The Hobbs brothers have been picking their way across the American
South, deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. These precious floorboards,
ceiling joists, and framing studs were cut from the very trees that
once dominated the Southern landscape. "As we reclaim this wood we're
reclaiming history, we're reclaiming memories, and in some small way,
if you think about it, we're reclaiming ourselves." -Matt Hobbs

http://player.vimeo.com/video/212140308

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:27:22 PM UTC-7, Spalted Walt wrote:
The Hobbs brothers have been picking their way across the American
South, deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. ..."As we reclaim this wood we're
reclaiming history,

It's sad, in a way. The original users of that wood, were finding treasure
growing in the ground, and harvesting it for their use. Now, to get
some of the same quality wood, it takes destruction of the old structures.

I saw a slightly-broken ugly old dining table the other day, with
a full 20" wide solid walnut board as one leaf. I've never seen that good
a board for sale.

On 4/13/2017 10:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:27:22 PM UTC-7, Spalted Walt wrote:
The Hobbs brothers have been picking their way across the American
South, deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. ..."As we reclaim this wood we're
reclaiming history,

It's sad, in a way. The original users of that wood, were finding treasure
growing in the ground, and harvesting it for their use. Now, to get
some of the same quality wood, it takes destruction of the old structures.

I saw a slightly-broken ugly old dining table the other day, with
a full 20" wide solid walnut board as one leaf. I've never seen that good
a board for sale.


Unless you are talking strictly walnut, it is still possible to buy wide
boards. 20+ inches wide.
My local lumbar supplier has mahogany in wide sizes. And monthly I get
a news letter from a supplier that offers 30+ inches wide.

BUT I do not see a lot of North American boards that wide.

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:17:30 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:27:22 PM UTC-7, Spalted Walt wrote:
The Hobbs brothers have been picking their way across the American
South, deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. ..."As we reclaim this wood we're
reclaiming history,

It's sad, in a way. The original users of that wood, were finding treasure
growing in the ground, and harvesting it for their use. Now, to get
some of the same quality wood, it takes destruction of the old structures..

I saw a slightly-broken ugly old dining table the other day, with
a full 20" wide solid walnut board as one leaf. I've never seen that good
a board for sale.

Twenty inch wide walnut is readily available, either newly sawn or salvaged boards. True, there are fewer old trees available to be newly sawn. I'd think most old walnut wasn't sawn into thick boards, 2" and greater, so finding thick slabs, for reclaiming, is not as prevalent as thinner boards.

As to the Hobbs brothers, I've never heard of them, as to being renowned salvagers, as some of the videos seem to profess. I'm not so impressed with them, at least thus far, though recycling is a noble venture. Listening to their speaking, they seem to have just stumbled onto the idea that reclaiming old lumber is something they, only, have discovered and are, now, introducing their discovery to everyone else, as if other folks don't know about it. Maybe it's just the folks in the Athens area that's been out of touch, that way. Some of their comments, about reclaiming old lumber, seem to be said as if "prophetic". Folks who buy into that "prophecy" are out of touch, also. Many salvagers have this or similar ideas/reasons for their salvaging old lumber, as well as strictly business reasons.

I've viewed several videos, regarding them and their business, and they are boring as heck. There's some reference to their, maybe, having a TV show, showcasing their work.... *seems Ridgid may be behind this effort. If the (subsequent) show is as boring as they are, in the videos, folks will loose interest, fast, if interest is developed, at all. The videos don't inspire me to look forward to viewing a, likewise(?), TV show.

Also, I haven't seen any hint of details of the projects they make. I've seen the finished product, in the various videos, and I'm not too impressed with their construction, as for as I can surmise the construction. In one video, they state it takes a week to make a (simple, IMO) table. I think, each, the tables, I saw in the videos, should have taken 2 days (or less) to make. Sure, they're spending time collecting the lumber, but if they are in business, their work should be producing simple(?) projects faster, than what they state.

I'm just not that impressed with them, at least at this point.

Sonny

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 4/13/2017 10:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:27:22 PM UTC-7, Spalted Walt wrote:
The Hobbs brothers have been picking their way across the American
South, deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. ..."As we reclaim this wood we're
reclaiming history,

It's sad, in a way. The original users of that wood, were finding treasure
growing in the ground, and harvesting it for their use. Now, to get
some of the same quality wood, it takes destruction of the old structures.

I saw a slightly-broken ugly old dining table the other day, with
a full 20" wide solid walnut board as one leaf. I've never seen that good
a board for sale.


Unless you are talking strictly walnut, it is still possible to buy wide
boards. 20+ inches wide.

You can obtain (claro) walnut (up to 48"+ wide). Here are some 12/4 33-36" wide slabs:

http://www.bakerhardwoods.com/direct...7/IMG_0253.JPG

Sonny wrote:

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:17:30 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:27:22 PM UTC-7, Spalted Walt wrote:
The Hobbs brothers have been picking their way across the American
South, deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. ..."As we reclaim this wood we're
reclaiming history,

It's sad, in a way. The original users of that wood, were finding treasure
growing in the ground, and harvesting it for their use. Now, to get
some of the same quality wood, it takes destruction of the old structures.

I saw a slightly-broken ugly old dining table the other day, with
a full 20" wide solid walnut board as one leaf. I've never seen that good
a board for sale.

Twenty inch wide walnut is readily available, either newly sawn or
salvaged boards. True, there are fewer old trees available to be
newly sawn. I'd think most old walnut wasn't sawn into thick
boards, 2" and greater, so finding thick slabs, for reclaiming, is
not as prevalent as thinner boards.

As to the Hobbs brothers, I've never heard of them, as to being
renowned salvagers, as some of the videos seem to profess. I'm not
so impressed with them, at least thus far, though recycling is a
noble venture. Listening to their speaking, they seem to have just
stumbled onto the idea that reclaiming old lumber is something they,
only, have discovered and are, now, introducing their discovery to
everyone else, as if other folks don't know about it. Maybe it's
just the folks in the Athens area that's been out of touch, that way.
Some of their comments, about reclaiming old lumber, seem to be said
as if "prophetic". Folks who buy into that "prophecy" are out of
touch, also. Many salvagers have this or similar ideas/reasons for
their salvaging old lumber, as well as strictly business reasons.

I've viewed several videos, regarding them and their business, and
they are boring as heck. There's some reference to their, maybe,
having a TV show, showcasing their work.... *seems Ridgid may be
behind this effort. If the (subsequent) show is as boring as they
are, in the videos, folks will loose interest, fast, if interest is
developed, at all. The videos don't inspire me to look forward to
viewing a, likewise(?), TV show.

Also, I haven't seen any hint of details of the projects they make.
I've seen the finished product, in the various videos, and I'm not
too impressed with their construction, as for as I can surmise the
construction. In one video, they state it takes a week to make a
(simple, IMO) table. I think, each, the tables, I saw in the
videos, should have taken 2 days (or less) to make. Sure, they're
spending time collecting the lumber, but if they are in business,
their work should be producing simple(?) projects faster, than what
they state.

I'm just not that impressed with them, at least at this point.

Sonny

Perhaps it's more about empowering people to get outside, reconnect
with their hands and nature, and in doing so, embark on a life of
great adventure. Like the folks at ReMade.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/70266394

http://remadeco.org/story.shtml

On 04/14/2017 8:08 AM, Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:17:30 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:27:22 PM UTC-7, Spalted Walt wrote:
....
... deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. ...

It's sad, in a way. The original users of that wood, were finding treasure
growing in the ground, and harvesting it for their use. Now, to get
some of the same quality wood, it takes destruction of the old structures.

I saw a slightly-broken ugly old dining table the other day, with
a full 20" wide solid walnut board as one leaf. I've never seen that good
a board for sale.

