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On 3/19/2017 9:53 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article 0LmdnVRyEOR0DFPFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 3/19/2017 8:50 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM,
wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
that had to be an issue they realized in testing.

I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
blade slippage was the way the tool operated.

Robert


I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
enough.
The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.

I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.


Just another thought on this. If your patent runs out you need to
"improve" the design so that you will have an advantage over the soon to
come competition. Had slippage been a serious problem I think they
would have addressed it some where in the 20 years before the patent ran
out.
It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that
the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.

IIRC the time my blade loosened was when I had the blade turned a little
left of the direct line of push, naturally the blade wanted to turn the
attachment bolt in the loosening direction.

But with simply pushing the tool in line with the direction that the
blade is pointed, I have not has a loosening issue since.

Also, and this may be the trick too, the rep that I spoke to indicated
to not simply push the blade and tool straight into the work. He
indicated to also use a slight back and forth motion to help clear the
teeth. I did find that the tool cuts faster when using that motion.


You're either very lucky or have the muscles of
a gorilla if you've never had the blade on a
first generation Fein pop loose in the middle of
a cut.


I tighten enough that the tool, if it stopped in the left extreme of
travel, upside down, will turn to the right extreme direction when
tightening. And as I stated earlier pushing in line with the length of
the cutting attachment is very helpful. If the tool is right side up
and the blade is pointed right of center and you push in line with tool,
not the blade, the blade can loosen. In that case you need to push with
you hand on the head directly behind and in line with the cutter. And
as I mentioned before, a talk with the rep ironed out several issues.



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On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 9:13:06 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that
the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.


Well said, and very true. Every manufacturing company whether it is refrigerators or skateboards lives on "innovation", real or perceived. "Innovation" brings the latest and greatest item to the market, and brings a reason to purchase to the consumer.

To me, that is what is going on now with the "Starlock" system with the bottle cap blades and accessories. They claim that the new system transfers XX% more power from the motor to the tool head, and that it prevents blade slippage and possible operator injury. I think it is collusion that the two best manufacturers have come up with a new configuration for tools that will a new standard whether we want it or not.

Since I have never seen (I take J. Clarke's word on his experience with his)a lugged Fein or Bosch that had blade slippage. Neither of my 8 lug HF models have any, and I certainly wouldn't hold them up to any high standard of manufacturing tolerances.

There may be some marginal improvement with the new blade configuration, but I think at best this was a solution that was looking for a problem.

Robert


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"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...

A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)


Reminds me of the convoluted formula Sears would compute the HP ratings
on their electric motors.

Dave in SoTex

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On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It is a discontinued

Robert


So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?

Thanks,

Mike


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On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:47:09 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It is a discontinued

Robert


So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?


I recommend the tail-less. I had a Dremel tailed twitcher before I
bought the Bosch tail-less. I haven't used the Dremel since.

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Michael wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases.
It is a discontinued

Robert


So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?

Thanks,

Mike


I would ask the question, are you likely going to use the tool enough to
wear it out in the next 5-6 years.
If not I would suggest getting the tailed one. Manufacturers are
notorious for changing battery design and you may end up with a tool that
you may not be able to find replacement batteries for. And i have not see
a battery rebuild place that rebuilds Lithium Ion.

Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.


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On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 06:08:14 -0500, Leon wrote:

Michael wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases.
It is a discontinued

Robert


So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?

Thanks,

Mike


I would ask the question, are you likely going to use the tool enough to
wear it out in the next 5-6 years.
If not I would suggest getting the tailed one. Manufacturers are
notorious for changing battery design and you may end up with a tool that
you may not be able to find replacement batteries for. And i have not see
a battery rebuild place that rebuilds Lithium Ion.


I would have reversed that completely. If you're using it so much
that you'll wear it out in a short time, buy a Fein or green, tailed
tool. You'll probably kill a lot batteries in this time. I've had my
Bosch for close to ten years (probably eight) and they're still making
the same batteries. OTOH, it's provably time they change. ;-)

Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.


I like cordless tools that I don't use for hours at a time. For quick
jobs, you can't beat cordless. They're also better for tools you may
be using at odd angles (drills, and small saws).

All of your flashlights have power cords? ;-)
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On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 6:08:22 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
Michael wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30...efault,pd.html

I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases.
It is a discontinued

Robert


So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?

