparator wired-or'ed to a bistable to switch the pass transistor,
a 3rd comparator also wired-or'ed to the bistable as UVLO so it can't go
100% at times of high demand.
.

And who wants to lug around a 20 mH power inductor that dissipates a
couple of watts?

Eh! - that's more than the rated output of the 'dynamo'.

Yes. Let's build a sophisticated impedance matcher/current multiplier
to get more power out of the hub, then waste a bunch of that power in
the inductor.

John

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:30:24 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
. ..
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
m...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by
running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar
input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction.
If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it
with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for
lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded
in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let
Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what
I
set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to
regulation
by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge
comromise.

There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.


I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time, runs the 555 all the time, and
loads the alternator whenever it can, and probably blows out the fets
now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle

I'm thinking maximise the minimalist.


How many switches do you want? What do they do?

As few as I can get away with.

As much as I can coax them into.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:12:29 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:30:24 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
om...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by
running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar
input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction.
If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it
with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for
lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded
in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let
Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what
I
set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to
regulation
by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge
comromise.

There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.


I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time, runs the 555 all the time, and
loads the alternator whenever it can, and probably blows out the fets
now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle

I'm thinking maximise the minimalist.


How many switches do you want? What do they do?

As few as I can get away with.

As much as I can coax them into.


OK, be that way.

John

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:12:29 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
. ..
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:30:24 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
m...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
news:beo6h79pqhktoco07ai80dpim06cri41kt@4ax. com...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson"
wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by
running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar
input.

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back
conduction.
If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it
with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for
lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use
a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I
alluded
in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims
now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let
Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do
what
I
set
out to achieve.


JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to
regulation
by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge
comromise.

There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that
in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.


I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time, runs the 555 all the time, and
loads the alternator whenever it can, and probably blows out the fets
now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle

I'm thinking maximise the minimalist.


How many switches do you want? What do they do?

As few as I can get away with.

As much as I can coax them into.


OK, be that way.

John


Eh!

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:01:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Ian, Take note-------^^^^^^^^^^


Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I
set
out to achieve.

Really? It supports the lamp load AND charges the battery.



JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to regulation by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge comromise.

Why would it "be a huge com[p]romise" ? But you might have stability
issues.


There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

So show us... don't be a reductive Larkin replication :-)


But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.

What a bull-**** artist!



I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time,

The only "user interface" would be to pedal the bike. Add a switch
for daytime use.

I thought the object was to have the battery provide power when the
bicycle stops at an intersection, or do you prefer to be rear-ended by
a car when your tail-light goes out? Here in AZ a moonless night can
have you unable to see your own hand in front of your eyes.

runs the 555 all the time,

You have some problem installing a switch where RBAT is in the
drawing? Maybe use a DPDT switch and disconnect the dynamo during
daylight, though I'd opt to charge the battery during the day.

and
loads the alternator whenever it can,

I don't know what you're harping about... it loads the alternator
whenever the dynamo voltage exceeds the battery voltage. (I'd
regulate using burst mode myself... easier to make completely stable.)

and probably blows out the fets

"Probably" ??

Here's what the dynamo looks like open and shorted....

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SE...Evaluation.pdf

50s time point is same as 50kmph bicycle speed. PDF shows ramp up
from zero speed. Protecting gates is trivial.

now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle.

And who wants to lug around a 20 mH power inductor

Here's a 5mH, 5 AMP, yes AMPERES, inductor for my CDI ignition, 20mH
at 0.5 Amp would be substantially smaller...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CDI_Inductor.jpg

that dissipates a
couple of watts?

John


Tell us, John, how did you calculate that "couple of watts"?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:23:15 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:01:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:04:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:15:02 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in
message ...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:43:18 -0500, "Martin Riddle"
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote
in message ...
Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.

Ian, Take note-------^^^^^^^^^^


Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf


Component values included!

