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** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.



..... Phil




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Phil Allison wrote:

** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.

.... Phil

[Image]


Pretty.

Can't use 4mm / banana plugs in the EU any more though.

Graham


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HiggsField wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote:

** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.


Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
to HUGE capacitance levels.


Since when did an audiophool care about mere science ?

Graham


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On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 14:09:16 -0700, HiggsField
wrote:

:On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:21:12 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:
:
:
:
:** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.
:
:
:
:.... Phil
:
:
:
: Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
:to HUGE capacitance levels.

Overkill doesn't come into it, although it is a ridiculous cable construction.

It would be interesting to see a manufacturer spec sheet... it would probably
claim that the unique arrangement of 3 bundles of strands in each conductor
being interwoven with the adjacent conductor groups somehow cancelled out the
capacitance.

It would also be interesting to see what would happen if the insulation between
2 adjacent strands from each conductor group broke down. I don't know of any
coating used to insulate copper strands which is 100% guaranteed to remain
intact, especially where constant flexing occurs near the banana plugs. At least
someone thought to insulate one banana plug at each end with heatshrink.
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"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote:

** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.


Pretty.

Can't use 4mm / banana plugs in the EU any more though.



** Completely false.

It is only 3/4 inch (19mm) spaced pairs that are banned from use as speaker
connectors due to an unfortunate compatibility with this thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko



....... Phil







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"Ross Herbert"
HiggsField
"Phil Allison"

: Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
:to HUGE capacitance levels.



** Only a complete ****** would claim 1500 pF per metre is " HUGE" for a
speaker cable.

The aim is to reduce linear inductance so that means C must go up.


Overkill doesn't come into it, although it is a ridiculous cable
construction.



** What is so ridiculous about it ?

Can you come up with a better way to reduce or eliminate cable inductance?


It would be interesting to see a manufacturer spec sheet... it would
probably
claim that the unique arrangement of 3 bundles of strands in each
conductor
being interwoven with the adjacent conductor groups somehow cancelled out
the
capacitance.



** What pathetic, fabricated crapology.


It would also be interesting to see what would happen if the insulation
between
2 adjacent strands from each conductor group broke down. I don't know of
any
coating used to insulate copper strands which is 100% guaranteed to remain
intact, especially where constant flexing occurs near the banana plugs.



** There is simply no problem with insulation failure.

Why do smug fools have to go inventing problems that don't exist?


At least
someone thought to insulate one banana plug at each end with heatshrink.



** Solid metal plugs have that obvious problem.


....... Phil


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On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:57:04 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Ross Herbert"
HiggsField
"Phil Allison"

: Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
:to HUGE capacitance levels.



** Only a complete ****** would claim 1500 pF per metre is " HUGE" for a
speaker cable.

The aim is to reduce linear inductance so that means C must go up.


Overkill doesn't come into it, although it is a ridiculous cable
construction.



** What is so ridiculous about it ?

Can you come up with a better way to reduce or eliminate cable inductance?


I've used an easier one:

Start with a hunk of the MIL-spec stranded wire, #8 or #10 maybe, the
kind with the fine silver-plated strands and very thin-skin black
teflon insulation.

Stuff that inside a tubular woven copper braid. Pull the braid to
tighten it around the inner conductor, then finish with shrink tubing.
The result is homemade coax with a very thin dielectric, which
translates to very low inductance per unit length.

I've done this for driving longish (like 10 m) runs to NMR gradient
coils, where the cable L really matters. The improvement over other
constructions, like twisted pairs, is dramatic.


John



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On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:57:04 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

:
:"Ross Herbert"
: HiggsField
:"Phil Allison"
:
: : Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
: :to HUGE capacitance levels.
:
:
:** Only a complete ****** would claim 1500 pF per metre is " HUGE" for a
:speaker cable.
:
: The aim is to reduce linear inductance so that means C must go up.
:

Since you have the cable to measure then why didn't you state the capacitance in
the first place? I know it would be high capacitance and you are well aware of
some of the wild claims made by some manufacturers of speaker cables. My
conjecture was simply to reflect the type of claims made by some manufacturers
whether the claims are correct or not.

