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On 4/13/2012 3:18 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/13/2012 2:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where
else would you run the plumbing? ;~)


That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot
conceive of
a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap
alternative
that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home
without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't
put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from
painting
cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just
can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas!


I'll give you a dime for every basement in the Texas if you'll give me a
penny for everyone in the "frost belt".

They're not unheard of, but rarer than unicorn poop on a roof.

Occasionally someone (usually from the NE) with more money than sense,
will get a code variance at huge cost and risk and actually build one
... in the trade we call them what they will soon be ... "indoor
swimming pools".




We call those "root cellars", not basements.
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On 4/13/2012 2:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
I just bought what Home Depot had (Sharkbite). They did go
together just as advertised, and they are indeed leak proof, so no complaint
on that end. But - they don't make a rigid run. The line in and the line
out have quite a bit of play in them so the entire run is somewhat floppy.
Probably will never leak, but it will always be floppy unless you put in
some additional hangers. For a quick fix - I use them. For something more
permanant - I sweat a joint.


What do you guys think about this apparatus:

http://www.garrettwade.com/copper-pi...ol/p/04D01.02/

I'm reasonably adept at sweating joints, but there have been some times when
this thing would have come in handy, assuming it works as advertised.

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On 4/13/2012 2:18 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:


I have never had problems with pipes freezing in our house, apparently
my neighbour has, although I have seen her walking around *in* her house
with her winter coat on for hours.


Hummmm ... does your wife know you're watching, and "for hours"? g,d,&r


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On 4/13/12 5:26 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/13/2012 2:18 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:


I have never had problems with pipes freezing in our house, apparently
my neighbour has, although I have seen her walking around *in* her house
with her winter coat on for hours.


Hummmm ... does your wife know you're watching, and "for hours"? g,d,&r


Just a casual walk through the kitchen, neighbour is a teacher, she
marks papers in her kitchen, under a 25W light bulb (or there about,
really dim light), my wife is much better looking. :-)

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
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On 4/13/12 1:17 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:33:56 -0500,
wrote:

On 4/12/12 9:19 PM,
wrote:
I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst.
I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves.

While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink
while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap
connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in
about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it
maintains the trap water to keep out the stink.
I sure hope you get rid of the rubber trap when you do the final
install.


Is there a reason for this, other than looks?
I was planning on replacing it, but honestly, I can't think of easier
access for clean-out.

There are good traps that are as easy to clean out, and won't
deteriorate into mush in 5 years. I used one ONCE. Never again. The
interior went first - everything stuck to it, so the drain was ALWAYS
slow. I put in a self clearing trap. It has a "vane" for lack of a
better description that you turn with a knob and the trap is cleared
of whatever has deposited in it. Made of clear Lexan, if I remember
correctly.


I've seen the lexan one. As for your experience with the rubber trap...
I suspect someone may have used liquid plumber in it, which was probably
what gummed it up.


I use sharkbites on copper in locations where soldering
would be difficult/dangerous/impossible or where I can see having to
disconnect them sometime in the possibly forseable future. I wouldn't
use them as standard practice in place of a soldered joint on copper,
or a clamped joint on PEX.


Again, why? Do they have a track record of leaking?


Not that I'm aware of, or I wouldn't use them at all, particularly in
difficult applications. I just find them expensive, clunky, and
complex for normal use. Heck, I can solder, so why would I use them
for normal joints????


Because they are a lot easier and from what I've seen, higher quality.
BTW, they aren't as expensive around here. They regular valves, when
cheaper, are only 20% or less cheaper than the gator valves.


I haven't been using sharkbites for standard, permanent connections,
simply because crimps are so cheap and easy. But the sharkbite valves
are only about 20% more than regular valves and are high quality ball
valves.

Perhaps in PEX I might use them - if I were to use PEX.


Hey, don't look now, but I think there are some kids on your lawn! :-p


--

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On 4/13/2012 5:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Hey, don't look now, but I think there are some kids on your lawn! :-p


+1

while wondering whether Canadian humo(u)r is sufficiently akin for that
to register?)



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"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 4/13/2012 7:12 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.


Don't know about mouse pee, but I've been thinking that the relatively
soft outer shell of PEX would be more apt to be chewed on than copper
pipe.


As it turns out, rodent damage is one of the few drawbacks of using PEX.
Maximum effective pest control is an _absolute requirement_ for anyone
contemplating using the product.
================================================== =====================
I have never had a problem with rodents around here. My five member feline
hit squad makes sure of that.