A bud and mine were scouring rural Piedmont VA area in the late '70s and
early '80s for either stashed and long-forgotten or unused lumber sawn
and stored for the time "got a round tuit" that so often never comes.
We found all kinds of hardwoods as well as much pine, some of which was
just truly gorgeous stuff...walnut was quite common, less so cherry and
the occasional chestnut log.

Twenty inch wide walnut is readily available, either newly sawn or
salvaged boards. True, there are fewer old trees available to be newly
sawn. I'd think most old walnut wasn't sawn into thick boards, 2" and
greater, so finding thick slabs, for reclaiming, is not as prevalent as
thinner boards.
....

Back early on in colonial days and shortly after, walnut wasn't even
really considered much of a desirable cabinet wood...much was used for
structural timbers and even fence posts. We find that hard to imagine.

I'm sure I've told the story before of going to a reclaimed old
schoolhouse in Lynchburg, VA, that were salvaging instead of razing for
the specific purpose of getting a slate board for the kids playroom in
the basement. I had no intended use for all the beams, etc., etc., in
mind on going.

However, liking wood in general, wandered around through the stacks and
discovered virtually all the structural timber was walnut with a few
white and red oak tossed in here and there. Were as much as 24-ft, 4x12
to 2x16 roughsawn timbers there. I calculated something like 20,000
bdft altogether. The aforementioned friend was working thru Davis Paint
in downtown Lynchburg in a shop area Mr Davis had set up for him making
decoupage plaques were selling thru the store. I called him up and got
him to get one of the store semi's up there and Mr Davis bankrolled us
the $10,000 I'd offered...much of it was still in storage when I left
Lynchburg some 10 yr later for TN.

https://www.jamestdavis.com/davis-paint/ the new storefront; the old
store was downtown Lynchburg...

--

On 4/14/2017 10:01 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/14/2017 8:08 AM, Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:17:30 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:27:22 PM UTC-7, Spalted Walt wrote:
...
... deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a
rare treasure - old-growth pine lumber. ...

It's sad, in a way. The original users of that wood, were finding
treasure
growing in the ground, and harvesting it for their use. Now, to get
some of the same quality wood, it takes destruction of the old
structures.

I saw a slightly-broken ugly old dining table the other day, with
a full 20" wide solid walnut board as one leaf. I've never seen
that good
a board for sale.

A bud and mine were scouring rural Piedmont VA area in the late '70s and
early '80s for either stashed and long-forgotten or unused lumber sawn
and stored for the time "got a round tuit" that so often never comes. We
found all kinds of hardwoods as well as much pine, some of which was
just truly gorgeous stuff...walnut was quite common, less so cherry and
the occasional chestnut log.

Twenty inch wide walnut is readily available, either newly sawn or
salvaged boards. True, there are fewer old trees available to be newly
sawn. I'd think most old walnut wasn't sawn into thick boards, 2" and
greater, so finding thick slabs, for reclaiming, is not as prevalent as
thinner boards.
...

Back early on in colonial days and shortly after, walnut wasn't even
really considered much of a desirable cabinet wood...much was used for
structural timbers and even fence posts. We find that hard to imagine.

Almost 10 years ago Swingman and I and our wives visited his wife's aunt
and uncle. He turned us on to a country guy that IIRC filled my tuck
bed with walnut fence posts. IIRC $4 each. I still have a ton of that
stuff and it is gorgeous.

I always have to remember that not everyone's interests are the same as mine when I see those shows. Having been in the trades for almost 45 years, I have to grit my teeth when I see home improvement shows, remodeling shows, house flipping shows, and even Mr. Silva. I have watched him do things like retro installing a skylight that is completely wrong. A quick call to the state/local roofers association would have led him to completely different procedures, starting with his choice of adhesives.

Anyway, I think TV shows like the Hobbs guys are made to have broad appeal, and even if they actually knew about old timber reclamation the show would be much more inviting if the average viewer went on a journey of discovery with them rather than to have someone snort their derision by saying they had known about reclamation for years.

I miss seeing that old wood and rarely do anymore. At one time when I was doing some work in the nearby OLD towns, I would tear into walls and ceilings and find beautiful Douglas Fir, chosen and milled because it was so straight. As a young man, I couldn't identify that stuff because the grain was so tight and close and the lack of knots threw me off. But when it was cut, some of it still had that wonderful pine perfume, almost 100 years later..

I worked on homes that had some kind of hard yellow pine for flooring (there are a couple that were harvested here in Texas that were favored for flooring) that folks covered with carpet. As the neighborhoods changed and the old folks moved out, the flooring was revealed, and in many cases the flooring was sanded, lightly stained, and finished. I found it odd as the upscale houses I worked in had white oak flooring, not pine. An old timer that was in his 80s in the 70s told me that the SYP was hard and durable, and wore as well as the oak, but was less than half the price. So SYP was used for flooring, it was that hard.

To bear that out, there are a couple of old, old saloons around here that have SYP flooring installed in the late 1890 and turn of the century. Same with a few old "restored" churches. As old as it is, it is wearing fine. That kind of old growth, super hard pine simply hasn't been available for years.

I have tried to figure out how to reclaim any kind of wood from my remodels/repairs that have the old growth stuff used as part of the build, but those old houses were usually so overbuilt that they have too many nail holes to be of any value. When I was building water bed frames to help my income a few decades ago, I learned that a few nail holes are charming. Too many, and the project looks like it was made from damaged crating.

Robert

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:27:16 +0000
Spalted Walt wrote:

The Hobbs brothers have been picking their way across the American
South, deconstructing century old barns and farmhouses, looking for a

what do they do with the wood

that is the real measure of their deed

and as other posts say it is not some new original idea


but this seems to be a common theme across many endeavors with those
younger that have no idea of what has come before

so many things redone that have already been done and even considered
obsolete are now considered amazing and ground breaking

On 04/14/2017 1:47 PM, wrote:
....


I worked on homes that had some kind of hard yellow pine for
flooring ... covered with carpet. As the neighborhoods
changed and the old folks moved out, the flooring was revealed, and in
many cases the flooring was sanded, lightly stained, and finished. I
found it odd as the upscale houses I worked in had white oak flooring,
not pine. An old timer that was in his 80s in the 70s told me that the
SYP was hard and durable, and wore as well as the oak, but was less than
half the price. So SYP was used for flooring, it was that hard.

The S TX native pines in the SYP classification were/are loblolly,
shortleaf and longleaf. Shortleaf and loblolly are both roughly 700 lbf
Janka hardness while longleaf is one of the hardest SYP at nearly 900
lbf. By comparison, the most common oaks for flooring are from 1000
(southern red) to 1300 (northern red) to about 1350 for white oak.

So, they're really not nearly as hard as the oaks but are quite hard in
comparison to the white pines (eastern or western) or sugar pine that
are in the 380-420 range. Given that, it is still very serviceable
flooring and much was indeed used for the purpose all over, not just in
TX. The floors in the old farmhouse here are SYP (1-1/4" strip) as is
all the framing and sheathing as well as all the interior woodwork. It
is also first-growth, very fine grained and "hard enough".

I (think I) know the FPL hardness numbers are on fresh specimens; I
don't know of lab data on this age material; would be interesting to know...

We're in process of updating the house here; nothing been done since
folks redid back in late '70s/early '80s so getting a little worn...part
of what we intend to do is pull the carpet out of some areas and
refinish the original floors...

Speaking of which, in classic thread drift, another issue is that dad
had replaced the original 3-1/8" siding (also SYP) with steel siding.
It survived the hail, but now the paint has failed and while it has been
repainted at least twice, it's a losing battle now and I'd like to
revert to something that looks more original than the 8" lap...I'm not
that eager to go back to wood for the painting issue but I see a
Hardie-board 12" wide plank with 4-plank simulated that in pictures
doesn't look bad. You have any experience with it and/or other
ideas/suggestions?

