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  #1   Report Post  
Brian Elfert
 
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Default Shop lighting: magnetic or electronic ballasts?

I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?

Brian Elfert
  #2   Report Post  
David
 
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Mine are 100%, absolutely, totally, definitely, for sure, QUIET.
Besides which, they weren't even expensive! The bulbs have lasted since
I installed them about a year or so ago. Before that I was replacing
bulbs left and right.

Dave

Brian Elfert wrote:
I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?

Brian Elfert

  #3   Report Post  
Bill B
 
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Quieter, more efficient.

And, most will work just fine when the garage is COLD, the magnetics flicker
and flash until they warm up.

"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
...
I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?

Brian Elfert



  #4   Report Post  
Rick Stein
 
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I just installed 8' flourescent fixtures in my new shop - electronic
balasts, each with 4, 4' T-8 bulbs. They fixtures are quiet, start up in
the cold, and according to the seller, the new T-8 bulbs last far longer
than the older bulbs. Also, they have more light output. Inexpensive
fixtures as well. . .

Rick
http://www.thunderworksinc.com

Brian Elfert wrote:
I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?

Brian Elfert


  #5   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article , Brian Elfert wrote:
I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?


My shop lights have magnetic ballasts. I can't hear them over the noise of the
dust collector, or through my ear protectors even if there are no power tools
running.

As others have noted, there are good reasons for using electronic ballasts,
but IMO the noise level of magnetic ballasts is not an important consideration
in a shop.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


  #6   Report Post  
woodstuff
 
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"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
...
I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?

Brian Elfert


Brian,
Electronic T-8 are the only way to go. As I have time, I am replacing all
the ballasts in my shop.
I have replaced 6 and have 13 more to go (larger shop).

woodstuff


  #7   Report Post  
Todd Fatheree
 
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article , Brian Elfert

wrote:
I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?


My shop lights have magnetic ballasts. I can't hear them over the noise of

the
dust collector, or through my ear protectors even if there are no power

tools
running.

As others have noted, there are good reasons for using electronic

ballasts,
but IMO the noise level of magnetic ballasts is not an important

consideration
in a shop.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)


Well, speaking for myself, there are often times when I'm in the shop when
(gasp) no power tools are running. Personally, I got tired of listening to
60-cycle hum and put in T8 fixtures with electronic ballasts.

todd


  #8   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article , "Todd Fatheree" wrote:
Well, speaking for myself, there are often times when I'm in the shop when
(gasp) no power tools are running. Personally, I got tired of listening to
60-cycle hum and put in T8 fixtures with electronic ballasts.


I too often have such times, but I usually have a radio on, and don't really
notice the hum much. Just a matter of personal preference.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #9   Report Post  
Brian Elfert
 
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"woodstuff" writes:


Brian,
Electronic T-8 are the only way to go. As I have time, I am replacing all
the ballasts in my shop.
I have replaced 6 and have 13 more to go (larger shop).


I thought about replacing the ballasts, but they aren't exactly cheap,
plus don't you have to replace the sockets too? All of the lights with
electronics ballasts have T-8 instead of T-12 bulbs.

I have lights with magnetic ballasts, but I am putting in a suspended
ceiling and want to go with new troffer lights that go in the ceiling.

I am having a heck of a time find 2x2 troffer lights with electronic
ballasts. Grainger has them for $66, but I just paid $38 for the 2x4
version at Lowes.

Brian Elfert
  #10   Report Post  
Brian Elfert
 
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Rick Stein writes:

I just installed 8' flourescent fixtures in my new shop - electronic
balasts, each with 4, 4' T-8 bulbs. They fixtures are quiet, start up in
the cold, and according to the seller, the new T-8 bulbs last far longer
than the older bulbs. Also, they have more light output. Inexpensive
fixtures as well. . .


I am finding the fixtures with electronic ballasts seem to cost about 20%
more or so if you are looking at decent fixtures.

Nothing compares pricewise with the $10 shop lights you can find, but
those are generally junk. Home Depot does have a $8 shop light with
electronic ballast, but I am sure it is junk.