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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:18:09 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too
expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four
houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)


The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
.. .
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their
value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or
are yours different from what I see around here?


There are two types of "permanent" PEX fasteners.

The one preferred for house plumbing is a copper ring that requires a
fairly expensive tool to compress the ring smoothly around the pipe.

The other, apparently preferred for lawn sprinkler systems, uses a
stainless ring with an "ear" which is squeezed by a less expensive
crimping tool - it leaves the crimped "ear" sticking out from the
ring.

(Perhaps the copper ring is the preferred technique, but won't stand
up to burial, so the stainless crimp is accepted for that - just my
guess...)


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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:53:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 1:20 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM,
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1
Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.

I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.


Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had
one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze
either.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold.
However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs)



But should you develop a leak at any fixture or pipe leading to that
fixture can you isolate that feed and leave every thing else on?

I can isolate my hot, hard cold, and soft cold water separately en
mass, and I can shut off any outlet separately to replace or service
the faucet or valve. All service valves have been replaced with ball
valves, so I don't run into seized shutoff valves.

So I guess the short answer is yes.
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:42:27 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings.
Too expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in
four houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)

The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse
pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize
their value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or
are yours different from what I see around here?


Not sure Clare. I just bought what Home Depot had (Sharkbite). They did go
together just as advertised, and they are indeed leak proof, so no complaint
on that end. But - they don't make a rigid run. The line in and the line
out have quite a bit of play in them so the entire run is somewhat floppy.
Probably will never leak, but it will always be floppy unless you put in
some additional hangers. For a quick fix - I use them. For something more
permanant - I sweat a joint.

Were you talking about sharkbites or PEX clamps??
The sharkbites are generally BRASS, not copper - and the pex clamps
appear to be either steel or aluminum. I'm thinking steel, but I've
never checked - and never actually installed one. PEX clamps, if loose
enough to allow any movement on the fitting WILL leak. If not today,
real soon.
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:18:10 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 4/13/2012 2:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where
else would you run the plumbing? ;~)


That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of
a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative
that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home
without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't
put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting
cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just
can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas!


I'll give you a dime for every basement in the Texas if you'll give me a
penny for everyone in the "frost belt".

They're not unheard of, but rarer than unicorn poop on a roof.

Occasionally someone (usually from the NE) with more money than sense,
will get a code variance at huge cost and risk and actually build one
... in the trade we call them what they will soon be ... "indoor
swimming pools".

Unless the builder's name is Noah.
What New Orleans needs is a statute requiring ferrocrete (hull)
basements in ALL new construction homes. Then next time the flood
barriers are breached they'll all turn into yachts or houseboats.


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On 4/13/12 8:29 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:42:27 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings.
Too expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in
four houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)

The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse
pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize
their value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or
are yours different from what I see around here?


Not sure Clare. I just bought what Home Depot had (Sharkbite). They did go
together just as advertised, and they are indeed leak proof, so no complaint
on that end. But - they don't make a rigid run. The line in and the line
out have quite a bit of play in them so the entire run is somewhat floppy.
Probably will never leak, but it will always be floppy unless you put in
some additional hangers. For a quick fix - I use them. For something more
permanant - I sweat a joint.

Were you talking about sharkbites or PEX clamps??
The sharkbites are generally BRASS, not copper - and the pex clamps
appear to be either steel or aluminum. I'm thinking steel, but I've
never checked - and never actually installed one. PEX clamps, if loose
enough to allow any movement on the fitting WILL leak. If not today,
real soon.


http://www.watts.com/pages/learnAbou...p.asp?catId=70

The cinch-clamps are steel and generally used in trailers and double-wide
type prefab homes. That's not what I use and I've been told to stay away
from them by the plumbing supply places.

Crimp rings are sold copper and will last as long as anything else, for
all practical purposes. Pex crimp rings allow for rotation of the tubing
around the fitting but will not leak.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:57:53 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 2:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
I just bought what Home Depot had (Sharkbite). They did go
together just as advertised, and they are indeed leak proof, so no complaint
on that end. But - they don't make a rigid run. The line in and the line
out have quite a bit of play in them so the entire run is somewhat floppy.
Probably will never leak, but it will always be floppy unless you put in
some additional hangers. For a quick fix - I use them. For something more
permanant - I sweat a joint.


