On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:16:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
. ..

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First, I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

I used the Magdowski model, link posted by Marcel.

I've noted in several posts that I was suspicious of the accuracy of
that model.

I'll check out your links, out of curiosity... I won't be doing
anymore posts on this subject... there's no point :-(


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html

http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf (efficiency testing)
http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html (a simple bike generator
charger/regulator)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp (detailed discussion of these
German hubs)

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

Yep, Ian is certainly an antique :-)

I did point this out also, just change to LED, and you've "loosened
up" enough juice to charge an added battery.

Remember my post upon return from lunch at Ra, where I looked over a
modern bicycle parked there?


Nonetheless, there seem to be flaws in the design. Assume the full 6V at 3W,
for a current of 0.5A. Diode R7 should be a Schottky, which will reduce the
power loss from about 0.5W to 0.2W. The one ohm resistance of the inductor
kills another 0.5W. And the charging current of the battery is not really
controlled in any way, so any excess voltage will just be dumped into the
battery and the power of the lamp will depend on its state of charge, so a
low battery will limit the voltage to the lamp and/or cause possibly
excessive charging current.

You didn't read my text? Diode D7 was just for illustration
purposes... I suggested it be replaced by an active switch. I also
suggested regulation via burst mode control via the RESETbar of the
555.


Much more efficient, and simpler, would be a center tapped Schottky
rectifier which feeds the lamp from the greater of the generator voltage or
the battery voltage, and then a PIC could be added to charge the battery
using a buck regulator. The lamp should be an LED which entails having its
own buck switching supply which is available for less than a buck to drive a
3V white LED from 6V with at least 90% efficiency. The PIC can monitor the
dynamo voltage and current, and adjust the load for maximum power, while
charging the battery according to optimum current or voltage.

Such a system should give an efficiency of at least 85%, whereas the one
proposed is immediately crippled by losing 1W out of the available 3W, so
the efficiency must be less than 67%.

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com

I guess I seriously wasted my time finding out if the scheme had
potential?

That *was* the intent.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:16:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

[snip]

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

[snip]

I did point this out also, just change to LED, and you've "loosened
up" enough juice to charge an added battery.

Remember my post upon return from lunch at Ra, where I looked over a
modern bicycle parked there?

[snip]

Looks like modern bicycle lights run on 2 AA or 2 AAA, for
_100_hours_!

So. If you have a hub (or otherwise) dynamo, you'd need to regulate
down to 3V, which, if the Magdowski model is remotely correct,
improves the available current and makes the regulation (and charging
control) easy... actually overkill.

Perhaps Larkin will grace us with an actual working solution? Why
don't you lurkers DEMAND he put up or shut up? But you won't. Sad.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:29:47 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:25:17 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:
I try, but Larkin is so full of hate that it makes it difficult to
conduct a back-and-forth what-if discussion.

I think there might have been a little provocation.

I have the full (provocation) thread in a separate directory. If you
think I started this, I'll send you a copy.

Go ahead. I didn't read all of it.

The history is simple. I said something disrespectful about a silly
MIT press release (really, they do that a lot) and he responded by
saying vile and obscene things about my wife.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do, bacause I don't
design by fiddling. You always have component values available because
you do "design" by Spice fiddling.


...Jim Thompson

The corner frequency, the speed where the
constant-current-versus-speed region starts, will obviously move up as
the load impedance increases. But it's certainly not a constant-power
device in general. At any given speed, it's an AC voltage source
behind an impedance, and all the normal circuit theory applies.

If, at some speed, you plop the load impedance at the peak of the
power transfer curve, sure you'll be on the flat spot. Nothing unusual
about that, but that's not the general case. The point is that, at
reasonable bike speeds, there's more power available than the lamps
normally consume, and you can extract it if you match better. If
that's not true, your buck switcher makes no sense.

If you disagree, say something substantive.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:27:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:18:10 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]

A uP would be good for sophisticated algorithms, like minimizing the
subjective effects of alternator drag.

John


So NOW it has drag?