Cheers



I always do that. I had that info the very first day, as I alluded in
an early post (I verbally provided the results, same as the sims now
posted... which got me "naa, naa, naa poo poo"), so I just let Larkin
run off at the mouth, just for the sport of it ;-)

...Jim Thompson


You might impress a few simple people, but it certainly won't do what I
set
out to achieve.

Really? It supports the lamp load AND charges the battery.



JF will love it, since it has a 555.

It may have been possible to achieve something aproximating to regulation by
externally pulling the 5k/5k/5k divider, but it would be a huge comromise.

Why would it "be a huge com[p]romise" ? But you might have stability
issues.


There's a schematic taking shape and tempting me to put pen to paper.

So show us... don't be a reductive Larkin replication :-)


But I'm inclined not to do it all for the 2 principle knowitalls that in
reality don't know a fraction of what they'd like us to believe.

What a bull-**** artist!



I don't think the problem has been clearly stated. What is this
circuit supposed to do, and what is the user interface? Jim's circuit
leaves the lights on all the time,

The only "user interface" would be to pedal the bike. Add a switch
for daytime use.

I thought the object was to have the battery provide power when the
bicycle stops at an intersection, or do you prefer to be rear-ended by
a car when your tail-light goes out? Here in AZ a moonless night can
have you unable to see your own hand in front of your eyes.

runs the 555 all the time,

You have some problem installing a switch where RBAT is in the
drawing? Maybe use a DPDT switch and disconnect the dynamo during
daylight, though I'd opt to charge the battery during the day.

OK, disconnect the battery, forget you flipped that switch, and ride
off. That will blow out the lights.


and
loads the alternator whenever it can,

I don't know what you're harping about... it loads the alternator
whenever the dynamo voltage exceeds the battery voltage. (I'd
regulate using burst mode myself... easier to make completely stable.)

Suppose you don't want the drag, or don't want to overcharge the
battery?



and probably blows out the fets

"Probably" ??

That depends on how you solve the problems above. Any switching that
unloads the thing but leaves the alternator connected can put lots of
voltage on the input. If you decide to switch the lights on (or off?)
blasting down a hill with 100 volts at the input, you could get lucky
and blow out the fets *and* the lights. When you design something with
hazards, they tend to manifest.

And it still doesn't regulate, so can overcharge the battery.



Here's what the dynamo looks like open and shorted....

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SE...Evaluation.pdf


Which is what Marcel posted a week ago.



50s time point is same as 50kmph bicycle speed. PDF shows ramp up
from zero speed. Protecting gates is trivial.

Then why didn't you do it?



now and then. That doesn't sound like what anybody would want on their
bicycle.

And who wants to lug around a 20 mH power inductor

Here's a 5mH, 5 AMP, yes AMPERES, inductor for my CDI ignition, 20mH
at 0.5 Amp would be substantially smaller...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CDI_Inductor.jpg

that dissipates a
couple of watts?

John


Tell us, John, how did you calculate that "couple of watts"?

Start with the 0.7 amp alternator, double that with the switcher, dump
into a 1 ohm inductor. 2 watts. But 20 mH is silly anyhow.


This thing hasn't been thought through and isn't practical. It was an
act of desperation, and not a very good one. How many hours did this
take?

John

John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves it away
from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just one on the lights.

It's amazing how much consulting you can get for free here. Try getting
free solutions with this much effort on programming or IT groups.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

Jim Thompson wrote:

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf

Can a comparator really sense up to it's positive supply? Surely not all of
them.

And wouldn't it depend on which side of the 'diode' it is powered from?


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:39:51 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves it away
from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just one on the lights.

That's a _rim_ driven dynamo.


It's amazing how much consulting you can get for free here. Try getting
free solutions with this much effort on programming or IT groups.

