flipper wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:35:42 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


flipper wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:58:00 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


flipper wrote:
We can quibble about personal preferences all day long but the
fact of the matter is if you did a split screen of the two one
looks decidedly 'more modern' than the other.

Of course it does, but not better.

We're talking about a portrayal of the 'future'. Yes, more 'modern'
effects are 'better' for that purpose.

Newer methods don't necessarily look more real.

In the first place I said more 'modern' and it doesn't matter how
'well made' or 'realistic' a 1960's das blinken lighten mit switchen
worken computer prop looks as it's still a 1960's das blinken lighten
mit switchen worken computer and not, by modern standards, a very
'futuristic' looking device. I say by modern standards because what we
currently think looks 'futuristic' will, no doubt, seem archaic long
before the first warp nacelle is made.

You're myopically obsessed with what you deem 'glaring faults' but
blind to the whole.

The TNG ships have a cartoonish quality I can't explain. The fx are
inferior to the fx in movies of the 80's and 90's,

It's quite a different thing to make a weekly series than a feature
film.

and inferior to DS9 and
Voyager even when they were produced at the same time.

They were no where near the 'same time' in special effects years. TNG
premiered in 1987 while DS9 premiered in 1994 and Voyager in 1995.

Maybe TNG got better
in the later years and I'm thinking of how the earlier years looked,

TNG's first season was roundly criticized for both poor special
effects and trite scripts with clumsy allegories and dry stilted
dialogue but they improved considerably over the years.


TNG was more of a soap opera set in space, than a space opera


but TOS definitely looked better to me than early TNG.

There's no accounting for taste but I suspect you 'prefer' what you
were 'used to'.

And even if it did look better the
original should be left alone.

It would appear you have a hidden agenda clouding your judgment.

It's not a cloud - it's a separate issue. You could make fx in lots of
classic movies look more real, but shouldn't.

It clearly isn't "a separate issue" and, according to your logic, one
would never revisit a plot, or anything else, since, once done, it's
'inviolate'.

It's like colorizing Casablanca.

I understand how you could make the analogy but it doesn't hold for a
number of reason with not the least being 'colorizing', quite frankly,
stinks. There is also a 'creative' argument that the film maker
intentionally used lighting and other means to create mood and effect
particular to the medium.

Go ahead and clean up noise, and even clean up the rectangular glow of the
photomask around shuttlecraft, but let the engines sparkle the same way they
always did. Also let the planets look featureless and cloudy. It's not
unreal that way, and certainly doesn't look "bad".

You put your argument in deep do-do in now 'qualifying' which flaws
and failings you 'allow' to be improved.

Frankly, I agree that not every "oh wow that'll look cool" need, or
should, be done but while I also nitpick individual choices I am
willing to look at the whole result and not discard it simply because
not every last single jot and detail isn't the way I'd have done it.

That, btw, is why I wasn't inclined to get into a tit for tat over
'selected' props and effects.

Just to avoid misunderstanding, I never said TNG was 'better' than TOS
and, in fact, said that TNG, IMO, never reached the quality of TOS and
railed about 'Captain' Picard, among other things. To me the
characters and plot are much more important than, as one example,
whether the planet killer is CGI or remains a painted overlay drug
across the background with stars occasionally showing through the
"solid neutronium' hull.

The Doomsday Machine, btw, is another of my all time favorites with
what is arguably the best mental breakdown scene ever done by William
Windom portraying Commodore Matt Decker who's lost his entire crew.

DECKER: We tried to contact Starfleet. No one heard. No one! We
couldn't run.

KIRK: What happened to your crew?

DECKER: Oh, I had to beam them down. We were dead. No power, our
phasers useless. I stayed behind, the last man. Captain, last man
aboard the ship. That's what you're supposed to do, isn't it? And then
it hit again and the transporter went out. They were down there, and
I'm up here.

KIRK: What hit? What attacked you?

DECKER: They say there's no devil, Jim, but there is. Right out of
hell, I saw it.

KIRK: Matt, where's your crew?

DECKER: On the third planet.

KIRK: There is no third planet.

DECKER: Don't you think I know that? There was, but not any more. They
called me. They begged me for help, four hundred of them. I couldn't.
I couldn't. (breaks down in tears)

Next best scene is Kirk countering Decker's order to turn and attack,
"not with MY ship you don't," and the subsequent show down after he
orders Spock to relieve Decker and assume command.