...Jim Thompson

Conservation of Energy. Since a leisurely pedal down to the pub might
take, say, 20 watts of leg power, a few watts of charger kicking on
and off might be noticable and annoying. People already complain about
hub generator vibration. A commercial product would get bad reviews if
it annoyed the rider with erratic loading, so a $1 ARM with ADCs and
PWMs and algorithms would be appropriate to control it smoothly. But
you don't do that sort of thing.

John

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
. ..

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First,
I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

I used the Magdowski model, link posted by Marcel.

I've noted in several posts that I was suspicious of the accuracy of
that model.

I'll check out your links, out of curiosity... I won't be doing
anymore posts on this subject... there's no point :-(


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html

http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf (efficiency testing)
http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html (a simple bike generator
charger/regulator)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp (detailed discussion of these
German hubs)

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

Yep, Ian is certainly an antique :-)

I did point this out also, just change to LED, and you've "loosened
up" enough juice to charge an added battery.


I've lost count how many times I've corrected the ****wit JT that I *AM*
using LEDs - but he's just too thick for it to sink in!

He really is totally clueless and rambling on incoherently aboult what he
believes is his own agenda.

Its really sad!

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:16:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First,
I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may
mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

I used the Magdowski model, link posted by Marcel.

I've noted in several posts that I was suspicious of the accuracy of
that model.

I'll check out your links, out of curiosity... I won't be doing
anymore posts on this subject... there's no point :-(


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html

http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf (efficiency testing)
http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html (a simple bike generator
charger/regulator)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp (detailed discussion of these
German hubs)

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

Yep, Ian is certainly an antique :-)

I did point this out also, just change to LED, and you've "loosened
up" enough juice to charge an added battery.

Remember my post upon return from lunch at Ra, where I looked over a
modern bicycle parked there?


Nonetheless, there seem to be flaws in the design. Assume the full 6V at
3W,
for a current of 0.5A. Diode R7 should be a Schottky, which will reduce
the
power loss from about 0.5W to 0.2W. The one ohm resistance of the
inductor
kills another 0.5W. And the charging current of the battery is not really
controlled in any way, so any excess voltage will just be dumped into the
battery and the power of the lamp will depend on its state of charge, so
a
low battery will limit the voltage to the lamp and/or cause possibly
excessive charging current.

You didn't read my text? Diode D7 was just for illustration
purposes... I suggested it be replaced by an active switch. I also
suggested regulation via burst mode control via the RESETbar of the
555.


Much more efficient, and simpler, would be a center tapped Schottky
rectifier which feeds the lamp from the greater of the generator voltage
or
the battery voltage, and then a PIC could be added to charge the battery
using a buck regulator. The lamp should be an LED which entails having
its
own buck switching supply which is available for less than a buck to
drive a
3V white LED from 6V with at least 90% efficiency. The PIC can monitor
the
dynamo voltage and current, and adjust the load for maximum power, while
charging the battery according to optimum current or voltage.

Such a system should give an efficiency of at least 85%, whereas the one
proposed is immediately crippled by losing 1W out of the available 3W, so
the efficiency must be less than 67%.

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com

I guess I seriously wasted my time finding out if the scheme had
potential?

That *was* the intent.

John


AFAICT - JT's intention is to screw everyone up with deliberate
misinformation.

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
. ..

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com


If led's are so efficient that a couple of watts is enough, there's no
need to multiply the alternator current. No switcher, no transformer.
A rechargable battery is a nice idea, to have lighting when you're
going slow or stopped. Simple linear electronics is probably all you
need.

The tail light of my 15 year old bicycle uses a supercap to store
energy. It has enough storage to keep the led on for about a minute
after stopping. Ofcourse the tail light doesn't need to be very
bright.

I'd like to replace the front lamp with a led lamp though.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:23:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do,

I rarely use LTspice, I use it for running netlists generated by other
programs that lack the speed-up needed for things like crystal
oscillators. But LTspice lacks the presentation-level graphics needed
for design reviews.

bacause I don't
design by fiddling.

