I am in process making my second wood plane (Rock Maple body,
Goncalo Alves Sole, Hock Irons.). It's a great way to get a quality
hand plane that means a little more to you as you use it knowing that
it's your own creation. I've read David Finck's book "Making &
Mastering Wood Planes" that has a great deal of Krenov influence. They
discuss one manner of making the cross pin. Having worked with my
first and experienced some frustrations of getting the wedge and cross
pin to sit as tight as I'd like, I was wondering if there are other
means of making the cross pin? By using the tenon style cross pin with
a flat side for the wedge to sit against, you have to have the two
match PREFECTLY. My question is... has anyone ever used ¼" or 5/16"
brass rod, cut to length between the cheeks for the wedge to work off
of? Would the brass and Rock Maple have enough friction between the
two to create enough tension to hold the irons? By Using brass rod,
your only machining one surface that must be perfectly flat. You would
not want to glue the rod into the cheeks for expansion purposes, etc
but it just seems to be a good way of creating a solid surface to use
the wedge against. Just looking for a different way to skin a cat.

Thanks,

Steve

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:14:52 -0500, Steve wrote:

... has
anyone ever used ¼" or 5/16" brass rod, cut to length between the cheeks
for the wedge to work off of? ...

I believe that's exactly how David Marks did his:
http://djmarks.com/photo.asp?image=/photos/woodworks/606_handplane1.jpg

--
Joe Wells

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:14:52 -0500, Steve wrote:

Would the brass and Rock Maple have enough friction between the
two to create enough tension to hold the irons? By Using brass rod,
your only machining one surface that must be perfectly flat.

My planes so far haven't used pins; I've been cutting out the mortises.
That said, I've been thinking about a pin-style. Wouldn't brass be too
soft? I've had brass rod bend when I used it in a cam clamp. Even mild
steel would be stiffer. (True, brass would be prettier.)

The Krenov style plane plans I've seen have the triangular cross piece
mounted loosely. Sure, you have to make the face perfectly flat, but it's
supposed to pivot on its round tenons to fit the wedge.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:26:05 -0600, Joe Wells
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:14:52 -0500, Steve wrote:

... has
anyone ever used ¼" or 5/16" brass rod, cut to length between the cheeks
for the wedge to work off of? ...

I believe that's exactly how David Marks did his:
http://djmarks.com/photo.asp?image=/photos/woodworks/606_handplane1.jpg

Joe,
I appreciate that ... makes me feel better that my thinking wasn't
way out there! ....

Thanks,

Steve

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:42:12 -0600, Australopithecus scobis
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:14:52 -0500, Steve wrote:

Would the brass and Rock Maple have enough friction between the
two to create enough tension to hold the irons? By Using brass rod,
your only machining one surface that must be perfectly flat.

My planes so far haven't used pins; I've been cutting out the mortises.
That said, I've been thinking about a pin-style. Wouldn't brass be too
soft? I've had brass rod bend when I used it in a cam clamp. Even mild
steel would be stiffer. (True, brass would be prettier.)

The Krenov style plane plans I've seen have the triangular cross piece
mounted loosely. Sure, you have to make the face perfectly flat, but it's
supposed to pivot on its round tenons to fit the wedge.

My first plane used the triangular cross pin mounted using a tenon in
each cheek. It looks nice, but getting full pressure across the pin
and wede can be a more of a trial and error deal when making the
wedge. You can see where the pressure comes from when making the
wedge. I still have trouble with the irons wanting to move (very small
amount, only noticable when planing for some time) and feel that there
might be a better way around this.

As far as the brass bending. I'm thinking 5/16" solid brass between
the cheeks (2" span) ... it'll take quite a load to bend.

Thanks for the response.

Steve

Steve wrote in news:q6su315g5di1lv85vsdm257nop9i880v8i@
4ax.com:

I am in process making my second wood plane (Rock Maple body,
Goncalo Alves Sole, Hock Irons.).snip My question is... has anyone ever
used ¼" or 5/16"
brass rod, cut to length between the cheeks for the wedge to work off
of?

I used a walnut dowel for my first one. That's the process that was shown
in one of the FWW articles written by one of the instructors at College of
the Redwoods, which is where Finck took some training.

It's lasted a year or so now, working just fine. That's not the plane I
tend to reach for first, but it works fairly well.

I'm glad I built it, but it hasn't replaced the metal planes in my arsenal.
And it didn't save me money by any realistic evaluation. There's no way I
could make a noticeably better wooden handplane than that which Steve
Knight sells, at a very reasonable price.