It's so 'Kirk'.

I think they did a pretty good job in the CGI remaster.

It is rather silly to argue, though, that Gene Roddenberry preferred
'outdated/primitive' special effects, or that he was trying to
'creatively' convey anything other than 'realism', and would chose
them over the newer, and especially so since he was involved in not
only the, for the period, 'modernized' TOS movies but was in control
of the creation and first season of TNG you are arguing is 'not
better'.

I don't think he would have exercised that kind of control over how fx was
done. I'm sure he paid more attention to scripts, and they stank in the
first season.

Seems you consider Gene Roddenberry not only useless for 'trek
universe imagery' in model and effects but a down right liability for
plot and script.

Did he undergo a lobotomy between TOS and TNG?

I think Gene would be tickled to death with the 'remaster' and,
besides, no one is talking about wiping the originals from history.
But, should any one try, fear not as I have a DVD set with which we
can foil their nefarious plot.

Recordings are nice, but broadcast is always the main medium of a TV show.
I have all kinds of recordings but I hate to think that any of them is never
going to be broadcast again. There's a sense of community when you watch
something and others are watching it too.

As Scotty remarked about using a keyboard, "how quaint."

Do you also whip out a 1967 color TV for the proper viewing
experience?


I could. I still have my parent's 1967 Motorola Quasar color TV.


I'm mostly kidding but it's also true that effects and things were
done with limitations of the medium in mind, you know.

There is another where she goes 'the other way' and that's Mirror,
Mirror where they show the alternate reality by the ship flash
flipping directions, ending in the 'other universe' reverse.

Nope. That's the ISS Enterprise. I said USS Enterprise.


Yes, I know. Same producer, same special effects crew, same model. A
rose by any other name...

The "model" and the "ship" are not the same concept.

I am aware of that but we were talking special effects, orbit
direction, and the fan mythology about planet rotation.

flipper wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:33:20 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:14:53 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:52:50 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:43:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:12:30 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:32:49 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


snip

And the original series was described as 'Wagon train to the stars'.

Well, any analogy can be distorted out of context (as can mine).

Roddenberry wasn't suggesting the show was a 'sci-fi western'. He was
referring to the virtually limitless plot opportunities because, for
whatever thing you wish to deal with, the wagon train can 'just
happen' to pass/stop by the watering hole, fort, Indian encampment,
town, or where ever that's the situation. Need an out of control town
sheriff to make a point about law and order? Look out, there's one
just around the bend.


That's very convenient in any work of fiction.

True but "Green Acres" is set at "Green Acres" and Dr. Kildare doesn't
even make house calls (nice irony here as William Shatner won the
leading role and then declined).

Same with Star Trek. Want to make a statement about the irrationality
of race bigotry? What luck, two alien nut cases, Lokai and
Commissioner Beale, show up to illustrate the point. And, if you like,
everything can be 'the other guys failing', since we're past that sort
of thing, which sort of makes it Aesop's Wagon Train to the Stars.


'Wagon Train to the Stars' was how it was pitched to Desilu Studios,
the studio that produced the show.

Yes, that's what we're talking about.

Westerns were still popular,

Which is why there was a show called "Wagon Train" with which to make
the analogy. Calling it "Mr Ed to the stars" just wouldn't have
worked.


If Mr Ed had been a ddonkey, and they started with TNG, it would have
been approproiate.

Well, Francis the talking mule came before Mr Ed.

If he had been making it a mercenary starship he might have pitched it
as "Have Gun Will Travel to the stars."


It was pitched as exploration, like the early settlers in the Western
Territories. You had to be armed for defense.

Yep. There are a lot of 'similarities', which made it a fairly good
pitch analogy.

Vietnam was in the news
daily, and no studio would have bought that concept.

Moot since it wasn't a mercenary concept anyway nor was that
Roddenberry's vision of the future.

Really, now, what do you think his pitch meant? That there'd be horses
pulling the Enterprise from planet to planet?


Why would it have to be horses? Wagons were pulled by other animals,
as well..

I think the question applies regardless of the animal pulling
Enterprise

A good pitch puts things in terms the audience can understand and
"wagon train to the stars" does that.


The 'pitch' was to Desi and Lucy, a singer and a comedieane

Are you trying to suggest they were incapable of understanding the
show Wagon Train?


No. They were busy with their shows, and running the studios. they
didn't have a lot of spare time to pour through scripts and spend days
or weeks discussing a project.