You know I don't design by fiddling. Why do you keep persisting on
that lie? How many times have I said I design by pad and paper, then
_verify_ with PSpice. One might assume your lie is intentional to
kill off business that might come my way otherwise. My lawyer calls
that tortuous interference. Knock it off or meet my lawyer.

You always have component values available because
you do "design" by Spice fiddling.



...Jim Thompson

The corner frequency, the speed where the
constant-current-versus-speed region starts, will obviously move up as
the load impedance increases. But it's certainly not a constant-power
device in general. At any given speed, it's an AC voltage source
behind an impedance, and all the normal circuit theory applies.

You clearly haven't analyzed, or Spiced, the model. I have.


If, at some speed, you plop the load impedance at the peak of the
power transfer curve, sure you'll be on the flat spot. Nothing unusual
about that, but that's not the general case. The point is that, at
reasonable bike speeds, there's more power available than the lamps
normally consume, and you can extract it if you match better. If
that's not true, your buck switcher makes no sense.

If you disagree, say something substantive.

John



Show us the "design" with values, so it can be verified.

If you keep up this nonsense I will sue you for tortuous interference.
If you think not, try me.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:06:52 GMT, (Nico Coesel)
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com


If led's are so efficient that a couple of watts is enough, there's no
need to multiply the alternator current. No switcher, no transformer.
A rechargable battery is a nice idea, to have lighting when you're
going slow or stopped. Simple linear electronics is probably all you
need.

The tail light of my 15 year old bicycle uses a supercap to store
energy. It has enough storage to keep the led on for about a minute
after stopping. Ofcourse the tail light doesn't need to be very
bright.

I'd like to replace the front lamp with a led lamp though.

Yep. Looking at modern bikes, everyone is using LED's.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Nico Coesel" wrote in message
...
John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com


If led's are so efficient that a couple of watts is enough, there's no
need to multiply the alternator current. No switcher, no transformer.
A rechargable battery is a nice idea, to have lighting when you're
going slow or stopped. Simple linear electronics is probably all you
need.

The tail light of my 15 year old bicycle uses a supercap to store
energy. It has enough storage to keep the led on for about a minute
after stopping. Ofcourse the tail light doesn't need to be very
bright.

I'd like to replace the front lamp with a led lamp though.


I bet whatever 'dynamo' you have is better than my old Sturmey archer AG hub
which would only shift 1.8W loaded by the specified bulbs.

Currently I use it to charge a 1.2Ah SLA battery which powers a pair of
current sensing flyback converters that feed to series chains of LEDs, my
design was published in Elektor a few years ago.

The subject of my post on SED that triggered this thread here by JT was a
request on whether better load matching an old SA 'dynamo' could squeeze
more power from it - the consencus seems to be yes.

The extra power going into the battery would be handy for occasional use of
a 3W star LED "main beam" for unlit sections of cycleway.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:47:08 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:23:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do,

I rarely use LTspice, I use it for running netlists generated by other
programs that lack the speed-up needed for things like crystal
oscillators. But LTspice lacks the presentation-level graphics needed
for design reviews.

bacause I don't
design by fiddling.

You know I don't design by fiddling. Why do you keep persisting on
that lie? How many times have I said I design by pad and paper, then
_verify_ with PSpice. One might assume your lie is intentional to
kill off business that might come my way otherwise. My lawyer calls
that tortuous interference. Knock it off or meet my lawyer.

Oh dear, he's given up on a fist fight, and on a road race, and is now
siccing his lawyer on me. Whatta man.



You always have component values available because
you do "design" by Spice fiddling.



...Jim Thompson

The corner frequency, the speed where the
constant-current-versus-speed region starts, will obviously move up as
the load impedance increases. But it's certainly not a constant-power
device in general. At any given speed, it's an AC voltage source
behind an impedance, and all the normal circuit theory applies.

You clearly haven't analyzed, or Spiced, the model. I have.