Do you have the manufacturer spec sheet Phil?
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On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 21:20:34 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

:On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:57:04 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:
:
:
:Can you come up with a better way to reduce or eliminate cable inductance?
:
:I've used an easier one:
:
:Start with a hunk of the MIL-spec stranded wire, #8 or #10 maybe, the
:kind with the fine silver-plated strands and very thin-skin black
:teflon insulation.
:
:Stuff that inside a tubular woven copper braid. Pull the braid to
:tighten it around the inner conductor, then finish with shrink tubing.
:The result is homemade coax with a very thin dielectric, which
:translates to very low inductance per unit length.
:
:I've done this for driving longish (like 10 m) runs to NMR gradient
:coils, where the cable L really matters. The improvement over other
:constructions, like twisted pairs, is dramatic.
:
:
:John
:
:

Sounds good to me.

Somewhat along these lines John?
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm
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"Ross Herbert"
"Phil Allison"
: HiggsField
:"Phil Allison"
:
: : Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would
lead
: :to HUGE capacitance levels.
:
:
:** Only a complete ****** would claim 1500 pF per metre is " HUGE" for a
:speaker cable.
:
: The aim is to reduce linear inductance so that means C must go up.
:

Since you have the cable to measure then why didn't you state the
capacitance in
the first place?



** Why didn't YOU go see the "uk.rec.audio" thread on the topic.
" LS Cables - Transmission Line vs Lumped Element "


I know it would be high capacitance and you are well aware of
some of the wild claims made by some manufacturers of speaker cables. My
conjecture was simply to reflect the type of claims made by some
manufacturers
whether the claims are correct or not.


** IOW - it was absolutely irrelevant ********.


Do you have the manufacturer spec sheet Phil?



** Go see:
" LS Cables - Transmission Line vs Lumped Element "

Then see the link in the first post.

BTW.

The cable exhibits NO capacitance when terminated by 8 ohms.



....... Phil




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On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 14:57:32 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


:
: ** Why didn't YOU go see the "uk.rec.audio" thread on the topic.
: " LS Cables - Transmission Line vs Lumped Element "
:
:
: I know it would be high capacitance and you are well aware of
: some of the wild claims made by some manufacturers of speaker cables. My
: conjecture was simply to reflect the type of claims made by some
: manufacturers
: whether the claims are correct or not.
:
:** IOW - it was absolutely irrelevant ********.
:
:
: Do you have the manufacturer spec sheet Phil?
:
:
:** Go see:
:" LS Cables - Transmission Line vs Lumped Element "
:
:Then see the link in the first post.

Thanks for the directions, it is an interesting read.

:
:BTW.
:
:The cable exhibits NO capacitance when terminated by 8 ohms.
:

No kidding....

BTW, I believe this cable goes back as far as the 70's and was also marketed as
Polk Cobra (and Monitor Audio as well). Referred to here under "identification"
paragraph. http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-SpkrCab.html

Some users even went to the trouble of paralleling up to 8 of these cables.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...es/127700.html

There was also a flat version as well but it was reputed by the "audiophiles" to
be not as good as the round version.
http://www.potlach.org/2008/06/cables/

I am sure you would be aware that many resellers of the cable had to remove it
from the market because it caused many amplifiers setups to blow up. Admittedly,
these susceptible amps may not have been unconditionally stable.

Also gets amention in Audiophile 40 years review. See number 100.
http://www.stereophile.com/features/709/
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"Ross Herbert"
"Phil Allison"

: Do you have the manufacturer spec sheet Phil?
:
:** Go see:

:" LS Cables - Transmission Line vs Lumped Element "
:
:Then see the link in the first post.

Thanks for the directions, it is an interesting read.