I try, but Larkin is so full of hate that it makes it difficult to
conduct a back-and-forth what-if discussion.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:49:29 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

Diode D7 prevents some really weird behavior from back conduction. If
there were a need to tighten up the efficiency, I'd replace it with
another P-channel, body in the opposite direction from MP1 (for lack
of finding a suitable transistor, modeled as a 0.3 Ohm device
extrapolated from my vast CMOS device library :-). Then I'd use a
comparator to make the drop like a near ideal diode as in...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Pe...rIsolation.pdf

Can a comparator really sense up to it's positive supply?

Remember the ripple detector post I made in response to _your_
question? That TLV3501 has a common mode range that extends about
0.3V beyond rails.

Surely not all of
them.

Plus all the ones I design to do that ;-) It's _really_ easy to do
with CMOS. That latest chip design of mine had two rail-to-rail (I/O)
OpAmps and 8 rail-to-rail (I/O) comparators.


And wouldn't it depend on which side of the 'diode' it is powered from?

Sure. But we know, in the hub dynamo case, which way we want current
to flow. From experience with those sims, I'd probably set it for +1V
of margin before I let the switcher go, with a resistive or diode
dropper,

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 1/17/2012 4:39 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves it away
from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just one on the lights.

It's amazing how much consulting you can get for free here. Try getting
free solutions with this much effort on programming or IT groups.



Or alt.hvac they are the Rodney Dangerfield of technicians.
The think they get no respect, they show how much they know by not
giving out their knowledge.
Mikek

"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message
...

John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves it away
from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just one on the
lights.

The original topic relates specifically to hub 'dynamo'.

Rubwheel 'dynamos' have huge drag when engaged and obviously won't be
topping off the battery when disengaged.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:25:05 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:01:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

[snip]

Naturally you will now show us your stupendous solution ?:-)

...Jim Thompson

Sure, why not?

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Hub_Alt_1.JPG

The step-down transformer gives the roughly 2:1 power/current boost.
The SSR (could be a pfet) is controlled to charge the battery to its
happy voltage. The control circuit is powered from the generator, not
from the battery. We only need to sense the battery voltage, which
takes microamps, not a discharge issue.

This is simple and very rugged. It can be switched off for minimum
drag and the light can - special feature! - be turned on and off!

The control block is simple: regulator, UVLO, comparator to drive the
SSR. Transzorb for luck, like the way garlic keeps vampires away.

Of course there are no values yet. One has to agree on function and
architecture first.

Then why did you "diss" me when I immediately had a behavioral
switcher architecture RUNNING in SIMULATION?

You're just an asshole.


Let the discussion (or the whining, if that's what you're good at)
begin.

John

I suggest that you recall that I said that the hub dynamo, at least as
we have a model for, doesn't give you the boost you claim.

Of course I recall it. You're probably wrong.

Nope. I'm right. I even said why. But you're too dense to
understand.

What's the difference
here between a step-down transformer and a fixed-duty-cycle buck
switcher? Both allow the alternator to deliver more power by better
impedance-matching the load.

Significant.



But, indeed, the circuit you present cannot be challenged... as usual
it has no component types or values.

So challenge it on architecture and function. The things you got
wrong. There's no point in designing the little control block until we
agree on whather the overall concept is usable on a bicycle, in real
life. (Actually, it has one issue. See it?)

Whine or discuss. The world is watching.

John

Show component types and values. Otherwise "discussion" with you is a
total waste of time.

Anyone who wants to chime in and agree with Larkin shall be labeled
unemployable ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:45:17 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:25:05 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:01:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

[snip]

Naturally you will now show us your stupendous solution ?:-)

...Jim Thompson

Sure, why not?

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Hub_Alt_1.JPG

The step-down transformer gives the roughly 2:1 power/current boost.
The SSR (could be a pfet) is controlled to charge the battery to its
happy voltage. The control circuit is powered from the generator, not
from the battery. We only need to sense the battery voltage, which
takes microamps, not a discharge issue.

This is simple and very rugged. It can be switched off for minimum
drag and the light can - special feature! - be turned on and off!

