This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It is a discontinued tool, but since the new tool replacing this one isn't really much different, when this one was marked down they sold so many they raised the start price back up to $149. They still have the Bosch discount on the tool, though so you can get there for $129.

It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can see why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very well thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of 13', soft start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag is very sturdy, the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an accessory box that comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and sandpaper attachment, and a depth stop gauge. In other words, the tool is ready to go to work.

So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front door remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized boards on a garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one job. Then cut a ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked out by the home owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to replace it. I did it all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades are pretty expensive but they did hold up well. The machine was flawless and worked well. When cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot, there was no real vibration, and there was plenty of power at medium speed. The slower than normal speed kept me from burning up the blade as it kept the heat down.

When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the 2x4 shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular method of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this one was no different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put about 20 shims per door in place.. After securing the shims (wedges, really) I flush cut them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at this point. So I tried another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and shot through a piece of trim so the nails came out the other side. Took the 18ga nailer and did the same thing. Plugged in the saw, and buzzed through all the nails with no problems, cutting them flush in a few seconds with the bi metal blade I had been using all along. There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.

I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins hands down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does have less vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one a bit better. The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where it goes into the machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and it does a great job of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point grip on the saw blades, the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know how important that is, but if it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will take 12 over 8. I like the heavy duty nylon bag much more than the Fein's big plastic case as it is much, much smaller. The tool has a lower speed and then kicks up higher than the commensurate Fein model. Don't know that it means much on the top end, but the slower speeds are something I like on this type of tool.

Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting capabilities. Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better oscillator than the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid, DeWalt, HF) and the Fein was head and hands above them in performance and tool build. After some horse trading, I was took two back and stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly, and a bit under powered, the HF has been on the job for a few years and it did what it was supposed to do, for a princely $15.

I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!

Robert

wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It is a discontinued tool, but since the new tool replacing this one isn't really much different, when this one was marked down they sold so many they raised the start price back up to $149. They still have the Bosch discount on the tool, though so you can get there for $129.

It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can see why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very well thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of 13', soft start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag is very sturdy, the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an accessory box that comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and sandpaper attachment, and a depth stop gauge. In other words, the tool is ready to go to work.

So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front door remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized boards on a garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one job. Then cut a ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked out by the home owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to replace it. I did it all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades are pretty expensive but they did hold up well. The machine was flawless and worked well. When cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot, there was no real vibration, and there was plenty of power at medium speed. The slower than normal speed kept me from burning up the blade as it kept the heat down.

When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the 2x4 shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular method of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this one was no different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put about 20 shims per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges, really) I flush cut them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at this point. So I tried another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and shot through a piece of trim so the nails came out the other side. Took the 18ga nailer and did the same thing. Plugged in the saw, and buzzed through all the nails with no problems, cutting them flush in a few seconds with the bi metal blade I had been using all along. There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.

I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins hands down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does have less vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one a bit better. The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where it goes into the machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and it does a great job of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point grip on the saw blades, the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know how important that is, but if it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will take 12 over 8. I like the heavy duty nylon bag much more than the Fein's big plastic case as it is much, much smaller. The tool has a lower speed and then kicks up higher than the commensurate Fein model. Don't know that it means much on the top end, but the slower speeds are something I like on this type of tool.

Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting capabilities. Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better oscillator than the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid, DeWalt, HF) and the Fein was head and hands above them in performance and tool build. After some horse trading, I was took two back and stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly, and a bit under powered, the HF has been on the job for a few years and it did what it was supposed to do, for a princely $15.

I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!

Robert

Excellent review!

--
GW Ross

On 16/03/2017 7:06 @wiz, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its
hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html



I've found this thing invaluable in fitting doors and locks for security
screens in my place. So much easier to get those weird angles and cuts!
Very easy to control and
The slow and smooth start is the best for the use I make of it.
Had mine for quite a few years now, not sure if it is still available
here in Australia.

wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It
is a discontinued tool, but since the new tool replacing this one isn't
really much different, when this one was marked down they sold so many
they raised the start price back up to $149. They still have the Bosch
discount on the tool, though so you can get there for $129.

It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can see
why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very well
thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of 13', soft
start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag is very sturdy,
the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an accessory box that
comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and sandpaper attachment, and
a depth stop gauge. In other words, the tool is ready to go to work.

So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front door
remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized boards on a
garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one job. Then cut a
ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked out by the home
owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to replace it. I did it
all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades are pretty expensive but
they did hold up well. The machine was flawless and worked well. When
cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot, there was no real vibration, and
there was plenty of power at medium speed. The slower than normal speed
kept me from burning up the blade as it kept the heat down.

When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I
really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the 2x4
shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular method
of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this one was no
different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put about 20 shims
per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges, really) I flush cut
them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at this point. So I tried
another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and shot through a piece of trim
so the nails came out the other side. Took the 18ga nailer and did the
same thing. Plugged in the saw, and buzzed through all the nails with no
problems, cutting them flush in a few seconds with the bi metal blade I
had been using all along. There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.

I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins hands
down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does have less
vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one a bit better.
The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where it goes into the
machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and it does a great job
of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point grip on the saw blades,
the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know how important that is, but if
it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will take 12 over 8. I like the heavy
duty nylon bag much more than the Fein's big plastic case as it is much,
much smaller. The tool has a lower speed and then kicks up higher than
the commensurate Fein model. Don't know that it means much on the top
end, but the slower speeds are something I like on this type of tool.

Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting capabilities.
Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better oscillator than
the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid, DeWalt, HF) and the Fein
was head and hands above them in performance and tool build. After some
horse trading, I was took two back and stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly,
and a bit under powered, the HF has been on the job for a few years and
it did what it was supposed to do, for a princely $15.

