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"flip top nut case "


** Characteristic impedance IS ALWAYS independent of cable length.

Cos it IS a " characteristic " of the cable and depends only on how
it
is made and the frequency.

The "characteristic impedance" is the impedance above the transition
region.



** Figure 7 SHOWS it is a valid parameter at all frequencies.


You're trying to make a faux case from the axis label on ONE graph
that even the title says is "Impedance vs. Frequency" and every other
graph that one is a composite of are labeled "Impedance vs.
Frequency.."



** The graph in Figure 7 is labelled " Characteristic Impedance (Ohms) "
and "Frequency (Hertz )".

The graphs in figures 4, 5 & 6 have " Zo " followed by formulae linked to
the curves and lines.

Zo = characteristic impedance.

So all these graphs are of CHARACTERISTIC IMPEDANCE.

You pathetic, blind as bat fool.



Quoting your source: "The characteristic impedance which is normally
listed in a cable catalog is this constant high frequency impedance."



** Which contradicts YOU - 100%.


Nope.


** Fraid it does - flip head.



The 'hundreds of ohms' comes
from the cable manufacturer's graph depicting what they claim is the
'characteristic impedance' of 'other' speaker cables.

** A perfectly correct set of graphs.

Characteristic impedance (or Zo) rises at lower frequencies for all
normal
cable types - the transition frequency is often in the middle of the
audio band.

I never said the graphs were 'wrong'.



** Yes you did, you flip head liar - you said it was "cow patty",


No,


** You did.


Only the ( electrically) short ones do not support standing waves.

Which is necessary for the impedance to matter.



** COMPLETELY WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Completely right.

If the cable is 'short' relative to the wavelength (frequency) then
there is not 'enough' of it for the 'wave' to 'stand in', so to speak,
and the 'reflected' wave is essentially the same phase as the source,
so there can be no 'wave cancellation' or significant 'loading' of the
signal .



** Signal source loading is NOT due only to standing waves.

Transmission line behaviour does NOT depend on them.

THAT is your false assumption.



It matters in OTHER WAYS !!!!!!!!!!!


Care to explain what these "other ways" are?



** Cable capacitance and cable linear inductance.

Both can be made to vanish by Zo loading a cable.

This is what the topic is all about in relation to audio lines - cos there
is no issue with standing waves.



Remember, you just said "all cables" so the
question still remains for you to answer why the power cord works
instead of reflecting the power back from impedance mismatch.



** That is your own utterly mad, totally wrong idea.


Then explain why it works.


** No such thing needs explaining.



That is all well and good except they are presuming ....


** No they are not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes, they are.



** Yaaawnnnnnnnnnnnnnn .....

Too dumb for words.



That is a QUOTE from the link you snipped out because your own
authoritative source says you're wrong.



** That is not any source I quoted.

Cos that fool makes the same dumb errors that many others have.



Just proves you can't read. The quoted words were cut and pasted from
the article beginning with the first sentence of the second paragraph
under figure 11 about midway in the paper: "You can see that, at low
frequencies, there is no "characteristic" impedance. It is always
changing. "



** That is just plain idiotic.

Just because a parameter varies with frequency don't mean it ceases to exist
!!!!

WOT A FOOL !!



The "desperate CHARLATAN !!!!" is you removing the reference from
your own authoritative source showing you're wrong.



** Not any source I linked at all.

Just some dumb fool with the same wrong ideas that radio hams sprout all
the time.



....... Phil





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"Paul Hovnanian P.E."
HiggsField wrote:
"Phil Allison"


** For "uk.rec.audio" readers.



Absolute overkill, and it appears that the construction style would lead
to HUGE capacitance levels.


Capacitance? Where? Not an issue between strands in the same conductor.
They are at the same potential. The capacitance between the two
conductors would be no worse than that of any stranded conductor twin
lead (zip cord).



** Get real - the strands of the two conductors are * interwoven * so
there is a large increase in cable capacitance over a comparable twin wire
lead. About 20 to 30 times.

But this extra C disappears if the cable is terminated in a zobel network
with R = 8.2 ohms.


This is (like?) Litz wire, used to keep skin effects and the resulting
higher a.c. resistance down.