:
:BTW.
:
:The cable exhibits NO capacitance when terminated by 8 ohms.
:

No kidding....

BTW, I believe this cable goes back as far as the 70's and was also
marketed as
Polk Cobra (and Monitor Audio as well).



** The example seen in my pic is over 30 years old.

The "gold" banana plugs were recently fitted, though , so I can vouch for
their long term asset value.

Back in 1976, one paid a mere $2.70 per metre, off the roll.




...... Phil






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Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote:

** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.


Pretty.

Can't use 4mm / banana plugs in the EU any more though.


** Completely false.

It is only 3/4 inch (19mm) spaced pairs that are banned from use as speaker
connectors due to an unfortunate compatibility with this thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko


Indeed, but so the story goes, because a 4 mm plug can fit into a single pole
of one of those which may be the live one, they're banned anyway. At least
that's my information.

Graham

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Ross Herbert wrote:

HiggsFieldwrote:
"Phil Allison" wrote:

: Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
:to HUGE capacitance levels.

Overkill doesn't come into it, although it is a ridiculous cable construction.

It would be interesting to see a manufacturer spec sheet... it would probably
claim that the unique arrangement of 3 bundles of strands in each conductor
being interwoven with the adjacent conductor groups somehow cancelled out the
capacitance.

It would also be interesting to see what would happen if the insulation between
2 adjacent strands from each conductor group broke down. I don't know of any
coating used to insulate copper strands which is 100% guaranteed to remain
intact, especially where constant flexing occurs near the banana plugs. At least
someone thought to insulate one banana plug at each end with heatshrink.


Take a look at triple insulated wire. ( TEW). 3 layers of 'varnish' rated to 3kV or
so IIRC. Can be used in place of standard pri/sec insulation in transformers.

Graham


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"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote:

** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.

Pretty.

Can't use 4mm / banana plugs in the EU any more though.


** Completely false.

It is only 3/4 inch (19mm) spaced pairs that are banned from use as
speaker
connectors due to an unfortunate compatibility with this thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko



Indeed, but so the story goes, because a 4 mm plug can fit into a single
pole
of one of those which may be the live one, they're banned anyway.



** That is 100% ********.


At least that's my information.



** From where ???

Straight out your lying arse ?




...... Phil





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On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 04:37:06 GMT, Ross Herbert
wrote:

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 21:20:34 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

:On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:57:04 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:
:
:
:Can you come up with a better way to reduce or eliminate cable inductance?
:
:I've used an easier one:
:
:Start with a hunk of the MIL-spec stranded wire, #8 or #10 maybe, the
:kind with the fine silver-plated strands and very thin-skin black
:teflon insulation.
:
:Stuff that inside a tubular woven copper braid. Pull the braid to
:tighten it around the inner conductor, then finish with shrink tubing.
:The result is homemade coax with a very thin dielectric, which
:translates to very low inductance per unit length.
:
:I've done this for driving longish (like 10 m) runs to NMR gradient
:coils, where the cable L really matters. The improvement over other
:constructions, like twisted pairs, is dramatic.
:
:
:John
:
:

Sounds good to me.

Somewhat along these lines John?
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm


No. They show a thin inner conductor with thick insulation. Impedance
goes as the log of D/d, where D is the diameter of the shield and d is
the diameter of the inner conductor. So to make D/d approach 1 (and
impedance approach zero) the insulation must be as thin as possible
(which adds capacitance, of course.)

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.

John


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On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:17:31 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.


Didn't one of the electronics magazines once publish a series of A/B
comparisons of various ultra-expensive speaker cables against zero-guage
welding cable? As I recall, the 0 AWG pair performed better in both the
instrumental and listening tests than any of the audiosnob brands. Of
course, the expensive-is-always-better crowd countered that the cables
must be matched to the combination of amp, speaker and listening room.
One day, I'd like to see how a panel of audiosnobs would rate a _live_
performance heard through an opaque (but acoustically transparent)
curtain.
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On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 16:08:01 -0500, Phaedeaux
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:17:31 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.