I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two bathrooms
coming up, and these tools are made for maintenance/repair/remodeling
contractors. I saw this one at the low price, and now I wish I had bought
two! Still, even at $129 it is well worth the money. Then of course,
the elephant in the room if you are looking for a multitool... compare
the price of this tool to the commensurate model Fein and look at the
price difference. You could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!

Robert


Now you have a machine worthy of your talent! Now that and the circular
blade do a dandy job of cutting through Domino tenons on drawers.

On 3/16/17 3:06 AM, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its
hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their
President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch
promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with
some other purchases. It is a discontinued tool, but since the new
tool replacing this one isn't really much different, when this one
was marked down they sold so many they raised the start price back up
to $149. They still have the Bosch discount on the tool, though so
you can get there for $129.

It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can
see why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very
well thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of
13', soft start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag
is very sturdy, the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an
accessory box that comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and
sandpaper attachment, and a depth stop gauge. In other words, the
tool is ready to go to work.

So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front
door remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized
boards on a garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one
job. Then cut a ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked
out by the home owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to
replace it. I did it all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades
are pretty expensive but they did hold up well. The machine was
flawless and worked well. When cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot,
there was no real vibration, and there was plenty of power at medium
speed. The slower than normal speed kept me from burning up the
blade as it kept the heat down.

When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I
really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the
2x4 shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular
method of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this
one was no different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put
about 20 shims per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges,
really) I flush cut them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at
this point. So I tried another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and
shot through a piece of trim so the nails came out the other side.
Took the 18ga nailer and did the same thing. Plugged in the saw, and
buzzed through all the nails with no problems, cutting them flush in
a few seconds with the bi metal blade I had been using all along.
There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.

I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins
hands down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does
have less vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one
a bit better. The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where
it goes into the machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and
it does a great job of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point
grip on the saw blades, the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know
how important that is, but if it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will
take 12 over 8. I like the heavy duty nylon bag much more than the
Fein's big plastic case as it is much, much smaller. The tool has a
lower speed and then kicks up higher than the commensurate Fein
model. Don't know that it means much on the top end, but the slower
speeds are something I like on this type of tool.

Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting
capabilities. Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better
oscillator than the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid,
DeWalt, HF) and the Fein was head and hands above them in performance
and tool build. After some horse trading, I was took two back and
stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly, and a bit under powered, the HF has
been on the job for a few years and it did what it was supposed to
do, for a princely $15.

I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two
bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for
maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low
price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is
well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if
you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to
the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You
could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!

Robert


Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Snip


I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two
bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for
maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low
price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is
well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if
you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to
the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You
could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!

Robert


Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.



ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
$35-$40 each!

On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Snip


[snip again]

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.



ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
$35-$40 each!


Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!

One of the handiest tools in my collection. Any time I head out to do a
job at one of the kid's homes, it goes with me. Doesn't matter the job,
7 out of 10 times SOMETHING will crop up that this thing will cure easily.

On 3/16/2017 11:18 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Snip


[snip again]

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.



ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
$35-$40 each!


Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!

Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago
and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about
10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others
were able to compete.

It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10
or so years.




One of the handiest tools in my collection. Any time I head out to do a
job at one of the kid's homes, it goes with me. Doesn't matter the job,
7 out of 10 times SOMETHING will crop up that this thing will cure easily.

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.

Thanks!

The comparison in price is tricky, and I just tossed that number out. I will stick by my personal outlay since I bought it on CPO's Pres day sale for $84 delivered.

But there are shenanigans about in how the Fein is marketed. First, Fein developed the new tooless design with Bosch, and all the new tools from both manufacturers are using the 12 point "Starlock" mount, "3d" blade mount system. The older, least expensive Fein models on the market need an adapter purchased separately for the tool in order to use what is becoming the new industry standard mount for Fein and Bosch. Fein is abandoning their old wavy mount for the new Starlock 12 point in the near future as they feel that they can deliver better blades and accessories as the new blade capture device is superior. Both Fein and Bosch claim better energy transfer with the 12 point system, although the reviews I read didn't seem to find anything different on the Fein tools from
the old blade retention system to the new. One needs to be aware that the Fein Starlock 3d system of blade capture is NOT the same as the Bosch, as the Bosch is still flat mounted and can use just about any blade without adapters.

Personally, like our ink jet printers, I have always thought that Fein and company made their money from the blades and accessories, not the tool. This was evident to me when they were selling the same tool but as different models based on the start package of accessories. I didn't bite on a Fein 30 years ago (although as stated before, I wish I had)because of the blade cost. I could never choke down the fact that a moderate quality oscillating blade that could be ruined by touching a nail (no bi metal in those days) cost more than twice what I paid for a good carbide saw blade for my job site table saw. I am thinking now that Fein and Bosch have concocted a new blade style that is easily patented, so if you want to use their tools, you will eventually have to buy their blades. While some of the older tools can use the Starlock blades with an adapter, Fein has already released their first oscillator that uses ONLY Starlock blades.

Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and loop paper.

So yes, you can get a real Fein for under $200, but you have to be careful when comparing as you almost have to set up a spreadsheet for comparison these days.

The Bosch I bought came with 5 real Bosch blades, a depth stop and a sanding pad, (screw the sandpaper, it's .50 a sheet everywhere). The closest competing setup from Fein is about $226 from Amazon. It has 3 blades (I don't count a scraper as a blade since my old blades are GREAT scrapers after sanding off the dull teeth). To kind of match up to the Bosch, add in another $10 each or so for a couple of blades, and then another $20 for the depth stop that came with the Bosch (honestly, this is handy), and then the cost of the adapter to enable you to use the non Starlock blades.

It's tricky business.

I do know that I can buy just about any blade and it will fit the Bosch I just purchased. And since the new Bosch tools don't have the 3d feature, there will be plenty of knock off blades and accessories around. I don't want to fiddle with an adapter adapter bolt (as seen on a Fein video) and don't want to have to drive to the local Woodcraft to buy a $12 - $15 blade because I got caught short on a job.