What do you guys think about this apparatus:

http://www.garrettwade.com/copper-pi...ol/p/04D01.02/

I'm reasonably adept at sweating joints, but there have been some times when
this thing would have come in handy, assuming it works as advertised.


Looks like a real handy tool - and just as a matter of interest -
remember that thread a few months ago about heating the pipe or the
fitting??? Notice the tool clamps to the PIPE, NOT the fitting???

I wonder why???
Because it WORKS.

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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:25:25 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too
expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four
houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)

The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
.. .
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their
value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or
are yours different from what I see around here?


My rings are heavy copper with a black oxide coating. If the rings you
see are bright and shiny then they're stainless steel.

That's all I've ever seen up here.The shiny silver coloured ones.
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wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:57:53 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 2:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
I just bought what Home Depot had (Sharkbite). They did go
together just as advertised, and they are indeed leak proof, so no
complaint on that end. But - they don't make a rigid run. The
line in and the line out have quite a bit of play in them so the
entire run is somewhat floppy. Probably will never leak, but it
will always be floppy unless you put in some additional hangers.
For a quick fix - I use them. For something more permanant - I
sweat a joint.


What do you guys think about this apparatus:

http://www.garrettwade.com/copper-pi...ol/p/04D01.02/

I'm reasonably adept at sweating joints, but there have been some
times when this thing would have come in handy, assuming it works as
advertised.


Looks like a real handy tool - and just as a matter of interest -
remember that thread a few months ago about heating the pipe or the
fitting??? Notice the tool clamps to the PIPE, NOT the fitting???

I wonder why???
Because it WORKS.


It does look like a nifty tool. I wouldn't buy one for the amount of
sweating I do, but it does look cool. As for what to heat - In my opinon it
doesn't matter - the heat will transfer to both parts.

--

-Mike-





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On 4/13/2012 8:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:18:10 -0500, wrote:

On 4/13/2012 2:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where
else would you run the plumbing? ;~)

That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of
a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative
that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home
without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't
put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting
cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just
can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas!


I'll give you a dime for every basement in the Texas if you'll give me a
penny for everyone in the "frost belt".

They're not unheard of, but rarer than unicorn poop on a roof.

Occasionally someone (usually from the NE) with more money than sense,
will get a code variance at huge cost and risk and actually build one
... in the trade we call them what they will soon be ... "indoor
swimming pools".

Unless the builder's name is Noah.
What New Orleans needs is a statute requiring ferrocrete (hull)
basements in ALL new construction homes. Then next time the flood
barriers are breached they'll all turn into yachts or houseboats.


The French Quarter, where the original New Orleans was built, has
survived 300 years quite nicely. Apparently there weren't as many fools
in the early 1700's to sell swamp land to ... besides, it's about 300
miles from Texas.

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In article ,
says...

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:25:25 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too
expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four
houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)

The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
.. .
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their
value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or
are yours different from what I see around here?


My rings are heavy copper with a black oxide coating. If the rings you
see are bright and shiny then they're stainless steel.

That's all I've ever seen up here.The shiny silver coloured ones.


Might be that the approvals are different in Canada. Here both are
available, as well as Shark Bites.

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On 4/13/2012 8:21 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:53:30 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 1:20 PM,
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM,
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1
Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.

I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had
one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze
either.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold.
However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs)



But should you develop a leak at any fixture or pipe leading to that
fixture can you isolate that feed and leave every thing else on?

I can isolate my hot, hard cold, and soft cold water separately en
mass, and I can shut off any outlet separately to replace or service
the faucet or valve. All service valves have been replaced with ball
valves, so I don't run into seized shutoff valves.

So I guess the short answer is yes.



I asked , can you isolate a fixture should that fixture "or the pipe
leading to that fixture", develop a leak. Most any one can do what you
just described. I can turn off the water at the fixture or the manifold
to isolate that entire run. I basically have a supply manifold with 28
separate valves and a valve at the end of each of those runs.

BTY simply using a water softener helps greatly in preventing a valve
from seizing.

But my new home PEX plumbing came with all ball valves.
In my older home the valve that I shut off the most were the water
closet/toilet valves. They were difficult to turn after 5~10 years but
about 8 years ago we installed a water softener and the next time I
turned off any of the supply valves any where in the house they turned
like they were brand new. This did not happen immediately but
eventually all of the ones that I worked on operated freely.





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On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:42:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
They were difficult to turn after 5~10 years but
about 8 years ago we installed a water softener and the next time I
turned off any of the supply valves any where in the house they turned
like they were brand new. This did not happen immediately but
eventually all of the ones that I worked on operated freely.