If, at some speed, you plop the load impedance at the peak of the
power transfer curve, sure you'll be on the flat spot. Nothing unusual
about that, but that's not the general case. The point is that, at
reasonable bike speeds, there's more power available than the lamps
normally consume, and you can extract it if you match better. If
that's not true, your buck switcher makes no sense.

If you disagree, say something substantive.

John



Show us the "design" with values, so it can be verified.

If you keep up this nonsense I will sue you for tortuous interference.
If you think not, try me.

If you don't want people to think that you are incompetant, say
something substantive about the power transfer issues here.

John

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:47:08 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:23:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do,

I rarely use LTspice, I use it for running netlists generated by other
programs that lack the speed-up needed for things like crystal
oscillators. But LTspice lacks the presentation-level graphics needed
for design reviews.

bacause I don't
design by fiddling.

You know I don't design by fiddling. Why do you keep persisting on
that lie? How many times have I said I design by pad and paper, then
_verify_ with PSpice. One might assume your lie is intentional to
kill off business that might come my way otherwise. My lawyer calls
that tortuous interference. Knock it off or meet my lawyer.

Oh dear, he's given up on a fist fight, and on a road race, and is now
siccing his lawyer on me. Whatta man.


Isn't there something about "being of sound body and mind" before you can
instruct a lawyer?

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:08:43 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:47:08 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:23:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do,

I rarely use LTspice, I use it for running netlists generated by other
programs that lack the speed-up needed for things like crystal
oscillators. But LTspice lacks the presentation-level graphics needed
for design reviews.

bacause I don't
design by fiddling.

You know I don't design by fiddling. Why do you keep persisting on
that lie? How many times have I said I design by pad and paper, then
_verify_ with PSpice. One might assume your lie is intentional to
kill off business that might come my way otherwise. My lawyer calls
that tortuous interference. Knock it off or meet my lawyer.

Oh dear, he's given up on a fist fight, and on a road race, and is now
siccing his lawyer on me. Whatta man.


Isn't there something about "being of sound body and mind" before you can
instruct a lawyer?


You shouldn't have said that. Now he's gonna sue you, too.

John

Jim Thompson wrote:
My lawyer calls that tortuous interference.

Tortious interference.

"Tortuous interference" is like in the scene in "The Princess Bride" where
the machine is attached to the hero's nipples.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:13:12 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:08:43 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:47:08 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:23:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
m wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do,

I rarely use LTspice, I use it for running netlists generated by other
programs that lack the speed-up needed for things like crystal
oscillators. But LTspice lacks the presentation-level graphics needed
for design reviews.

bacause I don't
design by fiddling.

You know I don't design by fiddling. Why do you keep persisting on
that lie? How many times have I said I design by pad and paper, then
_verify_ with PSpice. One might assume your lie is intentional to
kill off business that might come my way otherwise. My lawyer calls
that tortuous interference. Knock it off or meet my lawyer.

Oh dear, he's given up on a fist fight, and on a road race, and is now
siccing his lawyer on me. Whatta man.


Isn't there something about "being of sound body and mind" before you can
instruct a lawyer?


You shouldn't have said that. Now he's gonna sue you, too.

John

Isn't it funny that those questioning my "being of sound body and
mind" are of the most incompetent here, definitely Ian, or one who
_never_ shows full analysis or component types or values... everything
is a platitude.

Oh well. I'll win in the end. Watch me ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message
...

Jim Thompson wrote:
My lawyer calls that tortuous interference.

Tortious interference.

"Tortuous interference" is like in the scene in "The Princess Bride" where
the machine is attached to the hero's nipples.

He'd probably enjoy that.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:26:20 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:
My lawyer calls that tortuous interference.

Tortious interference.

"Tortuous interference" is like in the scene in "The Princess Bride" where
the machine is attached to the hero's nipples.

I spelled it the first way, but the spellchecker had its way with
me.... :-(

But the machine on Larkin's nipples would work also ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Ian Field wrote:
"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message
...

Jim Thompson wrote:
My lawyer calls that tortuous interference.

Tortious interference.