Didn't one of the electronics magazines once publish a series of A/B
comparisons of various ultra-expensive speaker cables against zero-guage
welding cable? As I recall, the 0 AWG pair performed better in both the
instrumental and listening tests than any of the audiosnob brands. Of
course, the expensive-is-always-better crowd countered that the cables
must be matched to the combination of amp, speaker and listening room.
One day, I'd like to see how a panel of audiosnobs would rate a _live_
performance heard through an opaque (but acoustically transparent)
curtain.


About the only thing a speaker cable can do is add resistance (lowers
volume and can change speaker damping) or add inductance (attenuates
highs slightly, not generally audibly). Widely spaced pairs have more
inductance; an agressively bad design can hit something like 20
uH/meter.

12/2 Romex is about as good as anything.

Insane amounts of capacitance could make a bad amp oscillate, I
suppose.

The live performance test sounds funny. Since people are used to
ultra-processed, compressed, stereo-enhanced, uber-equalized and
multiply-mixed sound, they probably wouldn't like it.


John


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On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:57:04 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Ross Herbert"
HiggsField
"Phil Allison"

: Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
:to HUGE capacitance levels.



** Only a complete ****** would claim 1500 pF per metre is " HUGE" for a
speaker cable.

The aim is to reduce linear inductance so that means C must go up.


What's L per meter?

John



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Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote:

** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.

Pretty.

Can't use 4mm / banana plugs in the EU any more though.

** Completely false.

It is only 3/4 inch (19mm) spaced pairs that are banned from use as
speaker connectors due to an unfortunate compatibility with this thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko


Indeed, but so the story goes, because a 4 mm plug can fit into a single
pole of one of those which may be the live one, they're banned anyway.


** That is 100% ********.

At least that's my information.


** From where ???

Straight out your lying arse ?


From a safety consultant. It was WIDELY discussed Aeons ago. Have you not
noticed when binding posts are still fitted to amplifiers for EU use, the
central hole is 'bunged up' ? Just go look if you can.

Graham



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John Larkin wrote:

Ross Herbert wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
:"Phil Allison" wrote:
:
:Can you come up with a better way to reduce or eliminate cable inductance?
:
:I've used an easier one:
:
:Start with a hunk of the MIL-spec stranded wire, #8 or #10 maybe, the
:kind with the fine silver-plated strands and very thin-skin black
:teflon insulation.
:
:Stuff that inside a tubular woven copper braid. Pull the braid to
:tighten it around the inner conductor, then finish with shrink tubing.
:The result is homemade coax with a very thin dielectric, which
:translates to very low inductance per unit length.
:
:I've done this for driving longish (like 10 m) runs to NMR gradient
:coils, where the cable L really matters. The improvement over other
:constructions, like twisted pairs, is dramatic.

Sounds good to me.

Somewhat along these lines John?
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm


No. They show a thin inner conductor with thick insulation. Impedance
goes as the log of D/d, where D is the diameter of the shield and d is
the diameter of the inner conductor. So to make D/d approach 1 (and
impedance approach zero) the insulation must be as thin as possible
(which adds capacitance, of course.)


My thinking too. That looked more like heavy duty video cable.


The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.


No surprise there then.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.


It does to me. I like my music as perfect as possible.

Graham

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Phaedeaux wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.


Didn't one of the electronics magazines once publish a series of A/B
comparisons of various ultra-expensive speaker cables against zero-guage
welding cable? As I recall, the 0 AWG pair performed better in both the
instrumental and listening tests than any of the audiosnob brands. Of
course, the expensive-is-always-better crowd countered that the cables
must be matched to the combination of amp, speaker and listening room.
One day, I'd like to see how a panel of audiosnobs would rate a _live_
performance heard through an opaque (but acoustically transparent)
curtain.