Hard water causes all sorts of problems. Early on, I'd have figured
your wife would have had trouble with dishes and clothes washing and
gotten you to do something about it.

Of course, those things may well be part of your duties and you just
put off the hard/soft water fix for a number of years.


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Default Shear strength of screws

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:42:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 8:21 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:53:30 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 1:20 PM,
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM,
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1
Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.

I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had
one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze
either.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold.
However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs)


But should you develop a leak at any fixture or pipe leading to that
fixture can you isolate that feed and leave every thing else on?

I can isolate my hot, hard cold, and soft cold water separately en
mass, and I can shut off any outlet separately to replace or service
the faucet or valve. All service valves have been replaced with ball
valves, so I don't run into seized shutoff valves.

So I guess the short answer is yes.



I asked , can you isolate a fixture should that fixture "or the pipe
leading to that fixture", develop a leak. Most any one can do what you
just described. I can turn off the water at the fixture or the manifold
to isolate that entire run. I basically have a supply manifold with 28
separate valves and a valve at the end of each of those runs.


28? What do you have, a bloody motel???? There is a total of 16 water
outlets in my whole house. If I shut off the soft water I affect 5 of
them. If I shut off the hot water I affect 5. If I shut off all soft
water I affect 8. I can live with any one of those situations untill
I can repair whatever has gone wrong, assuming it is more than just
repairing a faucet, which I can isolate totally.

BTY simply using a water softener helps greatly in preventing a valve
from seizing.


I use a water softener, but I don't soften drinking water, toylet
flush, or outside faucet.

But my new home PEX plumbing came with all ball valves.
In my older home the valve that I shut off the most were the water
closet/toilet valves. They were difficult to turn after 5~10 years but
about 8 years ago we installed a water softener and the next time I
turned off any of the supply valves any where in the house they turned
like they were brand new. This did not happen immediately but
eventually all of the ones that I worked on operated freely.


Once a valve is seized by the hard water up here, NOTHING is going to
get it moving again - and even soft water shutoff valves can (and do)
go wonky after a while - unless they are ball valves.





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Default Shear strength of screws

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:49:21 -0400, Dave wrote:

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:42:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
They were difficult to turn after 5~10 years but
about 8 years ago we installed a water softener and the next time I
turned off any of the supply valves any where in the house they turned
like they were brand new. This did not happen immediately but
eventually all of the ones that I worked on operated freely.


Hard water causes all sorts of problems. Early on, I'd have figured
your wife would have had trouble with dishes and clothes washing and
gotten you to do something about it.

Of course, those things may well be part of your duties and you just
put off the hard/soft water fix for a number of years.

Some places the water is naturally soft - and others the hard water
is hard but not agressive. Then there's the water I grew up with -
hard as a stone and as agressive as battery acid.
  #108   Report Post  
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Posts: 12,155
Default Shear strength of screws

On 4/14/2012 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:42:08 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 8:21 PM,
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:53:30 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 1:20 PM,
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM,
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1
Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.

I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had
one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze
either.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold.
However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs)


But should you develop a leak at any fixture or pipe leading to that
fixture can you isolate that feed and leave every thing else on?
I can isolate my hot, hard cold, and soft cold water separately en
mass, and I can shut off any outlet separately to replace or service
the faucet or valve. All service valves have been replaced with ball
valves, so I don't run into seized shutoff valves.

So I guess the short answer is yes.



I asked , can you isolate a fixture should that fixture "or the pipe
leading to that fixture", develop a leak. Most any one can do what you
just described. I can turn off the water at the fixture or the manifold
to isolate that entire run. I basically have a supply manifold with 28
separate valves and a valve at the end of each of those runs.


28? What do you have, a bloody motel???? There is a total of 16 water
outlets in my whole house. If I shut off the soft water I affect 5 of
them. If I shut off the hot water I affect 5. If I shut off all soft
water I affect 8. I can live with any one of those situations untill
I can repair whatever has gone wrong, assuming it is more than just
repairing a faucet, which I can isolate totally.


LOL, no hotel.

I have 4 in the kitchen, 2-Sink, 1-DW, 1- Frig
3 for exterior hose bibs
10, 5 for each of the 2 guest baths
2 for the laundry
9 for the master bath

Then there is the additional ball valve at the end of each or those runs
except for the tub, shower, and outside hose bibs.

My water softener filters all water or not except for 1 extra hose bib
before the softener which I never use.