** That is a side benefit of using interwoven strands - the primary reason
for which is to minimise cable inductance.




....... Phil





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On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:57:52 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:02:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

OK, post us a link to some Moto VME products.

John



You are disconnected, John. A real world exists out there.


A link will prove you right.

You do know how to post links?

John


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On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:55:37 -0700, HiggsField
wrote:



The metals are nice, but making them well is how one keeps things like
shot noise to a minimum.


Conduction in metals doesn't exhibit shot noise.

John

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"flip top nut case "


** Characteristic impedance IS ALWAYS independent of cable length.

Cos it IS a " characteristic " of the cable and depends only on how
it is made and the frequency.

The "characteristic impedance" is the impedance above the transition
region.



** Figure 7 SHOWS it is a valid parameter at all frequencies.


You're trying to make a faux case from the axis label on ONE graph
that even the title says is "Impedance vs. Frequency" and every other
graph that one is a composite of are labeled "Impedance vs.
Frequency.."



** The graph in Figure 7 is labelled " Characteristic Impedance (Ohms) "
and "Frequency (Hertz )".

The graphs in figures 4, 5 & 6 have " Zo " followed by formulae linked to
the curves and lines.

Zo = characteristic impedance.

So all these graphs are of CHARACTERISTIC IMPEDANCE.

You pathetic, blind as bat damn fool !!!!



If the cable is 'short' relative to the wavelength (frequency) then
there is not 'enough' of it for the 'wave' to 'stand in', so to speak,
and the 'reflected' wave is essentially the same phase as the source,
so there can be no 'wave cancellation' or significant 'loading' of the
signal .



** Signal source loading is NOT due only to standing waves.

Transmission line behaviour does NOT depend on them.

THAT is your false assumption.



It matters in OTHER WAYS !!!!!!!!!!!


Care to explain what these "other ways" are?



** Cable capacitance and cable linear inductance.

Both can be made to vanish by Zo loading a cable.

This is what the topic is all about in relation to audio lines - cos there
is no issue with standing waves.



That is a QUOTE from the link you snipped out because your own
authoritative source says you're wrong.



** That is not any source I quoted.

Cos that fool makes the same dumb errors that many others have.



Just proves you can't read. The quoted words were cut and pasted from
the article beginning with the first sentence of the second paragraph
under figure 11 about midway in the paper: "You can see that, at low
frequencies, there is no "characteristic" impedance. It is always
changing. "



** That is just plain idiotic.

Just because a parameter varies with frequency don't mean it ceases to exist
!!!!

WOT A FOOL !!



The "desperate CHARLATAN !!!!" is you removing the reference from
your own authoritative source showing you're wrong.



** Not any source I linked at all.

Just some dumb fool with the same wrong ideas that radio hams sprout all
the time.

And a fool never learns.



....... Phil








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"HiggsField"


No, it isn't. The weave has a few purposes. It is MAINLY so that one
can pass the run under a rug, and it will lay fairly flat, compared to
that same circular mil area in a solid or stranded "single conductor"
pair, paralleled or twisted.



** The cable in my pic is 7mm round and will not compress as it has an inner
plastic core.

The inter weave is to reduce cable inductance to a minimum.


Another function is to quell external influences from changing an
instantaneous potential into a value it was not originally.



** Tin hat logic.


Another function is high flexibility with low capacity for mechanical
breakage.


** It is reasonably tough stuff.


So the main reason, electrically speaking is to get as much copper area
into as flat a lay as possible.



** It will not lay flat.



....... Phil


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John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:57:52 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:02:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

OK, post us a link to some Moto VME products.

John



You are disconnected, John. A real world exists out there.


A link will prove you right.

You do know how to post links?

John



http://www.mcg.mot.com/
https://mcg.motorola.com/cfm/templates/documentation.cfm?PageID=970&ProductID=164&PageTyp eID=4
that shows where Motorola solde the product line to Emerson Electric?
Once again, he is 'Always Wrong'.


--
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aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
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On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:03:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:57:52 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:02:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

OK, post us a link to some Moto VME products.

John


You are disconnected, John. A real world exists out there.