One thing you noticed that was correct is that the price of the everyday utility blades has gone down, even for real Bosch and Fein blades. This go around, even the Fein 3d blades seem to average about $10 or so for the standards 1 3/8" straight, medium tooth carbon blades. Not bad.

So I learned two things after reading your post and doing a bit more research. First, I am completely confused as to what Fein is doing to market their product, but I am glad I didn't bite on the 3d Starlock system. I am thinking that 3d system (not well reviewed) is just something more to sell. The Bosch uses the 12 point flat blades and pretty much all other flat blade capture configurations including the split back blades and the 8 pt lock blades. The flat 8 and 12 point lock system blades are available /everywhere/ and at all manner of quality and price.

The second thing is that at $85, I should have bought two. One for the job, and one for me. Nuts.

Robert

On 3/16/2017 1:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
incentives for us, the buyers.

Snip

Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
loop paper.


A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)

On 3/16/2017 4:02 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2017 1:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
incentives for us, the buyers.

Snip

Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
loop paper.


A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)

Some things never change.
http://www.sears.com/search=tool%20set

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 1:10:08 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago
and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about
10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others
were able to compete.

It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10
or so years.

But... the lesson I learned many, many years ago is that if a tool will make you money year after year, is reliable, versatile, and the consumables are affordable you should buy it. My only misfire is the oscillating tool, and as I said even at the Fein prices of 30 years ago I should have bit. I have been using my awful HF for about 10-12 years now and can't imagine a remodel without it.

The point being, if anyone needs that level of joinery, convenience and can put that bad boy to work (or if they just enjoy it!), they should buy a Domino now. I have soul searched every time you put one of your "assembled with Dominoes" projects up with the details of assembly to see if there was any way I could get close to using one enough to justify it. Screw waiting until a clone comes out.

And you never know; they have tried more than once to make a clone doweling machine like the Mafell. You would think at $1300-$1400 someone could come up with something. Nope. The Frued was a miserable attempt, and pulled off the market after a short time. Makita had one, only in production for a short time. Triton still makes one that is around $200, but talking to users and reading reviews you are better off with something else. At one time I really wanted a doweling machine because back in the 70s we were still using a fair amount of dowels in cabinet construction and some aspects of general wood working.

So if they can't perfect a doweling machine that essentially drills two holes at the same time by a series of gears, using a fairly immovable set of holders and gears, how could they replicate the Domino? I have seen exploded views of the machine working and it is truly a precision instrument.

I think the Domino won't see a viable competitor for years.

Still trying to worm one into my business...

Robert

On 3/16/17 1:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
incentives for us, the buyers.

Thanks!

The comparison in price is tricky, and I just tossed that number out.
I will stick by my personal outlay since I bought it on CPO's Pres
day sale for $84 delivered.

But there are shenanigans about in how the Fein is marketed. First,
Fein developed the new tooless design with Bosch, and all the new
tools from both manufacturers are using the 12 point "Starlock"
mount, "3d" blade mount system. The older, least expensive Fein
models on the market need an adapter purchased separately for the
tool in order to use what is becoming the new industry standard mount
for Fein and Bosch. Fein is abandoning their old wavy mount for the
new Starlock 12 point in the near future as they feel that they can
deliver better blades and accessories as the new blade capture device
is superior. Both Fein and Bosch claim better energy transfer with
the 12 point system, although the reviews I read didn't seem to find
anything different on the Fein tools from the old blade retention
system to the new. One needs to be aware that the Fein Starlock 3d
system of blade capture is NOT the same as the Bosch, as the Bosch is
still flat mounted and can use just about any blade without
adapters.

Personally, like our ink jet printers, I have always thought that
Fein and company made their money from the blades and accessories,
not the tool. This was evident to me when they were selling the same
tool but as different models based on the start package of
accessories. I didn't bite on a Fein 30 years ago (although as stated
before, I wish I had)because of the blade cost. I could never choke
down the fact that a moderate quality oscillating blade that could be
ruined by touching a nail (no bi metal in those days) cost more than
twice what I paid for a good carbide saw blade for my job site table
saw. I am thinking now that Fein and Bosch have concocted a new blade
style that is easily patented, so if you want to use their tools, you
will eventually have to buy their blades. While some of the older
tools can use the Starlock blades with an adapter, Fein has already
released their first oscillator that uses ONLY Starlock blades.

Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
loop paper.

So yes, you can get a real Fein for under $200, but you have to be
careful when comparing as you almost have to set up a spreadsheet for
comparison these days.

The Bosch I bought came with 5 real Bosch blades, a depth stop and a
sanding pad, (screw the sandpaper, it's .50 a sheet everywhere). The
closest competing setup from Fein is about $226 from Amazon. It has
3 blades (I don't count a scraper as a blade since my old blades are
GREAT scrapers after sanding off the dull teeth). To kind of match
up to the Bosch, add in another $10 each or so for a couple of
blades, and then another $20 for the depth stop that came with the
Bosch (honestly, this is handy), and then the cost of the adapter to
enable you to use the non Starlock blades.

It's tricky business.

I do know that I can buy just about any blade and it will fit the
Bosch I just purchased. And since the new Bosch tools don't have the
3d feature, there will be plenty of knock off blades and accessories
around. I don't want to fiddle with an adapter adapter bolt (as seen
on a Fein video) and don't want to have to drive to the local
Woodcraft to buy a $12 - $15 blade because I got caught short on a
job.

One thing you noticed that was correct is that the price of the
everyday utility blades has gone down, even for real Bosch and Fein
blades. This go around, even the Fein 3d blades seem to average
about $10 or so for the standards 1 3/8" straight, medium tooth
carbon blades. Not bad.