"Tortuous interference" is like in the scene in "The Princess
Bride" where the machine is attached to the hero's nipples.

He'd probably enjoy that.

Well so would I.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

Jim Thompson wrote:
Perhaps Larkin will grace us with an actual working solution? Why
don't you lurkers DEMAND he put up or shut up? But you won't. Sad.

Look I just don't want to inflame the argument by asking for anything, but
since he wants to settle the argument at the functional level first before
getting into the details (which might be because he's used to being part of
a design team while you're solo) then it would be nice if we could just
proceed that way and get to the next step. I don't think you addressed his
diagram at that level. I'm curious about the fact that it looks like a
linear regulator (no inductor). And I wonder if the transformer does any
good. All these things could be discussed matter-of-factly without a single
slur and it would get somewhere.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:48:57 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:
Perhaps Larkin will grace us with an actual working solution? Why
don't you lurkers DEMAND he put up or shut up? But you won't. Sad.

Look I just don't want to inflame the argument by asking for anything, but
since he wants to settle the argument at the functional level first before
getting into the details (which might be because he's used to being part of
a design team while you're solo) then it would be nice if we could just
proceed that way and get to the next step. I don't think you addressed his
diagram at that level. I'm curious about the fact that it looks like a
linear regulator (no inductor). And I wonder if the transformer does any
good. All these things could be discussed matter-of-factly without a single
slur and it would get somewhere.

I tried a New Year's token of peace and was rebuffed.

A block diagram _always_ "works" ;-) (But Larkin thinks only his
do... and my behavioral representations are just cartoons. Never mind
that my "blocks" actually do something rather than just lying there
pretending to be God's solution to all difficulties :-)

And I do design by block that way... most of the time, in fact.

This last chip design I did in NY was almost an extreme... I did the
WHOLE architecture in behavioral... Functionally working to
specification, then gradually replaced each behavioral block with a
device-level cell. I found it rather nice to work it out that way.

I don't think Larkin has a clue about behavioral modeling and
analysis. I find it useful because it's screamingly fast.

If anyone is interested, I've devised ways to interface behavioral to
analog or digital, specify levels, delays, rise and fall, etc., both
directions, as _little_ symbols that don't get in my way on the
schematic.

Next week is back on a new chip design. This week I'm cleaning up the
random clutter on my website. I'll announce when the re-index is
done, and where you can get these interfaces, if you want.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 1/17/2012 11:55 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:23:19 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Ian Field wrote:
"Tom Del wrote in message
...

John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves
it away from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just
one on the lights.

The original topic relates specifically to hub 'dynamo'.

I never saw one of those. Is it built into the wheel?

Either front or rear wheel HUB can be replaced with a hub dynamo.
Modern Shimano rear hubs even include a friction brake.

...Jim Thompson

They also build drive motors into the hubs for battery powered bikes.
I'm sure if you look on youtube, someone has a perpetual motion bike
with a generator on the front wheel and a drive motor on the back.
Mikek :-)

*tongue firmly in cheek

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:54:35 -0600, the renowned amdx
wrote:

On 1/17/2012 11:55 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:23:19 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


Ian Field wrote:
"Tom Del wrote in message
...

John Larkin wrote:

How many switches do you want? What do they do?

The bike dynamos I've seen have a mechanical disconnect that moves
it away from the wheel, so you don't need a switch on that. Just
one on the lights.

The original topic relates specifically to hub 'dynamo'.

I never saw one of those. Is it built into the wheel?

Either front or rear wheel HUB can be replaced with a hub dynamo.
Modern Shimano rear hubs even include a friction brake.

...Jim Thompson

They also build drive motors into the hubs for battery powered bikes.
I'm sure if you look on youtube, someone has a perpetual motion bike
with a generator on the front wheel and a drive motor on the back.
Mikek :-)

*tongue firmly in cheek

Perhaps a "hybrid" bike that would store energy from the downhills to
play back on the uphills.

http://www.nycewheels.com/sanyo-enel...tric-bike.html



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:38:26 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


I'm thinking maximise the minimalist.