I think that applies to any studio, plus likely being accosted by
scores of folks trying to pitch their own 'great idea' for a new TV
show.

Well, I don't mean they're all run by actors, I mean they're busy.

In any case, it worked well for them.

My take is it was not only serendipitous that Wagon Train existed, and
popular, but pretty darn good thinking on Gene's part to use it.


Roddenberry had already written scripts for other series, when he
pitched Star Trek. That was likely the biggest thing he had going for
him.

Is there a point somewhere?


Yes. That gave him access to people in the business, that an
outsider wouldn't have. He may have still got someone to listen and to
make the series but it could have been many years later, and with
whoever the production company chose to redo the concept.

flipper wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:35:42 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:

Newer methods don't necessarily look more real.

In the first place I said more 'modern' and it doesn't matter how
'well made' or 'realistic' a 1960's das blinken lighten mit switchen
worken computer prop looks as it's still a 1960's das blinken lighten
mit switchen worken computer and not, by modern standards, a very
'futuristic' looking device. I say by modern standards because what we
currently think looks 'futuristic' will, no doubt, seem archaic long
before the first warp nacelle is made.

I see, but I never cared about that because it can never look modern enough.
Any improvements in our lifetime are insignificant steps.


You're myopically obsessed with what you deem 'glaring faults' but
blind to the whole.

I'm not sure what that means.


but TOS
definitely looked better to me than early TNG.

There's no accounting for taste but I suspect you 'prefer' what you
were 'used to'.

Maybe, but I've see lots of NASA footage, and the effect of lighting (I
think it's due to lighting) in TOS looks closer to that.



And even if it did look better the
original should be left alone.

It would appear you have a hidden agenda clouding your judgment.

It's not a cloud - it's a separate issue. You could make fx in
lots of classic movies look more real, but shouldn't.

It clearly isn't "a separate issue" and, according to your logic, one
would never revisit a plot, or anything else, since, once done, it's
'inviolate'.

That's not my logic at all. I just want it to remain looking as it was
intended. What looks better is separate from that.


It's like colorizing Casablanca.

I understand how you could make the analogy but it doesn't hold
for a number of reason with not the least being 'colorizing',
quite frankly, stinks. There is also a 'creative' argument that
the film maker intentionally used lighting and other means to
create mood and effect particular to the medium.

Go ahead and clean up noise, and even clean up the rectangular glow
of the photomask around shuttlecraft, but let the engines sparkle
the same way they always did. Also let the planets look
featureless and cloudy. It's not unreal that way, and certainly
doesn't look "bad".

You put your argument in deep do-do in now 'qualifying' which flaws
and failings you 'allow' to be improved.

I'm not opposed to cleaning up noise in Casablanca. Removing photographic
defects is as far as I would go. It's a question of what they intended.


Frankly, I agree that not every "oh wow that'll look cool" need, or
should, be done but while I also nitpick individual choices I am
willing to look at the whole result and not discard it simply because
not every last single jot and detail isn't the way I'd have done it.

That, btw, is why I wasn't inclined to get into a tit for tat over
'selected' props and effects.

The specifics I pointed to were meant to be examples of some general points,
which I guess boil down to...

....don't make anything appear different from what was intended.
....TNG had a bigger budget, but often looked like they weren't trying.


Just to avoid misunderstanding, I never said TNG was 'better' than TOS
and, in fact, said that TNG, IMO, never reached the quality of TOS and
railed about 'Captain' Picard, among other things. To me the
characters and plot are much more important than, as one example,
whether the planet killer is CGI or remains a painted overlay drug
across the background with stars occasionally showing through the
"solid neutronium' hull.

That would also be an example of what I think could be fixed.


The Doomsday Machine, btw, is another of my all time favorites with
what is arguably the best mental breakdown scene ever done by William
Windom portraying Commodore Matt Decker who's lost his entire crew.

Did you see the SciFi channel broadcast with the interviews? He said he
used to resent Trekkies, but came to appreciate that they were the only
people who remembered anything he did.


Seems you consider Gene Roddenberry not only useless for 'trek
universe imagery' in model and effects but a down right liability for
plot and script.

His TOS scripts were not the best either.


Did he undergo a lobotomy between TOS and TNG?

He obviously became a lot more PC, so maybe.


Do you also whip out a 1967 color TV for the proper viewing
experience?