A link will prove you right.

You do know how to post links?

John



http://www.mcg.mot.com/
https://mcg.motorola.com/cfm/templates/documentation.cfm?PageID=970&ProductID=164&PageTyp eID=4
that shows where Motorola solde the product line to Emerson Electric?
Once again, he is 'Always Wrong'.


Amazing, isn't he?

He must actually google this stuff before he posts. Nobody could be
that wrong, all the time, for years, by accident.

John


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"flip top nut case "


** Characteristic impedance IS ALWAYS independent of cable length.

Cos it IS a " characteristic " of the cable and depends only on how
it is made and the frequency.

The "characteristic impedance" is the impedance above the transition
region.



** Figure 7 SHOWS it is a valid parameter at all frequencies.



" This article from Belden ( famous US cable maker) on cable Zo ( at high
and
low frequencies) is free of the gross errors seen in the ones " flip top
head" selected:

http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Techpprs/ciocahalf.htm "


You're trying to make a faux case from the axis label on ONE graph
that even the title says is "Impedance vs. Frequency" and every other
graph that one is a composite of are labeled "Impedance vs.
Frequency.."



** The graph in Figure 7 is labelled " Characteristic Impedance (Ohms) "
and "Frequency (Hertz )".

The graphs in figures 4, 5 & 6 have " Zo " followed by formulae linked to
the curves and lines.

Zo = characteristic impedance.

So all these graphs are of CHARACTERISTIC IMPEDANCE.

You pathetic, blind as bat damn fool !!!!



If the cable is 'short' relative to the wavelength (frequency) then
there is not 'enough' of it for the 'wave' to 'stand in', so to speak,
and the 'reflected' wave is essentially the same phase as the source,
so there can be no 'wave cancellation' or significant 'loading' of the
signal .



** Signal source loading is NOT due only to standing waves.

Transmission line behaviour does NOT depend on them.

THAT is your false assumption.



It matters in OTHER WAYS !!!!!!!!!!!


Care to explain what these "other ways" are?



** Cable capacitance and cable linear inductance.

Both can be made to vanish by Zo loading a cable.

This is what the topic is all about in relation to audio lines - cos there
is no issue with standing waves.



That is a QUOTE from the link you snipped out because your own
authoritative source says you're wrong.



** That is not any source I quoted.

Cos that sales dude fool makes the same dumb errors that many others have.



Just proves you can't read. The quoted words were cut and pasted from
the article beginning with the first sentence of the second paragraph
under figure 11 about midway in the paper: "You can see that, at low
frequencies, there is no "characteristic" impedance. It is always
changing. "



** That is just plain idiotic.

Just because a parameter varies with frequency don't mean it ceases to exist
!!!!


The "desperate CHARLATAN !!!!" is you removing the reference from
your own authoritative source showing you're wrong.



** Not any source I linked at all.

Just some dumb *sales dude fool* with the same wrong ideas that idiot radio
hams sprout all the time.

And a fool never learns.




....... Phil



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John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:03:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:57:52 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:02:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

OK, post us a link to some Moto VME products.

John


You are disconnected, John. A real world exists out there.

A link will prove you right.

You do know how to post links?

John



http://www.mcg.mot.com/
https://mcg.motorola.com/cfm/templates/documentation.cfm?PageID=970&ProductID=164&PageTyp eID=4
that shows where Motorola solde the product line to Emerson Electric?
Once again, he is 'Always Wrong'.


Amazing, isn't he?

He must actually google this stuff before he posts. Nobody could be
that wrong, all the time, for years, by accident.



It makes you wonder, doesn't it? He must stay up all night,
practicing to be that stupid.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


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On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:54:05 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:03:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:57:52 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:02:40 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

OK, post us a link to some Moto VME products.

John


You are disconnected, John. A real world exists out there.

A link will prove you right.

You do know how to post links?

John


http://www.mcg.mot.com/
https://mcg.motorola.com/cfm/templates/documentation.cfm?PageID=970&ProductID=164&PageTyp eID=4
that shows where Motorola solde the product line to Emerson Electric?
Once again, he is 'Always Wrong'.


Amazing, isn't he?

