On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:
the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry
about is "performance"
That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake
feel, pad life, and rotor life.
Yes. But.
There's no way to tell that if you have two pads in your hands, and even
less of a way to tell if you're buying two pads online.
Remember, *all* the marketing is complete bull**** (refer back to
Axxis, PBR, and Metal Masters - three differently marketed and priced pads,
all exactly the same - and refer to the fact that there are no laws telling
them that a spec of dust isn't ceramic and that a spec of iron isn't
semimetallic.
The only law that I know of is that they can't call a non-asbestos pad that
if it contains asbestos.
Maybe someone here knows the laws, but that's my sad conclusion so far.
The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and
the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE .
(Both are essentially an F -)
Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping
beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B
when they are in the consumer's hands.
OK - we've gotten off the subject of brake SHOES - wherer there is a
lot less difference in materials and construction - but with PADS
there are several things you can consider that are NOT "marketing
bull****"
Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
are harsher on rotors and noisier)
Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.
You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
materials with a magnet.
For rear brake SHOES a good organic material is usually your best bet
- they do not do a lot of the stopping, so generally outlast front
pads by a LARGE margine and unless towing, heavy loads, or extreme
duty they seldom get hot enough to fade much (compared to front brakes
- where droms significantly outperform discs in initial stopping
power, but quickly loose efficiency due to heat.
The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
"boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.
You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
technology meets your desires.
I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.
But it's not possible. Anyone who *thinks* he can tell, is fooling
himself. So every butt-dyno inspired "review" out there is complete
bull**** (and always was for a huge number of reasons).
Everything is bull****.
That's what's so sad.
Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.
The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
"science" is)
When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.
That's why their prices are generally so good (if, unlike here in
Canada, the shipping costs don't totally wipe out the savings in so
many cases)
Taking into account the exchange rate and shipping, I can GENERALLY
buy , say, Wagner, from Napa or Parts Source for VERY close to the
same price as I can buy from Rock.
The only thing we know, by looking at a pad, is who made it, what its
friction coefficient is, and whether or not some other pad is made by that
company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material.
That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing
bull****.
No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of
ignorance.
AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the
manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they
will be close.
Yes. You have always been right, but ... and this is a big butt! 
1) If you get OE pads (from the dealer or pads with the exact same DOT Edge
Code), then you get the handling specified by the manufacturer (assuming
your vehicle is essentially the same, e.g., same size tires, same
suspension setup, etc.)
2) Otherwise, if you get somethign that some marketing guy "says" is "OEM
Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the
**** "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bull****ter who is telling you
that.
Fiorget your paranoia about "marketting bull****" It is BULL****.
Don't get your technical information from know-nothing boy-racers
blogging on the internet, or reviews opn Amazon,or advertizing in
enthusiast magazines. Get your info from "trade magazines" and major
suppliers to the automotive TRADE.
Buy STEAK, not Sizzle. Forget your boutique brand crap. If your
favourite brands were as good as you seem to think they are, they
would have displaced TRW, WAGNER, Akebono, and the other major OEM
SUPPLIERS as the major aftermarket suppliers.
WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?
They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
and OEM REplacement .
For good reason. They have the engineering, and they have the
"critical mass" to be able to produce quality at a reasonable price.
Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
field totally outside your reralm.
Concentrate on becoming the BEST ELECTRICAL ENGINEER you can be and
let the automotive engineers do their job., Along with the materials
engineers, physicists, chemists, and wizards their potions and
perscriptions are working pretty good.
When you start to build specialized race vehicles or highly modified
special purpose vehicles, you go to the engineers with a blank
checquebook and have them come up with the specialized solution you
require - or you go to an "application engineer" and have him pick the
best off-the-shelf solution for your application - at a significantly
lower price point and a much better chance of initial success.
So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality.
But what the **** does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the
second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here.
OEM means BASICALLY THE SAME DESIGN as OEM - so the second and third
order effects are taken intoaccount the same asthe OEM. This can NOT
be done by a "boutique" marketing company that buys their product out
of the discard bucket of some chinese sweatshop, or off the back
loading dock.
ONE of your "favorite brands" - pehaps MetalMaster -whichever one is
charging the highest price, most likely paid some shop in China to
produce their product afterr having paid some qualified enginners to
come up with the specs and formulation - then the unscrupulous
"*******s" in China unloaded a few containerloads out the back door to
some chinese marketing company who sold them to the other 2
manufacturers. - and quite possibly cheapened the product - possibly
even to the initial purchacer - by substituting inferior raw
materials, or cuttin corners on production - to sell it at a better
price to the other companies - without ever changing the stamp on the
material.