BTY simply using a water softener helps greatly in preventing a valve
from seizing.


I use a water softener, but I don't soften drinking water, toylet
flush, or outside faucet.

But my new home PEX plumbing came with all ball valves.
In my older home the valve that I shut off the most were the water
closet/toilet valves. They were difficult to turn after 5~10 years but
about 8 years ago we installed a water softener and the next time I
turned off any of the supply valves any where in the house they turned
like they were brand new. This did not happen immediately but
eventually all of the ones that I worked on operated freely.


Once a valve is seized by the hard water up here, NOTHING is going to
get it moving again - and even soft water shutoff valves can (and do)
go wonky after a while - unless they are ball valves.


Wow shall we say hard water? :~) I will admit that my valves took 3~5
years before the build up eroded and freed them.



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Default Shear strength of screws

Lead free solder doesn't flow anyway. It doesn't matter what you heat.

---------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
It does look like a nifty tool. I wouldn't buy one for the amount of
sweating I do, but it does look cool. As for what to heat - In my
opinon it
doesn't matter - the heat will transfer to both parts.

------------
wrote:
Looks like a real handy tool - and just as a matter of interest -
remember that thread a few months ago about heating the pipe or the
fitting??? Notice the tool clamps to the PIPE, NOT the fitting???

I wonder why???
Because it WORKS.





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Posts: 569
Default Shear strength of screws

The pinch rings I use are Stainless Steel... not plated. They are
strong and do not rust.

------------
"-MIKE-" wrote in message ...
The cinch-clamps are steel and generally used in trailers and
double-wide
type prefab homes. That's not what I use and I've been told to stay
away
from them by the plumbing supply places.

Crimp rings are sold copper and will last as long as anything else, for
all practical purposes. Pex crimp rings allow for rotation of the
tubing
around the fitting but will not leak.


---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

  #112   Report Post  
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Default Shear strength of screws

Stainless steel pinch ring for in-house plumbing.Very reliable and once
pinched and removed the PEX is very difficult to remove from the
fitting anyway, without splitting with a blade.

They are just different manufacturer's systems.

-------------
"Peter Bennett" wrote in message
news.com...
There are two types of "permanent" PEX fasteners.

The one preferred for house plumbing is a copper ring that requires a
fairly expensive tool to compress the ring smoothly around the pipe.

The other, apparently preferred for lawn sprinkler systems, uses a
stainless ring with an "ear" which is squeezed by a less expensive
crimping tool - it leaves the crimped "ear" sticking out from the
ring.

(Perhaps the copper ring is the preferred technique, but won't stand
up to burial, so the stainless crimp is accepted for that - just my
guess...)


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On 4/17/2012 7:44 AM, m II wrote:
Lead free solder doesn't flow anyway. It doesn't matter what you heat.

---------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message ...
It does look like a nifty tool. I wouldn't buy one for the amount of
sweating I do, but it does look cool. As for what to heat - In my opinon it
doesn't matter - the heat will transfer to both parts.

------------
wrote:
Looks like a real handy tool - and just as a matter of interest -
remember that thread a few months ago about heating the pipe or the
fitting??? Notice the tool clamps to the PIPE, NOT the fitting???

I wonder why???
Because it WORKS.


That's what flux is for, ya top-posting flux-knuckle.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
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PEX would burst at those high temperatures with any pressure on it.

Soft plastic with boiling steam inside it? This is how solar hot water
systems work and if the fluids are not kept flowing the steam
explosions can be quite dramatic.


-------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Correct. Maybe it's a regional thing, but in the NE, we don't run
water
lines into the attic. The attic is supposed to be very cold in the
winter
and very hot in the summer. We keep our water lines located in the
more
comfortable areas of the house.

-------------
wrote:
Water pipes in the ATTIC?? Now that's a bass ackwards way of doing
things - at least it would be up here. Water pipes in the attic WOULD
be likely to freeze. We don't heat our attics - at least not
intentionally.



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Default Shear strength of screws

I had that KW water eat a few of my copper pipes after 20 years.

----------
wrote in message news Some places the water is naturally soft - and others the hard water
is hard but not agressive. Then there's the water I grew up with -
hard as a stone and as agressive as battery acid.


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You obviously haven't soldered with it or you wouldn't think flux
substitutes for real solder you trolling flux-sucker.

PEX wouldn't be so popular if it wasn't for lead-free sludge.

---------
"Steve Turner" wrote in message ...
That's what flux is for, ya top-posting flux-knuckle.

