On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 12:57:58 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:


So what you are saying is people have no imagination and can only see it
for what it is.

Years ago, homes were never staged, you went out and saw what people
had. You used your imagination. Figured out what you wanted it to look
like.

--
Jeff

Yes! Exactly. Repulsive, but true. If you have ever watched any of those "Buy it now" type home shows, think of the number of times someone's said "Ugh. We can't buy this house! The walls are green! How awful! We're out of here." I just shake my head...then turn the channel.

But if that's how people think about green (pink, brown, paneled, papered) walls which are ridiculous easy to change, then just imagine how they are viewing a room with nearly a ton of hardened steel and cast iron equipment in the middle of it. That's not to mention the walls full of ductwork, conduit, lumber racks, and everything else we all take for granted or consider an asset to our spaces.

On 4/6/2017 11:57 AM, woodchucker wrote:
Sniop



So what you are saying is people have no imagination and can only see it
for what it is.

Years ago, homes were never staged, you went out and saw what people
had. You used your imagination. Figured out what you wanted it to look
like.

Yes, times have changed. My wife cannot picture a piece of furniture
that I want to build until I draw it. I pretty much see the protect
before I draw it.

It is surprising how many people can't picture something that is not there.

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:41:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 11:57 AM, woodchucker wrote:
Sniop



So what you are saying is people have no imagination and can only see it
for what it is.

Years ago, homes were never staged, you went out and saw what people
had. You used your imagination. Figured out what you wanted it to look
like.

Yes, times have changed. My wife cannot picture a piece of furniture
that I want to build until I draw it. I pretty much see the protect
before I draw it.

"Seeing" a piece of furniture is not the same as *communicating" that
vision.

It is surprising how many people can't picture something that is not there.

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 23:35:49 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 22:53:48 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 22:48:14 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 20:41:23 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:39:32 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 22:09:53 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 15:28:33 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 03:53:33 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Just because were paying them doesn't make them right 100% of the
time.

certainly you mean overpaying them

You mean they're stealing money from you? Are they forcing you to use
their services?
Pretty close. Not saying they are stealing money, but in many cases
they are not providing the service you are paying for. Worse yet for
home inspectors than realtors.

You chose to hire them and agreed to the terms. They don't get paid
if you aren't successful in selling your home. How is that being
"overpaid"?

My selling agents have been worth every dime I paid them. We had a
loser buyer's agent but she didn't get paid a dime either. Her
replacement got paid the buying side of the commission for a few hours
work (she was willing _to_ work).



You need to vet your agent, whether buying or selling. In a hot market
any agent can sell your house and get you a good price. In a slow
market just about any agent can get you a suitable house.. Whether
they have fully represented you, and provided you all the information
they should have when buying, or given all the information to the
buyer they should have, is another question.
Getting you into or out of a house isn't the whole job.

Sure, in a slow market the agent's biggest job is to find buyers but
the buyer isn't paying the agent. The fact is that the seller is
paying both ends of the deal. Since you, the buyer, aren't paying the
salary of the agent, he can't be over-priced. You don't seem to
understand that both agents are working for the seller, no matter what
they may say.
You may not be paying the "buyer's agent" directly - but the agent is
being paid, and it IS coming out of your pocket indirectly because the
cost of selling the house is reflected in the price you pay when you
buy the house. There is no "free lunch"

The *fact* is that the check is being cut by the seller. Both agents
ARE working for the seller. Never tell your agent something you
wouldn't want the buyer to know.

If you manage to get a "double header" agent - the listing agent also
being your "buyer's agent" it is doubly important that they know what
they are doing -Or a triple header - listing and selling YOUR house,
as well as being the listing agent on the house you buy and your
"buyer's agent"

Indeed. That's a very dangerous thing to do but sometimes
unavoidable. I had this happen once, though I was on the selling side
so it didn't matter.

When we bought our house (and sold our old house) the house we bought
was listed by a different agent working for the same company. - but
neither was the "buyer's agent" for the buyer of our old house.