I've had dealings with the scoundrels, where my company paid for the
design and tooling for a product, only to have it on the cover of
"asian sources Computer" magazine for half what we were paying for it
before we even got our first containerload.
You deal with Chinese Industry at your peril. If you have FULL CONTROL
you MAY come out unscathed (Full control is a mirage)
Your 3 products MAY be the same. They MAY all be legitimate. They MAY
actually meet the specs stamped on them - but certainly do NOT bet
your life on it.
When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.
Does OEM Quality mean that the shoe has the same friction coefficient?
(Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more,
right?)
Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long?
OEM Quality means it meets the specifications of the OEM product - in
all the major areas including stopping power/performance, feel, and
life.
Is as dustless?
Makes as much noise?
Has the same pedal force per deceleration value?
Outgasses the same?
Fades the same?
Who the **** knows the answer to that question?
Certainly you don't, and never will if you don't listen and get
treetment for your paranoia.
The only Occam's Razor logical answer to that question is that OEM Quality
is bull**** unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he
doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him
to say that.
Get back on your medications - and if you have never been medicated,
see a professional for dianosis and a perscription as soon as possible
I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with
different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on
one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has
problems.
Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my
jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect.
I have the advantage of being a legitimate tradesman with links to
the automotive oem replacement and afterrmarket locally, and am known
(and respected) by many of them even though I have been actively out
of the trade for over 2 decades - they don't "bull****" me. If they
try, they find out pretty quickly that it doesn't work.
They can usuallyspot a "poser" pretty quickly.
So I understand that if I ask someone who has tons of experience, like you
do, then I can get closer, but even you can't tell me what the difference
is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant
information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced
with them, then I'm back at starting point zero.
I can tell you your $20 pads are NOT ceramic - almost 100% guaranteed
- and I can tell you the $157 pads arer NOT simple organics - almost
100% guarantee. I can also tell you if you are buying "boutique"
brands you are likely overpaying for whatever it is you are buying.
If I have them in my hand I can give you a pretty good guess as to
how they will stand up, and what affect they will have on your rotors.
You do not have this knowlege, and are very unlikely to ever gain
that knowlege because it comes with experience, along with training
and research in a field in which you have not got the training, and
your level of paranoia precludes you EVER absorbing the knowlege
offered to you.
So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access.
You have access to trade supplies like NAPA. Sadly they will sell to
anyone who darkens their door.
Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management
magazine - which had articles about different products - written by
mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the
Stinkers.
Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll
land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more
than they trust measurements.
And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
oversimplified that last statement
A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
resistance due to size.
Not only that, a pingpong ball and a baloon will also fall at
different speeds. - and if the balloon is full of hot air or helium it
won't fall at all.
You simplify things way too much on one hand, and complicate them way
to much onthe other.
I'd hate to have you design an electrical control system for me if
your grasp of electrical engineering is as poor as your grasp of
physice and aerodynamics - - -
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand
binary logic and those who don't"
That's why I don't trust butt dyno reports.
People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if
they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always
written to placate their own preconceived notions.
If you spend megabucks on something, and stake your reputation on
being right, then of course everthing you buy MUST work.
I had a brother inlaw who died of cancer because he KNEW the product
he had been selling and using cured cancer - so there was NO WAY his
cancer had come back If he admitted he had cancer again, he had lied
to everyone he peddled the stuff to and his life had been a lie - so
he didn't have cancer - untill it killed him.
The *only* review I will trust is a blind review, where the driver doesn't
know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review
and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get
advertisement money either.
Like the double blind study done by Nokian with the automotive press
on their Hakkapelitta snow tires.
Nobody knew which cars had what tires on them during the tests - but
the experienced drivers could tell.
And that's almost zero reviews.
All those reviews in Car & Driver and Motortrend are bull****, IMHO.
I realize you're talking a *different* kind of mag, so maybe it's not a rag
like those are, but it's not something I'm going to read unless you know of
a brake comparison that is meaningful.
For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is
better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's
comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by.
Well, I KNOW that some coopers are better than some Duinlops - and
also that some dunlops are better than some Coopers, and a few years
back just about ANYTHING was better than a Hankook. I also know that
Hankook builds and sells some pretty decent tires today. (and like
most manufacturers - some total CRAP.
I also know that many "northamerican brand" tires are now made in
China or Korea, or Thailand or VietNam.
