Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Electronic Schematics (alt.binaries.schematics.electronic) A place to show and share your electronics schematic drawings. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#121
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:39:39 -0500, Jamie
t wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:48:13 -0500, Jamie t wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:46:14 -0500, Jamie jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter. net wrote: [snip] And let us not forget that these non-pm alternators have not used brushes for the field for years now. Nothing but bearings and the unexpected mishap to take place now. [snip] Huh? How does that work? ...Jim Thompson They have not been using brushes in alternators in cars for a long time now. They may still use them in very large units however. Since you never believe me on anything, maybe you can believe others. He http://www.pearen.ca/dunlite/BrushlessAlternators.pdf Jamie OK. I've not seen that in a passenger car. My Q45 has slip-rings. ...Jim Thompson Talking about slip rings. We still operate many large AC motors (Eddy current clutches) via slip rings.. They actually work much better for constant tension control over today's preferred vector systems. But, they are getting old like the rest of us and soon to see their demise. Jamie As one with 50 years dealing with the car companies, they haggle over pennies. So I suspect exciter-based alternators are still rare. I'll ask my Infiniti mechanic if the new ones do/don't have slip rings (my Q45 is a 2005, but only 52,000 miles on it :-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#122
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:50:39 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:01:10 -0800, John Larkin Say why an autotransformer won't work. Because I say so. Prove me wrong. Surely you realize that the only way to prove it _will_ work is by building it. I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Of course with the transformer you get less output on the low end, but then that's what the added battery is for, to power the lights at low and zero speed. John |
#123
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
"John Larkin" wrote in message
... I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Of course with the transformer you get less output on the low end, but then that's what the added battery is for, to power the lights at low and zero speed. I just found Rick's data for the dynamo, and it appears that the RMS value is about 1/4 the P-P voltage, instead of 1/2.8 as would be expected for a sine wave. So I'm curious about the waveshape. And of course impedance matching works, but I think it would be better to boost the voltage and then rectify it so the forward drop of the diodes has less relative effect on efficiency. Perhaps the voltage doubler would be most efficient. Once converted to DC, impedance matching can be best attained by PWM and a buck converter. And the step-down transformer (or any transformer) would need to have a lot of iron to work at the lower limits where the frequency is less than 20 Hz, although the voltage is about proportional to frequency, so that may not be significant. These days there are much better ways to achieve impedance matching and maximum efficiency than by using a simple transformer. And solid state components are much lighter and cheaper than iron core magnetics, especially since they need to be specially wound to work optimally at the low voltages produced by the hub generator (2-7 VRMS). The power produced by the bike hub generator would seem to be proportional to speed, but it may drop off at higher speed because of the higher frequency and the inductance. This may result in a relatively constant power output and a crude form of regulation that results in relatively little variation in brightness over normal speed range. Paul |
#124
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
John Larkin wrote: I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Is it for sure the impedance matching capability of the transformer that produces the benefit, or the trade-off of current vs voltage? I ask this because I don't see any way to be sure of any of the impedances, so how can we know if the transformer is matching it? -- Reply in group, but if emailing add one more zero, and remove the last word. |
#125
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:04:26 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote: John Larkin wrote: I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Is it for sure the impedance matching capability of the transformer that produces the benefit, or the trade-off of current vs voltage? I ask this because I don't see any way to be sure of any of the impedances, so how can we know if the transformer is matching it? Larkin still hasn't run the simulation. And what is this "_one_ of Marcel's alternator models"? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#126
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:57:55 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote: "John Larkin" wrote in message .. . I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Of course with the transformer you get less output on the low end, but then that's what the added battery is for, to power the lights at low and zero speed. I just found Rick's data for the dynamo, and it appears that the RMS value is about 1/4 the P-P voltage, instead of 1/2.8 as would be expected for a sine wave. So I'm curious about the waveshape. What I've seen is sort of spikey, unloaded. It will probably look a little more sinusoidal loaded. But there are all sorts of alternators out there. And of course impedance matching works, but I think it would be better to boost the voltage and then rectify it so the forward drop of the diodes has less relative effect on efficiency. Perhaps the voltage doubler would be most efficient. I think there would be plenty of voltage just rectifying and filtering. But you'd need a switcher that works over a wide voltage range and doesn't blow up when the alternator voltage is really high, 100 volts or maybe more. That's not all that difficult, but a Digikey transformer is a lot