So I learned two things after reading your post and doing a bit more
research. First, I am completely confused as to what Fein is doing
to market their product, but I am glad I didn't bite on the 3d
Starlock system. I am thinking that 3d system (not well reviewed) is
just something more to sell. The Bosch uses the 12 point flat
blades and pretty much all other flat blade capture configurations
including the split back blades and the 8 pt lock blades. The flat 8
and 12 point lock system blades are available /everywhere/ and at all
manner of quality and price.

The second thing is that at $85, I should have bought two. One for
the job, and one for me. Nuts.

Robert


It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your area.
I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on their pegs
from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the expensive blades
from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how expensive are they? :-)

Like I said, it's a really good thing that there are at least two
really high quality multi-tools from which to choose.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:10:10 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/16/17 3:06 AM, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its
hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their
President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch
promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with
some other purchases. It is a discontinued tool, but since the new
tool replacing this one isn't really much different, when this one
was marked down they sold so many they raised the start price back up
to $149. They still have the Bosch discount on the tool, though so
you can get there for $129.

It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can
see why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very
well thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of
13', soft start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag
is very sturdy, the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an
accessory box that comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and
sandpaper attachment, and a depth stop gauge. In other words, the
tool is ready to go to work.

So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front
door remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized
boards on a garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one
job. Then cut a ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked
out by the home owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to
replace it. I did it all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades
are pretty expensive but they did hold up well. The machine was
flawless and worked well. When cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot,
there was no real vibration, and there was plenty of power at medium
speed. The slower than normal speed kept me from burning up the
blade as it kept the heat down.

When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I
really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the
2x4 shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular
method of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this
one was no different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put
about 20 shims per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges,
really) I flush cut them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at
this point. So I tried another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and
shot through a piece of trim so the nails came out the other side.
Took the 18ga nailer and did the same thing. Plugged in the saw, and
buzzed through all the nails with no problems, cutting them flush in
a few seconds with the bi metal blade I had been using all along.
There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.

I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins
hands down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does
have less vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one
a bit better. The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where
it goes into the machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and
it does a great job of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point
grip on the saw blades, the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know
how important that is, but if it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will
take 12 over 8. I like the heavy duty nylon bag much more than the
Fein's big plastic case as it is much, much smaller. The tool has a
lower speed and then kicks up higher than the commensurate Fein
model. Don't know that it means much on the top end, but the slower
speeds are something I like on this type of tool.

Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting
capabilities. Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better
oscillator than the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid,
DeWalt, HF) and the Fein was head and hands above them in performance
and tool build. After some horse trading, I was took two back and
stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly, and a bit under powered, the HF has
been on the job for a few years and it did what it was supposed to
do, for a princely $15.

I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two
bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for
maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low
price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is
well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if
you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to
the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You
could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!

Robert


Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.

I have both the Bosch cordless and Dremel corded multi-tools. I like
'em both but if I didn't have the Dremel, at the current prices, I'd
probably have bought the Fein. I used one for a little while at a
Woodcraft demo and *really* liked it.

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/16/2017 11:18 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Snip


[snip again]

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.



ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
$35-$40 each!


Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!

Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago
and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about
10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others
were able to compete.

It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10
or so years.

Or SawStop clones in two or three years. ;-)


One of the handiest tools in my collection. Any time I head out to do a
job at one of the kid's homes, it goes with me. Doesn't matter the job,
7 out of 10 times SOMETHING will crop up that this thing will cure easily.

On 3/16/2017 8:00 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 1:10:08 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years
ago and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent
expired about 10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless
units that others were able to compete.

It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones
in 10 or so years.

But... the lesson I learned many, many years ago is that if a tool
will make you money year after year, is reliable, versatile, and the
consumables are affordable you should buy it. My only misfire is the
oscillating tool, and as I said even at the Fein prices of 30 years
ago I should have bit. I have been using my awful HF for about 10-12
years now and can't imagine a remodel without it.

I have learned that lesson too. You CAN blame the tool if it is not up
to your level of expertise. ;~)


The point being, if anyone needs that level of joinery, convenience
and can put that bad boy to work (or if they just enjoy it!), they
should buy a Domino now.

Totally agree.

I have soul searched every time you put one
of your "assembled with Dominoes" projects up with the details of
assembly to see if there was any way I could get close to using one
enough to justify it. Screw waiting until a clone comes out.

I think if I were in your shoes it would be extremely hard to justify
from a business point of view. Fortunately for me I did not have to
justify to learn the value of the tool. Now however, for what I use the
tool for, I could easily justify a replacement.




And you never know; they have tried more than once to make a clone
doweling machine like the Mafell. You would think at $1300-$1400
someone could come up with something. Nope. The Frued was a
miserable attempt, and pulled off the market after a short time.
Makita had one, only in production for a short time. Triton still
makes one that is around $200, but talking to users and reading
reviews you are better off with something else. At one time I really
wanted a doweling machine because back in the 70s we were still using
a fair amount of dowels in cabinet construction and some aspects of
general wood working.

So if they can't perfect a doweling machine that essentially drills
two holes at the same time by a series of gears, using a fairly
immovable set of holders and gears, how could they replicate the
Domino? I have seen exploded views of the machine working and it is
truly a precision instrument.

The problem with the doweling machine is that it can't adjust like the
Domino. The Domino allows you to make a slightly wider mortise so that
if the mating mortise does not align precisely that is not a problem.
In fact I pretty much never have exact fit mating mortises when there
are two or more Domino's to be used.

A doweling machine does not allow a wider hole/mortise for the dowel
therefore every dowel mortise/hole must be precisely mated.

I would not be surprised if the doweling machined did a great job but if
you needed 4 or more holes, user alignment may have become the issue.

I have never seen one, Marfell, up close so I might be way off base as
far as alignment goes. And for that matter there are plenty of doweling
jigs that probably are not much slower than using the machine.
Cutting mortises OTOH is a different story, compared with a mortiser the
Domino is probably 30 times faster, maybe more.