I'm sure glad I'm not buying or selling in the current market. We were
looking 2 years ago but I'll put in stair lifts and stay in the house
we have for a lot less than just the real estate comissions involved
in changing houses - and there are no decent bungalows available for
what we are likely to get for our 2 story - and I refuse to deal with
a mortgage in retirement.

I hear you loud and clear. Our mortgage is paid off in a couple of
months. I'm not sure when I'm going to retire (might just as well
work if they're going to pay me for having fun) but when I do, I won't
have a mortgage (or any other debt).

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 9:11:32 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/5/2017 10:35 PM, wrote:
Snip



I'm sure glad I'm not buying or selling in the current market. We were
looking 2 years ago but I'll put in stair lifts and stay in the house
we have for a lot less than just the real estate comissions involved
in changing houses - and there are no decent bungalows available for
what we are likely to get for our 2 story - and I refuse to deal with
a mortgage in retirement.


What's a mortgage? ;~)

A method used to raise cash at a low interest rate so that it can be invested
at a higher rate of return.

....and a sure-fire method of bankruptcy.

Possibly risky and something that has to be managed carefully, yes, but a
strategy used by wealthy people (and businesses) quite often.

Also of really poor people.

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?

On 4/6/2017 1:59 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:41:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 11:57 AM, woodchucker wrote:
Sniop



So what you are saying is people have no imagination and can only see it
for what it is.

Years ago, homes were never staged, you went out and saw what people
had. You used your imagination. Figured out what you wanted it to look
like.

Yes, times have changed. My wife cannot picture a piece of furniture
that I want to build until I draw it. I pretty much see the protect
before I draw it.

"Seeing" a piece of furniture is not the same as *communicating" that
vision.

She has a hard time seeing it as it is being built. Some times it takes
putting it in place.


It is surprising how many people can't picture something that is not there.

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 3:18:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 9:11:32 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/5/2017 10:35 PM, wrote:
Snip



I'm sure glad I'm not buying or selling in the current market. We were
looking 2 years ago but I'll put in stair lifts and stay in the house
we have for a lot less than just the real estate comissions involved
in changing houses - and there are no decent bungalows available for
what we are likely to get for our 2 story - and I refuse to deal with
a mortgage in retirement.


What's a mortgage? ;~)

A method used to raise cash at a low interest rate so that it can be invested
at a higher rate of return.

...and a sure-fire method of bankruptcy.

Not "sure-fire", but a possibility. ("sure-fire" to me means guaranteed. That
just isn't the case.)


Possibly risky and something that has to be managed carefully, yes, but a
strategy used by wealthy people (and businesses) quite often.

Also of really poor people.

Yep, that's why I said "Possibly risky and something that has to be
managed carefully" It's not a tactic to be employed casually.


Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?

Why pay interest if you don't have to, unless of course, you are using your
money to make more than the loan is costing you or the inflation rate is
higher than your interest rate?

Even billionaires take out mortgages.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/20...re-need-a-loan

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 4:42:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

OK...I misunderstood your response. When I said that some people could
pay off their mortgage any time they wanted, you said "Oh, hell, I could
have done that some time back". I thought you were saying that you could
have paid off your mortgage early but didn't want to bother.

Now I understand that you never had a mortgage in the first place. Different
situation.

On 4/6/2017 4:23 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 4:42:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

OK...I misunderstood your response. When I said that some people could
pay off their mortgage any time they wanted, you said "Oh, hell, I could
have done that some time back". I thought you were saying that you could
have paid off your mortgage early but didn't want to bother.

Nope, that was Keith. ;~)

I was responding why not to keep a mortgage if the reason is "Oh, hell,
I could have done that some time back but why bother?"



Now I understand that you never had a mortgage in the first place. Different
situation.


That was me. ;~)

BUT I had a 12% 30year mortgage in 1981, I refinanced at 9% for 15 years
6 years later. I added to those payments and paid the mortgage off 10
years later. So in essence I was earning 9% interest on every extra
dollar that I sent in above the required minimum and was debt free 16
years after building that first home. We paid cash for the next home.