The control block is simple: regulator, UVLO, comparator to drive the
SSR. Transzorb for luck, like the way garlic keeps vampires away.

Of course there are no values yet. One has to agree on function and
architecture first.

Then why did you "diss" me when I immediately had a behavioral
switcher architecture RUNNING in SIMULATION?

Because it was a trivial theoretical cartoon, in fact just some
waveforms. And it was a variable-duty-cycle switcher, which is *not*
what you ultimately posted. In other words, it was all show but
useless to the discussion at hand.



You're just an asshole.


So, you have chosen whining over discussing electronics. I knew you
would.



Let the discussion (or the whining, if that's what you're good at)
begin.

John

I suggest that you recall that I said that the hub dynamo, at least as
we have a model for, doesn't give you the boost you claim.

Of course I recall it. You're probably wrong.

Nope. I'm right. I even said why. But you're too dense to
understand.

I don't recall you explaining why. Why?



What's the difference
here between a step-down transformer and a fixed-duty-cycle buck
switcher? Both allow the alternator to deliver more power by better
impedance-matching the load.

Significant.

Explain why.




But, indeed, the circuit you present cannot be challenged... as usual
it has no component types or values.

So challenge it on architecture and function. The things you got
wrong. There's no point in designing the little control block until we
agree on whather the overall concept is usable on a bicycle, in real
life. (Actually, it has one issue. See it?)

Whine or discuss. The world is watching.

John

Show component types and values. Otherwise "discussion" with you is a
total waste of time.

You posted a useless, defect-filled simulation of a dumb buck
switcher, with values, that would be useless if built and put on a
bicycle. You won't even discuss the things that a real product would
need.

You probably don't even ride a bicycle, so you wouldn't appreciate the
issues. Like the biggest problem with my proposed design.

Things like component selection, values, packaging, and cost can't be
sensibly discussed without a definition of the problem and an
architectural approach to solving it. Probably, as a contract linear
IC designer, you're not used to working at that level.

John

John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:25:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

I figure, if you had a mind to, you could add regulation by running
this dude in burst mode, by stopping the 555 via its RESETbar input.


I'd ask one of the local "pansies in spandex" to make experiments with
their hub dynamos, but I'm their enemy for suggesting publicly that
they should be required to be licensed, and be fined when they go
riding three-abreast down the middle of a thoroughfare, rather than
single-file in the bicycle lane :-)


Good grief, this is just a fixed-duty-cycle nonregulating buck
switcher. I suggested this architecture days ago.

The 555 drains the battery all the time. If it doesn't, it won't start
up. And there's probably ways to blow out the gate of the p-fet, which
would take out the n-fet as a bonus. Amateur stuff.

I agree. It looks overcomplicated. Besides that, over here bicycles
have AC dynamos.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Ian Field wrote:
"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message
...

John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves
it away from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just
one on the lights.

The original topic relates specifically to hub 'dynamo'.

I never saw one of those. Is it built into the wheel?


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

Jim Thompson wrote:
I try, but Larkin is so full of hate that it makes it difficult to
conduct a back-and-forth what-if discussion.

I think there might have been a little provocation.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First, I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html

http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf (efficiency testing)
http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html (a simple bike generator
charger/regulator)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp (detailed discussion of these
German hubs)

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

Nonetheless, there seem to be flaws in the design. Assume the full 6V at 3W,
for a current of 0.5A. Diode R7 should be a Schottky, which will reduce the
power loss from about 0.5W to 0.2W. The one ohm resistance of the inductor
kills another 0.5W. And the charging current of the battery is not really
controlled in any way, so any excess voltage will just be dumped into the
battery and the power of the lamp will depend on its state of charge, so a
low battery will limit the voltage to the lamp and/or cause possibly
excessive charging current.