How many switches do you want? What do they do?

As few as I can get away with.

As much as I can coax them into.


OK, be that way.

John


Eh!


Ian, i think you are starting to see some new light.

Can you get an actual sample of the waveform coming out of your dynamo?

?-)

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:57:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:



It's amazing how much consulting you can get for free here. Try getting
free solutions with this much effort on programming or IT groups.

I try, but Larkin is so full of hate that it makes it difficult to
conduct a back-and-forth what-if discussion.

...Jim Thompson

Just how much do you really have to respond in kind?

?-)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:41:26 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:


Naturally.

John

Naturally you will now show us your stupendous solution ?:-)

...Jim Thompson

Sure, why not?

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Hub_Alt_1.JPG


As usual, a topology, no component values whatsoever. Soo short of a
design. Why did you waste everyone's time with a wishful thinking
approach? Or are too innumerate to supply numbers / component values?

I hope this enlightens you on why some here devalue some of your
"contributions".

?-(


The step-down transformer gives the roughly 2:1 power/current boost.
The SSR (could be a pfet) is controlled to charge the battery to its
happy voltage. The control circuit is powered from the generator, not
from the battery. We only need to sense the battery voltage, which
takes microamps, not a discharge issue.

This is simple and very rugged. It can be switched off for minimum
drag and the light can - special feature! - be turned on and off!

The control block is simple: regulator, UVLO, comparator to drive the
SSR. Transzorb for luck, like the way garlic keeps vampires away.

Of course there are no values yet. One has to agree on function and
architecture first.

Let the discussion (or the whining, if that's what you're good at)
begin.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:08:43 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:47:08 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:23:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do,

I rarely use LTspice, I use it for running netlists generated by other
programs that lack the speed-up needed for things like crystal
oscillators. But LTspice lacks the presentation-level graphics needed
for design reviews.

bacause I don't
design by fiddling.

You know I don't design by fiddling. Why do you keep persisting on
that lie? How many times have I said I design by pad and paper, then
_verify_ with PSpice. One might assume your lie is intentional to
kill off business that might come my way otherwise. My lawyer calls
that tortuous interference. Knock it off or meet my lawyer.

Oh dear, he's given up on a fist fight, and on a road race, and is now
siccing his lawyer on me. Whatta man.


Isn't there something about "being of sound body and mind" before you can
instruct a lawyer?

There never was nor will there ever will be; there are way too many
"wealthy eccentrics" for that.

?-)

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:24:30 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


So which one of you guys is Cope, and which is Marsh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cope-and-marsh.png

Is JT the hairy one?


****ants. Wikipedia went dark over SOAP and ProIP legislation. Good luck
looking it up if Google and Yahoo go dark as well.

?:-(((

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:34:51 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:


I guess I seriously wasted my time finding out if the scheme had
potential?

That *was* the intent.

John

What a hateful thing to do. Guess that is part of who you really are.

?-(

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:48:22 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Nico Coesel" wrote in message
...
John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
m...

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com


If led's are so efficient that a couple of watts is enough, there's no
need to multiply the alternator current. No switcher, no transformer.
A rechargable battery is a nice idea, to have lighting when you're
going slow or stopped. Simple linear electronics is probably all you
need.

The tail light of my 15 year old bicycle uses a supercap to store
energy. It has enough storage to keep the led on for about a minute
after stopping. Ofcourse the tail light doesn't need to be very
bright.

I'd like to replace the front lamp with a led lamp though.


I bet whatever 'dynamo' you have is better than my old Sturmey archer AG hub
which would only shift 1.8W loaded by the specified bulbs.

Currently I use it to charge a 1.2Ah SLA battery which powers a pair of
current sensing flyback converters that feed to series chains of LEDs, my
design was published in Elektor a few years ago.

The subject of my post on SED that triggered this thread here by JT was a
request on whether better load matching an old SA 'dynamo' could squeeze
more power from it - the consencus seems to be yes.