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:51:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 3:18:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 9:11:32 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/5/2017 10:35 PM, wrote:
Snip



I'm sure glad I'm not buying or selling in the current market. We were
looking 2 years ago but I'll put in stair lifts and stay in the house
we have for a lot less than just the real estate comissions involved
in changing houses - and there are no decent bungalows available for
what we are likely to get for our 2 story - and I refuse to deal with
a mortgage in retirement.


What's a mortgage? ;~)

A method used to raise cash at a low interest rate so that it can be invested
at a higher rate of return.

...and a sure-fire method of bankruptcy.

Not "sure-fire", but a possibility. ("sure-fire" to me means guaranteed. That
just isn't the case.)

If you're over-leveraged, it's just a matter of time until the cards
fall. We all saw that a few years back.


Possibly risky and something that has to be managed carefully, yes, but a
strategy used by wealthy people (and businesses) quite often.

Also of really poor people.

Yep, that's why I said "Possibly risky and something that has to be
managed carefully" It's not a tactic to be employed casually.


Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?

Why pay interest if you don't have to, unless of course, you are using your
money to make more than the loan is costing you or the inflation rate is
higher than your interest rate?

Because the cost of the money was so low the value of the "safety net"
was larger. Cash in the bank gives off soft fuzzies.

Even billionaires take out mortgages.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/20...re-need-a-loan

https://www.daveramsey.com/

On Thu, 06 Apr 2017 15:12:07 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 9:11:32 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/5/2017 10:35 PM, wrote:
Snip



I'm sure glad I'm not buying or selling in the current market. We were
looking 2 years ago but I'll put in stair lifts and stay in the house
we have for a lot less than just the real estate comissions involved
in changing houses - and there are no decent bungalows available for
what we are likely to get for our 2 story - and I refuse to deal with
a mortgage in retirement.


What's a mortgage? ;~)

A method used to raise cash at a low interest rate so that it can be invested
at a higher rate of return.

...and a sure-fire method of bankruptcy.

Possibly risky and something that has to be managed carefully, yes, but a
strategy used by wealthy people (and businesses) quite often.

Also of really poor people.

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?
Grand dad bought 100 acre farm in '29 for something like $1200 with a
1 1/4% open mortgage and he never paid a cent of the principal 'till
he sold the farm in the mid sixties.

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care? Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him. There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford. If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:23:58 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 4:42:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

OK...I misunderstood your response. When I said that some people could
pay off their mortgage any time they wanted, you said "Oh, hell, I could
have done that some time back". I thought you were saying that you could
have paid off your mortgage early but didn't want to bother.

I said that. You're up Leon and me up. By "some time", I don't mean
30 years back, I mean a year or two. At that point it doesn't matter.
The payment is almost all principal by that time.

Now I understand that you never had a mortgage in the first place. Different
situation.

We've bought the house five years ago and had a small mortgage then.

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.



If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc. I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.



If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc. I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.


I'm over 100 feet higher than the Grand River and Laurel Creek at just
about the highest point in the whole neighborhood. It would be a more
than 1 in 500 year event to flood overland,

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 20:41:31 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.



If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc. I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.


I'm over 100 feet higher than the Grand River and Laurel Creek at just
about the highest point in the whole neighborhood. It would be a more
than 1 in 500 year event to flood overland,


You would be surprised how they figure ground water damage. I'm going
through that right now. House is 3.5 to 4 feet above everything, with
no water barriers like concrete to stop the water from draining off.
They still wanted to call it ground water damage instead of Heavy rain
storms twice in the same month with heavy winds driving it into a hole
and some cracks between the flashing and stucco. All 6" above the
ground.

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

Why would the builder pay points on your loan?




Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.



If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc. I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:05:04 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.
If I lived in West Montrose or Bridgeport I'd have flood insurance
(many houses less than 15 feet above the river) Up here in North
Waterloo paying extra for flood insurance wouldn't make a lot of
sense, sitting on the top of the hill over 100 ft above the river with
several thousand acres significantly lower. Now if lightning required
extra coverage, THAT might make sense. Even wind damage. We do get the
odd twister., being just off the edge of Ontario's Tornado Alley, and
some pretty vicious ice and wind storms every 5 years or so.