I bought three 2x4 troffer fixtures with electronic ballasts at Lowes, but
I can't find 2x2 troffer fixtures with electronic ballasts at any home
imporovement or home lighting store.

Brian Elfert


  #11   Report Post  
Jim Behning
 
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I have installed dropped ceilings where the customer originally
planned on 2x2 light fixture but balked at the fixture and bulb price.
You may need to go to a real lighting store to get the 2x2 or else
special order from the chain store.

http://www.brite-lite.com/Products/c_series.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...ixture&spell=1

Brian Elfert wrote:

Rick Stein writes:

I just installed 8' flourescent fixtures in my new shop - electronic
balasts, each with 4, 4' T-8 bulbs. They fixtures are quiet, start up in
the cold, and according to the seller, the new T-8 bulbs last far longer
than the older bulbs. Also, they have more light output. Inexpensive
fixtures as well. . .


I am finding the fixtures with electronic ballasts seem to cost about 20%
more or so if you are looking at decent fixtures.

Nothing compares pricewise with the $10 shop lights you can find, but
those are generally junk. Home Depot does have a $8 shop light with
electronic ballast, but I am sure it is junk.

I bought three 2x4 troffer fixtures with electronic ballasts at Lowes, but
I can't find 2x2 troffer fixtures with electronic ballasts at any home
imporovement or home lighting store.

Brian Elfert


  #12   Report Post  
SawDust (Pat)
 
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In my neck of the woods. The smaller electronic ballasts are easier
and less expensive to replace when the time comes. The ones we use
at work, your just inserting the wire into a conector, versus having
to wire nut all the connections. They're idoit proof.

The only drawback - they last a long time - but when they go, they
just go. No prolonged humming to keep reminding you about changing
that ballast.

Personally, if your talking new lighting and you are, I would look at
low voltage halogen. It's a pure light, no color shifts like you get
with Fluorescent. It's bright without being an uncomfortable
brightness "Like you get with the fluorescent daylight tubes".

If you have a chance go into a lighting showroom and see the
differences between the two products. It's worth the time.


Pat



On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:56:09 -0700, "Bill B"
wrote:

Quieter, more efficient.

And, most will work just fine when the garage is COLD, the magnetics flicker
and flash until they warm up.

"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
...
I am going to install new flourescent lights in my shop. Do electronic
ballasts really have no hum like I read somewhere.

Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?

Brian Elfert



  #13   Report Post  
Brian Elfert
 
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"SawDust (Pat)" writes:

Personally, if your talking new lighting and you are, I would look at
low voltage halogen. It's a pure light, no color shifts like you get
with Fluorescent. It's bright without being an uncomfortable
brightness "Like you get with the fluorescent daylight tubes".


This is for my workshop. Wouldn't halogen create heat like crazy and run
my electric bill up? Has something changed in halogen technology?

I've been switching to compact flourescent for lights in the rest of the
house that are used a lot. I find the light quality is fine once the
bulbs warm up for 15 to 20 seconds. It may be coincidence, but my last
electric bill was down by 1/3 from last year and the outside temps were 5
degrees colder than last year.

Brian Elfert
  #14   Report Post  
Brian Elfert
 
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Jim Behning writes:

I have installed dropped ceilings where the customer originally
planned on 2x2 light fixture but balked at the fixture and bulb price.
You may need to go to a real lighting store to get the 2x2 or else
special order from the chain store.


I tried a bunch of regular lighting stores and none of them had troffer
light fixtures except special order. I even tried the largest lighting
store in the metro area and they don't carry troffers period. (I figured
they would have them as a stock item.) One other lighting store that
looked promising wasn't open.

I'm now considering going back to 2x4 as your comments on price make
sense. The 2x2 fixtures are going to cost at least as much as the 2x4s,
plus the bulbs cost almost four times as much.

The reason I wanted to use some 2x2s is because I am using the Ceiling Max
grid system that screws to the floor joists. I have floor trusses every
24 inches, so the lights will fit in between. Obstacles running through
the floor trusses means 2x4s have to be placed in an odd pattern to fit
where 2x2s can go in a straight line.