My read on that is more of a maybe, let's try it.

The extra power going into the battery would be handy for occasional use of
a 3W star LED "main beam" for unlit sections of cycleway.

Nice recap on what you have and where you want to go. Some others lost
sight of that.

?-)

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:26:17 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

[snip

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First, I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html


http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html


http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf


http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html

This link above seems to have just what Ian is looking for.


http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp

I had found all those. The Magdowski model is best we have. Maybe
I'll buy a hub and measure it myself.

...Jim Thompson

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:27:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:18:10 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

[snip]

A uP would be good for sophisticated algorithms, like minimizing the
subjective effects of alternator drag.

John


So NOW it has drag?

...Jim Thompson

Conservation of Energy. Since a leisurely pedal down to the pub might
take, say, 20 watts of leg power, a few watts of charger kicking on
and off might be noticable and annoying. People already complain about
hub generator vibration. A commercial product would get bad reviews if
it annoyed the rider with erratic loading, so a $1 ARM with ADCs and
PWMs and algorithms would be appropriate to control it smoothly. But

Using a controller makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking about a PFC
scheme (about 25V into a big cap) and a forward converter-ish output
to drive a big LED. IMHO a battery is a bad idea. Better use a big
capacitor.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

"Nico Coesel" wrote in message ...

Using a controller makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking about a PFC
scheme (about 25V into a big cap) and a forward converter-ish
output to drive a big LED. IMHO a battery is a bad idea. Better
use a big capacitor.

I have some 25 uF 2.7 VDC capacitors that could be used for this purpose.
Two in series would power a 3W 6V (12 ohm) incandescent lamp for a
time-constant of 12.5*12 or 150 seconds, although it would be much better to
use a boost converter and regulate the output so the brightness would be
more constant. Of course, you can get even more light from a 1 watt LED, so
even ONE of these UltraCaps would give at least 3-4 minutes of light without
needing the generator. These capacitors are only $5 each from Newark:
http://www.newark.com/illinois-capac...f-2/dp/02P4416.

Paul

"josephkk" wrote in message
...

****ants. Wikipedia went dark over SOAP and ProIP legislation. Good luck
looking it up if Google and Yahoo go dark as well.

Apparently the protests have done some good:
http://www.ecnmag.com/News/2012/01/U...major-makeover

I emailed Ben Cardin because he was/is a cosponsor and supporter of PIPA,
according to the following:
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/

Paul

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:55:25 -0800 josephkk
wrote in Message id: :

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:24:30 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


So which one of you guys is Cope, and which is Marsh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cope-and-marsh.png

Is JT the hairy one?


****ants. Wikipedia went dark over SOAP and ProIP legislation. Good luck
looking it up if Google and Yahoo go dark as well.

Wiki is still working. Just hit the Esc button when your page loads.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:44:52 -0800, josephkk
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:08:43 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:47:08 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:23:48 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:44:48 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:33:20 -0800, John Larkin
m wrote:

[snip]


John, You really do need to see a mental health professional.

Another unsupported claim.

Nope. By your personal illustration :-)



Hey, why not arrange as many led's in series as you want, to get the
lighting you like? After all, we do have a current source.

John

But we don't... the current tails off significantly as you raise the
output voltage. If you'd bother to run the Magdowski model into real
loads you'd know that... but I don't think you know how to even run
LTspice.

I use LT Spice, probably not as often as you do,

I rarely use LTspice, I use it for running netlists generated by other
programs that lack the speed-up needed for things like crystal
oscillators. But LTspice lacks the presentation-level graphics needed
for design reviews.

bacause I don't
design by fiddling.

You know I don't design by fiddling. Why do you keep persisting on
that lie? How many times have I said I design by pad and paper, then
_verify_ with PSpice. One might assume your lie is intentional to
kill off business that might come my way otherwise. My lawyer calls
that tortuous interference. Knock it off or meet my lawyer.

Oh dear, he's given up on a fist fight, and on a road race, and is now
siccing his lawyer on me. Whatta man.