Much more efficient, and simpler, would be a center tapped Schottky
rectifier which feeds the lamp from the greater of the generator voltage or
the battery voltage, and then a PIC could be added to charge the battery
using a buck regulator. The lamp should be an LED which entails having its
own buck switching supply which is available for less than a buck to drive a
3V white LED from 6V with at least 90% efficiency. The PIC can monitor the
dynamo voltage and current, and adjust the load for maximum power, while
charging the battery according to optimum current or voltage.

Such a system should give an efficiency of at least 85%, whereas the one
proposed is immediately crippled by losing 1W out of the available 3W, so
the efficiency must be less than 67%.

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:09:29 GMT, (Nico Coesel)
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

[snip]

Good grief, this is just a fixed-duty-cycle nonregulating buck
switcher. I suggested this architecture days ago.

The 555 drains the battery all the time. If it doesn't, it won't start
up. And there's probably ways to blow out the gate of the p-fet, which
would take out the n-fet as a bonus. Amateur stuff.

I agree. It looks overcomplicated. Besides that, over here bicycles
have AC dynamos.

Of course they do. The problem presented was to add battery charging.
Before you get cutesy and snarky make sure you know what you are
talking about, rather than be a Larkin parrot.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:25:17 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:
I try, but Larkin is so full of hate that it makes it difficult to
conduct a back-and-forth what-if discussion.

I think there might have been a little provocation.

I have the full (provocation) thread in a separate directory. If you
think I started this, I'll send you a copy.

Larkin is a self-admitted manic-depressive... once he goes off the
deep end, he never stops :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:23:19 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Ian Field wrote:
"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message
...

John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves
it away from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just
one on the lights.

The original topic relates specifically to hub 'dynamo'.

I never saw one of those. Is it built into the wheel?

Either front or rear wheel HUB can be replaced with a hub dynamo.
Modern Shimano rear hubs even include a friction brake.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:48:41 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:45:17 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:25:05 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:01:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

[snip]

Of course there are no values yet. One has to agree on function and
architecture first.

Then why did you "diss" me when I immediately had a behavioral
switcher architecture RUNNING in SIMULATION?

Because it was a trivial theoretical cartoon, in fact just some
waveforms. And it was a variable-duty-cycle switcher, which is *not*
what you ultimately posted. In other words, it was all show but
useless to the discussion at hand.

[snip]

Oh! Finally I see... if _I_ run an architectural behavioral
simulation showing that the scheme will work, it's a "cartoon".

On the other hand, if _you_ make a hand sketch, by _declaration_,
that's the only proper way?

John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
.. .

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First, I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

I used the Magdowski model, link posted by Marcel.

I've noted in several posts that I was suspicious of the accuracy of
that model.

I'll check out your links, out of curiosity... I won't be doing
anymore posts on this subject... there's no point :-(


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html

http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf (efficiency testing)
http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html (a simple bike generator
charger/regulator)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp (detailed discussion of these
German hubs)

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

Yep, Ian is certainly an antique :-)

I did point this out also, just change to LED, and you've "loosened
up" enough juice to charge an added battery.

Remember my post upon return from lunch at Ra, where I looked over a
modern bicycle parked there?


Nonetheless, there seem to be flaws in the design. Assume the full 6V at 3W,
for a current of 0.5A. Diode R7 should be a Schottky, which will reduce the
power loss from about 0.5W to 0.2W. The one ohm resistance of the inductor
kills another 0.5W. And the charging current of the battery is not really
controlled in any way, so any excess voltage will just be dumped into the
battery and the power of the lamp will depend on its state of charge, so a
low battery will limit the voltage to the lamp and/or cause possibly
excessive charging current.

You didn't read my text? Diode D7 was just for illustration
purposes... I suggested it be replaced by an active switch. I also
suggested regulation via burst mode control via the RESETbar of the
555.