About 30 years ago the reknowned UK pro recording magazine Studio Sound
conducted *scientific* tests of various loudspeaker cables (plus listening
tests). Heavy gauge house wiring cable of 4mm2 CSA came second out of 6-8
examples. I forget what bettered it. Probably 6mm2 house wiring cable
! ;~)

Graham


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John Larkin wrote:

Phaedeaux wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.


Didn't one of the electronics magazines once publish a series of A/B
comparisons of various ultra-expensive speaker cables against zero-guage
welding cable? As I recall, the 0 AWG pair performed better in both the
instrumental and listening tests than any of the audiosnob brands. Of
course, the expensive-is-always-better crowd countered that the cables
must be matched to the combination of amp, speaker and listening room.
One day, I'd like to see how a panel of audiosnobs would rate a _live_
performance heard through an opaque (but acoustically transparent)
curtain.


About the only thing a speaker cable can do is add resistance (lowers
volume and can change speaker damping) or add inductance (attenuates
highs slightly, not generally audibly). Widely spaced pairs have more
inductance; an agressively bad design can hit something like 20
uH/meter.


Which is why I rejected sucha pattern recently for an install. I assume it
had been made that way just to suit audiophool tastes.


12/2 Romex is about as good as anything.


See my other post !


Insane amounts of capacitance could make a bad amp oscillate, I
suppose.


And they DID in some cases. One amp maker went as far as to delete the usual
output inductor and rely on the cable ! They fried nicely with such cable.


The live performance test sounds funny. Since people are used to
ultra-processed, compressed, stereo-enhanced, uber-equalized and
multiply-mixed sound, they probably wouldn't like it.


Also possibly true. The all too common over-processing of sound these days is
the bete noire of the serious recordist.

Graham

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"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"


** Only a complete ****** would claim 1500 pF per metre is " HUGE" for a
speaker cable.

The aim is to reduce linear inductance so that means C must go up.


What's L per meter?



** 110nH.



...... Phil



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"John Larkin"

Somewhat along these lines John?

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm


No. They show a thin inner conductor with thick insulation.


** Try reading the text.

There is no "insulation"used.

The black layer is a carbon filled plastic = a conductor.


Impedance
goes as the log of D/d, where D is the diameter of the shield and d is
the diameter of the inner conductor. So to make D/d approach 1 (and
impedance approach zero) the insulation must be as thin as possible
(which adds capacitance, of course.)



** What if there is a conductive layer used ?

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.



** You have done tests on the stuff - right ??


But I suppose the wilder the lies,



** Err - like your ones here ??

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.



** Only to the deaf and the daft.




...... Phil




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On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:46:56 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



John Larkin wrote:

Phaedeaux wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.

Didn't one of the electronics magazines once publish a series of A/B
comparisons of various ultra-expensive speaker cables against zero-guage
welding cable? As I recall, the 0 AWG pair performed better in both the
instrumental and listening tests than any of the audiosnob brands. Of
course, the expensive-is-always-better crowd countered that the cables
must be matched to the combination of amp, speaker and listening room.
One day, I'd like to see how a panel of audiosnobs would rate a _live_
performance heard through an opaque (but acoustically transparent)
curtain.


About the only thing a speaker cable can do is add resistance (lowers
volume and can change speaker damping) or add inductance (attenuates
highs slightly, not generally audibly). Widely spaced pairs have more
inductance; an aggressively bad design can hit something like 20
uH/meter.


Which is why I rejected sucha pattern recently for an install. I assume it
had been made that way just to suit audiophool tastes.



The NMR gradient cable that I replaced was made of two pieces of RG8
coax, using the centers for the current out and return, with both
shields grounded for EMI reasons. That design maximized both
resistance and inductance, so the load that I was driving was more
cable than gradient coil.

"Aggressively bad"

Some laser drivers make a cable out of two pieces of copper foil with
a thin double-adhesive insulator between. They get below 2 ohms as I
recall.

John



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On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 09:49:38 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"John Larkin"

Somewhat along these lines John?