I would if I could.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

flipper wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:09:19 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:25:47 -0700,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:41:18 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 23:24:18 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


flipper wrote:
I see. Strange but I'm still drawing a total blank other than the
visual.

Hear attachment.

Thanks.


I was probably disappointed by the predictability of it all by that
point.

But it was a lot more "cerebral" than Skynet.

Skynet wanted to kill us. Colossus wanted to serve us by enslaving us.

Yeah, like Norman and his android pals. Although, there's an obvious
up side to being 'enslaved' by the Alice series, or the Annabelle
series, or the Trudy series, or build one to taste.

But there was only one Helen O'loy.

Which is why Dave could love her and Spock hated Alice 210.

SPOCK: I love you. However, I hate you.
ALICE 210: But I'm identical in every way with Alice Twenty Seven.
SPOCK: Yes, of course. That is exactly why I hate you. Because you are
identical.

Another good episode although, these days, I'm sure the courts would
consider leaving Harry with 500 android copies of his incessantly
nagging wife Stella cruel and unusual punishment.


That would depend on how many of the judge's relatives had been
conned by Harry.

Possibly but, then, Harry doesn't seem to have had a lot of luck with
judges, with the last offering him the choice of execution.


Some people get all the breaks. ;-)

flipper wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

flipper wrote:

Do you also whip out a 1967 color TV for the proper viewing
experience?


I could. I still have my parent's 1967 Motorola Quasar color TV.

Me too. I still have an old RCA 13 inch. All the 'modern' ones died.


The Quasar still works, even though it was hit by lightning three
different times. Each time it lost the RF preamp in the VHF tuner.
Other than a new CRT when it was nine years old, it saw a lot of service
without any other problems. I converted a similar Quasar console into a
video monitor back in the late '70s for my shop.

flipper wrote:

I knew what *that* one meant. What I meant is was there a point
somewhere to bringing up his 'pitch' in the first place because all
these little tit for tats aren't going anywhere.

There's no doubt a 'rep' helps one get in the door but that's neither
here nor there to the merits of a pitch.


There are businesses that won't even acknowledge that you're alive,
without a reputation.

flipper wrote:

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:47:35 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:09:19 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:25:47 -0700,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:41:18 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 23:24:18 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote:


flipper wrote:
I see. Strange but I'm still drawing a total blank other than the
visual.

Hear attachment.

Thanks.


I was probably disappointed by the predictability of it all by that
point.

But it was a lot more "cerebral" than Skynet.

Skynet wanted to kill us. Colossus wanted to serve us by enslaving us.

Yeah, like Norman and his android pals. Although, there's an obvious
up side to being 'enslaved' by the Alice series, or the Annabelle
series, or the Trudy series, or build one to taste.

But there was only one Helen O'loy.

Which is why Dave could love her and Spock hated Alice 210.

SPOCK: I love you. However, I hate you.
ALICE 210: But I'm identical in every way with Alice Twenty Seven.
SPOCK: Yes, of course. That is exactly why I hate you. Because you are
identical.

Another good episode although, these days, I'm sure the courts would
consider leaving Harry with 500 android copies of his incessantly
nagging wife Stella cruel and unusual punishment.


That would depend on how many of the judge's relatives had been
conned by Harry.

Possibly but, then, Harry doesn't seem to have had a lot of luck with
judges, with the last offering him the choice of execution.


Some people get all the breaks. ;-)

Well, when you think about it Harry escaped only to be, essentially,
'imprisoned' by the androids.

Good fun show, though. I was especially fond of, after one of Spock's
typically 'logical' comments, Harry's reply: "Spock, you're going to
love it here. They all talk just the way you do."


That would be the perfect place for dimbulb.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:13:17 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:07:33 -0700,
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:52:14 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:05:06 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"flipper" wrote in message
m...
Well, as it turned out, the 'store' code with that relative addressing
mode was '0' and if the offset was '0' and you had '0' in the register
then it stored 0 in the next location and then executed that 0, which
did the same thing, storing another 0 in the next location, which it
then executed, which....

It simply zipped as fast as it could go perpetually writing zeroes
through all of memory over and over till you hit HALT. Mystery solved.

Yuck. It's pretty common to set 00000000b as NOP.

Well, I didn't design the thing

Although, now that you mention it, that makes me wonder if 0 as NOP
might be a 'solid state' era thing where one imagines memory powers up
0, but core memory has no such predilection.

