I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

"loutent" wrote in message
...
I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

Go ahead and use the circuit. The circuit breaker is there to protect your
wires. Your saw probably has an overload cutout on the motor.

Plugging your saw into a bigger circuit is like plugging a night light into
a circuit that could power a toaster. No problem.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:16:31 -0500, loutent wrote:

I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Roger's analogy is right. You don't sweat running your electric shaver
on that 20A bathroom breaker, do you?

The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
240V circuit (North America).


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"loutent" wrote in message
...
I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Use the 30 amp. Also, the power would be hot, hot, ground and NOT neutral,
hot, ground.
SH - The "used to wire houses" woodworker

Lou,



Sounds like you're confusing 110 with 220



To run your Griz Table Saw (I have the 1023Z) you need to add a 220 breaker (looks like 2 breakers in 1 and takes up 2 slots) to you panel and then have a 4 wire cable (Neutral, ground, 110 Phase A, 110 Phase B) run to the saw.



The gauge of the wire is determined by the distance the saw is from the panel and the amount of current it will draw (in your case 20 Amps). There's a formula for this but I don't have it handy so you should really have someone who knows what they're doing (electrician?) help you if you have any doubt about doing it yourself!



Good Luck



BAF

Woodworking Business Apprentice Program




"loutent" wrote in message ...
I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

"loutent" wrote in message
...

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Grizzly is probably referring to a minimum vs. an exact recommendation.
Use it. I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.
Like Roger has indicated, the 20 amp breaker is not to protect you saw.

You "can" do it, as long as you use a 30a plug and outlet.

Personally I would do the whole thing as 20a. Code only requires the
breaker to protect the house wiring, but it is nice when it protects the
machine wiring also. I bet when you compare 20a outlet/plugs to 30a, it is
actually cheaper to replace the breaker.

"LRod" wrote in message
...

The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
240V circuit (North America).

With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set up.
Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you call
the other 3?

Leon wrote:

....
...I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.

Don't think that's code unless you're using the dryer outlet or the saw,
not both?

LRod writes:
There is no neutral in a 240V circuit (North America).

There can be, it's a 4-wire circuit (black hot, red hot, white
neutral, bare ground) used for multi-voltage appliances like ovens and
dryers (240 for heat, 120 for lights, etc).

But a 3-wire 240 doesn't have a neutral. Or at least, it isn't
*supposed* to have a neutral. Circuits wired for 240v without a
neutral *should* have the white wire tagged with red tape or something
to indicate that it's not a neutral.

Lou said:
I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground, neutral, hot) coming from a 30
amp (unused) breaker
Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20?

Lou, This sounds like a 110v Circuit. You need 220V for that saw. Change
the single pole (assumed) 30A 110V breaker with a dual pole breaker (20A -
220V).

Change or tag/lable the white wire as your second leg hot and you're good to
go.

Dave

"Leon" wrote in message
om...

"LRod" wrote in message
...

The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
240V circuit (North America).

With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set up.
Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you call
the other 3?

Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.
SH

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

...
...I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.

Don't think that's code unless you're using the dryer outlet or the saw,
not both?

Perhaps. Most of the time it is one or the other but both together is still
about 12 amp under the circuit capacity IIRC.

"Slowhand" I'm@work wrote in message
...

Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.
SH


That's what I was thinking.

In article ,
loutent wrote:

I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

If you have ground/neutral/hot, it's 110, not 220. If you're trying to
run a motor designed for 220, you need to have two hots (one from column
A and one from column B). Typically you would do this by putting on a
different receptacle and moving rewiring the panel side of the circuit
to go to a double-pole breaker. Standard practice is to wrap red tape
around the white wire at both ends to indicate that it's now a hot
conductor.

Be that as it may, amperage requirements are *minimum* requirements. If
the machine needs 20 amps, it's perfectly fine to plug it into a 30 amp
circuit. It won't hurt the circuit and it won't hurt the machine.

You do need to make sure you've got the voltage right. Many motors can
be configured to run on either 110 or 220 by moving a jumper or
connecting to different terminals, but make sure you got it right. A
mixup in either direction won't be good.