I just realized that troffer type light fixtures might not work period.
I'll have to try one of the 2x4s I already bought.

Brian Elfert
  #15   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article , Brian Elfert wrote:
Jim Behning writes:

I have installed dropped ceilings where the customer originally
planned on 2x2 light fixture but balked at the fixture and bulb price.
You may need to go to a real lighting store to get the 2x2 or else
special order from the chain store.


I tried a bunch of regular lighting stores and none of them had troffer
light fixtures except special order. I even tried the largest lighting
store in the metro area and they don't carry troffers period. (I figured
they would have them as a stock item.) One other lighting store that
looked promising wasn't open.


Home Depot, Lowe's, and Menards keep them in stock.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


  #16   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
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Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Brian Elfert

wrote:
Jim Behning writes:

I have installed dropped ceilings where the customer originally
planned on 2x2 light fixture but balked at the fixture and bulb

price.
You may need to go to a real lighting store to get the 2x2 or else
special order from the chain store.


I tried a bunch of regular lighting stores and none of them had

troffer
light fixtures except special order. I even tried the largest

lighting
store in the metro area and they don't carry troffers period. (I

figured
they would have them as a stock item.) One other lighting store

that
looked promising wasn't open.


Home Depot, Lowe's, and Menards keep them in stock.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his

butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


I did T-8 lighting in my shop last fall. It has worked out very, very
well. I recommend buying high color rendition bulbs. I bought mine at
www.goodmart.com for a very reasonable price. The light quality is
superior and has made longer days in the shop much more enjoyable.

GL

  #18   Report Post  
Teamcasa
 
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Any reason to choose electronic ballasts over magnetic besides noise?

Brian Elfert


I would look into the new T5 or T5HO. A little more money but they have
significantly better color shifting properties and are more efficient. They
are also much brighter that T8 or standard flouresents.

Dave



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  #22   Report Post  
Ross A. Virostko
 
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I installed T8 fixtures in my new garage shop last fall. The heat did not "go
in" until Feb and the units lit up like incandescents. They take a little while
to get to full brightness and heat, not that its in, does help them get there
faster.

They do cause some radio interference on my favorite radio station - a very high
pitched whine. That may be because the radio is on a shelf right up by the ceiling.

I choose the T8s not because of the startup, but because they are supposed to
produce more light for less money. Just a Scotsman I guess.

Dick Snyder wrote:
I have electronic ballasts in my unheated basement where I have my shop. It
gets down to 50 some nights in the winter. Never a flicker with electronic
ballasts. I will never have anything else.

  #23   Report Post  
 
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I switched my shop to electronic ballasts because of the cold start
problem. Many electronic ballasts will start even at 0 degrees
Fahrenheit. My old super cheap shop lights that came with the house
would flicker for ten minutes until they warmed up. Oh, and they eat
bulbs too.

Not all electronic ballasts are silent. I have some that hum a little
bit. I've taken to buying fixtures with magnetic ballasts and
immediately replacing them with electronic ballasts of my choice in
order to get something well behaved. A decent electronic ballast can
be had for $15 or so. The pins on T12s and T8s are exactly the same,
so you can retrofit magnetic ballast fixtures with electronic ballasts.
(Maybe if your fixture has starters you'd have trouble.) Another
thing to be aware of with electronic ballasts is that you can get
special high output ones that give more light from the same bulbs, and
also special low output ones that save you energy and give you less
light from the same bulbs.

Regarding color quality, there are two factors to be aware of when you
buy bulbs. One is the color temperature. If you get 3000 K bulbs you
will have yellow light, like you get from an incandescent. If you get
5000 K bulbs you will have bluer light, more like daylight. I have the
5000 K bulbs in my windowless basement shop.

Regarding light quality you need to look at the color rendering index
or CRI. This indicates whether the light is of good quality. Somehow
CRI measures how well the spectrum is filled out. (I have never found
a satisfactory explanation of what EXACTLY it means.) Incandescent
lights have a CRI of 100 which is the best possible.