simpler and more reliable. Once converted to DC, impedance matching can be best attained by PWM and a buck converter. And the step-down transformer (or any transformer) would need to have a lot of iron to work at the lower limits where the frequency is less than 20 Hz, although the voltage is about proportional to frequency, so that may not be significant. It's only a few watts, so the transformer would be small. Use high enough voltage windings that nothing saturates. These days there are much better ways to achieve impedance matching and maximum efficiency than by using a simple transformer. Sure. But the transformer is simple and rugged. And solid state components are much lighter and cheaper than iron core magnetics, especially since they need to be specially wound to work optimally at the low voltages produced by the hub generator (2-7 VRMS). The power produced by the bike hub generator would seem to be proportional to speed, but it may drop off at higher speed because of the higher frequency and the inductance. This may result in a relatively constant power output and a crude form of regulation that results in relatively little variation in brightness over normal speed range. What flattens out brightness is the constant *current* (into a load, over the speed range) of these alternators. Both voltage and frequency increases with speed, and there's a lot of inductance. John |
#127
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
"John Larkin" wrote in message ... On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:57:55 -0500, "P E Schoen" wrote: "John Larkin" wrote in message . .. I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Of course with the transformer you get less output on the low end, but then that's what the added battery is for, to power the lights at low and zero speed. I just found Rick's data for the dynamo, and it appears that the RMS value is about 1/4 the P-P voltage, instead of 1/2.8 as would be expected for a sine wave. So I'm curious about the waveshape. What I've seen is sort of spikey, unloaded. It will probably look a little more sinusoidal loaded. But there are all sorts of alternators out there. And of course impedance matching works, but I think it would be better to boost the voltage and then rectify it so the forward drop of the diodes has less relative effect on efficiency. Perhaps the voltage doubler would be most efficient. I think there would be plenty of voltage just rectifying and filtering. But you'd need a switcher that works over a wide voltage range and doesn't blow up when the alternator voltage is really high, 100 volts or maybe more. That's not all that difficult, but a Digikey transformer is a lot simpler and more reliable. Once converted to DC, impedance matching can be best attained by PWM and a buck converter. And the step-down transformer (or any transformer) would need to have a lot of iron to work at the lower limits where the frequency is less than 20 Hz, although the voltage is about proportional to frequency, so that may not be significant. It's only a few watts, so the transformer would be small. Use high enough voltage windings that nothing saturates. These days there are much better ways to achieve impedance matching and maximum efficiency than by using a simple transformer. Sure. But the transformer is simple and rugged. And solid state components are much lighter and cheaper than iron core magnetics, especially since they need to be specially wound to work optimally at the low voltages produced by the hub generator (2-7 VRMS). The power produced by the bike hub generator would seem to be proportional to speed, but it may drop off at higher speed because of the higher frequency and the inductance. This may result in a relatively constant power output and a crude form of regulation that results in relatively little variation in brightness over normal speed range. What flattens out brightness is the constant *current* (into a load, over the speed range) of these alternators. Both voltage and frequency increases with speed, and there's a lot of inductance. John Were there spice/LTspice models somewhere or were you referring to the graphs & tables? |
#128
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
"Jim Thompson" wrote in message ... On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:04:26 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso" wrote: John Larkin wrote: I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Is it for sure the impedance matching capability of the transformer that produces the benefit, or the trade-off of current vs voltage? I ask this because I don't see any way to be sure of any of the impedances, so how can we know if the transformer is matching it? Larkin still hasn't run the simulation. And what is this "_one_ of Marcel's alternator models"? That's what I'd like to know. |
#129
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:57:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:04:26 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso" wrote: John Larkin wrote: I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Is it for sure the impedance matching capability of the transformer that produces the benefit, or the trade-off of current vs voltage? I ask this because I don't see any way to be sure of any of the impedances, so how can we know if the transformer is matching it? Larkin still hasn't run the simulation. And what is this "_one_ of Marcel's alternator models"? ...Jim Thompson I have run it, assuming 6 ohms and 50 mH in the source. I proved that transformers can match impedances. It wasn't worth doing, since everybody already knows that transformers can match inpedances. I was actually trying something else to boost the current (namely adding an inductor after the rectifier) which only helped 10 or 20%, not enough to publish. Some of the waveforms were amazing. Once I had that model, it was easy to stick in a transformer, so I did. It worked the way transformers are supposed to work. John |
#130
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
