neighbor's fence partially on my property
On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 10:06:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2013 3:00:41 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 06:12:53 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
On Saturday, June 29, 2013 7:32:25 PM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 06:14:28 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
On Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:42:38 PM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
What you keep missing is the law says you can't build something
on another man's property. The remedy for that is simple. The
fence gets moved. This isn't some innocent mistake. It's an overt
act of the neighbor or his workmen, not giving a damn and deliberately
putting a fence on another man's property, even after being told
by the owner not to. You want to now believe that a court is going
to get into what is "fair", to make the guy infringed prove that
he's really harmed. This is absurd. The court will order the fence
to be moved. And it's not that it's impossible to do, it's a tiny
backyard with what, 40ft of fence? Good grief.
I'm not missing anything. It doesn't matter what the law says. What
matters is what the judge says.
But judges do tend to follow the law. Otherwise we would have
chaos. And that gets back to my original point. Judges don't
sit there and listen to all sides, then decide what they think
is fair. That is a common misconception. They follow the law.
Hence, I gave you the example of a contract, where later one
party thinks that the "fair" price of the contract should have
been $1000, yet the contract says $2000. A judge isn't going to
say, "well, you're right, that truck should have only cost
you $1000. Or it isn't "fair" that 2 weeks later it needed
a new transmission. The judge is going to look at the law.
You entered into a contract for $2000, the truck was sold as-is.
Pay the $2000.
That was my point, but then you tried to say this isn't a
contracts case. Doesn't matter, the points regarding the
law vs fairness are valid.
Well it does matter. There is a significant difference between
"contract law" and "a dispute".
It's not a dispute. It's one party building a fence on another
man's property, without permission, despite being told *not* to
do so. That's like saying trespassing is a "dispute". Or building a
driveway over another guys land is a dispute. It's a violation of law.
There was no dispute over where the property line was. Both parties
had the same survey showing the exact same thing.
If there's no dispute then what's the problem??
But even with a contract there is no
assurance the judge is going to stick blindly to the exact
requirements.. he may very well look at intent. What was the intent
of the contract... and that can cut both ways. But as I said, this is
not a contract law case.
Say it some more if it makes you feel good. I've told you
3 times now, that I never said it was a contracts case. I
only gave you that contract case example to show that courts
don't go to "fairness" unless it's necessary. They first are
there to enforce and follow the law. So, just like you can't
violate a contract and expect it to be settled by a judge on
"fairness" instead of law, neither can you expect to flagerantly
build a fence on another mans property and expect a judge to
settle it based on some perception of fairness, as opposed to law.
Next time some wants to know how to scramble eggs I guess you'll tell
them all about how to fry chicken eh?
Also, which I think some people fail to understand, this is NOT a
criminal case where the law is often fairly specific about "remedies"
but it is a civil case.
I don't see anyone here saying anything to remotely suggest that.
As such the judge WILL listen to both sides
and almost assuredly will be looking for a FAIR resolution.
Again with the fairness. Good grief.
No. The judge will first apply the LAW.
The "law" consists of various precedents. IOW, it's not just a book
that says "do this" bing badda boom, case closed. Perhaps in a
eviction action it might be simple like that but this isn't an
eviction action.
And in
some cases a FAIR resolution might even mean that a fence 0.5" "too
far" might have to be moved, if, for example, it prevented cars from
coming thru the entrance to a parking garage and therefore ruined the
garage's business. It might also mean that a fence 16 feet "too far"
and 3 miles long might get to stay because it's out in the middle of
nowhere dividing one guys 10,000 acres from the other guys 10,000
acres.
Did any of those get put into place despite the legal property
owner having told them not to put the fence on their property?
Yes, of course they did. That's why its called ADVERSE possession. If
you are aware of it, object to it, but do nothing but bitch you may
eventually lose the land thru adverse possession. If you are aware of
it, don't demand correction, but state you'll allow it with conditions
(which don't have to include money), you won't lose it thru adverse
possession because you will have granted an easement instead.
The OP in this case, if he chooses to not attempt to get it moved,
might be well advised to get something in writing stating what
happened and granting an easement until such time as something comes
up that actually requires the fence be moved to allow him to continue
to enjoy his property.
With the property boundary clearly marked, knows to both parties?
Do you like to let people walk all over you, flip you the finger?
Nope. But I'm not an asshole either. You keep assuming all manner of
things we don't know.
And the law doesn't say you "can't
build something on another man's property." At best it might say "you
may not....".
Sure, and it doesn't say you can't trespass, steal, or murder
either, just that you "may not", right?