The quality of the light has no intrinsic connection to whether you are
using T8's, T12's, T5's or anything else about the shape of the bulb.
They can make bulbs in any shape to have whatever light characteristics
they want. It does appear that not much is available in T12s. I use
T8s that have a CRI of 86 which seems to be adequate. I believe that
T5's might be more efficient than T8's, but probably not enough that
you'd really see the difference in your electric bill. (The jump from
magnetic ballasts running two T12's at 80 W to an electronic ballast
that gives the same light running two T8's at 54 W is much bigger.)

If you experience radio interference you might try switching to a
different brand or even just a different model of electronic ballast.
Electronic ballasts operate at much higher frequencies than the old
magnetic ones which is why they don't flicker or hum. If they happen
to be leaking at the frequency of your radio station you can get
interference. Advance makes a ballast called PowrKut that is
specifically designed not to generate radio interference.

  #24   Report Post  
mac davis
 
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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:23:34 -0500, "Ross A. Virostko"
wrote:

I installed T8 fixtures in my new garage shop last fall. The heat did not "go
in" until Feb and the units lit up like incandescents. They take a little while
to get to full brightness and heat, not that its in, does help them get there
faster.

They do cause some radio interference on my favorite radio station - a very high
pitched whine. That may be because the radio is on a shelf right up by the ceiling.

I choose the T8s not because of the startup, but because they are supposed to
produce more light for less money. Just a Scotsman I guess.

The more for less is a consideration, too... not so much now, but within a year
or so, I hope to move the shop to Baja, and power conservation will be much more
important..



mac

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  #26   Report Post  
WillR
 
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mac davis wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:23:34 -0500, "Ross A. Virostko"
wrote:


I installed T8 fixtures in my new garage shop last fall. The heat did not "go
in" until Feb and the units lit up like incandescents. They take a little while
to get to full brightness and heat, not that its in, does help them get there
faster.

They do cause some radio interference on my favorite radio station - a very high
pitched whine. That may be because the radio is on a shelf right up by the ceiling.

I choose the T8s not because of the startup, but because they are supposed to
produce more light for less money. Just a Scotsman I guess.


The more for less is a consideration, too... not so much now, but within a year
or so, I hope to move the shop to Baja, and power conservation will be much more
important..


Actually if it is like some of the places I have lived and worked there
.... having any power is a greater consideration.

Reliable power is of course a significant issue there as well. Just make
sure you have a UPS for your computer system...





mac

Please remove splinters before emailing





--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
  #27   Report Post  
mac davis
 
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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:41:19 -0500, WillR
wrote:
snip
The more for less is a consideration, too... not so much now, but within a year
or so, I hope to move the shop to Baja, and power conservation will be much more
important..


Actually if it is like some of the places I have lived and worked there
... having any power is a greater consideration.

Reliable power is of course a significant issue there as well. Just make
sure you have a UPS for your computer system...

yeah, we have a good ups on our 2 main computers and those will go with us..
The way they're progressing in the area that we're building, the power will be
in before we start the first house..
The economy part comes in with the pricing of the electricity... since the
government controls the power, it's priced so that the Mexican people can afford
it, about 2 1/2 cents a kilowatt...
OTOH, after a fairly small amount of kilowatts, (the amount a middle class
Mexican family would use), the price goes WAY up....
For most of the folks we've talked to that have lived thee a while, they seldom
hit the higher rate, but none of them have a shop, either..


mac

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  #28   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
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mac davis wrote in
:

snip
yeah, we have a good ups on our 2 main computers and those will go
with us.. The way they're progressing in the area that we're building,
the power will be in before we start the first house..
The economy part comes in with the pricing of the electricity... since
the government controls the power, it's priced so that the Mexican
people can afford it, about 2 1/2 cents a kilowatt...
OTOH, after a fairly small amount of kilowatts, (the amount a middle
class Mexican family would use), the price goes WAY up....
For most of the folks we've talked to that have lived thee a while,
they seldom hit the higher rate, but none of them have a shop,
either..


At the risk of sending this thread completely down the toilet...