When did the barn restoration had a couple thousand linear feet of the
3" siding run to patch in where needed; it was unavailable any more in
anything narrower than 5". Wasn't too bad; roughly $1/ft (linear) --
$4 /sq-ft but again that gets into keeping it painted...altho guess
we're getting to age that only a couple more times and it'd be somebody
else's worry...

--





To bear that out, there are a couple of old, old saloons around here that have SYP flooring installed in the late 1890 and turn of the century. Same with a few old "restored" churches. As old as it is, it is wearing fine. That kind of old growth, super hard pine simply hasn't been available for years.

I have tried to figure out how to reclaim any kind of wood from my remodels/repairs that have the old growth stuff used as part of the build, but those old houses were usually so overbuilt that they have too many nail holes to be of any value. When I was building water bed frames to help my income a few decades ago, I learned that a few nail holes are charming. Too many, and the project looks like it was made from damaged crating.

Robert

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 10:17:07 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

Speaking of which, in classic thread drift, another issue is that dad
had replaced the original 3-1/8" siding (also SYP) with steel siding.
It survived the hail, but now the paint has failed and while it has been
repainted at least twice, it's a losing battle now and I'd like to
revert to something that looks more original than the 8" lap...I'm not
that eager to go back to wood for the painting issue but I see a
Hardie-board 12" wide plank with 4-plank simulated that in pictures
doesn't look bad. You have any experience with it and/or other
ideas/suggestions?

A couple of thoughts.

First, I haven't seen steel siding fail unless it was neglected. That being said, it was never used much around here, and our weather is heavy rains for a few months, then drought. Hard to screw metal up around here except for surface rust. There are plenty of farming burgs around here that have tractors and cars under the old oak tree that are untouched for 50 or so years, some more.

But if the siding was topped with latex or not prepped properly, that is a problem, too. When in doubt, I call Sherwin Williams technical division to get the right finish and the details on prep.
You may be beyond that. But personally, I wouldn't want to take off the steel siding just because of all the work.

I have back to different places where I have enameled steel doors, handrails, etc., and 10 years later they have a bit of chalk from the UV exposure, but the surfaces are still fine. So I use an "at least" 10 year life for my metal finishes, and would anticipate 15 for something like siding.

Second, to put any siding on, you will have to take the metal off, put a moisture barrier up, then follow the manufacturer's instructions. 99% of Hardie is installed incorrectly. Don't believe me? Go to the manufacturer's site, they have explicit instructions.

I personally will not put up the 12" planks. It is a product I cannot warrant. Here in S. Texas, it just doesn't work well. It sags under its own weight after installation, it is harder to install, and any tiny mistake you make (say you spall out behind a nail) and you will have a sag or the siding will open up. To compound that problem, most of the single floor houses around here built post 60s have walls on 24" centers which is not enough to hold that siding up. Think about it... a 12" piece of cement board 12' long that has ONLY SEVEN nails to hold it up across all twelve feet! And then too, with this product there is a lot of waste.

So I put up the narrower Hardie planks. The other good news about the narrower style is that you can sheath a wall with OSB, and while you need to hit studs, you can put as many nails in the siding as you need to make yourself happy, including nailing in the face of the siding from time to time if you get a bump or open spot.

As a sidebar, I put a product very similar to this up on a garage about 15 years ago:

https://goo.gl/M2uvi9

It came primed, I put it on over Thermoply, and painted it with 2 coats of an SW premium satin enamel. It looks great! I loved the install. Not too messy, covered a lot of area very quickly, didn't have to worry about nail depth, and any nail holes or cracks caulked up and disappeared when we painted. No special tools needed. I have a utility nail gun for siding/fencing/etc., that I used. But I could have easily used a framing gun with an adjustable tip (or good compressor) to shoot it on with galvanzied 6d or 8d.

There are a lot of variations on that product some 12" wide, some thinner, some shorter in length. Now they make it that is fungus resistant, mildew resistant, insect resistant, and is very stable even in humid conditions. I liked the fact the product I installed had a lot of definition to the face, and it was thick enough that it didn't follow every little bump in the wall when installed. Best of all for me, my client told me he just hoses it off once in a while and it looks great. I painted immediately after installation, my only prep besides caulking joints and filling holes was to blow off the siding with a nozzle to get the dust off, taking care to brush the joints a bit.

A good paint job on Hardie board should get at least 10 years with good paint, but too many times they fail prematurely. Often the product is not stored correctly (you won't know this...)and it will suck water into the board.. When you paint the moist board, the paint will not bond properly and the finish will fail long before it should. If you wind up using ANY cement board, I would advise to go to the Hardie site and download the pdf for installation and follow it closely.

Robert

On 04/20/2017 3:31 PM, wrote:
....

But if the siding was topped with latex or not prepped properly,
that is a problem, too. When in doubt, I call Sherwin Williams technical
division to get the right finish and the details on prep.
You may be beyond that. But personally, I wouldn't want to take off
the steel siding just because of all the work.

....

Thank for the considered input, Robert; appreciate it muchly.

As for "neglected", is not that what everybody does with siding once
it's up? This is, if you recall, far SW KS which is hot, mostly dry
with mucho wind and blowing dirt often entrained with same...this was
put on in the late 70s and it looked pretty good for at least first
20-25 yr; I don't recall when dad first had it repainted; it had been
done a second time not too long before we came back after he passed in
spring '99 and it's got much that is back to bare metal again. There is
no rust that I've seen and I've no data on what was used nor what prep
work was done before. I strongly suspect that part was shirked as it
was a local handy-man guy who did the work and he was, I think from what
I saw of what he was still supposedly finishing when we came back,
pretty-much incompetent.

In large part, I'm wanting the present steel removed simply for
appearances--I want the house to look much more like the old 4-square it
is/was when finished in 1916 when it had 3" Pattern 106 T&G. As noted,
I had to have some of it run when did the barn as it is simply not
obtainable any longer other than 5". I was thinking of the wide simply
owing to 12"/4 -- 3" which gives the appearance factor.

I strongly agree w/ the weight but again, this isn't new construction,
it's 100-yo SYP all on 16" centers so that's not an issue. I also would
remove the existing simply to be able to use a modern wrap as well; iirc
there was paper put down over the sheathing with a little insulation but
I wasn't here when that part of the remodel was done; I've only seen a
couple pictures taken while it was partially completed and they were not
pictures of the project but it just happens to be in the background for
a snapshot. I did the kitchen cabinets and some other interior finish
work but the exterior was completed by then...

As a sidebar, I put a product very similar to this up on a garage
about 15 years ago:

https://goo.gl/M2uvi9

....

I've seen some other manufactured product as you say and looks
interesting, indeed. There's nobody in town that carries anything but
the absolute most basic of things but there is a collection of all the
box stores plus an ABC distributorship in Garden City which is only 66
mi; think I'll head up that way and see what some of these actually look
like in person.

I think I've given up on the cement-board idea, though, simply for the
installation and the fact that there are just too many complaints that
the prepainted just doesn't hold up any longer than I'd expect of a
normal paint job. I did find a steel siding (don't recall manufacturer
now) that is 12"/4 bar that would fix my wide spacing look I just do not
like but it would still have the funky corner detail and all that just
doesn't "look right" on a 100-yo farm house imo.

Again, thanks for the input...I'll probably post back some further
ruminations on the project as it comes together...I'm still fussing over
how to add on a porch onto the porch that was closed in when folks did
the remodel but left us with nothing but a set of steps and no weather
protection for the occasional time when it does actually rain...I can't
raise the roof line on it to get additional width without having to also
raise lower edge of 2nd story windows and they're original leaded glass
which don't want to lose, either...