It makes sense to pay a bit more for "broad form" coverage instead of
"named perils". "Comprehensive" covers more on contents etc, and sewer
backup isn't covered on either broad form or comprehensive from most
companies, but so far is not a terribly expensive add-on. This may
change as the losses climb.

I'm about 400 miles (over 300 anyway) from the Charlevois fault that
runs from montreal through ottawa to temiskaming., which is the only
known active fault in the east., so earthquake insurance isn't common,
or terribly expensive.

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:05:04 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.
There are lots of places where flood insurance is basically not
available.

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:54:27 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:05:04 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.
There are lots of places where flood insurance is basically not
available.

Where would that be? BTW, I'm not saying that everyone should have
flood insurance, just that a mortgage shouldn't be the determining
factor. A home is still something few can afford to lose (hence
self-insure).

On 4/7/2017 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

Why would the builder pay points on your loan?

Ok, this is getting kind'a silly. Often a builder will pay points to
lower the mortgage or to simply help with the expenses of the mortgage
approval, this happened with our first home. Builders ALWAYS pay points
to close the deal. If your builder did not you were had.

Anyway here is how our sale went. After negotiating and agreeing to the
the price to build the home the salesman asked if we already had an
approved loan. I said that we intended to pay cash. Well Mr. Leon you
get an extra $5K off of your negotiated price.

If you need further details I suggest you visit DRHorton.com

On 4/8/2017 8:34 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:54:27 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:05:04 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.
There are lots of places where flood insurance is basically not
available.

Where would that be?

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

On 4/7/2017 8:27 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 20:41:31 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.



If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc. I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.


I'm over 100 feet higher than the Grand River and Laurel Creek at just
about the highest point in the whole neighborhood. It would be a more
than 1 in 500 year event to flood overland,


You would be surprised how they figure ground water damage. I'm going
through that right now. House is 3.5 to 4 feet above everything, with
no water barriers like concrete to stop the water from draining off.
They still wanted to call it ground water damage instead of Heavy rain
storms twice in the same month with heavy winds driving it into a hole
and some cracks between the flashing and stucco. All 6" above the
ground.


Typically in the Houston area, which floods on a regular basis, if the
damage to the walls is from the floor up, it is rising water and
flooded. If the damage is from the ceiling down, it is not rising water
and or flooded.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:55:00 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/7/2017 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

Why would the builder pay points on your loan?

Ok, this is getting kind'a silly. Often a builder will pay points to
lower the mortgage or to simply help with the expenses of the mortgage
approval, this happened with our first home. Builders ALWAYS pay points
to close the deal. If your builder did not you were had.

That's absurd. I shop mortgages for myself. Why would I take their
financing?

Anyway here is how our sale went. After negotiating and agreeing to the
the price to build the home the salesman asked if we already had an
approved loan. I said that we intended to pay cash. Well Mr. Leon you
get an extra $5K off of your negotiated price.

If you need further details I suggest you visit DRHorton.com

So the analogy is to take dealer financing on cars? In almost all
cases, that's silly.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/8/2017 8:34 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:54:27 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:05:04 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.


Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.
There are lots of places where flood insurance is basically not
available.

Where would that be?

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

The government subsidizes this insurance ALL THE TIME. Yes, it should
be a warning but beach view is *so* nice.

On 4/7/2017 10:05 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

No they do not but many do, both builders that we have used had that
offer on the table. We in fact have not heard of a builder that does
not offer paying points. Competition among builders is helpful to the
buyer. A builder not offering perks like this is like a new car dealer
not selling a vehicle below sticker. Special circumstances can apply in
both situations that might change that, but not often.






Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

It is all cash to them, more cash or less cash. Builders pay a lot for
certain things to help the buyer qualify or to compete with what the
builder in the next door model home is offering.





There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

I would say the the vast majority of new home buyers are paying as
little down as possible. And a good majority of those people can easily
afford the home they buy. An extreme example was my son, he bought our
home and financed as much as he could. 3 years later he paid the loan
off. We considered having a balloon loan on our current home to get
very low interest in the first five years and simply paying if off in 2
years, just to have a little more cush. We chose to not finance at all
and tightened the purse strings for a couple of years.