Patriarch,
who's almost 50% done with the hand tool cabinet, loosely modeled on
charlie b's version...

what angle did you make the wedge at? 10 degrees seems to work really well.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

I've made a couple of Krenov style wooden hand planes with brass rods
and they work great. It's a lot easier than making a wooden cross-pin
that is straight and square. They also take up less space. One thing
I've found that helps is to file a flat face along the length of the
rod about 1/8 of an inch or so wide (you probably need a 5/16 or 3/8
rod to do this). This prevents the curve of the rod from digging into
the wedge -- which can make the wedge a bit unstable at times since its
constantly being dented out of flat. A flat surface against the wedge
works better.

And brass is plenty stong across such a short span.

Robert

Steve wrote:
I am in process making my second wood plane (Rock Maple body,
Goncalo Alves Sole, Hock Irons.). It's a great way to get a quality
hand plane that means a little more to you as you use it knowing that
it's your own creation. I've read David Finck's book "Making &
Mastering Wood Planes" that has a great deal of Krenov influence. They
discuss one manner of making the cross pin. Having worked with my
first and experienced some frustrations of getting the wedge and cross
pin to sit as tight as I'd like, I was wondering if there are other
means of making the cross pin? By using the tenon style cross pin with
a flat side for the wedge to sit against, you have to have the two
match PREFECTLY. My question is... has anyone ever used ¼" or 5/16"
brass rod, cut to length between the cheeks for the wedge to work off
of? Would the brass and Rock Maple have enough friction between the
two to create enough tension to hold the irons? By Using brass rod,
your only machining one surface that must be perfectly flat. You would
not want to glue the rod into the cheeks for expansion purposes, etc
but it just seems to be a good way of creating a solid surface to use
the wedge against. Just looking for a different way to skin a cat.

Thanks,

Steve

That Krenov-style pivoting cross pin adds a quantum level of difficulty
to making a plane. Making the plane is fairly easy but that tenoned
cross pin is unnecessarily difficult. We just use a 1/2" dowel for our
plane kits. Works just fine and I haven't seen any deformation of the
wedge from it. And since it's wood glued into wood, there is less
weakening of the side than there is with the pivoting pin. The hard part
is finding accurate 1/2" dowels -- the ones at the hardware store are
always undersized. (We get them from Woodcraft.)

--
Ron Hock
HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:39:01 -0800, Steve Knight wrote:

what angle did you make the wedge at? 10 degrees seems to work really well.

Is it easier to cut angles expressed as ratios, rather than degrees? One
can set a bevel gauge to, say, 1:12, with dividers and straightedge. Using
numbers on a protractor introduces uncertainty. For a one-off, who cares;
I'm just curious about what works for folks who have made more planes than
I have.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

That Krenov-style pivoting cross pin adds a quantum level of difficulty
to making a plane. Making the plane is fairly easy but that tenoned
cross pin is unnecessarily difficult. We just use a 1/2" dowel for our
plane kits. Works just fine and I haven't seen any deformation of the
wedge from it. And since it's wood glued into wood, there is less
weakening of the side than there is with the pivoting pin. The hard part
is finding accurate 1/2" dowels -- the ones at the hardware store are
always undersized. (We get them from Woodcraft.)

very true but I just thought of a easy way to do it. cut a triangle just large
enough to drill through with a hole the size of your dowel. now you have a pivot
point that will work well and change with the wedge. I did this on my infills
and it works well. plus it is pretty simple to do.
don't you just love finding accurate dowels? what a pain it is. I bring a block
pre drilled and measure them when I buy (G)

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:02:11 -0800, Steve Knight wrote:

very true but I just thought of a easy way to do it. cut a triangle just
large enough to drill through with a hole the size of your dowel. now
you have a pivot point that will work well and change with the wedge. I
did this on my infills and it works well. plus it is pretty simple to
do.

Wouldn't have to be a triangle; off-side could be any aesthetic shape. Be
stronger, too. Use the brass rod for the pivot: less friction, and you
don't have to find the good dowels. Oooh--use two short brass dowels with
a compression spring in the middle. Think watch-band pins. No ugly holes
in the sides...

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

It was somewhere outside Barstow when Steve Knight
wrote:

very true but I just thought of a easy way to do it. cut a triangle just large
enough to drill through with a hole the size of your dowel. now you have a pivot
point that will work well and change with the wedge.

