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Default Shear strength of screws

I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough
stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." I need to
cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack.
I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick.

Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a
screw if you know the load?
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On 4/6/2012 11:05 AM, Gramp's shop wrote:
I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough
stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." I need to
cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack.
I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick.

Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a
screw if you know the load?


My favorite screw for that application is a "Spax":

http://www.mcfeelys.com/spax-screws

I prefer them for attaching cabinets to walls these days because of the
superior shear strength.

That said, most engineers will tell you that for many
construction/structural projects nails will provide more shear strength
than screws, so it really depends upon the application.

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Default Shear strength of screws



"Gramp's shop" wrote in message
...
I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough stuff
as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." I need to cobble
together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack. I've got a
box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick.

Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a screw
if you know the load?


I never thought about it. Just that so many screws today are absolute crap.
If you shear off a screw while driving it into the wood, it is a bad sign.
And it depends where you buy them too. I have had terrible luck with deck
screws and lag screws from the local home depot. But the local ace hardware
store gave me screws that were higher in quality, stronger and a few cents
cheaper too.

If I got any kind of basic repair outside or in the garage these days, I
just use their deck screws. It ain't art or furniture. But it is strong.
They don't shear off and they don't rust outside.

The old standby rule about strength for fasteners is to estimate how many
will do the job. Then put twice as many in there. I have always been
accused of using too many screws anyway.



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Default Shear strength of screws

On 4/6/2012 11:05 AM, Gramp's shop wrote:
I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough
stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." I need to
cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack.
I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick.

Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a
screw if you know the load?


What you also need to ask is if there is a way to determine the quality
of the screw you are using. I know of #6 screws that are stronger than
#10's.

All things be in equal, McFeeleys.com has the specifically information
that you are asking and IIRC their catalog has a chart of this also.
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On Friday, April 6, 2012 12:05:36 PM UTC-4, Gramp's shop wrote:
I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough
stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." I need to
cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack.
I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick.

Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a
screw if you know the load?


Those will do. If you are concerned, smear a little construction adhesive in there too. Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.

RP


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On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.


That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?

I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.

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On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.


That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?


Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.



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Default Shear strength of screws

Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.

On 4/11/2012 7:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.


That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?


Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.



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Default Shear strength of screws

On 4/11/2012 7:05 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.



Typically hurricane straps add tremendous strength if you are building
for wind storm resistance.
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:37:51 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.


That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?


Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.

Using the right number and pattern of screws will achieve the same
thing. You need a larger screw to give the same strength, generally
speaking, because the root diameter if the screw is significantly less
than the nominal diameter, and the strength of the screw (yield) is
lowered by the stress rizers formed by the malformation of the metal
at the thread root. Screws COULD be made that were almost as strong as
the equivalent sized nail, but they would be way to expensive to be
practical. An "old school" wood screw is stronger than today's
"construction screw" or "deck screw" or, particularly, the "drywall
screw".

The holding ability of a screw excedes that of a nail in most cases -
but with a "deck screw" or "drywall screw" it also often excedes the
yield strength of the screw itself. An "ardox" nail is a compromize -
it's holding ability approaches that of a screw - with the overall
strength of a nail, but without the removeability of a screw. A guy
who used to work in construction with my dad used to drive screws with
a hammer - he said the funny head and other features of the screw were
just to make them easier to remove.
I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.




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Default Shear strength of screws

Swingman writes:
On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.


That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?


Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


Particularly in earthquake country where shear walls are commonly required
by the building codes. The nailing patterns are very specific.

scott
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:05:15 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.

On 4/11/2012 7:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.

That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?


Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.



A straight nail driven into end grain has about the same holding power
(in tension) as yesterday's chewing gum.
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:15:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 7:05 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.



Typically hurricane straps add tremendous strength if you are building
for wind storm resistance.


If you google "strength of wood screws" you will find
http://www.awc.org/pdf/.../Part11Woo...pp133to139.pdf.

Download the PDF and read it. You will find out all you ever wanted to
know about wood screws, their strength and application. (and likely
even MORE than you wanted to know). A good read.
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:15:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 7:05 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.