Same here.
Just having one test is useless.
The test has to cover all brake pads we have available to us.
And they just don't.
Look for a certified label
As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip
code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA.
BUll****. Read the article I posted for you. It is an international
certification program - independent of the manufacturer
The only reliable conclusion we can make is that any pad legally sold in
the USA is about the same in performance as far as anyone can tell just by
looking at the pad.
Unless a scientific test has been run, they're all the same is the only
conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're
different) has to be based on bull****.
That's just sad.
What is REALLY sad is you are so mired in Bovine Excement and
paranoia that you can't see the forest for the trees.
New vehicles must meet federal performance standards+AJc-a minimum
stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal
effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will
perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not
necessarily the case.
If you buy QUALITY replacement parts, they will meet or excede those
specs. If you buy boutique crap online you have no assurances at all.
I don't know that new vehicles must meet stopping distance standards but I
don't doubt you as you've been right all along.
However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems
that any pad works, based on those standards.
There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.
I'm not saying that all pads are exactly alike. I definitely think they're
not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they
are not alike, is based on bull**** that isn't backed up by any science
that is available to us.
Your paranoia and ignorance is showing - BIG TIME.
If I put Wagner Thermoquiet ceramic pads on the front of my vehicle,
and wagner or monroe premium shoes on the rear, with good rotors and
pads (no grooves or glazing) and I properly break them in, I KNOW I
will be stopping well for the next couple of years or 10-20000km with
no issues IF I service the front calipers regularly to be sure the
sliders don't stick - and that's here in the "rust belt" of Central
Ontario.
I also know, from experience, that if I pay 3 times as much for EBC
greenstuff pads from some performace shop for my "Mondeo" as what I
pay for OEM wagners, they don't last any longer or stop any better
than if I put on Wagner Semi Metallics. Been there - done that -
threw away the awful "t" shirt ---
As the Ameca engineer told me, the guy submitting the material is the only
guy who knows anything about them.
Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me,
doesn't know anything about any other material.
ANd the guy who submits it may not know squat about it either other
than where he had it made and by who.
In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level+AJc-and also to avoid
future government regulations+AJc-brake manufacturers can test and verify
their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are
designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as
original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being
installed on their vehicle are certified.
Exactly. I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life, so I don't
really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go
to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they
expect to get brake pads and shoes.
Perhaps three of the WORST places to go - and your " I have never
been to a mechanic in my entire life," speeks volumes - if nothing
else - about your combination of paranoia and ignorance.
I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to
a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen
different brands on the vehicle.
ANd if you took them to those brake shops, you will have paid more
than necessary and gotten less than you paiud for unless you knewa lot
more than you do.
Only at the dealer would I expect a specific brand.
Is that a correct assumption? (I have zero experience with mechanics.)
Totally wrong. Go to a Napa Autopro garage and you will get product
sold by NAPA - either their own brand or a national brand - either
economy or premium - depending on what you are willing to pay.
The fact you have "no experience with mechanics" and yet you are so
paranoid speeks volumes. A young graduate engineer with no experience
and an inflated opinion of himself and his knowlege in a field for
which he has NO TRAINING. Don't know about where you are, but I had5
years of training before I could call myself a mechanic.
As a teacher of automechanics I had to make sure my students had a
good grasp of elementary physics (levers, ratios,mechanical
advantage,friction and lubrication) and the related maths, as well as
electricity and electronics, plumbing, machining,some thermodynamics,
as well as hoiw to properly select and use the proper tools for a job
and to work safely. And on top of that, I had to teach them about
"auto mechanics".
After becoming a registered. "licenced" mechanic I took courses put on
by the trade suppliers and the oil companies (when I worked at service
stations) and the manufacturers (when I worked for a dealership) to
keep up to the "state of the art" in products, tools, and diagnosis
methods, (troubleshooting) among other things.
I'll cover the rest separately.
I do appreciate your advice as you have been right all along.
You just happen to have more resources available to you than I have to me.
You have all the "resources" available to you that I have, except for
experience and intuation (born from that experience, as well as
specialized training). Nothing I have quoted or provided for you came
from anywhere that is not readilly available to you - at your keyboard
- if you have half a clue where to look and how to find it.
Along with close to 3 decades of working in the automotive trade I
have close to another 3 decades working in information technology
The secret is knowing fly**** from pepper.
Some of that comes from experience. Some of it comes from "inate
intelligence" and "aptitude" which some are born with, and some are
totally devoid of - no matter HOW much education they get.