--

On 04/20/2017 3:31 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 10:17:07 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

Speaking of which, in classic thread drift, another issue is that dad
had replaced the original 3-1/8" siding (also SYP) with steel siding.
It survived the hail, but now the paint has failed and while it has been
repainted at least twice, it's a losing battle now and I'd like to
revert to something that looks more original than the 8" lap...I'm not
that eager to go back to wood for the painting issue but I see a
Hardie-board 12" wide plank with 4-plank simulated that in pictures
doesn't look bad. You have any experience with it and/or other
ideas/suggestions?

....

One of the prime reasons was considering the cement board is the higher
fire resistance vis a vis wood. I don't know how much (if any) of Dad's
thinking was influenced by that; I think primarily he was looking for
low-maintenance and something that would stand up against the frequent
serious hail we have...the latter it has done admirably.

I've mentioned before, but at the risk of repeating it, we're sitting in
the middle of several miles in every direction of native grass in mostly
unbroken sections. If you saw anything of the massive fire outbreak in
TX, OK panhandles and KS in first week of March, that'll give you an
idea of the concerns we have every year before spring rains finally arrive.

When this was all actively farmed (and Dad hadn't yet retired when the
previous work on the house was done), that wasn't such an issue as there
were breaks of fallow ground that aided in containing any fires that did
get started instead of there being this expanse of fuel as now have when
so much ground was put back into grass beginning in the early-mid 90s
with the Conservation Reserve Program (CRP).

So, I don't think the fire danger was much on his mind then, but
certainly something that will stand up to the the hail while vinyl
simply gets shredded regularly around here, even the "new, improved"
varieties so beside it looking like vinyl, it's just not on the radar.

--

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 6:02:43 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

So, I don't think the fire danger was much on his mind then, but
certainly something that will stand up to the the hail while vinyl
simply gets shredded regularly around here, even the "new, improved"
varieties so beside it looking like vinyl, it's just not on the radar.

Theoretically, the steel siding should last forever. Sadly, it took years for the now available finishes to come around, and by that time steel siding had see its day. On came thick gauge, thin gauge and medium gauge aluminum, and worse, vinyl. The thick gauge aluminum was the best of the lot. I paint some if it now and then, but not much of the good stuff was installed.

We have the same problem with vinyl here, it just doesn't hold up. The hail storms we had last year in aggregate caused about 2.6 BILLION dollars in damage to houses, vehicles and structures. It was anywhere from marble sized to softball sized, and in some cases the softball stuff drove all the way through roofs into the living areas of the house.

So the upshot is this: Hardie siding took a lot of damage, some of it shattered, some was hit repeatedly enough to break it and it fell off the walls.. You already know what the vinyl looks like from your own experience. But the fiberboard held up, marked with a few scuffs. It is so dense and so dead that the hail just bounced off.

They make a lot of different patterns of that stuff, and some Lowe's stores handle it. I know how frustrating it is to be in your shoes as our "little town" is blossoming to about 2 million including its metropolitan area, and we have exactly two places that carry it. BTW, when I put this material on on last time I did use the cementitious 1x4 trim. It was on the entryway of a house, and I used this stuff and it looked great when painted. Note the crack about using it to replace Masonite and Hardie. Since it comes in 16 foot lengths (!!) you can fly through and installation.

https://goo.gl/uHNHvl

Sort through this page and you can see examples of the different profiles and finished product. I understand that it might not be feasible to get it where you are, but I am just pointing out that this a a long way from the old masonite paper crap we used to use.

https://goo.gl/2Febj7

Keep us in the loop. I will e interested to see where you and on this and what your experience is with the final product.

Robert

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 23:44:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 6:02:43 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

So, I don't think the fire danger was much on his mind then, but
certainly something that will stand up to the the hail while vinyl
simply gets shredded regularly around here, even the "new, improved"
varieties so beside it looking like vinyl, it's just not on the radar.

Theoretically, the steel siding should last forever.
Sadly, it took years for the now available finishes to come around, and by that time steel siding had see its day.
On came thick gauge, thin gauge and medium gauge aluminum, and worse, vinyl. The thick gauge aluminum was the best of the lot. I paint some if it now and then, but not much of the good stuff was installed.

We have the same problem with vinyl here, it just doesn't hold up.
The hail storms we had last year in aggregate caused about 2.6 BILLION dollars in damage to houses, vehicles and structures.
It was anywhere from marble sized to softball sized, and in some cases the softball stuff drove all the way through roofs into the living areas of the house.

So the upshot is this: Hardie siding took a lot of damage, some of it shattered, some was hit repeatedly enough to break it and it fell off the walls.
You already know what the vinyl looks like from your own experience. But the fiberboard held up, marked with a few scuffs. It is so dense and so dead that the hail just bounced off.

They make a lot of different patterns of that stuff, and some Lowe's stores handle it.
I know how frustrating it is to be in your shoes as our "little town" is blossoming to about 2 million including its metropolitan area, and we have exactly two places that carry it.
BTW, when I put this material on on last time I did use the cementitious 1x4 trim.
It was on the entryway of a house, and I used this stuff and it looked great when painted.
Note the crack about using it to replace Masonite and Hardie. Since it comes in 16 foot lengths (!!) you can fly through and installation.

https://goo.gl/uHNHvl

Sort through this page and you can see examples of the different profiles and finished product. I understand that it might not be feasible to get it where you are, but I am just pointing out that this a a long way from the old masonite paper crap we used to use.

https://goo.gl/2Febj7

Keep us in the loop. I will e interested to see where you and on this and what your experience is with the final product.

Robert

Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

On 04/21/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:
....

Keep us in the loop. I will e interested to see where you and on
this and what your experience is with the final product.

Thx again, Robert. I guess you're basically saying other than the
factory-primed products or to go back to steel, there really isn't as
durable a prefinished material as the advertising would have you believe
I think is what I'm reading between the lines...which isn't that
surprising methinks.

The original profile is #106 in the standard mill books (eastern and
western) as shown at
www.nelma.org/wp-content/uploads/106_drop_siding.pdf excepting where
they now show from 4" up, it was 3-1/8". The narrower is more
pieces/work but really has the "old timey" look that just isn't captured
with the wider profiles (at least imo which is the one that counts ).
I may end up with 4" out of accommodation with cost, but I really
don't want to get wider than that--I never liked the 8" on the steel
siding dad put on from the beginning, but wasn't my call, then, either!


https://goo.gl/LxK9fo

Some about the house a classmate took when had a HS reunion evening out
as well as some of the barn refurb/reroof and a few during an
exceptionally good haying season for good measure...not sure if I did
the sharing thingie right or not...it worked for me but not sure it's
public for other users...

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 23:44:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 6:02:43 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

So, I don't think the fire danger was much on his mind then, but
certainly something that will stand up to the the hail while vinyl
simply gets shredded regularly around here, even the "new, improved"
varieties so beside it looking like vinyl, it's just not on the radar.

Theoretically, the steel siding should last forever.
Sadly, it took years for the now available finishes to come around, and by that time steel siding had see its day.
On came thick gauge, thin gauge and medium gauge aluminum, and worse, vinyl. The thick gauge aluminum was the best of the lot. I paint some if it now and then, but not much of the good stuff was installed.

We have the same problem with vinyl here, it just doesn't hold up.
The hail storms we had last year in aggregate caused about 2.6 BILLION dollars in damage to houses, vehicles and structures.
It was anywhere from marble sized to softball sized, and in some cases the softball stuff drove all the way through roofs into the living areas of the house.

So the upshot is this: Hardie siding took a lot of damage, some of it shattered, some was hit repeatedly enough to break it and it fell off the walls.
You already know what the vinyl looks like from your own experience. But the fiberboard held up, marked with a few scuffs. It is so dense and so dead that the hail just bounced off.