Isn't there something about "being of sound body and mind" before you can
instruct a lawyer?

There never was nor will there ever will be; there are way too many
"wealthy eccentrics" for that.

?-)

And plenty of hungry lawyers.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:34:04 -0800, josephkk
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:41:26 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:


Naturally.

John

Naturally you will now show us your stupendous solution ?:-)

...Jim Thompson

Sure, why not?

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Hub_Alt_1.JPG


As usual, a topology, no component values whatsoever. Soo short of a
design. Why did you waste everyone's time with a wishful thinking
approach? Or are too innumerate to supply numbers / component values?

Any design starts with an architecture. If the functionality is wrong
(as JTs switcher was) what's the point of having parts values?


I hope this enlightens you on why some here devalue some of your
"contributions".

If people want to "devalue" things, go for it. What I value is
purchase orders followed by checks.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:00:06 -0800, josephkk
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:34:51 -0800, John Larkin
wrote:


I guess I seriously wasted my time finding out if the scheme had
potential?

That *was* the intent.

John

What a hateful thing to do. Guess that is part of who you really are.

?-(

He insulted my wife. Of course that's part of who I am.

John

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:41:39 -0000, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:16:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
m...

Here you go...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Bi...ubSwitcher.pdf

[snip]

I've only followed some of this "discussion" since it's become largely a
****ing match, but I see some questionable aspects of this design. First,
I
would want to examine the characteristics of the dynamo, and that may
mean
looking at several different models. The following websites list several:

I used the Magdowski model, link posted by Marcel.

I've noted in several posts that I was suspicious of the accuracy of
that model.

I'll check out your links, out of curiosity... I won't be doing
anymore posts on this subject... there's no point :-(


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/shimano.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/schmidt.html

http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf (efficiency testing)
http://www.nscl.msu.edu/~daniel/regulator.html (a simple bike generator
charger/regulator)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp (detailed discussion of these
German hubs)

And most modern bicycle lamps are now LED, so the standard 6V 3W hub
generator can now produce a lot more light at the same power, or the same
amount of light with power left over to charge a battery. So the
incandescent lamp model is already obsolete, unless you insist on dealing
with antiques.

Yep, Ian is certainly an antique :-)

I did point this out also, just change to LED, and you've "loosened
up" enough juice to charge an added battery.

Remember my post upon return from lunch at Ra, where I looked over a
modern bicycle parked there?


Nonetheless, there seem to be flaws in the design. Assume the full 6V at
3W,
for a current of 0.5A. Diode R7 should be a Schottky, which will reduce
the
power loss from about 0.5W to 0.2W. The one ohm resistance of the
inductor
kills another 0.5W. And the charging current of the battery is not really
controlled in any way, so any excess voltage will just be dumped into the
battery and the power of the lamp will depend on its state of charge, so
a
low battery will limit the voltage to the lamp and/or cause possibly
excessive charging current.

You didn't read my text? Diode D7 was just for illustration
purposes... I suggested it be replaced by an active switch. I also
suggested regulation via burst mode control via the RESETbar of the
555.


Much more efficient, and simpler, would be a center tapped Schottky
rectifier which feeds the lamp from the greater of the generator voltage
or
the battery voltage, and then a PIC could be added to charge the battery
using a buck regulator. The lamp should be an LED which entails having
its
own buck switching supply which is available for less than a buck to
drive a
3V white LED from 6V with at least 90% efficiency. The PIC can monitor
the
dynamo voltage and current, and adjust the load for maximum power, while
charging the battery according to optimum current or voltage.

Such a system should give an efficiency of at least 85%, whereas the one
proposed is immediately crippled by losing 1W out of the available 3W, so
the efficiency must be less than 67%.

Anyone care to actually discuss this?

Paul
www.pstech-inc.com

I guess I seriously wasted my time finding out if the scheme had
potential?

That *was* the intent.

John


AFAICT - JT's intention is to screw everyone up with deliberate
misinformation.


You give him too much credit. He actually thought that switcher
circuit was clever.

John