Thanks,

Mike


I would ask the question, are you likely going to use the tool enough to
wear it out in the next 5-6 years.
If not I would suggest getting the tailed one. Manufacturers are
notorious for changing battery design and you may end up with a tool that
you may not be able to find replacement batteries for. And i have not see
a battery rebuild place that rebuilds Lithium Ion.

Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.


Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.

Mike
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On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:


Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.


Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.

Mike


Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I don't use
the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90% in the shop,
10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in the house.

If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.


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On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:20:58 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:


Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.


Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.

Mike


Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I don't use
the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90% in the shop,
10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in the house.

If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.


My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that. That vanity is in there pretty good.

Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.

After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.

So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.

Mike
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Michael wrote in
:


My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in
the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile.
After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to
install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that.
That vanity is in there pretty good.

Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating
tool will be very helpful there as well.

After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.

So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.

Mike


Go with the tailed version and get your projects done. You can always
buy a untailed version later, when you find one for a good price.

Btw, oscillating tools tend to be much slower than circular saws. It's
just their nature. Trying to cut an 8' board that usually takes a minute
or two with a circular saw will take an hour or better with the
oscillating saw, even with good technique. Just want to keep your
expectations in line.

Puckdropper

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On 4/16/2017 11:06 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Michael wrote in
:


My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in
the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile.
After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to
install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that.
That vanity is in there pretty good.

Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating
tool will be very helpful there as well.

After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.

So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.

Mike


Go with the tailed version and get your projects done. You can always
buy a untailed version later, when you find one for a good price.

Btw, oscillating tools tend to be much slower than circular saws. It's
just their nature. Trying to cut an 8' board that usually takes a minute
or two with a circular saw will take an hour or better with the
oscillating saw, even with good technique. Just want to keep your
expectations in line.

Puckdropper


YES! the oscillating tool is not a replacement of a jig saw or circular
saw. It simply gets into tight areas that would other wise be almost
impossible to access. But it does this with sanding and grout removing
capabilities also. I use mine a lot to flush cut through Domino's that
reinforce my drawer joints.
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On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 12:29:20 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 4/16/2017 11:06 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Michael wrote in
:


My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in
the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile.
After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to
install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that.
That vanity is in there pretty good.

Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating
tool will be very helpful there as well.

After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.

So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.

Mike


Go with the tailed version and get your projects done. You can always
buy a untailed version later, when you find one for a good price.

Btw, oscillating tools tend to be much slower than circular saws. It's
just their nature. Trying to cut an 8' board that usually takes a minute
or two with a circular saw will take an hour or better with the
oscillating saw, even with good technique. Just want to keep your
expectations in line.

Puckdropper


YES! the oscillating tool is not a replacement of a jig saw or circular
saw. It simply gets into tight areas that would other wise be almost
impossible to access. But it does this with sanding and grout removing
capabilities also. I use mine a lot to flush cut through Domino's that
reinforce my drawer joints.


Yes, there's no way I'd use it to cut 8 feet plywood sheets. I'll need it to cut the OSB that's flush to the cabinets and walls. I'll also use it to scrap linoleum where I need to. I'm also picturing using it to clear out tight areas so I can fit in the plywood and backer board.

Mike
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On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote:

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:20:58 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:


Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.

Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.

Mike


Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I don't use
the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90% in the shop,
10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in the house.

If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.


My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that. That vanity is in there pretty good.


I'd never do it. I remove cabinets and tile under them, as well.

Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.


Absolutely, but you never know what part of the job will be such a
PITA that you'll thank yourself for having it handy. ;-)

After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.


I don't use mine all that often but when it's needed, nothing else
comes close.

So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.



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On 4/16/17 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:
On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:20:58 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:


Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me
personally the only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the
option, are drills.

Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer
constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often
prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating
tool.

Mike


Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I
don't use the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90%
in the shop, 10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in
the house.

If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.


My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum
in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and
tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity
and to install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think
about that. That vanity is in there pretty good.


Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.

Is there a reason you're taking out the OSB? If it's sound, there's no
reason to. As for backer board, you may want to look into Schluter
products. It's now carried at most home Depots.


Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the
oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.


Front room? Is this a living room or part of the bathroom. There's no
need for cement board under tile that won't be subjected to constant
moisture. All you need is to decouple the mortar from the wood
subfloor. That can be done old-school with simple tar-paper, or using
more modern sheet products.


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-MIKE- wrote in news
Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.

*snip*

It sure wouldn't hurt to buy a couple extra boxes of tile and store them
somewhere safe. That way, if you need to get a new vanity with a different
foot print you'll have the tile available to fill in the gaps.