They make a lot of different patterns of that stuff, and some Lowe's stores handle it.
I know how frustrating it is to be in your shoes as our "little town" is blossoming to about 2 million including its metropolitan area, and we have exactly two places that carry it.
BTW, when I put this material on on last time I did use the cementitious 1x4 trim.
It was on the entryway of a house, and I used this stuff and it looked great when painted.
Note the crack about using it to replace Masonite and Hardie. Since it comes in 16 foot lengths (!!) you can fly through and installation.

https://goo.gl/uHNHvl

Sort through this page and you can see examples of the different profiles and finished product. I understand that it might not be feasible to get it where you are, but I am just pointing out that this a a long way from the old masonite paper crap we used to use.

https://goo.gl/2Febj7

Keep us in the loop. I will e interested to see where you and on this and what your experience is with the final product.

Robert

Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:56:05 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:


Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

Get an estimate from a painter, then you will know if it is worth it.

On 4/21/2017 10:22 PM, Markem wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:56:05 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:


Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

Get an estimate from a painter, then you will know if it is worth it.



I have used both types. Time is money.... but Hardie requires a
special type of primer that will stick to this type material. Not that
this is a problem but if it is not right, the paint may fail.
Preprimed, you know it is the correct coating.

On 04/21/2017 11:32 PM, Leon wrote:
....

I have used both types. Time is money.... but Hardie requires a special
type of primer that will stick to this type material. Not that this is a
problem but if it is not right, the paint may fail. Preprimed, you know
it is the correct coating.

What (I think?) I've learned is also that those with prepainted in all
the class-action lawsuits against Hardie have had early failures in
multiple ways including the required/recommended color-matching caulks
turn color that don't match, finish coatings are thin and washout
quickly and all kinds of tales, even when (purportedly) installed per
spec's. I'm thinking I'm staying away from cement fiber based on what
I've seen so far...

--

On 4/22/2017 8:28 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/21/2017 11:32 PM, Leon wrote:
...

I have used both types. Time is money.... but Hardie requires a special
type of primer that will stick to this type material. Not that this is a
problem but if it is not right, the paint may fail. Preprimed, you know
it is the correct coating.

What (I think?) I've learned is also that those with prepainted in all
the class-action lawsuits against Hardie have had early failures in
multiple ways including the required/recommended color-matching caulks
turn color that don't match, finish coatings are thin and washout
quickly and all kinds of tales, even when (purportedly) installed per
spec's. I'm thinking I'm staying away from cement fiber based on what
I've seen so far...

--


Well there is always a fly in the ointment. LOL

I replaced the majority of the siding on my precious home with Hardie
about 12~17 years ago. It was not preprimed, I was not sure if it was
offered by my supplier at that point. Anyway the siding has held up
wonderfully and has not yet been repainted. I did preprime and paint.

Fast forward a few years, I built a storage shed in my back yard and
used Hardie preprimed. 12 years later the paint is still good.

My current home builder used preprimed Hardie on the exterior where
there is no brick and so far so good after just over 6 years.

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:22:12 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:56:05 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:


Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

Get an estimate from a painter, then you will know if it is worth it.

What does the cost of a painter have to do with the value of my time?

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 23:32:59 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/21/2017 10:22 PM, Markem wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:56:05 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:


Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

Get an estimate from a painter, then you will know if it is worth it.



I have used both types. Time is money.... but Hardie requires a
special type of primer that will stick to this type material. Not that
this is a problem but if it is not right, the paint may fail.
Preprimed, you know it is the correct coating.

??

Hardie Plank is already primed.

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:54:11 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:22:12 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:56:05 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:


Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

Get an estimate from a painter, then you will know if it is worth it.

What does the cost of a painter have to do with the value of my time?

If you are paining it yourself it sets a value on your time, if you
hire a painter it is more obvious.

On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 8:28:37 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 04/21/2017 11:32 PM, Leon wrote:
...

I have used both types. Time is money.... but Hardie requires a special
type of primer that will stick to this type material. Not that this is a
problem but if it is not right, the paint may fail. Preprimed, you know
it is the correct coating.

What (I think?) I've learned is also that those with prepainted in all
the class-action lawsuits against Hardie have had early failures in
multiple ways including the required/recommended color-matching caulks
turn color that don't match, finish coatings are thin and washout
quickly and all kinds of tales, even when (purportedly) installed per
spec's. I'm thinking I'm staying away from cement fiber based on what
I've seen so far...

For me, a huge consideration is to deliver a warrantable product. For all that you mentioned, I stay away from the prepainted Hardie. I never put any up for exactly the reasons you state. Shingles are colored by batch, and one manufacturing run doesn't match another exactly. Wallpaper, the same. Batch runs of tile, paneling, brick, and on and on don't match one another. So how could batches of Hardie? Since it is expensive, you only order what you need, and if you need to go back for more, your prefinished pieces don't match.

Hardie flip/flopped on caulking joints on the prefinished product since their own caulk didn't match, so when the launched the product we were to caulk; several years later, no caulking on the prefinished stuff as per their instruction. So what gives? Same product, one is painted, one is not. Worse,the ambiguity of their instructions make sure they warn the potential installer to be aware of the fact that on long runs there is enough thermal movement that the joints SHOULD be caulked.

https://www.jameshardie.com/d2w/inst...-hz5-us-en.pdf

So what is the message? On houses with long runs, don't use the prefinished?

But it gets worse. Since no one reads the instructions, they don't flash EACH butt joint as required. Every one should be flashed. I am the only installer I have ever seen that does it though, even the largest "certified" installer here locally does not. So if you don't flash the butt joints and don't caulk them, you will get water behind your siding.

Prefinished siding from Hardie doesn't match their own recommendation of finish thickness on the siding. Somewhere in their literature they require a minimum protective finish (latex paint) of 1.5mm. They may have changed that by now. However, a the time I measured the demo product with my micrometer the factory finish was less than half that. The Hardie rep assured me that it was fine since it was applied in perfect factory conditions to their specs and under their supervision. Bull****. Too thin is too thin. The prefinished product is soft, scuffs and damages so easily that simply movement of the material can cause scuffs, and scratches that require repair. And no paint, regardless of the accuracy of the original quality of color match will wear to the same color as a dissimilar product used by the factory.

That being said, Hardie has its place for me. I have used a lot of it and had great results. As Leon said, primed is the ONLY way to go. Since it is almost never stored correctly, primer provides a little protection against water and humidity absorption. I only buy from one local lumber yard that sells a ton of the stuff as it always fresh from the factory.

The pre-primed material holds paint very well, and one of the advantages of the preprimed is that you only need to put on a couple of coats and you are done. Properly painted, it looks great for years and years. Many companies like Sherwin Williams have modified some of their formulations to accommodate cement board products.

If I didn't have an airless, I would still wouldn't use prefinished. But as I do with a lot of installs, I would prefinish myself. It is easy enough to lay out Hardie across sawhorses and roll it out. It takes no time at all to roll a couple of coats and they are are ready for use later in the day or at least by the next day. I can put a helper on a 6 inch roller with a five of paint and he is a busy boy, but a helper can now pre-finish your siding on the ground. Scuffs and touch ups will match as you are using the exact finish you applied, and your nailer/installer can do his own touch up before moving a ladder if it is more convenient.

Just thought I would put all that out there in case someone is thinking of Hardie or any other kind of cement board installation. It lasts well when put up correctly, but you must follow the instructions perfectly.

Robert

On 04/22/2017 12:51 PM, wrote:
....
[useful summary of caveats/processes elided solely for brevity]...

Just thought I would put all that out there in case someone is
thinking of Hardie or any other kind of cement board installation. It
lasts well when put up correctly, but you must follow the instructions
perfectly.

Thanks again, good background indeed. I'm surprised the Hardie board is
so susceptible to moisture; you'd think given the material it would be
much more impervious than seems to be and hence there wouldn't be such
issues of causing paint failures.