He must actually google this stuff before he posts. Nobody could be
that wrong, all the time, for years, by accident.



It makes you wonder, doesn't it? He must stay up all night,
practicing to be that stupid.


Pain slut, craves public humiliation. That's actually pretty common on
usenet.

John


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StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

flipper wrote:

From my experience it is here too.

Thanks for the heads up.


You are both ****ing retarded.


DIMBULB proof again.


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On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:07:27 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:03:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Motorola solde the product line to Emerson Electric?
Once again, he is 'Always Wrong'.



Sold "A" product line. Are you saying that ALL of their VME products
were part of that line that was sold? Did you even look?


Post a link to a Moto VME product.

John

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On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:58:20 -0700, HiggsField
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 20:18:09 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:55:37 -0700, HiggsField
wrote:



The metals are nice, but making them well is how one keeps things like
shot noise to a minimum.


Conduction in metals doesn't exhibit shot noise.

John



Conduction in ANY bulk medium can and does.

Choosing the wrong copper can lead to micro-fractures in the
micro-crystalline structure of the copper after mechanical flexure, and
that increases said noise.


Audio is such nonsense.

John

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John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:07:27 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:03:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Motorola solde the product line to Emerson Electric?
Once again, he is 'Always Wrong'.



Sold "A" product line. Are you saying that ALL of their VME products
were part of that line that was sold? Did you even look?


Post a link to a Moto VME product.

John



He didn't even look at the link. It was to a Motorola domain name,
but opens to Emerson Electric. Pathetic.



--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


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"HiggsField"
"Phil Allison"

No, it isn't. The weave has a few purposes. It is MAINLY so that one
can pass the run under a rug, and it will lay fairly flat, compared to
that same circular mil area in a solid or stranded "single conductor"
pair, paralleled or twisted.



** The cable in my pic is 7mm round and will not compress as it has an
inner
plastic core.

The inter weave is to reduce cable inductance to a minimum.


It has more than one function.



** So does a tin hat ............

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn..............



Another function is to quell external influences from changing an
instantaneous potential into a value it was not originally.



** Tin hat logic.



I can show you a standard DVN reading a voltage and observe the jitter
in our noisy lab that creates... then twist the meter leads, and see how
the jitter all but disappears. Noise cancellation IS one of the
functions of the "cable".



** More tin hat logic .........

What has no observable effect in the application has no function.

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnn........



So the main reason, electrically speaking is to get as much copper area
into as flat a lay as possible.



** It will not lay flat.



Without the core tube, versions of that wire do, and it does not
significantly increase inductance, and it DOES lay flat in such a
scenario. Same exact construction except for the inner tube.



** More ****wit, tin hat logic.

Misses the point by miles.




....... Phil




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On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:16:23 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 06:59:51 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:07:27 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:03:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Motorola solde the product line to Emerson Electric?
Once again, he is 'Always Wrong'.


Sold "A" product line. Are you saying that ALL of their VME products
were part of that line that was sold? Did you even look?


Post a link to a Moto VME product.

John


Did you even read what I wrote?

I would venture to say that they have products that they are not even
at liberty to tell you or some other normal ****tard that they have.

For you to think that everything they make is commercially available is
pretty goddamned arrogant, you stupid ****tard.

There are plenty of companies that incorporate COTS parts in their
contracted designs, but not every solution they require can be handled
through COTS supply lines, therefore major portions of any given design
can still incorporate custom made, single vendor only parts. Are you
even able to grasp that concept?

Do you even know what the term "same page" means, Johnny? You are out
of your league.




Post a link to a Moto VME product. Or keep babbling. Or admit you were
wrong.


John


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On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 10:42:21 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 07:46:04 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Post a link to a Moto VME product. Or keep babbling. Or admit you were
wrong.


John

Do you even know how to read, Johnny? If that answer is yes, then read
the posts you are replying to, you retarded ****!

There will not be any... ANY link to the products they make that are
NOT commercial products.

Can you even grasp that concept, you absolute ****ing retard?



Oh, you're right, maybe Dunkin' Donuts has a secret VME product line
too. I bet Victoria's Secret keeps some VME SBCs in the back room for
special customers.

John

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