I have a user-made block plane dating to the '20s or '30s. It has one
of these pivoting pins, an oval with one flattened surface. Assembly
is quite neat - one side is a small circular hole to take the tenon
pin, the other is a clearance hole to allow it to be installed.
Because it's an oval, the clearance hole is rotated 90° so that the
pin is only loose when the iron is out. Normally the tenon pin is
pushed to one narrow end of the oval hole, where it fits quite snugly.
--
Smert' spamionam

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:16:53 -0800, Ron Hock
wrote:

Steve wrote:
I am in process making my second wood plane (Rock Maple body,
Goncalo Alves Sole, Hock Irons.). It's a great way to get a quality
hand plane that means a little more to you as you use it knowing that
it's your own creation. I've read David Finck's book "Making &
Mastering Wood Planes" that has a great deal of Krenov influence. They
discuss one manner of making the cross pin. Having worked with my
first and experienced some frustrations of getting the wedge and cross
pin to sit as tight as I'd like, I was wondering if there are other
means of making the cross pin? By using the tenon style cross pin with
a flat side for the wedge to sit against, you have to have the two
match PREFECTLY. My question is... has anyone ever used ¼" or 5/16"
brass rod, cut to length between the cheeks for the wedge to work off
of? Would the brass and Rock Maple have enough friction between the
two to create enough tension to hold the irons? By Using brass rod,
your only machining one surface that must be perfectly flat. You would
not want to glue the rod into the cheeks for expansion purposes, etc
but it just seems to be a good way of creating a solid surface to use
the wedge against. Just looking for a different way to skin a cat.

Thanks,

Steve

That Krenov-style pivoting cross pin adds a quantum level of difficulty
to making a plane. Making the plane is fairly easy but that tenoned
cross pin is unnecessarily difficult. We just use a 1/2" dowel for our
plane kits. Works just fine and I haven't seen any deformation of the
wedge from it. And since it's wood glued into wood, there is less
weakening of the side than there is with the pivoting pin. The hard part
is finding accurate 1/2" dowels -- the ones at the hardware store are
always undersized. (We get them from Woodcraft.)


Ron,
I certainly do appreciate your response and help. I'll be opting for
the 1/2" dowel. The tenoned cross pin and wedge (first hand made
plane) just do not seem to want to work together, and I'm seeing
slight movement over a planing session.

Thanks again,

Steve

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:02:11 -0800, Steve Knight
wrote:


That Krenov-style pivoting cross pin adds a quantum level of difficulty
to making a plane. Making the plane is fairly easy but that tenoned
cross pin is unnecessarily difficult. We just use a 1/2" dowel for our
plane kits. Works just fine and I haven't seen any deformation of the
wedge from it. And since it's wood glued into wood, there is less
weakening of the side than there is with the pivoting pin. The hard part
is finding accurate 1/2" dowels -- the ones at the hardware store are
always undersized. (We get them from Woodcraft.)

very true but I just thought of a easy way to do it. cut a triangle just large
enough to drill through with a hole the size of your dowel. now you have a pivot
point that will work well and change with the wedge. I did this on my infills
and it works well. plus it is pretty simple to do.
don't you just love finding accurate dowels? what a pain it is. I bring a block
pre drilled and measure them when I buy (G)

Steve Knight and Ron Hock respond to a question that I put on the
group. I quite honestly didn't expect to get this type of response ..
and is quite impressive that these two gentlemen take time to help.

Steve,
I appreciate your suggestion and will give it a try. Gosh knows ...
if it comes from you or Ron .... it is worth doing or trying.

Thank you,

Steve

Steve Knight and Ron Hock respond to a question that I put on the
group. I quite honestly didn't expect to get this type of response ..
and is quite impressive that these two gentlemen take time to help.

Steve,
I appreciate your suggestion and will give it a try. Gosh knows ...
if it comes from you or Ron .... it is worth doing or trying.


no problem at all.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:02:11 -0800, Steve Knight wrote:
very true but I just thought of a easy way to do it. cut a triangle
just
large enough to drill through with a hole the size of your dowel. now

you have a pivot point that will work well and change with the wedge.
I
did this on my infills and it works well. plus it is pretty simple to

do.


I've made cross pins the way Steve describes. You have to be careful
because it's easy to split the triangular shaped piece with the hole in
it when you are putting the dowel through it. If the dowel is at all
tight it may well crack the triangular piece. I cracked a couple cross
pins this way.

Robert

I've made cross pins the way Steve describes. You have to be careful
because it's easy to split the triangular shaped piece with the hole in
it when you are putting the dowel through it. If the dowel is at all
tight it may well crack the triangular piece. I cracked a couple cross
pins this way.

on something like this you want a bit of a loose fit so the piece and pivot.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On the cover of David Finck's book is a very small plane with a brass
pin.

Steve Knight wrote:

snip

don't you just love finding accurate dowels? what a pain it is. I bring a block
pre drilled and measure them when I buy (G)


You don't have the Lie Nielsen dowel plate? 3/8" thick hardened
steel
with accuarate holes. Set it over a doghole in the bench, grab a
mallet
and tap/whack away!

or

For the more frugal in our midst - one of those metal (not the
plastic
ones Handy Man foists on the unsuspecting) drill size guides works
fairly well and has more sizes. If you can find a machinist's
version
better yet since they're thicker and harder.

charlie b