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Clare Snyder Clare Snyder is offline
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Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:28:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
are harsher on rotors and noisier)
Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.

Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are
marketing bull**** (he used nicer terms than that).

from the PBR brake site :

PBR Axxis Metal Master Brake Pads, Ultimate Brake Pads, and Deluxe
Brake Pads

Note: The FMP Group Australia Pty. Ltd., is the manufacturer of Axxis
and PBR brand brake pads; these pads are identical.

Axxis Ultimate Brake Pads


The PBR Axxis Ultimate brake pads feature a special Kevlar® and
ceramic-strengthened formula with a high co-efficient of friction and
excellent high temperature wear and fade resistance. Designed for
ultra-high performance driving and hard-braking applications, PBR
Axxis Ultimate pad users will benefit with extreme stopping power and
high resistance to brake fade at high temperatures, meaning the
decrease in friction over repeated heavy duty stops, as the
temperature increases, is minimal. PBR Axxis Ultimate pads boast a
maximum continuous working temperature of 550° C (1022° F degrees).
Consistent throughout its operating temperature range, you’ll get
dependable, predictable stops time after time while maintaining a
solid pedal feel.

Axxis Metal Master

Metal Master

Metal Master: Non-asbestos, semi-metallic compound provides the
highest fade resistance among leading semi-met brake pads. They
deliver proven longer pad and rotor life, with low rotor scoring and
quiet braking.
•Designed for applications requiring the highest performance
•Premium quality, non-asbestos, semi-metallic formula
•Unique formula offers reduced brake dust, fade and squeal
•Provides the ultimate stopping power under all conditions
•Virtually eliminates squeal and dust
•Improved cold effectiveness
•Improved pad life

Axxis Deluxe


Exclusive OE equivalent organic compound provides outstanding stopping
power with very low fade. Extremely quiet with proven long pad and
rotor life and low rotor scoring. Provides measurably longer life and
has extreme resistance to heat while delivering consistent, smooth
braking performance.
•Formulated from the latest premium quality, organic materials
•Low dust, low squeal
•Delivers quality braking performance
•Rotor friendly
•Smooth stopping power
•Low dust and squeal
•Extended pad life

Get yourself a set of PBR Axxis Ultimate, Metal Master, or Deluxe pads
today! Brake pads! High Performance Brake Pads! Theres nothing
better for braking performance than a good brake pad.

So PBR makes 3 differentlines of brakes. One is sold as AXXIS
Ultimate, oneas Axxis Metal Master, and one as Axxis Deluxe. (Also
sold underthe PBR brand)

3 totally different pads for diufferent use - all spelled out on the
PBR brake products web site. If you spoke to a PBR marketing person
you spoke to an idiot who doesn't know their product line, and knows
even less about brakes. What you got from HIM WAS marketing bull****.

Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers?

Whoever you called gave you VERY bad information.

You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
materials with a magnet.

Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's
a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I
look them up online!

And you are still stupid enough to think you have to buy online -- I
just cannot figure you idiots out.

Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a
magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test
the old shoes and pads when I take them off.

But metallics are not NECESSARILLY magnetic - because they can be
copper or brass - and even ceramics can have some metal in them - as
can some organics. You just DON"T GET IT.

Good idea if it works.
Can others concur it works?

The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
"boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.

The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which
companies that is, so I don't know what you know.

Get used to it.

He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they
fit to all cars.

Which is pure bull;**** when talking about tiuer one aftermarket
suppliers (which are also OEM suppliers in most cases)

You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
technology meets your desires.

That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go
and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have.

It's just not.

And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine,
for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist.

I do NOT buy on a "number line" - I buy by spec. I buy organic, semi
metallic, or ceramic depending on what brake characteristics I need
and what I'm willing to pay.

SO I'm ****ed.

You've done it to yourself.

I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.

Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it
fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is
the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular

You keep going between pads and shoes. There is so much difference -
hardly oranges to oranges - barely apples to oranges - more like
rutabagas to apples.

Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.

You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right.
Specifications are not bull****.
Marketing spin is bull****.

ANd I don't look at "marketing spin" I look at "real" specifications.
What KIND of brake material is it? Knowing the KIND of material I can
pretty accurately deduce the basic qualities of the brake product -
and knowing the manufacturer AND the composition, I can make a pretty
good deduction as to quality and suitability for my purpose. Without
any "number line" or "friction rating"
The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
"science" is).

The science is only in the hands of the formulators.
Nobody else has access to that science.

When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.

This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices!
They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were.

No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of

I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine.
But I don't.
I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them.

And where do you get the idea I trust "marketing"?????

WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?

That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the
immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you
like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF
shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes.

No, for the Toyota you buy Akebono brake shoes - the aftermarket
supplier that also produces the OEM brakes for a large percentage of
Toyota vehicles (Toyota generally "dual sources" all major parts that
the source from outside, like brakes, shoicks, lenses, bulbs, and
spark plugs. If one supplier has a problem they cut them off until the
problem is solved. (for spark plugs it was always either Nipon Denso
or NGK,, foir many parts like AC it was Aisin or Denso.

The MAJOR Tier one aftermarket suppliers are also major OEM

TRW, Walker,Monroe, Delphi, and a host of other manufacturers design
and build all kinds of parts for the OEM market - as well as the

They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
and OEM REplacement .

In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.

That will be ONE of their brake suppliers.

But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which
is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM.

His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE
shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE
is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad.

He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours,
which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but
luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every*
brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material.

Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
field totally outside your reralm.

I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on
specifications. I just hate it.

And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for
brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction
is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another.

That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison.
And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically.

So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're

When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.

I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car.
They're all the same to me.

Then what are yopu fussing about????????

The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more.

The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you.

And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
oversimplified that last statement
A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
resistance due to size.

Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers.
But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it.
So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that
it woudl be the case.

You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air,
but the same in a vacuum. We all know that.

My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong.
Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong.

Not if their "intuition" is "educated"

Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials.......

ANd you know NOTHING about octane and detonation - I'd be willing to
bet significantly on that one. (Few people do - the myths on that
subject are - well - "mythical".

Don't get started on that one unless you want to get TOTALLY

There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.

That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor.

Why use Ocam's razor - don't you have your own????

Seriously - you are making more assumtions than I am - therefore the
chances of your conclusions being correct are significantly less than

Not quite sure you fully understand "Ockham's Razor" either (also
known as Occams razor - not Ocams) - a theory first postulated by a
14th century mathemetician and Franciscan Friar by the name of William
of Ockham as part of his "unified field theory"

His principal is simply "Entities should not be multiplied

It has been expanded on by many others includingsuch natables as

Like any sharp instrument -Ockhams razor should not be weilded
blindly - - - -