I think the Domino won't see a viable competitor for years.

I think their patents probably protect them for now.


Still trying to worm one into my business...

Robert

On 3/16/2017 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/16/2017 11:18 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Snip


[snip again]

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.



ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
$35-$40 each!


Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!

Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago
and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about
10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others
were able to compete.

It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10
or so years.

Or SawStop clones in two or three years. ;-)

Exactly. Bosch probably has no issue with waiting and tweaking until
they can sell with the blessings of the powers that regulate.

On 3/16/2017 8:45 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/16/17 1:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
incentives for us, the buyers.

Thanks!

The comparison in price is tricky, and I just tossed that number out.
I will stick by my personal outlay since I bought it on CPO's Pres
day sale for $84 delivered.

But there are shenanigans about in how the Fein is marketed. First,
Fein developed the new tooless design with Bosch, and all the new
tools from both manufacturers are using the 12 point "Starlock"
mount, "3d" blade mount system. The older, least expensive Fein
models on the market need an adapter purchased separately for the
tool in order to use what is becoming the new industry standard mount
for Fein and Bosch. Fein is abandoning their old wavy mount for the
new Starlock 12 point in the near future as they feel that they can
deliver better blades and accessories as the new blade capture device
is superior. Both Fein and Bosch claim better energy transfer with
the 12 point system, although the reviews I read didn't seem to find
anything different on the Fein tools from the old blade retention
system to the new. One needs to be aware that the Fein Starlock 3d
system of blade capture is NOT the same as the Bosch, as the Bosch is
still flat mounted and can use just about any blade without
adapters.

Personally, like our ink jet printers, I have always thought that
Fein and company made their money from the blades and accessories,
not the tool. This was evident to me when they were selling the same
tool but as different models based on the start package of
accessories. I didn't bite on a Fein 30 years ago (although as stated
before, I wish I had)because of the blade cost. I could never choke
down the fact that a moderate quality oscillating blade that could be
ruined by touching a nail (no bi metal in those days) cost more than
twice what I paid for a good carbide saw blade for my job site table
saw. I am thinking now that Fein and Bosch have concocted a new blade
style that is easily patented, so if you want to use their tools, you
will eventually have to buy their blades. While some of the older
tools can use the Starlock blades with an adapter, Fein has already
released their first oscillator that uses ONLY Starlock blades.

Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
loop paper.

So yes, you can get a real Fein for under $200, but you have to be
careful when comparing as you almost have to set up a spreadsheet for
comparison these days.

The Bosch I bought came with 5 real Bosch blades, a depth stop and a
sanding pad, (screw the sandpaper, it's .50 a sheet everywhere). The
closest competing setup from Fein is about $226 from Amazon. It has
3 blades (I don't count a scraper as a blade since my old blades are
GREAT scrapers after sanding off the dull teeth). To kind of match
up to the Bosch, add in another $10 each or so for a couple of
blades, and then another $20 for the depth stop that came with the
Bosch (honestly, this is handy), and then the cost of the adapter to
enable you to use the non Starlock blades.

It's tricky business.

I do know that I can buy just about any blade and it will fit the
Bosch I just purchased. And since the new Bosch tools don't have the
3d feature, there will be plenty of knock off blades and accessories
around. I don't want to fiddle with an adapter adapter bolt (as seen
on a Fein video) and don't want to have to drive to the local
Woodcraft to buy a $12 - $15 blade because I got caught short on a
job.

One thing you noticed that was correct is that the price of the
everyday utility blades has gone down, even for real Bosch and Fein
blades. This go around, even the Fein 3d blades seem to average
about $10 or so for the standards 1 3/8" straight, medium tooth
carbon blades. Not bad.

So I learned two things after reading your post and doing a bit more
research. First, I am completely confused as to what Fein is doing
to market their product, but I am glad I didn't bite on the 3d
Starlock system. I am thinking that 3d system (not well reviewed) is
just something more to sell. The Bosch uses the 12 point flat
blades and pretty much all other flat blade capture configurations
including the split back blades and the 8 pt lock blades. The flat 8
and 12 point lock system blades are available /everywhere/ and at all
manner of quality and price.

The second thing is that at $85, I should have bought two. One for
the job, and one for me. Nuts.

Robert


It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your area.
I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on their pegs
from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the expensive blades
from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how expensive are they? :-)

I have hit a few nails with the wood cutting blades. They wore out on
the first plunge. ;~( I had a lot of cutting to do and the bi-metal
blades just were not cutting fast enough, or so I thought. LOL
And that was when a 3 pack was north of $100.

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your area.
I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on their pegs
from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the expensive blades
from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how expensive are they? :-)

As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter, and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein blades.

I have hit a few nails with the wood cutting blades. They wore out on
the first plunge. ;~( I had a lot of cutting to do and the bi-metal
blades just were not cutting fast enough, or so I thought. LOL
And that was when a 3 pack was north of $100.

Those were scary days. In bulk, you can buy the genuine article for about $8 - $9 a blade. The problem is that the wood blades are still highly allergic to metal, and and the bimetal blades aren't much better than they were.

Not so good when cutting into nail filled wood trim, cutting into baseboard and hitting a sheetrock nail (or worse, a screw), or hitting an 8d that was toe nailed on the edge of a stud to straighten it out in a wall.

After trying every blade brand and style I could find, I finally found some that hit the sweet spot for me and I keep both wood cutting and bimetal in all 3 of my multitool tool bags. The blades are very inexpensive and I feel that I get about 90% performance at 15% of the cost of the name brands. So I keep a couple of each in the two oscillators that go to the jobs, and a couple in the new Bosch. The "real deal" blades stay with me and I won't use them unless I am sure I won't damage them by accident.

These tools can still be expensive to operate if you aren't careful.

Robert

On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
expensive are they? :-)

As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
blades.