If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

Every one is in a zone determined by FEMA.


I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

Just because I am not likely to be in a flood, it can happen. If your
storm drains clog a heavy rain can flood your home. I witnessed this
about 10 years ago. While I was "then" in a likely to flood area and
did have flood insurance, we had a tornado go through the neighborhood
followed by heavy rains for 2~3 hours. Rising water almost entered our
garage and did enter homes at the end of the street. The was no high
water our side of a few streets in our neighborhood. The drains were
stopped up with debris and the rain came down faster than than the
clogged drains could handle.

So, that is why I buy flood insurance even though I am not ins a prone
to flood area.



My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.

NO I did not say that. I was locked in with the $260 that I had already
paid, about 3 months later my agent and the flood insurance company
tried to make me cancel the policy so that I would have to immediately
pay more. They sent me a refund check which I sat on until the policy
expired. I then cashed the check and changed agents and flood
insurance companies. My new policy went up to about $700, after I
provided an elevation survey, otherwise I would have had to pay way more.

On 4/8/2017 10:26 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:55:00 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/7/2017 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

Why would the builder pay points on your loan?

Ok, this is getting kind'a silly. Often a builder will pay points to
lower the mortgage or to simply help with the expenses of the mortgage
approval, this happened with our first home. Builders ALWAYS pay points
to close the deal. If your builder did not you were had.

That's absurd. I shop mortgages for myself. Why would I take their
financing?

I don't know what you would do or what you might be thinking. And this
would work with whom ever you chose to use for financing. There are
costs involved with obtaining a home loan other than simply paying back
the P&I.


Anyway here is how our sale went. After negotiating and agreeing to the
the price to build the home the salesman asked if we already had an
approved loan. I said that we intended to pay cash. Well Mr. Leon you
get an extra $5K off of your negotiated price.

If you need further details I suggest you visit DRHorton.com

So the analogy is to take dealer financing on cars? In almost all
cases, that's silly.


I said nothing about taking anyone's financing. The builder wanted to
know if I was preapproved. The discount he gave us was for not having
to participate, to compete with the builder next door, with buying down
percentage points, loan origination fees, appraisals for the loan, extra
surveys for the loan, etc.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

If you are in a flood zone A - C, your mortgage provider will require
flood insurance, if you do not they will get it for you. The
difference when we were on the edge of a C zone, from us buy and them
providing was over $300 a year.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 10:37:29 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/8/2017 10:26 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:55:00 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/7/2017 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

Why would the builder pay points on your loan?

Ok, this is getting kind'a silly. Often a builder will pay points to
lower the mortgage or to simply help with the expenses of the mortgage
approval, this happened with our first home. Builders ALWAYS pay points
to close the deal. If your builder did not you were had.

That's absurd. I shop mortgages for myself. Why would I take their
financing?

I don't know what you would do or what you might be thinking. And this
would work with whom ever you chose to use for financing. There are
costs involved with obtaining a home loan other than simply paying back
the P&I.

Huh? None of the costs have anything to do with the builder (or
anyone else you may buy a house from). If the builder is buying down
the interest to make his house look more attractive, well, just do it
yourself. The point is that the builder is getting a wad of cash. He
doesn't care if it's coming from you or a bank. Any "discounts" for
cash are just come-ons.

Anyway here is how our sale went. After negotiating and agreeing to the
the price to build the home the salesman asked if we already had an
approved loan. I said that we intended to pay cash. Well Mr. Leon you
get an extra $5K off of your negotiated price.

If you need further details I suggest you visit DRHorton.com

So the analogy is to take dealer financing on cars? In almost all
cases, that's silly.


I said nothing about taking anyone's financing. The builder wanted to
know if I was preapproved. The discount he gave us was for not having
to participate, to compete with the builder next door, with buying down
percentage points, loan origination fees, appraisals for the loan, extra
surveys for the loan, etc.

So he didn't give you anything (for purchasing with cash). He would
have given the same deal to anyone who walked in with financing.

On Sat, 08 Apr 2017 10:40:15 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

If you are in a flood zone A - C, your mortgage provider will require
flood insurance, if you do not they will get it for you. The
difference when we were on the edge of a C zone, from us buy and them
providing was over $300 a year.