I say "imagine" because another company I worked for got bit by
assuming that, as well as what turned out to be poor programming. They
slapped a 'code' to set end of buffer or something, I forget what, and
figured alternating ones and zeroes was reasonable.

They were using CMOS static RAMs and the dern machine went nuts when a
certain manufacturer's SRAMs were installed.

I swear it's true, the stuff powered up with the same alternating ones
and zeroes pattern in every memory location.

Other manufacturer's same part number might power up with top 4 bits
zero and bottom 4 bits 1s while others had a different pattern but
there always was one and it turned out that the manufacturing process
(layout) determined which would be 1s and 0s.

Then there was the time memory write/read diagnostics passed with no
RAM installed. LOL

In fact, I took
advantage of this the first time I ever got out a Z80-CPU to play with: I
wired it as an extremely inefficient 16-bit counter. Control lines pulled
up, D0-D7 = 00h, address lines open, LED on A15 to indicate operation.

Incidentially, I did a lot of playing with that thing without the luxury
of an oscilloscope or logic analyzer (being in my dorm room at the time).
That might be troublesome, but I just hooked a wire from breadboard to my
audio mixer and listened.

Clever idea.

Making computers play tunes by hooking up a speaker to an assigned
register bit has been done at least since the middle 1960s. I think
the technique dates back to the earliest computers (at least if the
documents are to be trusted). Certainly putting one or more bits into
a DAC and then amplified for a speaker or headphone dates back that
far.

Are you suggesting they weren't clever?

I am suggesting that you overrated the use of the technique.

Loops buzz or whine. Multilevel loops buzz and click. Data processing
has a variety of multimode sounds, resembling FM synth with squarewaves
depending on what's being done. I wrote a 32 bit LFSR, which is indeed a
very effective source of white noise. I also wrote a tone generator,
which made something more harmonious than bus noises.

Speaking of which, I took the same tone generator code, ported it to the
AVR, and loaded the same data file:
http://myweb.msoe.edu/williamstm/Solfeg_Fast.mp3
Oops...... Z80 ran at 4MHz, AVR at 8 ;-)

Tim

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:42:54 -0500, Dan wrote:

JosephKK wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:12:26 -0500, Dan wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:53:42 -0500, Dan wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:27:03 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:39:48 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
I really liked the PDP-11 and have one of the 'micro' versions.

John


I really liked the HP 2114A. The teletype I could do without now, but
I was used to it from timeshare days. The system we used had a tower
with a desk on the left for the TTY. The tower included and optical tape
reader, optical card reader which used cards one marked with a pencil,
the 2114A and a storage drawer with a hand held rewinder for longer
tapes. I can find pictures of the 2114A, but not the entire system.

I took a tour of Digital's Maynard facility and was impressed with
the PDP-12. Having used the PDP-8S, where the S stood for SLOW,
LOL. Yes, it's 1 bit serial ALU was deadly slow but it was also a lot
cheaper at $10k vs $25k for the 'fast' fellah.

In one of my EE courses we designed some interfaces for the PDP-8,
which was very simple to do so we spend most of the time playing
spacewar on it. hehe

That's the way to play a 'computer game', boy. Down in the bowels of a
computer lab with scopes, racks, and hardware scattered about so it
looks like you're doing something 'technical'.

the
PDP-12 with a CRT seemed wonderful.
A bit quirky, though. I'll take a PDP-11 any day.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
I typed my MIT Bachelor's Thesis onto paper tape, using the
flexowriter input to a PDP-8. I think I still have the paper tape
around here somewhere... 48 years later ;-)

(Fellow classmate and PDP-8 hacker Alan Kotok (later a significant
digital architect at DEC, deceased May 26, 2006) and I were good
buddies and members of the model railroad club :-)

...Jim Thompson
Computers and model trains? Egad, not live steam, I hope.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Electric, HO and (IIRC) TT gauge. Occupied two rooms in MIT's
infamous (but now replaced) all-WWII-wood-construction Building 20.

However, here in AZ, we have a reduced-scale live-steam train at
McCormick-Stillman Railroad Park, Scottsdale.

...Jim Thompson
I'm in the process of building a live steam Pennsylvania switcher in
3/4" scale, 3.5 gauge track.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Yowzer! Go man go. Send photos.

At the rate I'm going it will be another 2 years.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Cool, progress photos. We get a chance to see the innards maybe?