Robert


Did they change something?
I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/17/2017 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
expensive are they? :-)

As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
blades.


Robert


Did they change something?
I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.



The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter.
I have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

On 2017-03-16, Just Wondering wrote:

On 3/16/2017 4:02 PM, Leon wrote:


A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)

Some things never change.

It's still better than having those sets "back ordered" then sent, one
piece at a time, at min shipping fees. IOW, a complete shipping order
fer each piece of a set. That's how Cooper Tools usta do it.

Infuriating!

nb

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:24:28 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Did they change something?
I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.

Mike, yes they have. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, and a well written review is worth about that much, check it out. This is a well written article, and the comments at the bottom certainly reflect my feelings. Is this a solution to a problem that didn't exist? Is this a marketing ploy?

http://toolguyd.com/bosch-fein-starl...rface-preview/

It has a drawing, and then a picture of the "3d system" blades with the large concave cap that looks like an old beer bottle cap.

Here is a look at the various adapters for he new Starlock, including one from Festool. I would be ****ED OFF beyond reason to have a $500 - $650 Festool multitool only to find that to use certain blades I will need to buy something else, a frickin' adapter for a tool that worked great as designed.

From what I have read, Bosch CLAIMS that their new offering will still use any blade out there with the tool as purchased, no adapter required. Fein on the other hand makes no bones about it, you need the adapter to use the old style blades with their new system. Note too, they do mention in the review/article that there is speculation that the new blade configuration is nothing more than a market gimmick.

Regardless of Bosch/Fein's claim that they will lock up better (no empirical evidence presented or found by me) and that they will reduce multitool injuries (huh?), I don't believe it.

It is obvious that these guys want back in the blade business. Repeat buyers of consumables are what make some of these tools profitable beyond their actual utility. I think that Fein has made that clear with their now "top line" model that will not use any blades except their new configuration. Now that the folks on the Pacific Rim have mastered their multi tool blade/accessory manufacturing I almost never buy the Fein/Bosch blades, or anyone else's. I have bought a bunch of these, and at $1.75 each they kill it.

https://www.amazon.com/Cibtek-Oscill.../dp/B00YG84DJ6

When I got my first batch, I put them on a tool, and cut through 10 nails I shot into a board for testing purposes. Barely showed any wear. Cut through a couple of yellow pine 2x6s, then through another 5 nails. As with all bi metals, the smaller teeth can make it a challenge to cut wood, but these worked as well as expected. After all that, the blade still had a lot of life left in it. Knowing that I could cut through sheet rock and into a 16 gauge plumbing shield, rip down the length of a nail that was used for a previous repair (like an 8d), cut downwards through a sole plate and nick concrete, and all the other stuff that happens to these blades during blind/plunge cuts, why would I spend $10 a piece when they could be ruined in a few seconds?

The only blades that beat them out on the job, and I wouldn't want to live on the difference, is the Bosch or Fein. DeWalt, Dremel, HF, Lowe's (Blue Hawk) are OK to awful in quality. Besides, if I am going to spend that much for blades, I am going to the top of the chain for an extra couple of bucks.

BTW, lots of Youtube chatter about the Starlock system, some like it, some don't, like most, they use these tools once or twice a month (if at all), but the ones I watched don't consider the cost of consumables as part of tool ownership and cost to own. Saving $7 - $8 a blade or more can easily put you in the range of buying other tools you might need.

I guess this blade change business ****es me off as I have lost money on it in the past. I had industrial rated circular saws that I spent a /lot/ of money on that had diamond arbors. Remember the diamond knockouts on the saw blades? Seen one lately? The new blades without the knockout were cheaper and easier to make, and rendered the knockout obsolete, even though it was vastly superior at holding blades. Likewise, same deal on recip saws. Bought two saws that used blades that had an extra indexing and hold down notch stamped into the blade. They quit making the saw blades with the notch in them, so the new blades (as we have now) wouldn't work as the peg in the saw chuck wouldn't allow the blade to sit flat when tightened. Had the same thing happen to my larger jig saw with an old Bosch I bought. I had to use Bosch blades as they had a slightly thicker shaft. An old Rockwell that was in the tool box for a while used the same blades. Then they started with "T" blades, and simply quit making the blades those saws used.

Each time these changes came about I was left holding tools that represented a good sized investment that were useless after blades stocks ran out.

I think that with the millions of multi tools of all sorts (including Fein!) that use the old system, blades and secondary market blades will continue to be available. Not too worried, but still ****ed off at myself for buying into tools that used only proprietary consumables. Never again.

Robert

On 3/17/17 9:51 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/17/2017 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
expensive are they? :-)

As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
blades.


Robert


Did they change something?
I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.



The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

My Fein has the splines on the mount and all its blades have the slots.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/17/17 6:34 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:24:28 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Did they change something? I've only had mine for a couple years
and I can use all the other blades.

Mike, yes they have. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, and
a well written review is worth about that much, check it out. This
is a well written article, and the comments at the bottom certainly
reflect my feelings. Is this a solution to a problem that didn't
exist? Is this a marketing ploy?

http://toolguyd.com/bosch-fein-starl...rface-preview/

It has a drawing, and then a picture of the "3d system" blades with
the large concave cap that looks like an old beer bottle cap.

Here is a look at the various adapters for he new Starlock, including
one from Festool. I would be ****ED OFF beyond reason to have a $500
- $650 Festool multitool only to find that to use certain blades I
will need to buy something else, a frickin' adapter for a tool that
worked great as designed.

From what I have read, Bosch CLAIMS that their new offering will
still use any blade out there with the tool as purchased, no adapter
required. Fein on the other hand makes no bones about it, you need
the adapter to use the old style blades with their new system. Note
too, they do mention in the review/article that there is speculation
that the new blade configuration is nothing more than a market
gimmick.