BTW, was wondering if you tried to view the links I posted earlier
below; nobody had commented at all so wondered if were not working or
just elicited no response...

--

On 04/21/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:
....

Keep us in the loop. ...

Now I need Leon's facility w/ Sketchup to try to make up some
plans/drawings! I'm going to have to hire some help as will need more
hands to get things closed back in once tear off this porch to get
things closed back in more quickly than I can get done alone, so will
need some fairly decent drawings instead of just building what I want.

My only forays previously haven't been that successful; I somehow never
go the hang of it or any other CAD program, either, for that matter--I
always had a designer for drawings and they were all
mechanical/electrical instrumentation or the like, anyways, so just
never developed a facility with any. I hand sketch shop stuff and then
mostly just develop the details as build as don't have the issue of
building to spec or even the need, generally, to be particularly
time-conscious any more for the woodworking end of things...

--

On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 1:27:05 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

Thanks again, good background indeed. I'm surprised the Hardie board is
so susceptible to moisture; you'd think given the material it would be
much more impervious than seems to be and hence there wouldn't be such
issues of causing paint failures.

Pour water on a scrap and stand back to be amazed...

BTW, was wondering if you tried to view the links I posted earlier
below; nobody had commented at all so wondered if were not working or
just elicited no response...

Yup, worked fine! While I didn't reference it, your link was what prompted a post further up the line.

Robert

On 04/22/2017 1:47 PM, wrote:
....

Yup, worked fine! While I didn't reference it, your link was what
prompted a post further up the line.

....

Ah, ok...

On "the project", it's that entry addition w/ the brick facing that is
the prime focus; as is obvious (I think?) it's an old porch that dad
just filled in when they redid. It has settled/pulled away from the
house significantly and the brick, while has been on there since the
early 50s when it was still just screen porch, just "doesn't look right"
and there isn't enough footer that it has settled. Didn't help that
during the time since the Dirty 30s and again in the 50s it had built up
as much as 12-18" of higher level in the yard so that the house was
sitting in a hole, in essence. I have drug the yard back down since but
where there's a slightly observable larger gap at the south (LH side of
the top of the screen door in the picture, that is now some 10-12 yr
later 1/2". Surprisingly, the header is still level, the top of the
frame appears to have moved south. Also, the brick facade at the NE
corner had a gap between it and the wall above at that corner that I
stuck a 3/8" ply into before just caulking it up for the winter. Turns
out there were a zillion wasps behind there, apparently, and they've
been finding their way out thru interior cracks all spring. Seem to
have finally about got rid of them, though, the numbers are dwindling.
Inside, the outer wall has also separated from the floor so there's a
gap developing there of 1/8" or so...

That was taken about 6-7 yr after we came back so only that long on the
paint; it didn't look too bad, then. I need to take a few more recent
to show the present state.

Anyways, it seems to me two choices--

1) just rip out the infill sections while propping up the roof and fill
in again squaring stuff up and hope with the regrading that it doesn't
settle much more, or

2) tear off the whole entrance addition/porch and rebuild from scratch.

I wish I could enlarge it some as it's only 5'9" interior depth, but
that means raising the roof line unless drop the floor level as interior
ceiling height is only 7' 6" now and there's not enough length in the
dining room to extend the table to accommodate the leaves at present w/o
moving into the entry way so that's not really feasible. If raise the
present roofline, only about 5-6" at most and leave clearance under the
2nd-story windows or get into the previously-mentioned problem of
replacing the original leaded glass...

On the overall, it's just that I think the 8" siding pattern just also
isn't as attractive as would be narrower so I'm seriously considering
the reside for the whole thing while we're at it...

Anyways, again thanks for the input--helpful, it was...

--

On 4/22/2017 1:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 04/22/2017 12:51 PM, wrote:
...
[useful summary of caveats/processes elided solely for brevity]...

Just thought I would put all that out there in case someone is
thinking of Hardie or any other kind of cement board installation. It
lasts well when put up correctly, but you must follow the instructions
perfectly.

Thanks again, good background indeed. I'm surprised the Hardie board is
so susceptible to moisture; you'd think given the material it would be
much more impervious than seems to be and hence there wouldn't be such
issues of causing paint failures.

Hardie is pretty porous. So it is best to paint all sides. If moisture
penetrates from the back side to the back side of the paint the paint
will fail.



BTW, was wondering if you tried to view the links I posted earlier
below; nobody had commented at all so wondered if were not working or
just elicited no response...

--

On 04/22/2017 3:18 PM, Leon wrote:
....

Hardie is pretty porous. So it is best to paint all sides. If moisture
penetrates from the back side to the back side of the paint the paint
will fail.
....

Well, the latter is obvious; the former surprises me to learn--I had
assumed given the base material/weight it would be dense-enough to be
essentially impervious; hence its advantage. Lacking that, I see little
at all to recommend it in lieu of alternatives.

--

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 13:27:03 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 04/22/2017 12:51 PM, wrote:
...
[useful summary of caveats/processes elided solely for brevity]...

Just thought I would put all that out there in case someone is
thinking of Hardie or any other kind of cement board installation. It
lasts well when put up correctly, but you must follow the instructions
perfectly.

Thanks again, good background indeed. I'm surprised the Hardie board is
so susceptible to moisture; you'd think given the material it would be
much more impervious than seems to be and hence there wouldn't be such
issues of causing paint failures.

BTW, was wondering if you tried to view the links I posted earlier
below; nobody had commented at all so wondered if were not working or
just elicited no response...

Concrete loves water, but H2O is the univeral solvent.

On 4/22/2017 5:04 PM, dpb wrote:
On 04/22/2017 3:18 PM, Leon wrote:
...

Hardie is pretty porous. So it is best to paint all sides. If moisture
penetrates from the back side to the back side of the paint the paint
will fail.
...

Well, the latter is obvious; the former surprises me to learn--I had
assumed given the base material/weight it would be dense-enough to be
essentially impervious; hence its advantage. Lacking that, I see little
at all to recommend it in lieu of alternatives.

--



In hurricane country or where there is driving rain during storms the
water can get back behind the panels and another reason that you wrap
with a water barrier before hanging the paneling.

But Hardie does not rot nor is it food for insects.

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:51:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 8:28:37 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 04/21/2017 11:32 PM, Leon wrote:
...

I have used both types. Time is money.... but Hardie requires a special
type of primer that will stick to this type material. Not that this is a
problem but if it is not right, the paint may fail. Preprimed, you know
it is the correct coating.

What (I think?) I've learned is also that those with prepainted in all
the class-action lawsuits against Hardie have had early failures in
multiple ways including the required/recommended color-matching caulks
turn color that don't match, finish coatings are thin and washout
quickly and all kinds of tales, even when (purportedly) installed per
spec's. I'm thinking I'm staying away from cement fiber based on what
I've seen so far...

For me, a huge consideration is to deliver a warrantable product. For all that you mentioned, I stay away from the prepainted Hardie. I never put any up for exactly the reasons you state. Shingles are colored by batch, and one manufacturing run doesn't match another exactly. Wallpaper, the same. Batch runs of tile, paneling, brick, and on and on don't match one another. So how could batches of Hardie? Since it is expensive, you only order what you need, and if you need to go back for more, your prefinished pieces don't match.

Hardie flip/flopped on caulking joints on the prefinished product since their own caulk didn't match, so when the launched the product we were to caulk; several years later, no caulking on the prefinished stuff as per their instruction. So what gives? Same product, one is painted, one is not. Worse,the ambiguity of their instructions make sure they warn the potential installer to be aware of the fact that on long runs there is enough thermal movement that the joints SHOULD be caulked.

https://www.jameshardie.com/d2w/inst...-hz5-us-en.pdf

So what is the message? On houses with long runs, don't use the prefinished?