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm


No. They show a thin inner conductor with thick insulation.


** Try reading the text.

There is no "insulation"used.

The black layer is a carbon filled plastic = a conductor.


If it conducts, it barely conducts. Nearly all the current will flow
through the copper. So it may as well be an insulator.


"In keeping with the fundamentals of HF-technology the impedance of
any conductor will rise dramatically in the bass region..."

is standard audio pseudo-scientific nonsense.




Impedance
goes as the log of D/d, where D is the diameter of the shield and d is
the diameter of the inner conductor. So to make D/d approach 1 (and
impedance approach zero) the insulation must be as thin as possible
(which adds capacitance, of course.)



** What if there is a conductive layer used ?


See above.




The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.



** You have done tests on the stuff - right ??


No, but the reference curves, the ones above the miracle cable, are
plain silly.

There's no way a dinky construction like this is going to have Zo of
10 ohms.




But I suppose the wilder the lies,



** Err - like your ones here ??

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.



** Only to the deaf and the daft.


It's only music. I doesn't matter.

John

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"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

Somewhat along these lines John?

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm


No. They show a thin inner conductor with thick insulation.


** Try reading the text.

There is no "insulation"used.

The black layer is a carbon filled plastic = a conductor.


If it conducts, it barely conducts. Nearly all the current will flow
through the copper. So it may as well be an insulator.



** Just guesswork - not fact.

The conductivity of that graphite layer likely increases the capacitance per
meter plus add a continuous loss per metre.

It may well do just what the graph shows.



"In keeping with the fundamentals of HF-technology the impedance of
any conductor will rise dramatically in the bass region..."

is standard audio pseudo-scientific nonsense.



** Fraid it is perfectly correct.

The characteristic impedance of short transmission lines rises at low
frequencies - as shown in the graphs.



** What if there is a conductive layer used ?


See above.


** There is nothing but your ******** to see.



The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.



** You have done tests on the stuff - right ??


No, but the reference curves, the ones above the miracle cable, are
plain silly.

There's no way a dinky construction like this is going to have Zo of
10 ohms.



** Pure conjecture, based on your ignorance of how the cable operates.

Just as your comments on audio are based on ignorance.



....... Phil




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On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:31:24 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

Somewhat along these lines John?

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm


No. They show a thin inner conductor with thick insulation.

** Try reading the text.

There is no "insulation"used.

The black layer is a carbon filled plastic = a conductor.


If it conducts, it barely conducts. Nearly all the current will flow
through the copper. So it may as well be an insulator.



** Just guesswork - not fact.


The best carbon-filled plastics have volume electrical resistance in
the ballpark of a million times higher than copper. The ESD-type
carbon-filled plastics, the cheaper stuff, is yet thousands or
millions of times worse, typically 1e15 times the resistance of
copper. Look it up. Even silver filled plastics don't conduct very
well, heat or electricity, because the grains don't contact well.

Think about it: in this silly speaker cable, if the carbon conducts
anywhere near as well as copper, it will short the cable. If it
doesn't, it's acting as an insulator as far as the magnetics go.



The conductivity of that graphite layer likely increases the capacitance per
meter plus add a continuous loss per metre.

It may well do just what the graph shows.



"In keeping with the fundamentals of HF-technology the impedance of
any conductor will rise dramatically in the bass region..."

is standard audio pseudo-scientific nonsense.



** Fraid it is perfectly correct.

The characteristic impedance of short transmission lines rises at low
frequencies - as shown in the graphs.


Those graphs are absurd. Measure the *actual impedance* of few feet of
zip cord at, say, 60 Hz. Do you really think it goes to hundreds of
ohms? How could a toaster work if its line cord has hundreds of ohms
of impedance?

John


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"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

Somewhat along these lines John?

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ocos/idx_products.htm


No. They show a thin inner conductor with thick insulation.

** Try reading the text.

There is no "insulation"used.