Do yourself a favor. Ask a qualified electrician. The advice you get here
will be good/bad/bull****. Do you know how to tell which one is which? If
you did, you wouldn't have to ask. Ask the professional, it's worth it.

"loutent" wrote in message
...
I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

Leon wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

...
...I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.

Don't think that's code unless you're using the dryer outlet or the saw,
not both?

Perhaps. Most of the time it is one or the other but both together is still
about 12 amp under the circuit capacity IIRC.

Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...

Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
reason to need to ensure compliance...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Perhaps. Most of the time it is one or the other but both together is
still
about 12 amp under the circuit capacity IIRC.

Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...

Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
reason to need to ensure compliance...

Technically I think Duane is correct here. The preferred way would be to
have the circuit feed a sub-panel and have two circuits branch off from
there. Keep this in mind if you are going to have your electrical
inspected.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

You do need to make sure you've got the voltage right. Many motors can
be configured to run on either 110 or 220 by moving a jumper or
connecting to different terminals, but make sure you got it right. A
mixup in either direction won't be good.

If it can be configured to run on either, run it on the 220.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...

Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
reason to need to ensure compliance...

I see. I feared that when I install the extra outlet so it is mounted out
side the wall and easily taken apart in the event I ever move. I have been
gonna move since 1986. I'm still here LOL.

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

Technically I think Duane is correct here. The preferred way would be to
have the circuit feed a sub-panel and have two circuits branch off from
there. Keep this in mind if you are going to have your electrical
inspected.


Yeah I agree and did not make the install modification permanent in the
event that I do ever move or have an inspection.

"TeamCasa" wrote in message
...
Lou said:
I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground, neutral, hot) coming from a 30
amp (unused) breaker
Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20?

Lou, This sounds like a 110v Circuit. You need 220V for that saw. Change
the single pole (assumed) 30A 110V breaker with a dual pole breaker
(20A - 220V).

Whats the last water heater you saw connected to a 30a 120v line?
It has to be 240v; he just thought the 2nd hot was a neutral.
(However, it does suggest he shouldn't be doing any of this himself.)

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:01:46 -0800, "Slowhand" I'm@work wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
. com...

"LRod" wrote in message
...

The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
240V circuit (North America).

With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set up.
Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you call
the other 3?

Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.

All that is true, and I'm sure as an old sparky you remember when a
240V circuit was just the two hots; the ground wire is a relatively
new (40 or 50 years?) requirement.

In any event, I'm also sure you will agree that in a 240V circuit that
will supply only a motor or a heater, there won't be any neutral
because there is no neutral in a 240V circuit.

Now I am fully aware that dryer circuits are now required to be four
wire, that one may no longer use the ground for the neutral path
needed for the 120V parts of a dryer circuit which the NEC permitted
as a special use. But that's an exception. I think that may also be an
exception in range circuits, but for water heaters, table saws,
planers, jointers, dust collectors, ACs, etc., all that's required is
three (and electrically, all that's needed is two), and neutral isn't
one of them.

Your example of the 120V receptacle is simply a variation of a multi
wire circuit which looks just like a 240V circuit everywhere along the
circuit except at the loads. But a neutral IS needed in a multiwire
circuit. It isn't in a 240V circuit excepting the dryer/range
applications.



- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"LRod" wrote in message
...
Your example of the 120V receptacle is simply a variation of a multi
wire circuit which looks just like a 240V circuit everywhere along the
circuit except at the loads. But a neutral IS needed in a multiwire
circuit. It isn't in a 240V circuit excepting the dryer/range
applications.

So do you still maintain, There is no neutral in a 240V circuit (North
America)?








- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Leon wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...

Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
reason to need to ensure compliance...

I see. I feared that when I install the extra outlet so it is mounted out
side the wall and easily taken apart in the event I ever move. I have been
gonna move since 1986. I'm still here LOL.