10 years down the road, there's a great chance your tile won't be available
anywhere.

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On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 11:08:50 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/16/17 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:



My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum
in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and
tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity
and to install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think
about that. That vanity is in there pretty good.


Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.

Is there a reason you're taking out the OSB? If it's sound, there's no
reason to. As for backer board, you may want to look into Schluter
products. It's now carried at most home Depots.


Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the
oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.


Front room? Is this a living room or part of the bathroom. There's no
need for cement board under tile that won't be subjected to constant
moisture. All you need is to decouple the mortar from the wood
subfloor. That can be done old-school with simple tar-paper, or using
more modern sheet products.


Mike,

I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.

The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.

Thanks,

Mike
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On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:

First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job site and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch mentioned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old, hard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used it for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get ****ed off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time. And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge that could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (circular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn't one of them.

These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what they do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what, and these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They are dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can be used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not made for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large project work requiring a lot wood cutting.

I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years and years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for light work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me and don't break out anything corded.


I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.


You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is steering your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture, and in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the strand structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the water will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in your grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, failure of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundation, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in heavy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you can see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.from tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delaminate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes the adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc. as above.

The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.


Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer that you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be used for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't rely on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, talk to an installer.

I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is procedure we follow:

(( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))

1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lasting tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...

2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...

3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...

4) Tape the seams. ...

5) Lay the tile in thin-set.

We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before adhering the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I spray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit on the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will draw out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give a less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, cheap insurance.

I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that their grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remember, grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout is to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout joints on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.

Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if you follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will last as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! Make sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will stand the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.

Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are doing with this! We all love work in progress threads.

Robert
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On 4/17/2017 1:56 AM, wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:

First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job site and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch mentioned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old, hard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used it for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get ****ed off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time. And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge that could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (circular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn't one of them.

These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what they do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what, and these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They are dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can be used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not made for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large project work requiring a lot wood cutting.

I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years and years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for light work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me and don't break out anything corded.


I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.


You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is steering your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture, and in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the strand structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the water will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in your grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, failure of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundation, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in heavy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you can see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.from tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delaminate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes the adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc. as above.

The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.


Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer that you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be used for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't rely on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, talk to an installer.

I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is procedure we follow:

(( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))

1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lasting tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...

2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...

3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...

4) Tape the seams. ...

5) Lay the tile in thin-set.

We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before adhering the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I spray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit on the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will draw out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give a less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, cheap insurance.

I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that their grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remember, grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout is to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout joints on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.

Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if you follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will last as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! Make sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will stand the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.

Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are doing with this! We all love work in progress threads.

Robert



And there you have it. The final word. :~) Thank you Robert!


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On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 1:56:19 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:

First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job site and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch mentioned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old, hard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used it for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get ****ed off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time.. And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge that could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (circular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn't one of them.

These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what they do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what, and these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They are dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can be used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not made for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large project work requiring a lot wood cutting.

I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years and years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for light work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me and don't break out anything corded.


I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.


You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is steering your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture, and in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the strand structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the water will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in your grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, failure of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundation, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in heavy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you can see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.from tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delaminate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes the adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc.. as above.

The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.


Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer that you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be used for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't rely on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, talk to an installer.

I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is procedure we follow:

(( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))

1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lasting tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...

2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...

3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...

4) Tape the seams. ...

5) Lay the tile in thin-set.

We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before adhering the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I spray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit on the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will draw out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give a less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, cheap insurance.

I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that their grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remember, grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout is to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout joints on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.

Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if you follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will last as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! Make sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will stand the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.

Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are doing with this! We all love work in progress threads.

Robert


Thanks, Robert! What are your thoughts on removing the vanity in the bathroom to tile underneath? I'm inclined not to do it, but I'm really on the fence.

Thanks,

Mike
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On 4/17/2017 9:28 AM, Michael wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 1:56:19 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:

First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job site and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch mentioned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old, hard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used it for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get ****ed off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time. And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge that could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (circular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn't one of them.

These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what they do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what, and these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They are dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can be used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not made for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large project work requiring a lot wood cutting.

I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years and years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for light work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me and don't break out anything corded.


I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.


You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is steering your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture, and in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the strand structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the water will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in your grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, failure of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundation, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in heavy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you can see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.from tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delaminate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes the adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc. as above.

The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.


Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer that you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be used for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't rely on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, talk to an installer.

I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is procedure we follow:

(( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))

1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lasting tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...