But it gets worse. Since no one reads the instructions, they don't flash EACH butt joint as required. Every one should be flashed. I am the only installer I have ever seen that does it though, even the largest "certified" installer here locally does not. So if you don't flash the butt joints and don't caulk them, you will get water behind your siding.

According to the Hardie site, the flashing can be just a piece of
house wrap. They describe how to saw off the end of a roll so you
have essentially a TP roll the right width for the joint. I've also
seen aluminum widgets for this but even on Amazon, they want over $2
each for them. Yikes!

Prefinished siding from Hardie doesn't match their own recommendation of finish thickness on the siding. Somewhere in their literature they require a minimum protective finish (latex paint) of 1.5mm. They may have changed that by now. However, a the time I measured the demo product with my micrometer the factory finish was less than half that. The Hardie rep assured me that it was fine since it was applied in perfect factory conditions to their specs and under their supervision. Bull****. Too thin is too thin. The prefinished product is soft, scuffs and damages so easily that simply movement of the material can cause scuffs, and scratches that require repair. And no paint, regardless of the accuracy of the original quality of color match will wear to the same color as a dissimilar product used by the factory.

Paint shouldn't be that bad, these days. THe problem I see is fading,
which shouldn't be a problem if just "running out". I've touched up
interior wall with paint bough several years later. It looks like
hell until it's dry than I couldn't see where I stopped. Tile
(doesn't matter what type) is a PITA because you even the size differs
by lots.

That being said, Hardie has its place for me. I have used a lot of it and had great results. As Leon said, primed is the ONLY way to go. Since it is almost never stored correctly, primer provides a little protection against water and humidity absorption. I only buy from one local lumber yard that sells a ton of the stuff as it always fresh from the factory.

As I said earlier, I have to replace six or seven squares over the
next few weeks. I'm considering the painted boards because it may be
a while before I can get it all up and you folks have me worried about
water. I'll still have to paint it to get it closer to the rest of
the house (though the other Hardie sided sides can't be seen at the
same time, at least by anyone other than the deer).

That said, I was looking at the boards at Lowes today. The aren't
primed on the back so water could easily penetrate the fiber. Will
water be a problem after it's hung, perhaps before the job is
complete? I'll probably store it in the garage and let my truck sleep
outside for a while.

The pre-primed material holds paint very well, and one of the advantages of the preprimed is that you only need to put on a couple of coats and you are done. Properly painted, it looks great for years and years. Many companies like Sherwin Williams have modified some of their formulations to accommodate cement board products.

If I didn't have an airless, I would still wouldn't use prefinished. But as I do with a lot of installs, I would prefinish myself. It is easy enough to lay out Hardie across sawhorses and roll it out. It takes no time at all to roll a couple of coats and they are are ready for use later in the day or at least by the next day. I can put a helper on a 6 inch roller with a five of paint and he is a busy boy, but a helper can now pre-finish your siding on the ground. Scuffs and touch ups will match as you are using the exact finish you applied, and your nailer/installer can do his own touch up before moving a ladder if it is more convenient.

What do you do with them after you've rolled them? THat's a lot of
boards to lay around. I did it with the cedar I used on my VT house,
so I could get the backs primed but it was a PITA.

Just thought I would put all that out there in case someone is thinking of Hardie or any other kind of cement board installation. It lasts well when put up correctly, but you must follow the instructions perfectly.

I really appreciate your help. It's awesome and at exactly the right
time for me. Thanks!

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:27:03 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:54:11 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:22:12 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:56:05 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:


Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

Get an estimate from a painter, then you will know if it is worth it.

What does the cost of a painter have to do with the value of my time?

If you are paining it yourself it sets a value on your time, if you
hire a painter it is more obvious.

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:27:03 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:54:11 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:22:12 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:56:05 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:58:45 -0500, Markem
wrote:


Hardie siding can come pre painted with a first coat, just adding that
can be a time saver. Unlike some here I enjoy some plumbing stuff, but
painting a house nope not one bit.

I have to replace the Hardie Plank on the South side of my house
(installed by a moron) and am considering the pre-painted stuff. It
certainly would save time but it's about 40% more expensive than the
primed stuff. That seems like a lot to ask for a coat of paint.

Get an estimate from a painter, then you will know if it is worth it.

What does the cost of a painter have to do with the value of my time?

If you are paining it yourself it sets a value on your time, if you
hire a painter it is more obvious.

OK, but it's really the other way around. I have a price on my time
and if the painter is cheaper, it makes sense to use the painter. In
this case, it's a small job (6-7 squares 1 to 1-1/2 stories) and I
doubt any painter would bother.

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 6:28:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:


That said, I was looking at the boards at Lowes today. The aren't
primed on the back so water could easily penetrate the fiber. Will
water be a problem after it's hung, perhaps before the job is
complete? I'll probably store it in the garage and let my truck sleep
outside for a while.

That will do it. We store Hardie on the job with a large Harbor Freight tarp over it if we are looking for rain. Cementitious board isn't a water magnet, so just being outside won't hurt it. Drizzle won't hurt it, a sprinkle or two won't hurt it. Rain will ruin it as it can cause it to effloresce. If you see this on ANY of the product, don't buy it from that yard:

https://goo.gl/wCKCfG

Regardless, with primer only you can paint with confidence if you have warm, dry weather for 30 days after you hang it when it has been wet. The same porosity that causes absorption allows it to dry out well. As a matter of fact, if I install during our more iffy weather season, I put it up, wait two week/ten days then paint knowing it could have caught some water at the material yard.


It takes no time at all to roll a couple of coats and they are are ready for use later in the day or at least by the next day. I can put a helper on a 6 inch roller with a five of paint and he is a busy boy, but a helper can now pre-finish your siding on the ground. Scuffs and touch ups will match as you are using the exact finish you applied, and your nailer/installer can do his own touch up before moving a ladder if it is more convenient.

What do you do with them after you've rolled them? THat's a lot of
boards to lay around. I did it with the cedar I used on my VT house,
so I could get the backs primed but it was a PITA.

I can be, but I only prime for a day or two in advance. We set up and paint first thing in the morning, and the material is so porous that it is dry in a couple of hours. Careful management of time and materials lets us paint at the end of the day to get started first thing in the morning, then paint again that morning for early afternoon, then again at the end of the day.. It sounds like a lot of movement, but not really. I have a lot of cheap sawhorses that I have just to keep material off the ground. I take the lowest paid guy I have to paint one side only (I don't prime the back) on these, then transfer to screeds on a driveway, patio or deck. I "sticker" in between layers as soon as possible and store the painted product where I can. One laborer can easily keep up with two installers.

One last thought on the butt joints. I don't use flexible materials like vinyl, siding wrap, 30# felt, etc. I find the absolutely thinnest aluminum coil stock I can find to flash. Lowe's has some coil stock on occasion that is nearly as thin as heavy duty tin foil and it works great. If it is 8" stock, I cut my pieces 6" long and have my flashing pieces. (As a tip, if you use aluminum this thin you can cut it with a box cutter/utility knife and a speed square!)
Whatever you use, make sure it is thin enough to allow the siding over the joint to rest easily on the joint/flashing. Here it is in 10":

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Amerimax-10...ashing/3010399

It is bigger than you need, but even using that size your cost to flash is only .25 cents! (50 feet cut into 6" by 10" strips = 100 pcs. ) Get fancy and buy a $5 can of Krylon spray in the approximate color of your siding and spray a stripe of paint down the middle of your flashing. That way when the siding shrinks a bit you won't see a sliver of unpainted metal from time to time at your butts. One can will probably do your whole project.

Stay away from galvanized product to flash. The cement in the board will set up an electrolytic process that will cause rust and the above mentioned efflorescence.