Of course, the other outlet needs to be wired to the same ampacity of
the breaker to protect that wiring as well as the original...otherwise,
one would have an unsafe condition in that section of the circuit. I
was agreeing w/ the load of the saw as not being an excessive load w/
the dryer for short periods, especially since one has to be there to
operate it...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...


Of course, the other outlet needs to be wired to the same ampacity of
the breaker to protect that wiring as well as the original...otherwise,
one would have an unsafe condition in that section of the circuit. I
was agreeing w/ the load of the saw as not being an excessive load w/
the dryer for short periods, especially since one has to be there to
operate it...

Yes, and it is. I think we are seeing eye to eye here Duane... Thank you.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Since I already have the double 30 amp breaker
and the 10 g wire with hot,hot,ground, I am
going to use it as soon as I get to the Borg to
get the proper outlet and plug.

Nothing like an electrical question to
stimulate discussion - especially in a woodworking
group!

Lou

In article , loutent
wrote:

I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 05:13:29 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
Your example of the 120V receptacle is simply a variation of a multi
wire circuit which looks just like a 240V circuit everywhere along the
circuit except at the loads. But a neutral IS needed in a multiwire
circuit. It isn't in a 240V circuit excepting the dryer/range
applications.

So do you still maintain, There is no neutral in a 240V circuit (North
America)?

What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
*electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
the two hots. Period.

The ground is a safety requirement that was added to the NEC several
years ago. It isn't electrically required for a strictly 240V load to
work (North America). In some other locations with solely 240V
service, it may be that they have a 240V and a neutral. Probably not,
but I don't know. But in North America, that's not how 240V works.

The "neutral" is a safety requirement that was added to the NEC
recently to alleviate the anomalous situation (elsewhere prohibited)
in dryers and ranges where the ground had previously been permitted to
perform the duties of a neutral as in a multi wire (2 x 120V/shared
neutral) circuit. That is, there were some 120V things going on in the
machine that is fed by a 240V circuit.

So, in the strictest sense of the words, yes I suppose you could say
that there is a neutral in [certain] 240V circuits (North America).
But it's not electrically necessary in order to run most 240V loads.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and Grizz
find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause
to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a one-minute
job. Cheap insurance.

Dave

"loutent" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the help everyone.

Since I already have the double 30 amp breaker
and the 10 g wire with hot,hot,ground, I am
going to use it as soon as I get to the Borg to
get the proper outlet and plug.

Nothing like an electrical question to
stimulate discussion - especially in a woodworking
group!

Lou

In article , loutent
wrote:

I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

In article , "BAF" wrote:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

Please turn off HTML before you post again. Thank you.

Sounds like you're confusing 110 with 220

No reason at all to think that. He has a 220V table saw that needs a
(minimum) 20A circuit, and he's asking if it's OK to hook it up to a 30A 220V
breaker. No mention of 110 anywhere.

To run your Griz Table Saw (I have the 1023Z) you need to add a 220
breaker (looks like 2 breakers in 1 and takes up 2 slots) to you panel

No he doesn't. He already has a 220 breaker.

and then have a 4 wire cable (Neutral, ground, 110 Phase A, 110 Phase B)
run to the saw.

Wrong. He needs a three-wire cable (hot, hot, and ground). The table saw,
being a 220V device, doesn't need the neutral.

The gauge of the wire is determined by the distance the saw is from the
panel and the amount of current it will draw (in your case 20 Amps).

Wrong again. The gauge of the wire is determined principally by the rating of
the breaker protecting it. For the 30A breaker that the OP says he has, the
*minimum* wire size is 10ga copper (or 8ga aluminum) regardless of the
distance from the breaker to the equipment. In residential applications such
as the OP's, it is *highly* unlikely that the load can be far enough away from
the breaker as to require a heavier gauge of circuit conductor.

There's a formula for this but I don't have it handy so you should
really have someone who knows what they're doing (electrician?) help you
if you have any doubt about doing it yourself!

Well, at least *that* is good advice.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:16:31 -0500, loutent wrote:

I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
information I believe. Now I actually have something to
work with!