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 08:53:57 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:23:58 -0700,
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:29:46 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:28:36 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:13:09 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:07:20 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip

I imagine IBM didn't think that kind of mythology fit the 'IBM
culture'. Plus, their 'not computer savvy' customers probably didn't
want 'crazy computer brains' taking over their companies, or the whole
country. And don't tell me it can't happen because I saw Colossus: The
Forbin Project (1970) and one of those damn things drive Wally Cox
crazy in a Twilight Zone episode (From Agnes - with Love [1964])

I liked "Colossus, The Forbin Project" when it came out.

Yeah, me too. Although, I knew it "was over" about 5 minutes into the
thing when they caved to the first challenge.

Then I
started analyzing it and figured out numerous was to sabotage the
system. The funny thing is at that time neither computer would have
operated very long without repair.

Well, we could propose a number of theories to get around that but
trying to get movies or TV 'scientifically accurate' is worse than
pushing a wet noodle uphill. That just isn't 'the direction' they're
interested in going.

Of course, the biggest flaw in most of them is no one in their right
mind would make a computer/robot with NO freaking OFF switch.

They at least got that part sort of right with Star Trek's M5. There
was *supposed* to be an 'off switch' but the loony computer 'protected
itself'. An obvious design flaw

Kind of fun watching Kirk out psych it, though.

I did greatly enjoy the series' multiple forays into 'logic' but if
*I* were Nomad Kirk would have lost the debate.

One of my favorites was a meaningless byline to the plot in Star Trek,
the original series, "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" (1967) where the computer
keeps calling Kirk "dear." As Spock explained, the computer system had
been 'repaired' on a planet dominated by women and they felt it lacked
a 'personality'. So they gave it one. Female, of course.

It also has an unfortunate tendency to giggle.

I prefer the voice of HAL.

Oh, yes. I loved HAL.

"Look, Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly
think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think
things over."

At least he didn't have the chugga-chugga
sounds every time he had to process something.

Hehe. Yeah, well, it was 1967. The 'computer' needed to sound like a
'machine', or so they thought. That's still the era where you know
you're getting 'timely news' because they have TTYs going clackety
clackety in the background.

Star Trek is certainly dated but I remember thinking, at the time,
that the beeps and blips the control buttons, communicator, etc, made
was a stroke of genius, while my parents thought it was down right
silly.

Of course, just about everything 'beeps' these days.

The Colossus voice was
downright creepy.

I don't really remember it.


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Playing on local talk radio right now:

Talk radio? Interesting place to put it.


We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof and
incapable of error... error... error... error... error... error...
error... error...

The HAL 9000 series were not known for an abundance of modesty

There's a really good Isaac Asimov 'robot' short story, Little Lost
Robot, that kicks off with a similar problem: a 1'st law 'modified'
robot that's arrogant as hell. And after royally ****ing off an
engineer that's had a bad day the engineer tells him to get lost,
which the robot does (2'nd law).

The rest of the story is trying to find the (not entirely stable)
'lost' robot and ends with a 'logic' contest between Susan Calvin,
robo-psychologist, and the robot.

Wait a minute, wasn't it Blake and partner that did the
troubleshooting?

Penton and Blake were characters by John Campbell.

Part of the original collection of shorts in the book "I, Robot".

You may be thinking of Powell and Donovan in Runaround, which is in
the I, Robot collection.

Interesting that you mention that collection because Asimov wrote a
framing sequence for it presenting the stories as Dr. Susan Calvin's
reminiscences about her life's work.

Little lost Robot, that I referenced, is in that collection too. I
also have, or had, "The Rest of the Robots." I say have or had because
I used to loan them out but none ever returned so I stopped doing that
and I don't remember if the last time I bought it was before or after
I quit.

I think i have a complete set with a few spares. I quickly switched
to buying another (used) copy (or three) for a loaning out; they so
often never came back and were forgotten.

Actually, they're all good and Isaac Asimov's robot series is my all
time favorite science fiction.

I can see your point, even (especially) when he crossed it with his
foundation series. Which is of the same stature.

Well, I may be biased because I've always been interested in computers
*and* A.I., not to mention logic, so they naturally tickle all three
of my funny bones.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:31:08 -0400, JW wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400 "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote in Message id:
:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

That?

It seems that you sussed the key.

JosephKK wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).


I wasn't reading MAD magazine back then. I spent all my money on
electronics books and parts.

JosephKK wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

JosephKK wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.
Crick. One more person rat noticed.

????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).

Rather like when Mao told Nixon "bite my clank?"