It's the same for fire insurance. We had a mortgage company that was
trying their best to force us to buy fire insurance from them (they
refused my company's documentation and were automatically billing us).
Their automatic charge was 5x the norm. That wasn't the only BS they
were pulling, either. Scum.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 10:28:19 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/7/2017 10:05 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

No they do not but many do, both builders that we have used had that
offer on the table. We in fact have not heard of a builder that does
not offer paying points. Competition among builders is helpful to the
buyer. A builder not offering perks like this is like a new car dealer
not selling a vehicle below sticker. Special circumstances can apply in
both situations that might change that, but not often.

My point is that you were getting any special deal for cash. You were
getting the price that anyone with their own financing would have
gotten. Competition is great but gimmicks are just gimmicks.

Yes, there are special circumstances. Sometimes a dealer will kick in
his financing kick-back if you take his financing. You can always pay
it off a month later but in this case there is a benefit to financing,
not cash.

Dealerships not selling below sticker? Where on Earth is that? Buying
below _invoice_ isn't at all unheard of.




Whether you have a mortgage or not, it's
all cash to him.

More or less, builders pay a lot for certain additions of difficulty to
get loans added in the mix.

I can't parse the above sentence.

It is all cash to them, more cash or less cash. Builders pay a lot for
certain things to help the buyer qualify or to compete with what the
builder in the next door model home is offering.

But those are all gimmicks that can be negotiated around. It's not
the cash sale that mattered. Again, if you came in with your own
financing, nothing would have changed. He would have given you the
same price. Money is money.




There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

I would say the the vast majority of new home buyers are paying as
little down as possible. And a good majority of those people can easily
afford the home they buy. An extreme example was my son, he bought our
home and financed as much as he could. 3 years later he paid the loan
off. We considered having a balloon loan on our current home to get
very low interest in the first five years and simply paying if off in 2
years, just to have a little more cush. We chose to not finance at all
and tightened the purse strings for a couple of years.

I don't think that's true at all. PMI is a *lot* of money and avoided
if at all possible. I only put 10% down on this house because I still
had my previous house (wife was still living in it) but as soon as
that sold. The PMI wasn't a big deal for a short time.

If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

Every one is in a zone determined by FEMA.

Pike's Peak? Get real. Well, I guess there was Noah...

I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

Just because I am not likely to be in a flood, it can happen. If your
storm drains clog a heavy rain can flood your home. I witnessed this
about 10 years ago. While I was "then" in a likely to flood area and
did have flood insurance, we had a tornado go through the neighborhood
followed by heavy rains for 2~3 hours. Rising water almost entered our
garage and did enter homes at the end of the street. The was no high
water our side of a few streets in our neighborhood. The drains were
stopped up with debris and the rain came down faster than than the
clogged drains could handle.

Can happen, but it's highly dependant on surrounding terrain. Clare's
situation is pretty obvious. We just had 6" of rain in a couple of
hours (under tornado warnings). No problems. The only storm drains
around here take the water off the street and dump it into the woods
(streams) behind the houses.

So, that is why I buy flood insurance even though I am not ins a prone
to flood area.



My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.

NO I did not say that. I was locked in with the $260 that I had already
paid, about 3 months later my agent and the flood insurance company
tried to make me cancel the policy so that I would have to immediately
pay more. They sent me a refund check which I sat on until the policy
expired. I then cashed the check and changed agents and flood
insurance companies. My new policy went up to about $700, after I
provided an elevation survey, otherwise I would have had to pay way more.

I'm confused. What would a mortgage have to do with it? You were
covered contractually.

On 4/8/2017 10:58 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 10:37:29 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/8/2017 10:26 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:55:00 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/7/2017 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:29:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/6/2017 2:12 PM, wrote:

Lots of rich folks (and businesses) have mortgages that they could pay off
this afternoon if they wanted to.

Oh, hell, I could have done that some time back but why bother?


To keep from having to make a money transfer or write another check.
Even automatic transfers can screw up. And if you are paying interest
at all it is costing you money to keep the mortgage.

