"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:13:26 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:18:00 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
??? If there is no God then *everything* is predetermined. There
is
no such thing as free will choice.

The condition was that God didn't exist. If He does exist then you
can't say all things are God's will since there is therefore free
choice, and the choices made may be against his will.

You must be assuming God gives us free will; thus without a God, there
is no free will and all is predetermined.

You are exactly right :^). If there is only material then you are
only what the atoms in your body make you. There is no free will
there, merely the illusion of it. Free will must be something beyond
the physical, in fact it must be infinite or omnipotent for free will
to be in it's fullest, purest form. So the idea is free will comes
from God within us, for those who have God in them. As the Apostle
Peter said, those who have not God are like unreasoning animals, by
which I believe he meant they do not possess free will but are guided
by animal instinct, not moral choice.

John

Good grief! Is this what 'believers' think is going on?
No wonder I detest them all.

Really now, please explain to me how free will can come out of the
material world alone? If all there is is the material then everything
that will ever be, including whatever you "choose" to have for lunch
tomorrow, was predetermined at the instant of the big bang. Since all
you are is the chemical makeup of your body. Your body and your
experience, which was also predetermined, decides what you will
decide. Cause and effect goes all the way back to the big band and is
completely predictable, if you could know the complete state of the
material universe at that instant.

It also goes back to the axiom that nothing can create something equal
to or greater than itself. Materialism cannot create anything greater
than a robot. Albeit a very fancy and complex one perhaps, but
nevertheless a robot (at best) :^).

John

I cannot buy that 'axiom' and, by extension, your entire argument.
An axiom by definition has a proof that can be tested.
This is nothing but a well crafted collection of words for the ignorant to
swallow.
Throughout history real progress in all things (good and bad) has been made
by ignoring the edicts of the 'holy men'.
The worst kind of 'progress', generally always bad, has been under their
control - and this continues to be true!
Lack of progress is observed when the holy men prevail - look to the middle
east for the most recent example. Africa also fits this criteria.
Therefor the 'axiom' should read "To create something equal to or greater
than what exists it is only necessary to assume it is possible."
Belief in a supreme being is not required and in fact such belief is
stiltifying.
I am under no illusion that my humble self can lead you to 'the light' but I
must thank you, in that your prounouncement that "there is no free will
without god" has utterly convinced me that the 'believers' are totally wrong
and my instincts (animal instincts by your definition) that rejected that
kind of thinking have served me well.

Regards.
Ken.