To see how to do a proper butt joint, check this guy out. He (no pun intended...) nails it perfectly, except for the fact he uses galvanized steel. You can also see that it is stiff enough to mess up the piece that lays over the butt, too. Important to note that while me didn't use a nail and relied on friction to hold the metal in place, the next course wound up with a nail in the flashing to make sure it stayed in place.

I really appreciate your help. It's awesome and at exactly the right
time for me. Thanks!

My pleasure. This thread reminds me when this group was mostly about woodworking. I was kind of feeling your possible pain when I saw the size of your project. That's simply too big to have any problems.

I do hope you post some "work in progress" pics, no matter what siding you use.

Robert

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:55:22 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 6:28:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:


That said, I was looking at the boards at Lowes today. The aren't
primed on the back so water could easily penetrate the fiber. Will
water be a problem after it's hung, perhaps before the job is
complete? I'll probably store it in the garage and let my truck sleep
outside for a while.

That will do it. We store Hardie on the job with a large Harbor Freight tarp over it if we are looking for rain. Cementitious board isn't a water magnet, so just being outside won't hurt it. Drizzle won't hurt it, a sprinkle or two won't hurt it. Rain will ruin it as it can cause it to effloresce. If you see this on ANY of the product, don't buy it from that yard:

Rain is a given this time of year. When you say that rain will ruin
it, do you mean if it's submerged or if it just gets (good and) wet?
If it's hanging on the wall, will a good rain ruin it?

https://goo.gl/wCKCfG

Regardless, with primer only you can paint with confidence if you have warm, dry weather for 30 days after you hang it when it has been wet. The same porosity that causes absorption allows it to dry out well. As a matter of fact, if I install during our more iffy weather season, I put it up, wait two week/ten days then paint knowing it could have caught some water at the material yard.

30 days is a rather long dry spell to arrange. ;-)

It takes no time at all to roll a couple of coats and they are are ready for use later in the day or at least by the next day. I can put a helper on a 6 inch roller with a five of paint and he is a busy boy, but a helper can now pre-finish your siding on the ground. Scuffs and touch ups will match as you are using the exact finish you applied, and your nailer/installer can do his own touch up before moving a ladder if it is more convenient.

What do you do with them after you've rolled them? THat's a lot of
boards to lay around. I did it with the cedar I used on my VT house,
so I could get the backs primed but it was a PITA.

I can be, but I only prime for a day or two in advance. We set up and paint first thing in the morning, and the material is so porous that it is dry in a couple of hours. Careful management of time and materials lets us paint at the end of the day to get started first thing in the morning, then paint again that morning for early afternoon, then again at the end of the day. It sounds like a lot of movement, but not really. I have a lot of cheap sawhorses that I have just to keep material off the ground. I take the lowest paid guy I have to paint one side only (I don't prime the back) on these, then transfer to screeds on a driveway, patio or deck. I "sticker" in between layers as soon as possible and store the painted product where I can. One laborer can easily keep up with two installers.

It would be nice to have a helper but this is a solo project.

One last thought on the butt joints. I don't use flexible materials like vinyl, siding wrap, 30# felt, etc. I find the absolutely thinnest aluminum coil stock I can find to flash. Lowe's has some coil stock on occasion that is nearly as thin as heavy duty tin foil and it works great. If it is 8" stock, I cut my pieces 6" long and have my flashing pieces. (As a tip, if you use aluminum this thin you can cut it with a box cutter/utility knife and a speed square!)
Whatever you use, make sure it is thin enough to allow the siding over the joint to rest easily on the joint/flashing. Here it is in 10":

That's sorta what I was thinking. I had some step flashing from moons
ago but I'm pretty sure I pitched it in the last move.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Amerimax-10...ashing/3010399

It is bigger than you need, but even using that size your cost to flash is only .25 cents! (50 feet cut into 6" by 10" strips = 100 pcs. ) Get fancy and buy a $5 can of Krylon spray in the approximate color of your siding and spray a stripe of paint down the middle of your flashing. That way when the siding shrinks a bit you won't see a sliver of unpainted metal from time to time at your butts. One can will probably do your whole project.

Another excellent idea. The $1 per piece flashing looked to be a
piece of step flashing with maybe an 1/8" right angle bend in one end.
The flashing was hung on the edge on the upper board and held on by
the lower. Nice idea but $1 a piece?

Stay away from galvanized product to flash. The cement in the board will set up an electrolytic process that will cause rust and the above mentioned efflorescence.

Yeah. Any sort of steel seems to be a bad idea. Aluminum isn't that
expensive. I intend to use stainless nails, so a few bucks for
aluminum flashing seems like cheap insurance.

To see how to do a proper butt joint, check this guy out. He (no pun intended...) nails it perfectly, except for the fact he uses galvanized steel. You can also see that it is stiff enough to mess up the piece that lays over the butt, too. Important to note that while me didn't use a nail and relied on friction to hold the metal in place, the next course wound up with a nail in the flashing to make sure it stayed in place.

Am I missing a link?

I really appreciate your help. It's awesome and at exactly the right
time for me. Thanks!

My pleasure. This thread reminds me when this group was mostly about woodworking. I was kind of feeling your possible pain when I saw the size of your project. That's simply too big to have any problems.

It's not that big. I've done that much cedar, though I was a few
years younger. ;-)

I do hope you post some "work in progress" pics, no matter what siding you use.

Sure, I'll try to remember.

--Keith

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 8:00:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:


Rain is a given this time of year. When you say that rain will ruin
it, do you mean if it's submerged or if it just gets (good and) wet?
If it's hanging on the wall, will a good rain ruin it?

No. If it is hung on the wall with rain draining off it, you can paint it after about 10 days of drying if completely soaked. But if just a good sprinkle, usually when it looks dry it is ready to go.

I was trying to hit the point that the lumberyards/suppliers stack it horizontally in open weather most of the time, and when rained on repeatedly, it can sustain irreparable damage.

https://goo.gl/wCKCfG

Regardless, with primer only you can paint with confidence if you have warm, dry weather for 30 days after you hang it when it has been wet. The same porosity that causes absorption allows it to dry out well. As a matter of fact, if I install during our more iffy weather season, I put it up, wait two week/ten days then paint knowing it could have caught some water at the material yard.

30 days is a rather long dry spell to arrange. ;-)

Depending on the time of year, here, too.

It would be nice to have a helper but this is a solo project.


Then if that was me, I would separate the tasks depending on the availability of room. I would paint as much as possible as the cleanup time required (dictated on the material painted)for the rollers, brushes, paint stirrer (mine is always on a drill), etc., takes much longer than simply pulling in the compressor and rolling up the cords at the end if the day. I wouldn't want to clean paint equipment more than twice a day.

If you are hanging the long pieces by yourself, make a "J" shaped hanger to attach to the farthest stud you siding will reach to hold the other side of the material until you work your way to it. If you make it right, you can screw it to the stud at the joint, then when you are about 4' away, you can swivel it on the screw to swing it out of your way before you nail.


To see how to do a proper butt joint, check this guy out. He (no pun intended...) nails it perfectly, except for the fact he uses galvanized steel.. You can also see that it is stiff enough to mess up the piece that lays over the butt, too. Important to note that while me didn't use a nail and relied on friction to hold the metal in place, the next course wound up with a nail in the flashing to make sure it stayed in place.

Am I missing a link?

Ooops....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcw-9SfSxzo&t=205s

I still can't believe he uses galvanized metal, for all the reasons described above. Technique, great. Materials used, fail.

It's not that big. I've done that much cedar, though I was a few
years younger. ;-)

I do a lot of physical labor during my normal course of work from time to time, and my goodness... what a difference 40 years makes on the old frame.


Sure, I'll try to remember.

--Keith

Hope so! A smaller amount of siding than your project, say an entryway or storage room is a doable project for some handy guys and DIY folks. Pictures of your work might be worth a thousand explanations, even if there are few replies.

Robert