Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.

On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.

That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.

That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.

That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
It does not matter what the designation given to a bandgap based
regulator is; what matters is how it may (or may not, depending on
temperature) work.
The various bandgap based regulators run from low power microamp to
"power hog" multi-milliamp specs.
A few act-up like that shown, others show hysteresis and oscillation
as temp goes up, some show more "leakage" before regulation, etc & etc.
No one "class" (eg: low power) has an "edge" on another - no matter
what that so-called edge may be (goofiness at high temp).
Methinks i mentioned that the particular TL431s should be carefully
tested with a curve tracer.

On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:44:22 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.

That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
It does not matter what the designation given to a bandgap based
regulator is; what matters is how it may (or may not, depending on
temperature) work.
The various bandgap based regulators run from low power microamp to
"power hog" multi-milliamp specs.
A few act-up like that shown, others show hysteresis and oscillation
as temp goes up, some show more "leakage" before regulation, etc & etc.
No one "class" (eg: low power) has an "edge" on another - no matter
what that so-called edge may be (goofiness at high temp).
Methinks i mentioned that the particular TL431s should be carefully
tested with a curve tracer.

Believe what you like. From '77 to '87 I used (TI) TL431 by the
bucket load. NEVER had a single failure.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:44:22 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.
That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
It does not matter what the designation given to a bandgap based
regulator is; what matters is how it may (or may not, depending on
temperature) work.
The various bandgap based regulators run from low power microamp to
"power hog" multi-milliamp specs.
A few act-up like that shown, others show hysteresis and oscillation
as temp goes up, some show more "leakage" before regulation, etc & etc.
No one "class" (eg: low power) has an "edge" on another - no matter
what that so-called edge may be (goofiness at high temp).
Methinks i mentioned that the particular TL431s should be carefully
tested with a curve tracer.

Believe what you like. From '77 to '87 I used (TI) TL431 by the
bucket load. NEVER had a single failure.

...Jim Thompson
It is not a matter of believing.
The TI version of the TL431 is fairly decent above 160C but i met you
never ran any of those you used even above 125C.
There has been at least one company and one product / type that
exhibits the "peak" as i have shown (my "belief" surely did not create
those curves).
Other products get goofy in other ways - but usually above 160C.

On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:20:03 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:44:22 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.
That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
It does not matter what the designation given to a bandgap based
regulator is; what matters is how it may (or may not, depending on
temperature) work.
The various bandgap based regulators run from low power microamp to
"power hog" multi-milliamp specs.
A few act-up like that shown, others show hysteresis and oscillation
as temp goes up, some show more "leakage" before regulation, etc & etc.
No one "class" (eg: low power) has an "edge" on another - no matter
what that so-called edge may be (goofiness at high temp).
Methinks i mentioned that the particular TL431s should be carefully
tested with a curve tracer.

Believe what you like. From '77 to '87 I used (TI) TL431 by the
bucket load. NEVER had a single failure.

...Jim Thompson
It is not a matter of believing.
The TI version of the TL431 is fairly decent above 160C but i met you
never ran any of those you used even above 125C.
There has been at least one company and one product / type that
exhibits the "peak" as i have shown (my "belief" surely did not create
those curves).
Other products get goofy in other ways - but usually above 160C.

Why this hair up your butt about 160°C?

It's way above the operating range of the part. The only time I EVER
had parts subjected to that kind of temperature was by my favorite
customer, Schlumberger, who "down-holed" my hybrid assembly (Dickson
Electronics) alpha-particle detector device, pulled it up and tossed
it... and bought more. I asked for throw-away's for evaluation...
discolored gold plating was all I could discern ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:20:03 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:44:22 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.
That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
It does not matter what the designation given to a bandgap based
regulator is; what matters is how it may (or may not, depending on
temperature) work.
The various bandgap based regulators run from low power microamp to
"power hog" multi-milliamp specs.
A few act-up like that shown, others show hysteresis and oscillation
as temp goes up, some show more "leakage" before regulation, etc & etc.
No one "class" (eg: low power) has an "edge" on another - no matter
what that so-called edge may be (goofiness at high temp).
Methinks i mentioned that the particular TL431s should be carefully
tested with a curve tracer.
Believe what you like. From '77 to '87 I used (TI) TL431 by the
bucket load. NEVER had a single failure.

...Jim Thompson
It is not a matter of believing.
The TI version of the TL431 is fairly decent above 160C but i met you
never ran any of those you used even above 125C.
There has been at least one company and one product / type that
exhibits the "peak" as i have shown (my "belief" surely did not create
those curves).
Other products get goofy in other ways - but usually above 160C.

Why this hair up your butt about 160°C?

It's way above the operating range of the part. The only time I EVER
had parts subjected to that kind of temperature was by my favorite
customer, Schlumberger, who "down-holed" my hybrid assembly (Dickson
Electronics) alpha-particle detector device, pulled it up and tossed
it... and bought more. I asked for throw-away's for evaluation...
discolored gold plating was all I could discern ;-)

...Jim Thompson
Well, when one wants to design electronics to run reliably to 200C,
and finds a goodly number of parts that start to fail near 160C, then
that failure point becomes interesting.
I certainly did not make up that value out of thin air...

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 01:24:43 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:


Well, when one wants to design electronics to run reliably to 200C,
and finds a goodly number of parts that start to fail near 160C, then
that failure point becomes interesting.
I certainly did not make up that value out of thin air...

If you want reliable operation at those temperatures you shouldnt even
be looking at TL431,unless they make a milatary grade one or a custom
component. The operating range is -40 TO 125C.

If your pushing a shunt regulator to those temp even in an elavated
ambient temperature( 70-80C) maybe it's time to look at linear T0220
OR switcher.

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 01:24:43 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:20:03 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:44:22 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Samples of the "N" peak in a shunt regulator attached.
That's NOT a TL431, nor is 171° remotely in the specified range of
operation.

...Jim Thompson
It does not matter what the designation given to a bandgap based
regulator is; what matters is how it may (or may not, depending on
temperature) work.
The various bandgap based regulators run from low power microamp to
"power hog" multi-milliamp specs.
A few act-up like that shown, others show hysteresis and oscillation
as temp goes up, some show more "leakage" before regulation, etc & etc.
No one "class" (eg: low power) has an "edge" on another - no matter
what that so-called edge may be (goofiness at high temp).
Methinks i mentioned that the particular TL431s should be carefully
tested with a curve tracer.
Believe what you like. From '77 to '87 I used (TI) TL431 by the
bucket load. NEVER had a single failure.

...Jim Thompson
It is not a matter of believing.
The TI version of the TL431 is fairly decent above 160C but i met you
never ran any of those you used even above 125C.
There has been at least one company and one product / type that
exhibits the "peak" as i have shown (my "belief" surely did not create
those curves).
Other products get goofy in other ways - but usually above 160C.

Why this hair up your butt about 160°C?

It's way above the operating range of the part. The only time I EVER
had parts subjected to that kind of temperature was by my favorite
customer, Schlumberger, who "down-holed" my hybrid assembly (Dickson
Electronics) alpha-particle detector device, pulled it up and tossed
it... and bought more. I asked for throw-away's for evaluation...
discolored gold plating was all I could discern ;-)

...Jim Thompson
Well, when one wants to design electronics to run reliably to 200C,
and finds a goodly number of parts that start to fail near 160C, then
that failure point becomes interesting.
I certainly did not make up that value out of thin air...

Use all discretes.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food