Typically hurricane straps add tremendous strength if you are building
for wind storm resistance.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...69aEy4gb6jrsjw
gives more information on screw strength and calculations. It is a
LONG URL and may not work for you, but you can find it by googling as
well. Google "wood mechanical fasteners".
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:15:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 7:05 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.



Typically hurricane straps add tremendous strength if you are building
for wind storm resistance.

www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2001/ramme01c.pdf will give you the PDF
on wood: mechanical fasteners.
www.awc.org/pdf/ndscom97.pdf will find you my first reference to "Part
XI: Wood Screws" in secion XI. All you ever wanted to know about wood
screws (particularly in construction) from the American Forest and
Paper Association.


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writes:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:05:15 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.

On 4/11/2012 7:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.

That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?

Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.


A straight nail driven into end grain has about the same holding power
(in tension) as yesterday's chewing gum.


When it is nailed from the top plate or sill into stud endgrain, it suffices since
the roof holds them together - the nail is to keep the stud aligned, any forces
will be perpendicular to the nail.
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:15:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 7:05 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.



Typically hurricane straps add tremendous strength if you are building
for wind storm resistance.



Look up "fasten master" structural screws. They are approved for a LOT
of general construction use - and their "timberlok" screw can be used
in place of hurricane straps to fasten trusses to double top sills -
as an example - replacing the tiedown strap and 12 nails with ONE
fastener.
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On 12 Apr 2012 01:17:25 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:05:15 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.

On 4/11/2012 7:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.

That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?

Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.


A straight nail driven into end grain has about the same holding power
(in tension) as yesterday's chewing gum.


When it is nailed from the top plate or sill into stud endgrain, it suffices since
the roof holds them together - the nail is to keep the stud aligned, any forces
will be perpendicular to the nail.

Untill you get wind lift. Or siesmic activity. Which is why
toe-nailing USED to be pretty well a requirement in the days of plain
nails. Ardox nails help. TimberLok screws can be used in place of
hurricane straps to connect trusses to sills. Fully code compliant,
and you won't mistake them for a common screw or lag bolt - and you
don't need to remove them or X-Ray to know how long the timberlok is
(they are clearly marked on their black hex heads)
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And put on earth quake straps on the foundation and sil board.
That will work in other cases of strong wind. A force trying to
flatten a house.

Another thing we did in earth quake country was to put in shear walls.
Often the outer boards are 1x tongue and grove but they silip and slide
in wind. On the inside put sheet ply It doesn't have to be all walls,
but some of the side on all sides. Keep that side from laying over.

Martin

On 4/11/2012 7:15 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 7:05 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.



Typically hurricane straps add tremendous strength if you are building
for wind storm resistance.

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Scott Lurndal wrote:
Swingman writes:
On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.

That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?


Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


Particularly in earthquake country where shear walls are commonly required
by the building codes. The nailing patterns are very specific.


We have a separate shear wall inspection in the locale where I generally
build, and you are correct, the nailing pattern for that inspection, as
well as full height structural sheathing on single story, and required
overlap of structural sheathing between floors, is very specific.

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In article ,
says...

On 12 Apr 2012 01:17:25 GMT,
(Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:05:15 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

Used to be that framing had to be toe nailed...
Now I see nails used from top and bottom sil to studs. Not as strong.
The toe nailing really locks it in from both sides.
straight nailing will not withstand storm forces as much.
But then again, most roofs will easily lift before the framing gives.

On 4/11/2012 7:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/11/2012 6:33 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:26:06 -0700, RP wrote:

Up here in the Northeast, if we are framing a house, we cannot use
screws. Must use nails or you will not pass the framing inspection.

That seems a little strange - what's the rational given, if any?

Nails generally have a greater shear strength than screws, thus the
requirement in some areas are very specific as to the nails used, their
size, makeup, and nailing patterns.


I learned the hard way that any carpentry (as opposed to ww) work I do,
someday I, or someone who comes after, will have to take it apart again.
I use screws for all that now.


A straight nail driven into end grain has about the same holding power
(in tension) as yesterday's chewing gum.


When it is nailed from the top plate or sill into stud endgrain, it suffices since
the roof holds them together - the nail is to keep the stud aligned, any forces
will be perpendicular to the nail.