I don't think you'll find the laws written in terms of "You can't/may
not murder people/or other criminal acts". I think you'll find them
writing more along the lines of this from AZ statues...
13-1105. First degree murder; classification
A. A person commits first degree murder if:
1. Intending or knowing that the person's conduct will cause death,
the person causes the death of another person, including an unborn
child, with premeditation or, as a result of causing the death of
another person with premeditation, causes the death of an unborn
child.
Yawn....
Not unexpectedly, when you are shown to be blowing smoke out your ass
you suddenly lose interest.
Obviously you CAN build something on another man's
property, just as happened her.
Once that happens the parties to the
dispute must seek a remedy. If they cannot agree on a remedy between
themselves then they must go to court. At that point you have no
assurance of what could happen.
Sure, there is never a 100% assurance as to what will happen.
But in your world, you think that it's somehow OK for a neighbor's
contractors, architect, etc to DELIBERATELY build a fence on
someone else's property even after being told *not* to do it.
There was no disagreement, no legitimate dispute, no uncertainty
where the line was. You think courts reward that kind of behavior,
by then telling the poor sap to just eat it. I think there is an
overwhelming likelihood that the court will tell them to move
the fence. Courts don't tend to reward bad behavior for obvious
reasons. The next shyster will pull the same thing.
I've never said that. Why do you assume it was deliberate?
Because of the facts stated over and over by Don.
Noting Don said indicates the final mistake was deliberate.
We know
he started in the wrong place. Was told it was wrong. Then he
started over. Apparently it was still in the wrong place but we have
no insight at this time as to whether that was deliberate or a
mistake.
If the contractor testified in court "Yeah Your Honor, I knew it was
being built in the wrong place but I really didn't care." the outcome
might be different then if he said "I thought I had moved it back to
the right line, I'm as shocked as anyone that it was STILL
encroaching, I don't know how this happened but it was an honest
mistake and the 1.5" error isn't hurting the guys property."
Good grief. This isn't a freaking $1mil concrete house that was built
on property the neighbor doesn't own. It's a freaking 20 ft fence.
What the hell exactly is so hard about the neighbor doing the right
thing and moving that fence? The total cost would be less than
going to a lawyer for an opinion.
Not my call. Assuming the posts are in concrete there will be some
work involved in moving it and when it's moved over that 1.5" what
will the net result be in any practical sense? Nothing. But I guess
that kind of thing would make you feel like a BIG MAN. Yeah mofo,
nobuddy gonna push me around.
And to return to what's been said before, given that you CAN build on
another property, and that people DO build on others property, the LAW
even has provisions for those bad bad bad people who did that
dastardly act to actually wind up OWNING the other person's property
thru the LEGAL means of ADVERSE POSSESSION. So VERY clearly the LAW
recognizes that people CAN and DO build on others property and has
even made LEGAL provisions to ACCEPT the encroachment.
Adverse possession is not specific to building on a property. And
again, that whole process takes 20 years and requires that the party
PAY THE TAXES on the property. It's a million light years from
what is going on here.
In AZ it doesn't require any payment of taxes and doesn't take 20
years but in other states it could well be different. In any case,
the point is the same even if you wish to ignore it.
Point? What point? This is not about adverse possession.
One thing I do agree with you on is that "the remedy is simple" in
this case. If you can't show any actual damage other then your pride
you will very likely have to live with it because quite frankly,
moving a fence over 1.5" is just silly and stupid when it affects
nothing of meaning. So the remedy is to get over it.
You must like letting people walk all over you. I for one,
don't. It's not just the 1.5", it's the principle of not
letting some skunk take advantage of you. Who is that neighbor
to decide what part of my property is or is not important? And
what's the big deal with him and/or his contractor eating it
and paying to move 40 ft of fence? Good grief...
Are you a new Yorker? You sound like one.
Lets fight over the
trivial, ...... So if it's the "principle" will you fight over this if
the error is a quarter inch?
You didn't answer the question. If this was quarter inch over the
line would you demand it be moved? How about 3/8 inch? Half inch?
Please, lets hear what your limit is since clearly you thing 1.5" is
too much. Lets get your lower limit and then think about how a judge
will react.
No, I'm not a New Yorker. I'm just an American who stands up for
my rights and won't let some neigbor skunk walk all over me.
Yeah, the NEIGHBOR surely must have instructed his contractor to "Go
screw that guy, build it 1.5" on his side and let him take me to
court. Obviously both owners and contractors just love to needlessly,
and for ZERO benefit, put themselves in a position to be sued and/or
to have to do work over.
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