"P E Schoen" wrote in message ... "Jamie" wrote in message ... And let us not forget that these non-pm alternators have not used brushes for the field for years now. Nothing but bearings and the unexpected mishap to take place now. According to one reference, some models of wheel hub generators had problems with water entering the enclosure when the bike was moved from a warm garage to the cold outdoors and ridden in the rain. The temperature differential created a relative vacuum in the hub which sucked water in through the seals which were not designed with that in mind. Newer models apparently corrected the problem. But if water does enter the assembly it tends to corrode the rotor and stator poles which have very small clearance and cause them to bind. Paul vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv The old SA 'dynamos' have no seals of any kind but water can easily run out, with the combined generator/gear hub there's a tendency for the generator internals to get well oiled via the bearing. I've never seen one corrode. |
#131
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
"Jim Thompson" wrote in message ... On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:46:14 -0500, Jamie t wrote: [snip] And let us not forget that these non-pm alternators have not used brushes for the field for years now. Nothing but bearings and the unexpected mishap to take place now. [snip] Huh? How does that work? The type used on motorcycles has a "claw" type poles arrangement, but instead of them being fixed to a core in the middle with the field winding on - the claw fingers are brazed together with non-magnetic spacers. The field winding is static and magnetically coupled to the claw poles coaxially. The inner claw is integral with the taper that fits on the end of the crankshaft and also extends to form the center pole. The outer claw poles are simply a brazed on ring of poles that form the outer of the coaxial poles. |
#132
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:35:32 -0800, John Larkin
wrote: On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:57:52 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:04:26 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso" wrote: John Larkin wrote: I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Is it for sure the impedance matching capability of the transformer that produces the benefit, or the trade-off of current vs voltage? I ask this because I don't see any way to be sure of any of the impedances, so how can we know if the transformer is matching it? Larkin still hasn't run the simulation. And what is this "_one_ of Marcel's alternator models"? ...Jim Thompson I have run it, assuming 6 ohms and 50 mH in the source. That's NOT the Magdowski model. I suggest you re-read the Magdowski paper... it has some shunt losses. I proved that transformers can match impedances. I didn't know that [snicker] It wasn't worth doing, since everybody already knows that transformers can match inpedances. I was actually trying something else to boost the current (namely adding an inductor after the rectifier) which only helped 10 or 20%, not enough to publish. Some of the waveforms were amazing. Once I had that model, it was easy to stick in a transformer, so I did. It worked the way transformers are supposed to work. John Maybe Ian should build your solution and report back ?:-} I'm thinking of buying a recent vintage hub just for yucks and characterizing it myself. Quoting a line from "The Sting", "I already know how to get drunk" :-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
#133
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:34:24 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote: "John Larkin" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:57:55 -0500, "P E Schoen" wrote: "John Larkin" wrote in message ... I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Of course with the transformer you get less output on the low end, but then that's what the added battery is for, to power the lights at low and zero speed. I just found Rick's data for the dynamo, and it appears that the RMS value is about 1/4 the P-P voltage, instead of 1/2.8 as would be expected for a sine wave. So I'm curious about the waveshape. What I've seen is sort of spikey, unloaded. It will probably look a little more sinusoidal loaded. But there are all sorts of alternators out there. And of course impedance matching works, but I think it would be better to boost the voltage and then rectify it so the forward drop of the diodes has less relative effect on efficiency. Perhaps the voltage doubler would be most efficient. I think there would be plenty of voltage just rectifying and filtering. But you'd need a switcher that works over a wide voltage range and doesn't blow up when the alternator voltage is really high, 100 volts or maybe more. That's not all that difficult, but a Digikey transformer is a lot simpler and more reliable. Once converted to DC, impedance matching can be best attained by PWM and a buck converter. And the step-down transformer (or any transformer) would need to have a lot of iron to work at the lower limits where the frequency is less than 20 Hz, although the voltage is about proportional to frequency, so that may not be significant. It's only a few watts, so the transformer would be small. Use high enough voltage windings that nothing saturates. These days there are much better ways to achieve impedance matching and maximum efficiency than by using a simple transformer. Sure. But the transformer is simple and rugged. And solid state components are much lighter and cheaper than iron core magnetics, especially since they need to be specially wound to work optimally at the low voltages produced by the hub generator (2-7 VRMS). The power produced by the bike hub generator would seem to be proportional to speed, but it may drop off at higher speed because of the higher frequency and the inductance. This may result in a relatively constant power output and a crude form of regulation that results in relatively little variation in brightness over normal speed range. What flattens out brightness is the constant *current* (into a load, over the speed range) of these alternators. Both voltage and frequency increases with speed, and there's a lot of inductance. John Were there spice/LTspice models somewhere or were you referring to the graphs & tables? Marcel's graphs, and others I've seen, are consistent with the simple model of a voltage source (voltage tracking frequency) in series with a resistance and an inductance. After all, that's what's actually inside the hub. If the pole pieces have funny shapes, the waveforms can be non-sinusoidal. In as much as the designs usually attempt to deliver constant current into a load, waveform distortion is equivalent to higher frequency, which only helps. Loading will make the current waveform more sinusoidal than the open-circuit voltage waveform. If one desires to rectify and filter, and then switch down, the lightly-loaded capacitor voltage could be very high if the distorted waveform has a high crest factor... you could get higher DC than the RMS voltage suggests. John |