2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...

3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...

4) Tape the seams. ...

5) Lay the tile in thin-set.

We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before adhering the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I spray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit on the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will draw out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give a less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, cheap insurance.

I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that their grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remember, grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout is to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout joints on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.

Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if you follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will last as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! Make sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will stand the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.

Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are doing with this! We all love work in progress threads.

Robert


Thanks, Robert! What are your thoughts on removing the vanity in the bathroom to tile underneath? I'm inclined not to do it, but I'm really on the fence.

Thanks,

Mike



I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity makes it
easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I simply build
them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re tiling it is not that
much more trouble to cover the whole floor.
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On 4/17/17 12:33 AM, Michael wrote:
On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 11:08:50 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/16/17 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:



My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the
linoleum in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer
board, and tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to
take out the vanity and to install tile around it. I'd be curious
what others think about that. That vanity is in there pretty
good.


Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing
and reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled
under it.

Is there a reason you're taking out the OSB? If it's sound,
there's no reason to. As for backer board, you may want to look
into Schluter products. It's now carried at most home Depots.


Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room
and install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the
oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.


Front room? Is this a living room or part of the bathroom. There's
no need for cement board under tile that won't be subjected to
constant moisture. All you need is to decouple the mortar from the
wood subfloor. That can be done old-school with simple tar-paper,
or using more modern sheet products.


Mike,

I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a
backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in
3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of
course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.

The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over
OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and
backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how
to do it.

Thanks,

Mike


They "whys" are as important as the "hows."
There are newer technologies available that can save you a a lot of
work, possibly money, and which may do a better job than what has always
been used.

I'm just saying make sure the conditions that require doing what they
are telling you to do actually exist in your situation.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

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On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity makes it
easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I simply build
them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re tiling it is not that
much more trouble to cover the whole floor.


Nope. I like that one!

There is only one instance where I don't pull toilet and vanity, and that is when it is a "landlord" job, where my client wants the work done as cheaply as possible. Otherwise, I agree that it is best to pull the work. Be aware that if you don't pull the cabinet, you can have some screwy looking effects depending on the thickness of your tile, the adhesive, the board, etc. that can creep up about an inch depending on what you do.

I pull the cabs, baseboards and toilets for a better, cleaner install. I don't like a funky look to it where you can feel the cabinet height is off when you are washing your hands, the baseboards look short, and the toilet is now part of a permanent install from being grouted in. Besides, when you pull everything, the tile job in a bath is a snap! A lot fewer cuts and plenty of room to work on the floor instead of wedging yourself in there to work. When you start your work, remember to take the entry door off the hinges as well for the duration of the job to get that out of your way, too. It is surprising how much faster and how much better a job turns out when access is easy.

And as Leon said, building your own vanities has its place. If you are aspiring to do some cabinetry, the bath is a great place to start. A simple carcass style constructed cabinet can be quite satisfying to build, and can give you enough cabinet experience to be proud of yourself. A good carcass, nice facing, well fitted doors and a drawer bank is a nice size, doable project.

Be aware that if you pull the cabinet you will need to take that new oscillating tool and raise the holes for your plumbing in the cabinet back the corresponding amount of your tile/substrate thickness. Likewise, you will need to reset the top as it is no doubt caulked in at the edges, and may need to reset a mirror.

When you do a project like this, think like a contractor. Imagine yourself walking into the bathroom and thinking, "what would be my very first thing to do?", make yourself a list of all the tasks needed, form a time line, and then a final list of organization and schedule. With that, you will leave out almost nothing, you can always tell what needs to be done next, and where you are time-wise in the project when your significant other says, "OK, tell me again how much longer until I can use this bathroom again".

Robert


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On 17 Apr 2017 05:24:45 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.

*snip*

It sure wouldn't hurt to buy a couple extra boxes of tile and store them
somewhere safe. That way, if you need to get a new vanity with a different
foot print you'll have the tile available to fill in the gaps.


And "filling the gaps" looks like the hack it is.

10 years down the road, there's a great chance your tile won't be available
anywhere.


You won't be able to match the grout, either, so best just bite the
bullet and tile under the damned thing. Tiling is a lot of work, it's
not that much more work to pull a vanity and really saves the work of
cutting little pieces around it, to say nothing of the added planning
complications.


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On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:45:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity makes it
easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I simply build
them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re tiling it is not that
much more trouble to cover the whole floor.


Nope. I like that one!