Untill you get wind lift. Or siesmic activity. Which is why
toe-nailing USED to be pretty well a requirement in the days of plain
nails. Ardox nails help. TimberLok screws can be used in place of
hurricane straps to connect trusses to sills. Fully code compliant,


For certain values of "code". Building codes in the US are not
standardized. There is a model code but no requirement that it be used
by any given locality.

and you won't mistake them for a common screw or lag bolt - and you
don't need to remove them or X-Ray to know how long the timberlok is
(they are clearly marked on their black hex heads)



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On 4/12/2012 12:54 AM, Richard wrote:
On 4/11/2012 10:20 PM, Swingman wrote:
wrote:
On 4/11/2012 9:00 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/11/2012 8:33 PM, wrote:

TimberLok screws can be used in place of
hurricane straps to connect trusses to sills. Fully code compliant,
and you won't mistake them for a common screw or lag bolt - and you
don't need to remove them or X-Ray to know how long the timberlok is
(they are clearly marked on their black hex heads)

You simply cannot make a blanket statement like the above without
checking your local building code, as well as the Engineering
specifications for the particular structure.

Without question, you will most assuredly find that your options in
that
regard are severely limited when it comes to structural members.



I don't think he was addressing "approval by political elect", but
structural reliability.


WTF does "approval by political elect" have to do with building codes and
structural requirements set forth by an engineer?


Clare's a pretty decent engineer.


Then he should know better than to make a blanket statement indicating
that a fastener/method claiming to be "fully code compliant" with a
model building code is not necessarily accepted by any jurisdiction
using that model building code as a basis for building standards.

Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

When an engineer calls for a specific fastener, joist hanger, strapping
method, etc, in an approved structural/framing plan, he does so in
compliance with the specifics of the local code in the jurisdiction in
which the structure is built. Any deviation from the engineer's specific
fastener, joist hanger, strapping method by someone implementing the
plan risks obtaining both engineering approval of the "as built"
structure, and failure of any inspection under that jurisdition's code.

In short, just because something is claiming to be "fully code
compliant", does not mean that it can be used.

Once again, check your local building code, and your engineer approved
structural plan, BEFORE using any fastener in structural members.

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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, Swingman wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.


Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Have you heard about this Karl?
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...-no-resistance
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On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.


Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.


Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.

Have you heard about this Karl?
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...-no-resistance


Pretty cool ... heretofore most of that stuff is/was done at
temperatures not found outside a laboratory, but I expect it won't be
long before it becomes a reality in the real world.


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On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.


Has there been noticeable resistance to it?...


Yeah, I think Chicago still requires flex conduit instead.

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On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.


Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.


Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?


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Default Shear strength of screws

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.


Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?


+1


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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:44:11 -0500, -MIKE-
Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?


I'm thinking there might be less labour for plumbers on the home owner
side of the issue. I'd expect home owners doing a pex install for
themselves where they might run to a plumber to have a copper water
pipe soldered.

I mean, how difficult is it to install pex? Don't bend it too much and
crimp a collar onto a line. Can't get too much simpler than that.
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Default Shear strength of screws

On 4/12/12 11:23 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:44:11 -0500,
Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?


I'm thinking there might be less labour for plumbers on the home owner
side of the issue. I'd expect home owners doing a pex install for
themselves where they might run to a plumber to have a copper water
pipe soldered.

I mean, how difficult is it to install pex? Don't bend it too much and
crimp a collar onto a line. Can't get too much simpler than that.


I recently installed a bunch for my bathroom remodel and I'm still
scratching my head thinking, "It can't be this easy, there has to be
more to it than this."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply



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Default Shear strength of screws

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:54 AM, Richard wrote:
On 4/11/2012 10:20 PM, Swingman wrote:
wrote:
On 4/11/2012 9:00 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/11/2012 8:33 PM, wrote:

TimberLok screws can be used in place of
hurricane straps to connect trusses to sills. Fully code compliant,
and you won't mistake them for a common screw or lag bolt - and you
don't need to remove them or X-Ray to know how long the timberlok is
(they are clearly marked on their black hex heads)

You simply cannot make a blanket statement like the above without
checking your local building code, as well as the Engineering
specifications for the particular structure.

Without question, you will most assuredly find that your options in
that
regard are severely limited when it comes to structural members.