Sure, my payment to the power company can screw up, too. So what? The
cost of money is so low, it doesn't matter.

Our builder knocked an additional $5K off the price of our house for
paying cash plus no extra expense for mortgage insurance, or mandatory
flood insurance.

Why did your builder care?

The builder does not have to pay extra points for loan qualification.

Why would the builder pay points on your loan?

Ok, this is getting kind'a silly. Often a builder will pay points to
lower the mortgage or to simply help with the expenses of the mortgage
approval, this happened with our first home. Builders ALWAYS pay points
to close the deal. If your builder did not you were had.

That's absurd. I shop mortgages for myself. Why would I take their
financing?

I don't know what you would do or what you might be thinking. And this
would work with whom ever you chose to use for financing. There are
costs involved with obtaining a home loan other than simply paying back
the P&I.

Huh? None of the costs have anything to do with the builder (or
anyone else you may buy a house from). If the builder is buying down
the interest to make his house look more attractive, well, just do it
yourself. The point is that the builder is getting a wad of cash. He
doesn't care if it's coming from you or a bank. Any "discounts" for
cash are just come-ons.

Anyway here is how our sale went. After negotiating and agreeing to the
the price to build the home the salesman asked if we already had an
approved loan. I said that we intended to pay cash. Well Mr. Leon you
get an extra $5K off of your negotiated price.

If you need further details I suggest you visit DRHorton.com

So the analogy is to take dealer financing on cars? In almost all
cases, that's silly.


I said nothing about taking anyone's financing. The builder wanted to
know if I was preapproved. The discount he gave us was for not having
to participate, to compete with the builder next door, with buying down
percentage points, loan origination fees, appraisals for the loan, extra
surveys for the loan, etc.

So he didn't give you anything (for purchasing with cash). He would
have given the same deal to anyone who walked in with financing.



What I said above. We got an additional $5K discount after the
negotiated price for paying cash.

On 4/8/2017 10:40 AM, Markem wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

If you are in a flood zone A - C, your mortgage provider will require
flood insurance, if you do not they will get it for you. The
difference when we were on the edge of a C zone, from us buy and them
providing was over $300 a year.


I think that is what I said, if you finance.

On 4/8/2017 11:01 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 08 Apr 2017 10:40:15 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

If you are in a flood zone A - C, your mortgage provider will require
flood insurance, if you do not they will get it for you. The
difference when we were on the edge of a C zone, from us buy and them
providing was over $300 a year.

It's the same for fire insurance. We had a mortgage company that was
trying their best to force us to buy fire insurance from them (they
refused my company's documentation and were automatically billing us).
Their automatic charge was 5x the norm. That wasn't the only BS they
were pulling, either. Scum.



If you settle for letting the mortgage company buy insurance for you,
you get what you deserve. You can simply buy from whom you want and
cancel the higher policy, the mortgage company can not do anything about
that. They can how ever require you to have the insurance and will
insure that you do by increasing your escrow to pay for it.
If your insurance company provides proof the mortgage company has to
adjust your escrow

On 4/8/2017 11:21 AM, wrote:
Snip


I can't parse the above sentence.

It is all cash to them, more cash or less cash. Builders pay a lot for
certain things to help the buyer qualify or to compete with what the
builder in the next door model home is offering.

But those are all gimmicks that can be negotiated around. It's not
the cash sale that mattered. Again, if you came in with your own
financing, nothing would have changed. He would have given you the
same price. Money is money.




There is no mortgage insurance unless you have more
house than you can afford.

Unless you finance 80% or more IIRC.

What I said. ;-)

I would say the the vast majority of new home buyers are paying as
little down as possible. And a good majority of those people can easily
afford the home they buy. An extreme example was my son, he bought our
home and financed as much as he could. 3 years later he paid the loan
off. We considered having a balloon loan on our current home to get
very low interest in the first five years and simply paying if off in 2
years, just to have a little more cush. We chose to not finance at all
and tightened the purse strings for a couple of years.

I don't think that's true at all. PMI is a *lot* of money and avoided
if at all possible. I only put 10% down on this house because I still
had my previous house (wife was still living in it) but as soon as
that sold. The PMI wasn't a big deal for a short time.