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

flipper wrote:

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:50:58 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

flipper wrote:

Do you also whip out a 1967 color TV for the proper viewing
experience?


I could. I still have my parent's 1967 Motorola Quasar color TV.

Me too. I still have an old RCA 13 inch. All the 'modern' ones died.


The Quasar still works, even though it was hit by lightning three
different times. Each time it lost the RF preamp in the VHF tuner.
Other than a new CRT when it was nine years old, it saw a lot of service
without any other problems. I converted a similar Quasar console into a
video monitor back in the late '70s for my shop.

I forgot, I've also got a 19" Emerson someone gave me.

The 'modern' ones invariable took damage to the micro controller,
making repair more than they were worth.


A lot of those failed, due to bad solder from what I've read.
Thompson Consumer Electronics was one of the worst, with their RCA and
other old line American corporate names.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

flipper wrote:

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:22:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
? wrote:

?
?flipper wrote:
??
?? On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:50:58 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
?? ? wrote:
??
?? ?
?? ?flipper wrote:
?? ??
?? ?? Michael A. Terrell wrote:
?? ?? ?
?? ?? ?flipper wrote:
?? ?? ??
?? ?? ?? Do you also whip out a 1967 color TV for the proper viewing
?? ?? ?? experience?
?? ?? ?
?? ?? ?
?? ?? ? I could. I still have my parent's 1967 Motorola Quasar color TV.
?? ??
?? ?? Me too. I still have an old RCA 13 inch. All the 'modern' ones died.
?? ?
?? ?
?? ? The Quasar still works, even though it was hit by lightning three
?? ?different times. Each time it lost the RF preamp in the VHF tuner.
?? ?Other than a new CRT when it was nine years old, it saw a lot of service
?? ?without any other problems. I converted a similar Quasar console into a
?? ?video monitor back in the late '70s for my shop.
??
?? I forgot, I've also got a 19" Emerson someone gave me.
??
?? The 'modern' ones invariable took damage to the micro controller,
?? making repair more than they were worth.
?
?
? A lot of those failed, due to bad solder from what I've read.
?Thompson Consumer Electronics was one of the worst, with their RCA and
?other old line American corporate names.

Hmm. Well, that's an interesting thought as I still have at least one
of them in storage so I might give it a gander.

I have an old Sony 'Home Theater' receiver that supposedly suffers
from poor solder joints so I did a shotgun on it and while it worked
perfectly fine for a while the 'protection' circuit, I presume, is
back to turning off the front speakers after some indeterminate time
for no observable reason.

I hate that kind of crap because you just *know* as soon as you rip it
apart the thing will work again... until you put it back together.


A bottle of good RMA flux and a hot iron can bring them back from the
dead.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

flipper wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

flipper wrote:

I hate that kind of crap because you just *know* as soon as you rip it
apart the thing will work again... until you put it back together.


A bottle of good RMA flux and a hot iron can bring them back from the
dead.

Which 'them' do you mean? The Sony or the TV?


Both. Cracked solder joints are a huge problem in consumer grade
electronics, and lead free solder is making it even more of a problem.


Bad memory on my part, though. The one 27" TV I have left is a handed
down Sanyo and the problem is no vertical. Classic dead center
horizontal line.


Check for open electrolytics in the vertical circuit. You can ask on
news:sci.electronics.repair for more information, if you give the brand
and model.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:06:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).


I wasn't reading MAD magazine back then. I spent all my money on
electronics books and parts.

Minor oops on my part twas more like 50 years ago. By 1965 much of my
spare money was going to parts. I had designed a stereo preamp and
built it, dual concentric pots for all controls of that type, mag
phono, tuner and aux with tape loop three band Baxandall tone controls
and headphone amplifier (15 V regulated rails, direct coupled and
uA741 based). Hey, i still have the second generation unit done about
1972 i owe someone here documentation of the headphone amp. I hit
high school after i built it.

When i find it i will send photos and schematics (may have to reverse
engineer it).

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:12:53 -0500, Dan wrote:

JosephKK wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

JosephKK wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.
Crick. One more person rat noticed.

????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).

Rather like when Mao told Nixon "bite my clank?"

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I tink to.

JosephKK wrote:

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:06:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).


I wasn't reading MAD magazine back then. I spent all my money on
electronics books and parts.