Much more efficient, and simpler, would be a center tapped Schottky
rectifier which feeds the lamp from the greater of the generator voltage or
the battery voltage, and then a PIC could be added to charge the battery
using a buck regulator. The lamp should be an LED which entails having its
own buck switching supply which is available for less than a buck to drive a
3V white LED from 6V with at least 90% efficiency. The PIC can monitor the
dynamo voltage and current, and adjust the load for maximum power, while
charging the battery according to optimum current or voltage.

Such a system should give an efficiency of at least 85%, whereas the one
proposed is immediately crippled by losing 1W out of the available 3W, so
the efficiency must be less than 67%.

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com

I guess I seriously wasted my time finding out if the scheme had
potential?

I'll leave all the "designing" to Larkin... you all deserve it.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
.. .

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First, I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html

http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf (efficiency testing)
http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html (a simple bike generator
charger/regulator)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp (detailed discussion of these
German hubs)

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

Nonetheless, there seem to be flaws in the design. Assume the full 6V at 3W,
for a current of 0.5A. Diode R7 should be a Schottky, which will reduce the
power loss from about 0.5W to 0.2W. The one ohm resistance of the inductor
kills another 0.5W. And the charging current of the battery is not really
controlled in any way, so any excess voltage will just be dumped into the
battery and the power of the lamp will depend on its state of charge, so a
low battery will limit the voltage to the lamp and/or cause possibly
excessive charging current.

Much more efficient, and simpler, would be a center tapped Schottky
rectifier which feeds the lamp from the greater of the generator voltage or
the battery voltage, and then a PIC could be added to charge the battery
using a buck regulator. The lamp should be an LED which entails having its
own buck switching supply which is available for less than a buck to drive a
3V white LED from 6V with at least 90% efficiency. The PIC can monitor the
dynamo voltage and current, and adjust the load for maximum power, while
charging the battery according to optimum current or voltage.

Such a system should give an efficiency of at least 85%, whereas the one
proposed is immediately crippled by losing 1W out of the available 3W, so
the efficiency must be less than 67%.

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com


If led's are so efficient that a couple of watts is enough, there's no
need to multiply the alternator current. No switcher, no transformer.
A rechargable battery is a nice idea, to have lighting when you're
going slow or stopped. Simple linear electronics is probably all you
need.

A uP would be good for sophisticated algorithms, like minimizing the
subjective effects of alternator drag.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

[snip

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First, I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html


http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html


http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf


http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html


http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp

I had found all those. The Magdowski model is best we have. Maybe
I'll buy a hub and measure it myself.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:18:10 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]

A uP would be good for sophisticated algorithms, like minimizing the
subjective effects of alternator drag.

John


So NOW it has drag?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:25:17 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:
I try, but Larkin is so full of hate that it makes it difficult to
conduct a back-and-forth what-if discussion.

I think there might have been a little provocation.

I have the full (provocation) thread in a separate directory. If you
think I started this, I'll send you a copy.

Go ahead. I didn't read all of it.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:04:35 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:48:41 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:45:17 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:25:05 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:01:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

[snip]

Of course there are no values yet. One has to agree on function and
architecture first.

Then why did you "diss" me when I immediately had a behavioral
switcher architecture RUNNING in SIMULATION?

Because it was a trivial theoretical cartoon, in fact just some
waveforms. And it was a variable-duty-cycle switcher, which is *not*
what you ultimately posted. In other words, it was all show but
useless to the discussion at hand.

[snip]

Oh! Finally I see... if _I_ run an architectural behavioral
simulation showing that the scheme will work, it's a "cartoon".

It didn't even function like the thing you finally posted. It was just
a generic set of buck switcher waveforms.

You never addressesed basic stuff like turning things on and off
without blowing up the semiconductors.



On the other hand, if _you_ make a hand sketch, by _declaration_,
that's the only proper way?

I never said that my sketch was the only proper way. I presented an
architecture for discussion. The question being, is that the
functionality that would work?

In fact, with good LEDs, there may be no need for current
multiplication at all.


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.


Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John