#134
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:49:47 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote: "Jim Thompson" wrote in message ... On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:46:14 -0500, Jamie t wrote: [snip] And let us not forget that these non-pm alternators have not used brushes for the field for years now. Nothing but bearings and the unexpected mishap to take place now. [snip] Huh? How does that work? The type used on motorcycles has a "claw" type poles arrangement, but instead of them being fixed to a core in the middle with the field winding on - the claw fingers are brazed together with non-magnetic spacers. The field winding is static and magnetically coupled to the claw poles coaxially. The inner claw is integral with the taper that fits on the end of the crankshaft and also extends to form the center pole. The outer claw poles are simply a brazed on ring of poles that form the outer of the coaxial poles. Hey, I suggested that, but didn't think it would work! I figured there would be too much reluctance in the field path, but that geometry seems to fix that. John |
#135
Posted to sci.electronics.design,alt.binaries.schematics.electronic,sci.electronics.cad
|
|||
|
|||
Abate Holding Your Breath...Thompson's Design
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:43:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote: On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:34:24 -0000, "Ian Field" wrote: "John Larkin" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:57:55 -0500, "P E Schoen" wrote: "John Larkin" wrote in message m... I took one of Marcel's alternator models, ran it through a 2:1 stepdown transformer, and rectified that. On the sensible parts of the frequency curve, the resulting DC current increases, about doubling the no-transformer current towards the high end. Impedance matching works! Of course with the transformer you get less output on the low end, but then that's what the added battery is for, to power the lights at low and zero speed. I just found Rick's data for the dynamo, and it appears that the RMS value is about 1/4 the P-P voltage, instead of 1/2.8 as would be expected for a sine wave. So I'm curious about the waveshape. What I've seen is sort of spikey, unloaded. It will probably look a little more sinusoidal loaded. But there are all sorts of alternators out there. And of course impedance matching works, but I think it would be better to boost the voltage and then rectify it so the forward drop of the diodes has less relative effect on efficiency. Perhaps the voltage doubler would be most efficient. I think there would be plenty of voltage just rectifying and filtering. But you'd need a switcher that works over a wide voltage range and doesn't blow up when the alternator voltage is really high, 100 volts or maybe more. That's not all that difficult, but a Digikey transformer is a lot simpler and more reliable. Once converted to DC, impedance matching can be best attained by PWM and a buck converter. And the step-down transformer (or any transformer) would need to have a lot of iron to work at the lower limits where the frequency is less than 20 Hz, although the voltage is about proportional to frequency, so that may not be significant. It's only a few watts, so the transformer would be small. Use high enough voltage windings that nothing saturates. These days there are much better ways to achieve impedance matching and maximum efficiency than by using a simple transformer. Sure. But the transformer is simple and rugged. And solid state components are much lighter and cheaper than iron core magnetics, especially since they need to be specially wound to work optimally at the low voltages produced by the hub generator (2-7 VRMS). The power produced by the bike hub generator would seem to be proportional to speed, but it may drop off at higher speed because of the higher frequency and the inductance. This may result in a relatively constant power output and a crude form of regulation that results in relatively little variation in brightness over normal speed range. What flattens out brightness is the constant *current* (into a load, over the speed range) of these alternators. Both voltage and frequency increases with speed, and there's a lot of inductance. John Were there spice/LTspice models somewhere or were you referring to the graphs & tables? Marcel's graphs, and others I've seen, are consistent with the simple model of a voltage source (voltage tracking frequency) in series with a resistance and an inductance. After all, that's what's actually inside the hub. If the pole pieces have funny shapes, the waveforms can be non-sinusoidal. In as much as the designs usually attempt to deliver constant current into a load, waveform distortion is equivalent to higher frequency, which only helps. Loading will make the current waveform more sinusoidal than the open-circuit voltage waveform. If one desires to rectify and filter, and then switch down, the lightly-loaded capacitor voltage could be very high if the distorted waveform has a high crest factor... you could get higher DC than the RMS voltage suggests. John Build it, Ian, Larkin says it'll work O:-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
removing thompson's water seal. | Home Repair | |||
Thompson's Water Seal | Woodworking | |||
Thompson's Honey-Do Project of the Day | Electronic Schematics | |||
Using Thompson's Water Seal | UK diy | |||
Thompson's Water treatment For Decks, Or... ? | Home Repair |