----------
On 4/17/2012 7:44 AM, m II wrote:
Lead free solder doesn't flow anyway. It doesn't matter what you
heat.

---------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
It does look like a nifty tool. I wouldn't buy one for the amount of
sweating I do, but it does look cool. As for what to heat - In my
opinon it
doesn't matter - the heat will transfer to both parts.

------------
wrote:
Looks like a real handy tool - and just as a matter of interest -
remember that thread a few months ago about heating the pipe or the
fitting??? Notice the tool clamps to the PIPE, NOT the fitting???

I wonder why???
Because it WORKS.



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Default Shear strength of screws

On 4/17/2012 8:16 AM, m II wrote:
You obviously haven't soldered with it or you wouldn't think flux substitutes
for real solder you trolling flux-sucker.

PEX wouldn't be so popular if it wasn't for lead-free sludge.

---------
"Steve Turner" wrote in message ...
That's what flux is for, ya top-posting flux-knuckle.

----------
On 4/17/2012 7:44 AM, m II wrote:
Lead free solder doesn't flow anyway. It doesn't matter what you heat.

---------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message ...
It does look like a nifty tool. I wouldn't buy one for the amount of
sweating I do, but it does look cool. As for what to heat - In my opinon it
doesn't matter - the heat will transfer to both parts.

------------
wrote:
Looks like a real handy tool - and just as a matter of interest -
remember that thread a few months ago about heating the pipe or the
fitting??? Notice the tool clamps to the PIPE, NOT the fitting???

I wonder why???
Because it WORKS.


Yes I HAVE, many times. It DOES flow, with the proper flux and the right
amount of heat. Granted, lead-based solder is much easier to use (for less
capable morons such as yourself), but I'm certainly not going to use it on MY
copper pipes through which my drinking water passes. Sounds like you have no
about qualms doing so, which could explain a lot about your behavior.

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
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Yeah, yeah "the right amount of heat"... blah, blah except none of
your ilk that have made this admission of ignorance have managed to
create many complete houses full of non-leak joints, reliably, with
it, so the world gave up waiting and went to PEX installations after
putting out dozens of attempts to resolve the lack of flow problems.

Maybe better insults would make your story more credible?


------------
"Steve Turner" wrote in message ...
Yes I HAVE, many times. It DOES flow, with the proper flux and the
right
amount of heat. Granted, lead-based solder is much easier to use (for
less
capable morons such as yourself), but I'm certainly not going to use it
on MY
copper pipes through which my drinking water passes. Sounds like you
have no
about qualms doing so, which could explain a lot about your behavior.

-----------------
On 4/17/2012 8:16 AM, m II wrote:
You obviously haven't soldered with it or you wouldn't think flux
substitutes
for real solder you trolling flux-sucker.

PEX wouldn't be so popular if it wasn't for lead-free sludge.

---------
"Steve Turner" wrote in message ...
That's what flux is for, ya top-posting flux-knuckle.

----------
On 4/17/2012 7:44 AM, m II wrote:
Lead free solder doesn't flow anyway. It doesn't matter what you
heat.

---------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
It does look like a nifty tool. I wouldn't buy one for the amount of
sweating I do, but it does look cool. As for what to heat - In my
opinon it
doesn't matter - the heat will transfer to both parts.

------------
wrote:
Looks like a real handy tool - and just as a matter of interest -
remember that thread a few months ago about heating the pipe or the
fitting??? Notice the tool clamps to the PIPE, NOT the fitting???

I wonder why???
Because it WORKS.


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Posts: 5,721
Default Shear strength of screws

On 4/17/12 3:35 PM, m II wrote:
Yeah, yeah "the right amount of heat"... blah, blah except none of your
ilk that have made this admission of ignorance have managed to create
many complete houses full of non-leak joints, reliably, with it, so the
world gave up waiting and went to PEX installations after putting out
dozens of attempts to resolve the lack of flow problems.

Maybe better insults would make your story more credible?


"Better to remain silent and considered a fool than to open ones mouth
and remove all doubt."

You should heed those words.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

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On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 16:35:40 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Yeah, yeah "the right amount of heat"... blah, blah except none of
your ilk that have made this admission of ignorance have managed to
create many complete houses full of non-leak joints, reliably, with
it, so the world gave up waiting and went to PEX installations after
putting out dozens of attempts to resolve the lack of flow problems.

Maybe better insults would make your story more credible?

No, you just need CHINESE lead free solder.
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