Minor oops on my part twas more like 50 years ago. By 1965 much of my
spare money was going to parts. I had designed a stereo preamp and
built it, dual concentric pots for all controls of that type, mag
phono, tuner and aux with tape loop three band Baxandall tone controls
and headphone amplifier (15 V regulated rails, direct coupled and
uA741 based). Hey, i still have the second generation unit done about
1972 i owe someone here documentation of the headphone amp. I hit
high school after i built it.

When i find it i will send photos and schematics (may have to reverse
engineer it).


I was in grade school 50 years ago, but that was the year I built my
first transistor radio.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Sun, 05 Sep 2010 21:01:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:06:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).


I wasn't reading MAD magazine back then. I spent all my money on
electronics books and parts.

Minor oops on my part twas more like 50 years ago. By 1965 much of my
spare money was going to parts. I had designed a stereo preamp and
built it, dual concentric pots for all controls of that type, mag
phono, tuner and aux with tape loop three band Baxandall tone controls
and headphone amplifier (15 V regulated rails, direct coupled and
uA741 based). Hey, i still have the second generation unit done about
1972 i owe someone here documentation of the headphone amp. I hit
high school after i built it.

When i find it i will send photos and schematics (may have to reverse
engineer it).


I was in grade school 50 years ago, but that was the year I built my
first transistor radio.

I was just getting to high school.

JosephKK wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2010 21:01:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:06:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).


I wasn't reading MAD magazine back then. I spent all my money on
electronics books and parts.

Minor oops on my part twas more like 50 years ago. By 1965 much of my
spare money was going to parts. I had designed a stereo preamp and
built it, dual concentric pots for all controls of that type, mag
phono, tuner and aux with tape loop three band Baxandall tone controls
and headphone amplifier (15 V regulated rails, direct coupled and
uA741 based). Hey, i still have the second generation unit done about
1972 i owe someone here documentation of the headphone amp. I hit
high school after i built it.

When i find it i will send photos and schematics (may have to reverse
engineer it).


I was in grade school 50 years ago, but that was the year I built my
first transistor radio.

I was just getting to high school.


Are you sure it wasn't the other way around? ;-)


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:34:28 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2010 21:01:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:06:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).


I wasn't reading MAD magazine back then. I spent all my money on
electronics books and parts.

Minor oops on my part twas more like 50 years ago. By 1965 much of my
spare money was going to parts. I had designed a stereo preamp and
built it, dual concentric pots for all controls of that type, mag
phono, tuner and aux with tape loop three band Baxandall tone controls
and headphone amplifier (15 V regulated rails, direct coupled and
uA741 based). Hey, i still have the second generation unit done about
1972 i owe someone here documentation of the headphone amp. I hit
high school after i built it.

When i find it i will send photos and schematics (may have to reverse
engineer it).


I was in grade school 50 years ago, but that was the year I built my
first transistor radio.

I was just getting to high school.


Are you sure it wasn't the other way around? ;-)

A bit both ways i guess. I used to cuss about how tough my high
school years were, now i look at it as seriously stormy weather. Just
the same being social pariah is no fun.

JosephKK wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:34:28 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2010 21:01:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:06:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:31:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


JosephKK wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I learned to love books by reading Science Fiction as a child. My
bosses were always upset that my reports weren't fiction.

OTOH, some of the biggest fiction I've ever read were test
procedures, and how ISO-9001 'works'.

Crick. One more person rat noticed.


????????????????????????????????????????

Pseudo Japanese accent. Kinda like MAD magazine (40 years ago).


I wasn't reading MAD magazine back then. I spent all my money on
electronics books and parts.

Minor oops on my part twas more like 50 years ago. By 1965 much of my
spare money was going to parts. I had designed a stereo preamp and
built it, dual concentric pots for all controls of that type, mag
phono, tuner and aux with tape loop three band Baxandall tone controls
and headphone amplifier (15 V regulated rails, direct coupled and
uA741 based). Hey, i still have the second generation unit done about
1972 i owe someone here documentation of the headphone amp. I hit
high school after i built it.

When i find it i will send photos and schematics (may have to reverse
engineer it).


I was in grade school 50 years ago, but that was the year I built my
first transistor radio.

I was just getting to high school.


Are you sure it wasn't the other way around? ;-)

A bit both ways i guess. I used to cuss about how tough my high
school years were, now i look at it as seriously stormy weather. Just
the same being social pariah is no fun.


Maybe, but it got me out of a lot of classes when something went
wrong at the school.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.