Well what you think is not gospel.





If you're in a flood plane, you're stupid
if you don't have flood insurance. Don't you have fire insurance?

I do not have fire insurance specifically, I have home owners insurance
which covers most anything except flood.

I'll bet it doesn't cover earthquakes (earth movement) either.

Every one is in a flood plane, some 500 year, 100 year, etc.

Not true.

Every one is in a zone determined by FEMA.

Pike's Peak? Get real. Well, I guess there was Noah...

Explain that to FEMA.




I am in
the 500 IIRC and buy the insurance anyway, relatively cheap. My
precious home was in a cheap zone until it was rezoned, that can happen
any time and if it happens and you still have a mortgage you may have to
get flood insurance. If you don't the flood insurance the mortgage
company will get it for you.

So?

Just because I am not likely to be in a flood, it can happen. If your
storm drains clog a heavy rain can flood your home. I witnessed this
about 10 years ago. While I was "then" in a likely to flood area and
did have flood insurance, we had a tornado go through the neighborhood
followed by heavy rains for 2~3 hours. Rising water almost entered our
garage and did enter homes at the end of the street. The was no high
water our side of a few streets in our neighborhood. The drains were
stopped up with debris and the rain came down faster than than the
clogged drains could handle.

Can happen, but it's highly dependant on surrounding terrain.Clare's
situation is pretty obvious. We just had 6" of rain in a couple of
hours (under tornado warnings). No problems. The only storm drains
around here take the water off the street and dump it into the woods
(streams) behind the houses.

You said So, I explained.


So, that is why I buy flood insurance even though I am not ins a prone
to flood area.



My precious home went from about $260 per year to $3600 for flood
insurance. That was just after Katrina. Had I still had a mortgage my
payments would have gone up $300 per month.

If you have a mortgage you may incur more liabilities than just the loan.

So you're saying that you would go without flood insurance? So you're
self-insuring.

NO I did not say that. I was locked in with the $260 that I had already
paid, about 3 months later my agent and the flood insurance company
tried to make me cancel the policy so that I would have to immediately
pay more. They sent me a refund check which I sat on until the policy
expired. I then cashed the check and changed agents and flood
insurance companies. My new policy went up to about $700, after I
provided an elevation survey, otherwise I would have had to pay way more.

I'm confused.

I know.

What would a mortgage have to do with it?

It? and there was no mention of a mortgage in the above paragraph.

You were
covered contractually.

Not arguing that at all.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:16:15 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/8/2017 10:40 AM, Markem wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

If you are in a flood zone A - C, your mortgage provider will require
flood insurance, if you do not they will get it for you. The
difference when we were on the edge of a C zone, from us buy and them
providing was over $300 a year.


I think that is what I said, if you finance.

Yes you did sir. I tried to provide a bit more info. I would say
though if you are in a flood zone and they will not provide insurance,
build your place on stilts.

wrote in
:

I'm over 100 feet higher than the Grand River and Laurel Creek at just
about the highest point in the whole neighborhood. It would be a more
than 1 in 500 year event to flood overland,

That's what I call the "Noah" flood zone. We're in it too.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On 4/8/2017 1:55 PM, Markem wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:16:15 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 4/8/2017 10:40 AM, Markem wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Where is floods all the time.

If you can't buy flood insurance you should take that as a warning.

If you are in a flood zone A - C, your mortgage provider will require
flood insurance, if you do not they will get it for you. The
difference when we were on the edge of a C zone, from us buy and them
providing was over $300 a year.


I think that is what I said, if you finance.

Yes you did sir. I tried to provide a bit more info. I would say
though if you are in a flood zone and they will not provide insurance,
build your place on stilts.


Yes. River homes built on the banks are typically on stilts and I
seriously doubt you could buy flood insurance for them either. ;~)

Shhhhhh! Don't mention the possibility of having to add flood insurance
to automobiles as an extra. Coverage covers vehicles for flood now but
if they get wind of it.......

I would say that hundreds if not thousands of vehicles get flooded every
year in Houston.