The black layer is a carbon filled plastic = a conductor.


If it conducts, it barely conducts. Nearly all the current will flow
through the copper. So it may as well be an insulator.



** Just guesswork - not fact.


The best carbon-filled plastics have volume electrical resistance in
the ballpark of a million times higher than copper.


** Yawnnnnn....


Think about it: in this silly speaker cable, if the carbon conducts
anywhere near as well as copper, it will short the cable.


** The cable may well get slightly warm when run at high power.

If the core to outer resistance is say about 1000 ohms per metre.


If it
doesn't, it's acting as an insulator as far as the magnetics go.


** The issue is capacitance per metre.

As you previously raised but now want to hide from.


"In keeping with the fundamentals of HF-technology the impedance of
any conductor will rise dramatically in the bass region..."

is standard audio pseudo-scientific nonsense.



** Fraid it is perfectly correct.

The characteristic impedance of short transmission lines rises at low
frequencies - as shown in the graphs.


Those graphs are absurd.



** No - YOU are absurd.

Absurdly arrogant and pig ignorant.


Measure the *actual impedance* of few feet of
zip cord at, say, 60 Hz.



** The point here is about "characteristic impedance" !!

You know the definition.

Its the load R that makes a length of cable look perfectly resistive from
the feed end.

The blue lines on that graph are perfectly correct.



...... Phil











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"Eeyore" wrote in message


About 30 years ago the reknowned UK pro recording magazine Studio
Sound conducted *scientific* tests of various loudspeaker cables
(plus listening tests). Heavy gauge house wiring cable of 4mm2 CSA
came second out of 6-8 examples. I forget what bettered it. Probably
6mm2 house wiring cable ! ;~)


Isn't that solid conductor? (i.e., more inductance than stranded)


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add another
zero, and remove the last word.


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John Larkin wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Phaedeaux wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

The impedance graphs and text on the cited web page are made-up lies.
But I suppose the wilder the lies, the more audiophools will pay.

Audio doesn't really matter anyhow.

Didn't one of the electronics magazines once publish a series of A/B
comparisons of various ultra-expensive speaker cables against zero-guage
welding cable? As I recall, the 0 AWG pair performed better in both the
instrumental and listening tests than any of the audiosnob brands. Of
course, the expensive-is-always-better crowd countered that the cables
must be matched to the combination of amp, speaker and listening room.
One day, I'd like to see how a panel of audiosnobs would rate a _live_
performance heard through an opaque (but acoustically transparent)
curtain.

About the only thing a speaker cable can do is add resistance (lowers
volume and can change speaker damping) or add inductance (attenuates
highs slightly, not generally audibly). Widely spaced pairs have more
inductance; an aggressively bad design can hit something like 20
uH/meter.


Which is why I rejected sucha pattern recently for an install. I assume it
had been made that way just to suit audiophool tastes.


The NMR gradient cable that I replaced was made of two pieces of RG8
coax, using the centers for the current out and return, with both
shields grounded for EMI reasons. That design maximized both
resistance and inductance, so the load that I was driving was more
cable than gradient coil.

"Aggressively bad"

Some laser drivers make a cable out of two pieces of copper foil with
a thin double-adhesive insulator between. They get below 2 ohms as I
recall.


I have to say I liked you 'home made coax' idea. How might the numbers turn out
when using typical 2.5 mm2 or 4mm2 AWM ? Sorry we don't understand AWG here
without tables or charts. I guess you'll want a fairly thin sheath over the
centre conductor. Not sure if plain AWM would be ideal for that.

Graham

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John Larkin wrote:

It's only music. I doesn't matter.


Depends on your tastes and personality.

Have you never experienced that tingle run down your spine when listening to
truly good music ?

Graham

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flipper wrote:

In short, it doesn't make a whit of difference what their cable's
'characteristic impedance' is.


Well said that man. Another nail in the audiophools' coffin.