There is only one instance where I don't pull toilet and vanity, and that is when it is a "landlord" job, where my client wants the work done as cheaply as possible. Otherwise, I agree that it is best to pull the work. Be aware that if you don't pull the cabinet, you can have some screwy looking effects depending on the thickness of your tile, the adhesive, the board, etc. that can creep up about an inch depending on what you do.

I pull the cabs, baseboards and toilets for a better, cleaner install. I don't like a funky look to it where you can feel the cabinet height is off when you are washing your hands, the baseboards look short, and the toilet is now part of a permanent install from being grouted in. Besides, when you pull everything, the tile job in a bath is a snap! A lot fewer cuts and plenty of room to work on the floor instead of wedging yourself in there to work. When you start your work, remember to take the entry door off the hinges as well for the duration of the job to get that out of your way, too. It is surprising how much faster and how much better a job turns out when access is easy.

And as Leon said, building your own vanities has its place. If you are aspiring to do some cabinetry, the bath is a great place to start. A simple carcass style constructed cabinet can be quite satisfying to build, and can give you enough cabinet experience to be proud of yourself. A good carcass, nice facing, well fitted doors and a drawer bank is a nice size, doable project.

Be aware that if you pull the cabinet you will need to take that new oscillating tool and raise the holes for your plumbing in the cabinet back the corresponding amount of your tile/substrate thickness. Likewise, you will need to reset the top as it is no doubt caulked in at the edges, and may need to reset a mirror.

When you do a project like this, think like a contractor. Imagine yourself walking into the bathroom and thinking, "what would be my very first thing to do?", make yourself a list of all the tasks needed, form a time line, and then a final list of organization and schedule. With that, you will leave out almost nothing, you can always tell what needs to be done next, and where you are time-wise in the project when your significant other says, "OK, tell me again how much longer until I can use this bathroom again".

Robert


Thanks, Robert! It's pretty great getting professional advice here. While I'm in there, I think I'll just go ahead and pull the big tub too and put in a whirlpool. Might as well do it all.

Mike
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On 4/17/17 11:45 AM, wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity
makes it easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I
simply build them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re
tiling it is not that much more trouble to cover the whole floor.


Nope. I like that one!

There is only one instance where I don't pull toilet and vanity, and
that is when it is a "landlord" job, where my client wants the work
done as cheaply as possible. Otherwise, I agree that it is best to
pull the work. Be aware that if you don't pull the cabinet, you can
have some screwy looking effects depending on the thickness of your
tile, the adhesive, the board, etc. that can creep up about an inch
depending on what you do.

I pull the cabs, baseboards and toilets for a better, cleaner
install. I don't like a funky look to it where you can feel the
cabinet height is off when you are washing your hands, the
baseboards look short, and the toilet is now part of a permanent
install from being grouted in. Besides, when you pull
everything, the tile job in a bath is a snap! A lot fewer cuts
and plenty of room to work on the floor instead of wedging yourself
in there to work. When you start your work, remember to take the
entry door off the hinges as well for the duration of the job to get
that out of your way, too. It is surprising how much faster and how
much better a job turns out when access is easy.

And as Leon said, building your own vanities has its place. If you
are aspiring to do some cabinetry, the bath is a great place to
start. A simple carcass style constructed cabinet can be quite
satisfying to build, and can give you enough cabinet experience to
be proud of yourself. A good carcass, nice facing, well fitted
doors and a drawer bank is a nice size, doable project.

Be aware that if you pull the cabinet you will need to take that new
oscillating tool and raise the holes for your plumbing in the
cabinet back the corresponding amount of your tile/substrate
thickness. Likewise, you will need to reset the top as it is no doubt
caulked in at the edges, and may need to reset a mirror.

When you do a project like this, think like a contractor. Imagine
yourself walking into the bathroom and thinking, "what would be my
very first thing to do?", make yourself a list of all the tasks
needed, form a time line, and then a final list of organization and
schedule. With that, you will leave out almost nothing, you can
always tell what needs to be done next, and where you are time-wise
in the project when your significant other says, "OK, tell me again
how much longer until I can use this bathroom again".

Robert


I retract my previous statement about not pulling the vanity.
Like you, I was thinking about the "landlord" type of job.
I forgot how annoying it is the see the shrunken toe kick and weird trim
transitions around cabinets like that.

I have to see some pretty horrendous trim/tile awkwardness every day in
my own home due to previous owners who fancied themselves "flippers"
after watching to many HGTV shows. :-)


--

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"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

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