On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:40:58 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the crystal?

The "standard" way of doing this is with a series resistor.

How is the customer measuring this "drive power" and how does he know it's
"too much"?

Thanks,
Rich

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?


Do you have a copy of the old Epson crystal data book?


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:21:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?


Do you have a copy of the old Epson crystal data book?

No. Do you have a link?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Californica: Losers voting for losers.

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:21:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
? wrote:

?
?Jim Thompson wrote:
??
?? An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...
??
?? Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,
??
?? End customer claiming too much drive power.
??
?? Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
?? crystal?
?
?
? Do you have a copy of the old Epson crystal data book?

No. Do you have a link?


It was a real book. I lost mine when I was laid off at Microdyne in
2001. It had several pages of iformation about measuring crystal drive
and various types of crystal oscillators.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

"Jim Thompson" schreef
in bericht ...
An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.


Don't know how to measure drive power (in a standard method). But, as this
is an old project, the drive power was not too high until recently I guess.
I know crystals were improved over the years and newer types require less
drive power then older ones. So they can be used with 3.3V devices for
instance. Standard way of connecting a new crystal type to an old oscillator
design is using a series resistor.

My reasoning would be: Either the internal impedance of the inverter output
is too low or the impedance of the load is too low given the configuration
in which the problem arises. IMHO you cannot blame the mains power provider
to have too much power available when you connect a device with too low an
impedance and blow it.

petrus bitbyter

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:40:58 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

---
AFAIK, the only right way is to measure the crystal current with a
current probe, then to get the crystal's ESR from the data sheet and
do:

P = I²R

---
JF

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:56:20 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:40:58 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

---
AFAIK, the only right way is to measure the crystal current with a
current probe, then to get the crystal's ESR from the data sheet and
do:

P = I²R

---
JF

That's my understanding.. typically the data sheet will only tell you
the maximum motional resistance, which is okay for this purpose. With
modern crystals requiring drive levels to be in the double-digit
microwatts maximum, it's a constant concern.

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:53:33 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:56:20 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:40:58 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

---
AFAIK, the only right way is to measure the crystal current with a
current probe, then to get the crystal's ESR from the data sheet and
do:

P = I²R

---
JF

That's my understanding.. typically the data sheet will only tell you
the maximum motional resistance, which is okay for this purpose. With
modern crystals requiring drive levels to be in the double-digit
microwatts maximum, it's a constant concern.

What's going on... miniaturization making the blanks so thin that they
fracture at "high" power?

I can remember opening a crystal case (cover screws), then grinding
with Boraxo (or even Ajax) to get the frequency you wanted ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Californica: Losers voting for losers.

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 10:05:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:53:33 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:56:20 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:40:58 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

---
AFAIK, the only right way is to measure the crystal current with a
current probe, then to get the crystal's ESR from the data sheet and
do:

P = I²R

---
JF

That's my understanding.. typically the data sheet will only tell you
the maximum motional resistance, which is okay for this purpose. With
modern crystals requiring drive levels to be in the double-digit
microwatts maximum, it's a constant concern.

What's going on... miniaturization making the blanks so thin that they
fracture at "high" power?

Yes. They can drift or even fail completely at the sort of drive
levels that HC49/U crystals could stand forever.

I can remember opening a crystal case (cover screws), then grinding
with Boraxo (or even Ajax) to get the frequency you wanted ;-)

...Jim Thompson

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
What's going on... miniaturization making the blanks so thin that they
fracture at "high" power?

I can remember opening a crystal case (cover screws), then grinding
with Boraxo (or even Ajax) to get the frequency you wanted ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Then you also probably remember seeing circuits that used a filament type
pilot lamp in series with the crystal as a nonlinear resistor and visual
indication that the local oscillator was running. Neon lamps were used as
voltage regulators.

Yep, I remember the screw apart crystals in some of my old mil-surplus
equipment. To increase the frequency, wet lap the crystal sheet with a fine
abrasive slurry (Ajax) against a glass plate. If you went too far, rub a bit
of solder against the face to increase the mass and lower the frequency a
hair.
Oppie

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 10:05:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:53:33 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:56:20 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:40:58 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

---
AFAIK, the only right way is to measure the crystal current with a
current probe, then to get the crystal's ESR from the data sheet and
do:

P = I²R

---
JF

That's my understanding.. typically the data sheet will only tell you
the maximum motional resistance, which is okay for this purpose. With
modern crystals requiring drive levels to be in the double-digit
microwatts maximum, it's a constant concern.

What's going on... miniaturization making the blanks so thin that they
fracture at "high" power?

---
Yeah, quartz has its limits, and I think "fracture" is right in the
same sense that the fracture of the Tacoma narrows bridge wasn't
related to overheating as much as it was to Q.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI
---

I can remember opening a crystal case (cover screws), then grinding
with Boraxo (or even Ajax) to get the frequency you wanted ;-)

...Jim Thompson
---
FT 243?

---
JF

Jim Thompson wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?


http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/15287.pdf


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 18:31:04 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 10:05:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:53:33 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:56:20 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:40:58 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

An old project coming back, _trying_ to bite me...

Crystal Oscillator, classic CMOS inverter configuration,

End customer claiming too much drive power.

Is there a standard (accurate) way of LAB measuring power in the
crystal?

---
AFAIK, the only right way is to measure the crystal current with a
current probe, then to get the crystal's ESR from the data sheet and
do:

P = I²R

---
JF

That's my understanding.. typically the data sheet will only tell you
the maximum motional resistance, which is okay for this purpose. With
modern crystals requiring drive levels to be in the double-digit
microwatts maximum, it's a constant concern.

What's going on... miniaturization making the blanks so thin that they
fracture at "high" power?

---
Yeah, quartz has its limits, and I think "fracture" is right in the
same sense that the fracture of the Tacoma narrows bridge wasn't
related to overheating as much as it was to Q.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI
---

I can remember opening a crystal case (cover screws), then grinding
with Boraxo (or even Ajax) to get the frequency you wanted ;-)

...Jim Thompson
---
FT 243?

---
JF

Sounds familiar. I'll have to look in the garage, I still have some
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure."
- Thomas Jefferson, November 13, 1787

Make the world a better place, Dispose of a Leftist Pansy

Jim Thompson wrote:

John Fields wrote:

FT 243?

Sounds familiar. I'll have to look in the garage, I still have some


Yes, they were FT-243. I still have some, too.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 10:05:31 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:



I can remember opening a crystal case (cover screws), then grinding
with Boraxo (or even Ajax) to get the frequency you wanted ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Those were FT-243s and I used Pepsodent and a piece of broken window
glass to "fine tune" them into the novice band.

Jim