Graham

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"flipper the fool "


Then why didn't you answer his question "How could a toaster work if
its line cord has hundreds of ohms of impedance?"



** Cos it was a stupid & irrelevant bait.


The answer is because it isn't a transmission line...


** Shame that is a 100% wrong answer.


At audio frequencies transmission line effects don't begin until you
reach one or two thousand feet and at 50/60Hz power line frequencies
it's on the order of 5 miles.



** Shame that is 100% wrong too.

Go away - imbecile.




...... Phil






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On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 06:18:51 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:03:08 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:



** The point here is about "characteristic impedance" !!

You know the definition.

Its the load R that makes a length of cable look perfectly resistive from
the feed end.

The blue lines on that graph are perfectly correct.


Then why didn't you answer his question "How could a toaster work if
its line cord has hundreds of ohms of impedance?"

The answer is because it isn't a transmission line... and neither is a
domestic speaker cable regardless of how 'fancy' you make it.

At audio frequencies transmission line effects don't begin until you
reach one or two thousand feet and at 50/60Hz power line frequencies
it's on the order of 5 miles.

In short, it doesn't make a whit of difference what their cable's
'characteristic impedance' is.


Exactly. The function of the carbon-filled plastic is to efficiently
separate morons from money.

John

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On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:46:49 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



John Larkin wrote:

It's only music. I doesn't matter.


Depends on your tastes and personality.

Have you never experienced that tingle run down your spine when listening to
truly good music ?

Graham


I suppose I did when I was very young. Lately, I don't like most
music, which I find either predictably boring and too slow, or jingl-y
annoying, so I don't listen to music voluntarily. I'm not quite at the
Horatio Hornblower level (one of the few characters in literature who
could not stand music in any form) but close. Maybe the problem is
that most music, like most TV, movies, novels, newspapers, and
restaurant food, is commercialized swill.

But that doesn't change the behavior of transmission lines. When I
drive NMR gradient coils, I *measure* the transmision like effects to
PPM precision.

Music is dangerous. It has sufficient emotional power for a lot of
people that it switches off their ability to think. It's used to
propagate a lot of nonsense, both harmless and dangerous.

The ubiquity of music in modern society is repulsive. The Beatles, or
Carly Simon, or even Bob Dylan for pete's sake, are now background
music at Safeway, interrupted randomly by "Attention shoppers..."

John


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On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:48:21 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:57:00 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"flipper the fool "


Then why didn't you answer his question "How could a toaster work if
its line cord has hundreds of ohms of impedance?"



** Cos it was a stupid & irrelevant bait.


No, what's "stupid" is you can't explain why zip cord works perfectly
fine for toasters (and speakers) even though your audiophool cable
folks claim it has well over 400 ohms 'characteristic impedance' at
50/60Hz.


The answer is because it isn't a transmission line...


** Shame that is a 100% wrong answer.


Shame you apparently don't know squat about transmission line theory.


At audio frequencies transmission line effects don't begin until you
reach one or two thousand feet and at 50/60Hz power line frequencies
it's on the order of 5 miles.



** Shame that is 100% wrong too.


http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/TransLines-LowFreq.pdf


It's worse than the paper suggests. Characteristic impedance is the
apparent impedance at one end of an infinitely long hunk of
transmission line. For any but a lossless line, there's, well, loss.
And presumably what the The Compleat Audiophool cares about is what
gets to the speakers, not the load the amp sees.

Once the series and shunt resistance begin to have any significant
effect on characteristic impedance (ie, at low frequencies and for
very long lines) the signal that dribbles out of the far end is mostly
gone.

How many people use miles of speaker cable?

How many people can clearly hear attenuation effects that measure in
the parts-per-million? I bet I can name one.

John


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flipper wrote:

Shame you apparently don't know squat about transmission line theory.


Or even toasters now it would seem !

Graham

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John Larkin wrote:

How many people use miles of speaker cable?


Longest run I've ever used was about 50m. And that was unusual.

Graham

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