Regardless of Bosch/Fein's claim that they will lock up better (no
empirical evidence presented or found by me) and that they will
reduce multitool injuries (huh?), I don't believe it.

It is obvious that these guys want back in the blade business.
Repeat buyers of consumables are what make some of these tools
profitable beyond their actual utility. I think that Fein has made
that clear with their now "top line" model that will not use any
blades except their new configuration. Now that the folks on the
Pacific Rim have mastered their multi tool blade/accessory
manufacturing I almost never buy the Fein/Bosch blades, or anyone
else's. I have bought a bunch of these, and at $1.75 each they kill
it.

https://www.amazon.com/Cibtek-Oscill.../dp/B00YG84DJ6

When I got my first batch, I put them on a tool, and cut through 10
nails I shot into a board for testing purposes. Barely showed any
wear. Cut through a couple of yellow pine 2x6s, then through another
5 nails. As with all bi metals, the smaller teeth can make it a
challenge to cut wood, but these worked as well as expected. After
all that, the blade still had a lot of life left in it. Knowing that
I could cut through sheet rock and into a 16 gauge plumbing shield,
rip down the length of a nail that was used for a previous repair
(like an 8d), cut downwards through a sole plate and nick concrete,
and all the other stuff that happens to these blades during
blind/plunge cuts, why would I spend $10 a piece when they could be
ruined in a few seconds?

The only blades that beat them out on the job, and I wouldn't want to
live on the difference, is the Bosch or Fein. DeWalt, Dremel, HF,
Lowe's (Blue Hawk) are OK to awful in quality. Besides, if I am going
to spend that much for blades, I am going to the top of the chain for
an extra couple of bucks.

BTW, lots of Youtube chatter about the Starlock system, some like it,
some don't, like most, they use these tools once or twice a month (if
at all), but the ones I watched don't consider the cost of
consumables as part of tool ownership and cost to own. Saving $7 -
$8 a blade or more can easily put you in the range of buying other
tools you might need.

I guess this blade change business ****es me off as I have lost money
on it in the past. I had industrial rated circular saws that I spent
a /lot/ of money on that had diamond arbors. Remember the diamond
knockouts on the saw blades? Seen one lately? The new blades
without the knockout were cheaper and easier to make, and rendered
the knockout obsolete, even though it was vastly superior at holding
blades. Likewise, same deal on recip saws. Bought two saws that
used blades that had an extra indexing and hold down notch stamped
into the blade. They quit making the saw blades with the notch in
them, so the new blades (as we have now) wouldn't work as the peg in
the saw chuck wouldn't allow the blade to sit flat when tightened.
Had the same thing happen to my larger jig saw with an old Bosch I
bought. I had to use Bosch blades as they had a slightly thicker
shaft. An old Rockwell that was in the tool box for a while used the
same blades. Then they started with "T" blades, and simply quit
making the blades those saws used.

Each time these changes came about I was left holding tools that
represented a good sized investment that were useless after blades
stocks ran out.

I think that with the millions of multi tools of all sorts (including
Fein!) that use the old system, blades and secondary market blades
will continue to be available. Not too worried, but still ****ed off
at myself for buying into tools that used only proprietary
consumables. Never again.

Robert


My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount.
I guess I have a newer one.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:50:08 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount.
I guess I have a newer one.

If you bought on or around late May of 2016, then it might be a Starlock. It would be marked as a Starlock machine.

If you can pick up a blade with the bottle cap top without touching the release/lock lever like this

http://www.kelvinpowertools.com/blog...tarlock-system

you have a Starlock.

If your blades look like a bottle cap at the mounting head of the spindle like this

https://fein.com/en_us/starlock/

you have Starlock machine.

Robert

-MIKE- wrote:
On 3/17/17 9:51 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/17/2017 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
expensive are they? :-)

As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
blades.


Robert


Did they change something?
I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.



The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

My Fein has the splines on the mount and all its blades have the slots.



No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)

On 3/18/17 1:50 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:50:08 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount. I guess I have a
newer one.

If you bought on or around late May of 2016, then it might be a
Starlock. It would be marked as a Starlock machine.

If you can pick up a blade with the bottle cap top without touching
the release/lock lever like this

http://www.kelvinpowertools.com/blog...tarlock-system

you have a Starlock.

If your blades look like a bottle cap at the mounting head of the
spindle like this

https://fein.com/en_us/starlock/

you have Starlock machine.

Robert


Ok, now I get it. Well according to that page and what I see on the
blades, they still fit my Fein. I just have to use two hands. The
tool-less, quick fit lever on my Fein is certainly light years ahead of
the old wrench method.

That new system certainly is slick, but it's certainly not enough to
make me covet it or go trading in any time soon.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/17 10:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/17 1:50 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:50:08 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount. I guess I have a
newer one.

If you bought on or around late May of 2016, then it might be a
Starlock. It would be marked as a Starlock machine.

If you can pick up a blade with the bottle cap top without
touching the release/lock lever like this

http://www.kelvinpowertools.com/blog...tarlock-system



you have a Starlock.

If your blades look like a bottle cap at the mounting head of the
spindle like this

https://fein.com/en_us/starlock/

you have Starlock machine.

Robert


Ok, now I get it. Well according to that page and what I see on the
blades, they still fit my Fein. I just have to use two hands. The
tool-less, quick fit lever on my Fein is certainly light years ahead
of the old wrench method.

That new system certainly is slick, but it's certainly not enough to
make me covet it or go trading in any time soon.


I do think it's thick in irony that they came out with a new "standard"
blade to fit all multitools but there's still 3 different kinds. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:18:15 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)

Whoa... talk about an early model!! How old is that machine?

I believe you never had a problem with it. Think about it, all your circular saws use friction fit, and unless you have a dirty bushing the blades never slip.