I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
is less than 20 years old (just for reference).

Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Thanks for any input.

Lou

No. No.

In article , "TeamCasa" wrote:
Lou said:
I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground, neutral, hot) coming from a 30
amp (unused) breaker
Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
out the 30 breaker for a 20?

Lou, This sounds like a 110v Circuit.

Not if it used to power a water heater like he said. He's probably looking at
black-white-bare and thinking he's seeing hot-neutral-ground, when in fact
it's really hot-hot-ground on a 220V circuit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

If you blow the motor and there was 30 amps running through the wires, it
would indicate a defective motor.

"Dave" wrote in message
news:eRTDd.17273$8l.12748@pd7tw1no...
A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and
Grizz
find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find
cause
to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a
one-minute
job. Cheap insurance.

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

Not if it used to power a water heater like he said. He's probably looking at
black-white-bare and thinking he's seeing hot-neutral-ground, when in fact
it's really hot-hot-ground on a 220V circuit.

Which is why you're supposed to wrap some red tape around the white wire
in the boxes at both ends, to indicate that it's a hot conductor.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:01:46 -0800, "Slowhand" I'm@work wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
.com...

"LRod" wrote in message
...

The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
240V circuit (North America).

With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set
up.
Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you
call
the other 3?

Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.

All that is true, and I'm sure as an old sparky you remember when a
240V circuit was just the two hots; the ground wire is a relatively
new (40 or 50 years?) requirement.

Hey, I'm not old. (38). ;-)
As long as I've been sparkin (wired my first house in 1992), it's been two
hots and a ground.

I have a buddy who's a electrical contractor who pretty much taught me
enough to be dangerous. I'm still not sure why electricity works the way it
does. I just do what I've been taught.
SH

"LRod" wrote in message
...

What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
*electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
the two hots. Period.

I am not disagreeing with that statement, "There is no need for a Neutral
in a 240V circuit in N America."
But some what recently there is that 4th wire being used. My house does not
have the 4th but the newer ones do. Previousely you indicated that there
was NO Neutral in a 240 circuit. I was just trying to clarifiy what the 4th
wire was exactly.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:46:07 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
.. .

What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
*electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
the two hots. Period.

I am not disagreeing with that statement, "There is no need for a Neutral
in a 240V circuit in N America."
But some what recently there is that 4th wire being used. My house does not
have the 4th but the newer ones do. Previousely you indicated that there
was NO Neutral in a 240 circuit. I was just trying to clarifiy what the 4th
wire was exactly.

It's a neutral. That doesn't contradict my original statement given in
my previous post. It performs a function that most closely resembles a
multiwire circuit.

The best way to think of all of this is to not think of "neutral" and
"240V" in the same breath (I think I may have mixed a metaphor there).

"Neutral" only has meaning at 120V. If there is a neutral wire in a
240V circuit it's because there is some 120V load in the appliance
that's being powered. NEC no longer permits the ground wire to perform
that function (and rightly so) in new construction. That's why you see
4 wire "240V" circuits.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:26:50 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and Grizz
find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause
to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a one-minute
job. Cheap insurance.

Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry
if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the
slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory,
engineering, or legal requirements.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"LRod" wrote in message
...
It's a neutral. That doesn't contradict my original statement given in
my previous post. It performs a function that most closely resembles a
multiwire circuit.

The best way to think of all of this is to not think of "neutral" and
"240V" in the same breath (I think I may have mixed a metaphor there).

"Neutral" only has meaning at 120V. If there is a neutral wire in a
240V circuit it's because there is some 120V load in the appliance
that's being powered. NEC no longer permits the ground wire to perform
that function (and rightly so) in new construction. That's why you see
4 wire "240V" circuits.


Ok, I think I am see what you are saying now....Thanks

"LRod" wrote:

It's a neutral.

"Neutral" can be a very confusing term.

Rather than neutral, think of it as an "above ground return".

It can be a current carrying conductor and should be treated as such.

"Earth Ground", usually the green wire in the electrical world, is a
totally different issue.

HTH

Lew