Has anyone investigated what it would take to run a shop off-grid? Say
with photovoltaic or similar? (No waterwheels or human powered pitsaws
considered, please.)

Patriarch
  #29   Report Post  
Tim Douglass
 
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On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:21:08 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:

At the risk of sending this thread completely down the toilet...

Has anyone investigated what it would take to run a shop off-grid? Say
with photovoltaic or similar? (No waterwheels or human powered pitsaws
considered, please.)


Photovoltaic is way too expensive and inefficient to run a shop. To
get off grid you would need to look at wind power, hydro (waterwheel
or generator) or steam or internal combustion motor generator.
Depending on the area steam may have the best potential since you
could use just about anything for fuel.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com
  #30   Report Post  
J. Clarke
 
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Tim Douglass wrote:

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:21:08 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:

At the risk of sending this thread completely down the toilet...

Has anyone investigated what it would take to run a shop off-grid? Say
with photovoltaic or similar? (No waterwheels or human powered pitsaws
considered, please.)


Photovoltaic is way too expensive and inefficient to run a shop. To
get off grid you would need to look at wind power, hydro (waterwheel
or generator) or steam or internal combustion motor generator.
Depending on the area steam may have the best potential since you
could use just about anything for fuel.


However unless you have a geothermal source steam's also likely to be the
most expensive--either up front for a high pressure boiler and turbine or
life-cycle in fuel costs for a low-efficiency low-pressure system.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh,
and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #31   Report Post  
Morris Dovey
 
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Patriarch wrote:

Has anyone investigated what it would take to run a shop
off-grid? Say with photovoltaic or similar?


I have done some investigation for the upper midwest part of the
USA (Minnesota and Iowa). Wind and thermal solar (concentrating
reflectors either directly powering stirling cycle engines which
turn generators or producing steam) appear to be the best choices
at this time. AFAICT, PV panels and fuel cells don't appear to be
good choices at the current state of art.

A lot depends on the shop. Not much is needed for a neander-hobby
operation other than enough power for some lighting and a
fractional horsepower motor. Obviously you'll need more to run a
3 HP Unisauer - and you'll need a /lot/ more if you have a shop
full of 10 - 40 HP tools (especially if you power up more than
one at a time.)

About half of the heat for my 50'x50' shop is provided by a
single 6'x12' solar heating panel. I've determined that two more
such panels would be adequate to keep the shop warm enough to be
comfortable working in Levis and t-shirt on moderately sunny
winter days.

My personal approach has been to do what's possible with the
resources at hand and to keep alert for ways to improve on what I
have. The general commercial context appears to be that the
players with anything worthwhile to offer want to take huge
profits at the front end - which makes their technology/products
unaffordable to most of us until their patents run out and the
Pacific Rim producers take over...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
  #32   Report Post  
mac davis
 
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On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:21:08 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:

mac davis wrote in
:

snip
yeah, we have a good ups on our 2 main computers and those will go
with us.. The way they're progressing in the area that we're building,
the power will be in before we start the first house..
The economy part comes in with the pricing of the electricity... since
the government controls the power, it's priced so that the Mexican
people can afford it, about 2 1/2 cents a kilowatt...
OTOH, after a fairly small amount of kilowatts, (the amount a middle
class Mexican family would use), the price goes WAY up....
For most of the folks we've talked to that have lived thee a while,
they seldom hit the higher rate, but none of them have a shop,
either..


At the risk of sending this thread completely down the toilet...

Has anyone investigated what it would take to run a shop off-grid? Say
with photovoltaic or similar? (No waterwheels or human powered pitsaws
considered, please.)

Patriarch


i doubt very much that this would be practical...
Harping on the Baja thing again, the 1st tract of homes on our "rancho" were in
a designated solar area... meaning that they would never get power..
Everyone thought that this would be very cool in Baja but the folks can't sell
their homes now (some only 1 or 2 years old) for near what they paid to build
them..
After $10,000 US for a solar system, the generator kicks in if you run the
microwave or a large hair dryer, so I can't see running any kind of power tool
off them..



mac

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