I don't think he was addressing "approval by political elect", but
structural reliability.

WTF does "approval by political elect" have to do with building codes and
structural requirements set forth by an engineer?


Clare's a pretty decent engineer.


Then he should know better than to make a blanket statement indicating
that a fastener/method claiming to be "fully code compliant" with a
model building code is not necessarily accepted by any jurisdiction
using that model building code as a basis for building standards.

Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

When an engineer calls for a specific fastener, joist hanger, strapping
method, etc, in an approved structural/framing plan, he does so in
compliance with the specifics of the local code in the jurisdiction in
which the structure is built. Any deviation from the engineer's specific
fastener, joist hanger, strapping method by someone implementing the
plan risks obtaining both engineering approval of the "as built"
structure, and failure of any inspection under that jurisdition's code.

In short, just because something is claiming to be "fully code
compliant", does not mean that it can be used.


No, but it means it can be SPEC'd. If the engineer signs off on the
design using a "code compliant" Timberlok in place of say, aStrongTie
and 12 nails, it is going to be pretty difficult for an inspector to
fail the structure on the basis of their correctly applied use.
And it IS acceptable for an engineer to spec "or equivalent" in the
design, particularly if he provides the specification the device must
meet -such as pull-out strength and shear strength.

Once again, check your local building code, and your engineer approved
structural plan, BEFORE using any fastener in structural members.


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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?


+1

Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.
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On 4/12/12 12:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?


+1

Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.


Except that a good General Contractor isn't an idiot and keeps track of
the prevailing labor rates and costs of materials and know what a job
should cost. Free market would drive that other plumber out of business
real quick when the $1400 guy starts getting all the work. Hence, his
other old school buddy down on the local code board.


But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


Boooo! Bad answer, you sound like an old guy. :-)
There are lazy, sloppy plumbers who do shoddy work with whatever
material they are working with. I've seen some ugly ass copper piping
with big balls of solder stuck all over the joints and all kinds of
extraneous elbows and crap with bad decisions in where to run the lines
where the lines are in the way of everything that comes later, pipes too
close to the outside of studs and plates. And I've seen great copper
jobs.... the kind that belongs in instruction books.

In my experience, the guys who care about their work, care about it when
they did copper and they care about it after moving to Pex. Why run Pex
in straight run with 90 degree bends if you don't have to? If it's not
in the way and it makes sense, why do it it based on the same physical
restrictions as copper? If it's neater to do it that way and works out
better, then do it. But don't do it just because "that's the way we did
copper."

I've seen some beautiful Pex runs from manifolds and nothing was messy
and you could trace every line. It's the plumber, not the plumbing.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

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On 4/12/2012 12:32 PM, wrote:

No, but it means it can be SPEC'd. If the engineer signs off on the
design using a "code compliant" Timberlok in place of say, aStrongTie
and 12 nails, it is going to be pretty difficult for an inspector to
fail the structure on the basis of their correctly applied use.


And it IS acceptable for an engineer to spec "or equivalent" in the
design, particularly if he provides the specification the device must
meet -such as pull-out strength and shear strength.


Absolutely no argument that anything can be spec'ed ... (and this has
gotten off the intended beaten path and onto a rabbit trail).

However, and in MY experience, an engineer or architect will rarely
attempt to specify (as with the aforementioned use of PEX) something
that is specifically disallowed in the jurisdiction's building code
(even if by default, as when specifically stating where they (screws in
this case) _can_ be used ... as with ledger boards, decks, etc) if a
solution that is unquestionably, and specifically in compliance, is
indeed available.

And for good reason ... it _always_ costs (me, mostly) time, money and,
most importantly, GOOD WILL, for any of the parties involved being
forced to take issue with an inspector ... and any architect or engineer
who puts me in that position without good reason stands a good chance of
not being on the next job.

That said, back to the main issue:

No disrespect intended at all, I was simply taking exception to what
appears to be an qualified statement that since a screw type fastener is
deemed to be "fully code compliant", to infer that it may be used,
without regard, as an optional replacement, is both arguably incorrect,
and misleading to the intended audience.

I maintain, once again, that the ONLY reasonable action is to check both
your local building code, and engineer approved structural plan, BEFORE
using _any_ fastener in structural members just about anywhere in North
America.

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