OTOH, I thought the Fein machine started with the wavy pattern around the spindle hole, but no lugs. If it is these, I never saw any reason to change the configuration as I couldn't see how the blade could ever slip.

goo.gl/F24sDF

Robert

On 3/18/2017 1:04 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:18:15 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade,
strictly friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you
need the adapter. I have not found the non lugs to be an issue
however.

No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)

Whoa... talk about an early model!! How old is that machine?


Got it in August 2006

I bought just as there was talk about the lugged model was soon to
appear. found it on the internet for $306. It has the metal case and
IIRC was considered the TOP. Had lots of sand paper and sanding
profiles, e-cut blades, sound blade, and grout blade.



I believe you never had a problem with it. Think about it, all your
circular saws use friction fit, and unless you have a dirty bushing
the blades never slip.

OTOH, I thought the Fein machine started with the wavy pattern around
the spindle hole, but no lugs. If it is these, I never saw any
reason to change the configuration as I couldn't see how the blade
could ever slip.

goo.gl/F24sDF

Robert

In article 91664aad-3b4b-4b6a-8566-
, nailshooter41
@aol.com says...

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:18:15 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)

Whoa... talk about an early model!! How old is that machine?

I believe you never had a problem with it. Think about it, all your circular saws use friction fit, and unless you have a dirty bushing the blades never slip.

OTOH, I thought the Fein machine started with the wavy pattern around the spindle hole, but no lugs. If it is these, I never saw any reason to change the configuration as I couldn't see how the blade could ever slip.

goo.gl/F24sDF

Robert

Nope. My Fein is flat as a pancake in those
areas. And the "adapter" is pretty much
worthless unless you weld it on.

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in
one direction, the one in which (if the saw is
well designed) the friction tightens the bolt.
The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the
bolt, the other loosens it. After a while no
matter how much you tighten it, it comes loose.
Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

The blades you link are for the SuperCut, not
the original MultiMaster.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 10:24:30 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/17 10:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/17 1:50 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:50:08 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount. I guess I have a
newer one.

If you bought on or around late May of 2016, then it might be a
Starlock. It would be marked as a Starlock machine.

If you can pick up a blade with the bottle cap top without
touching the release/lock lever like this

http://www.kelvinpowertools.com/blog...tarlock-system



you have a Starlock.

If your blades look like a bottle cap at the mounting head of the
spindle like this

https://fein.com/en_us/starlock/

you have Starlock machine.

Robert


Ok, now I get it. Well according to that page and what I see on the
blades, they still fit my Fein. I just have to use two hands. The
tool-less, quick fit lever on my Fein is certainly light years ahead
of the old wrench method.

That new system certainly is slick, but it's certainly not enough to
make me covet it or go trading in any time soon.


I do think it's thick in irony that they came out with a new "standard"
blade to fit all multitools but there's still 3 different kinds. :-)

That's the nice thing about standards. There are so many to choose
from! ;-)

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in
one direction, the one in which (if the saw is
well designed) the friction tightens the bolt.
The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the
bolt, the other loosens it. After a while no
matter how much you tighten it, it comes loose.
Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit. Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine. They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened, cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert

In article e01900d6-2090-4aea-906b-83cd6d29e7a9
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in
one direction, the one in which (if the saw is
well designed) the friction tightens the bolt.
The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the
bolt, the other loosens it. After a while no
matter how much you tighten it, it comes loose.
Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit. Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine. They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened, cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert

Fein ultimately did recognize the issue and made
a half-hearted attempt at a retrofit for the
early tools--a little washer with four lugs on
one side to engage the blade and some carbide
grit on the other that was supposed to bite into
the platen (or whatever you call the part that
the blade is tightened against). Didn't work
very well because you couldn't tighten it enough
to get it to bite. Some people took a stick
welder to the thing--one of these days I'm going
to try that.

On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert


I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
enough.
The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.

I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.

On 3/19/2017 8:50 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert


I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
enough.
The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.

I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.

Just another thought on this. If your patent runs out you need to
"improve" the design so that you will have an advantage over the soon to
come competition. Had slippage been a serious problem I think they
would have addressed it some where in the 20 years before the patent ran
out.
It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that
the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.

IIRC the time my blade loosened was when I had the blade turned a little
left of the direct line of push, naturally the blade wanted to turn the
attachment bolt in the loosening direction.

But with simply pushing the tool in line with the direction that the
blade is pointed, I have not has a loosening issue since.

Also, and this may be the trick too, the rep that I spoke to indicated
to not simply push the blade and tool straight into the work. He
indicated to also use a slight back and forth motion to help clear the
teeth. I did find that the tool cuts faster when using that motion.

In article 0LmdnVRyEOR0DFPFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 3/19/2017 8:50 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert


I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
enough.
The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.

I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.

Just another thought on this. If your patent runs out you need to
"improve" the design so that you will have an advantage over the soon to
come competition. Had slippage been a serious problem I think they
would have addressed it some where in the 20 years before the patent ran
out.
It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that
the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.

IIRC the time my blade loosened was when I had the blade turned a little
left of the direct line of push, naturally the blade wanted to turn the
attachment bolt in the loosening direction.

But with simply pushing the tool in line with the direction that the
blade is pointed, I have not has a loosening issue since.

Also, and this may be the trick too, the rep that I spoke to indicated
to not simply push the blade and tool straight into the work. He
indicated to also use a slight back and forth motion to help clear the
teeth. I did find that the tool cuts faster when using that motion.

You're either very lucky or have the muscles of
a gorilla if you've never had the blade on a
first generation Fein pop loose in the middle of
a cut.

On 3/19/17 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert


Believe it or not, my HF tool did *not* have those lugs and it rarely
loosened.
I know HF added them at some point, but I have the model without.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/19/2017 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/19/17 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert


Believe it or not, my HF tool did *not* have those lugs and it rarely
loosened.
I know HF added them at some point, but I have the model without.



I really believe the lugs are a feature that is not necessary unless you
tend to be hard on the tool, and maybe not even then.