HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

No comparison. You're trying to start an argument, and, frankly, it isn't
worth raising my blood pressure :-)
"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

If you genuinely can't tell the difference, then by all means save the
money and buy the cheap stuff.

If you want an easy warranty Grizzly, if you want a boat anchor HF.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

(Hylourgos) wrote in
om:

snip


Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

A lot of tools, including those of the 'major' manufacturers, look the
same because:
a. it's the sensible way to make them
b. form follows function
c. they are coming from the same factory in China.

If c., then the difference is in the specs given to the Chinese factory
and the follow up on quality control by the owners of the brand going on
the tool. This is particularly true for motors, batteries, and moving
parts.

LD


Curious,
H

Troll.

"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

IMHO. China made items can be as good if not better than counterparts made
anywhere else. Problems can occur from things constructed from material made
from scrap, melted down obsolete military items I suppose. Most often cast
metal components. Otherwise their technology is state of the art. Their
quality steel can be as good as it gets. Patents have little or no meaning
in China. So they copy the best. They build their own quality production
machines. I received a brochure from an electronic small test equipment
manufacture in China and in the center was 'Fluke' models they produce. Same
technology as their in house brand. Big big difference was price.

If you need high production precision equipment, Rely upon a reputable
dealer that will stand behind what they sell. If you are a hobbyist. You can
buy the HF items for less than 1/3 of the cost. Use some judgment as to the
most for the money. Stay away from the under $1.00 items. g
--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

I'm guessing many of the things come from the identical factory.
However that doesn't mean the items are of identical quality. It's my
feeling (I have no facts to back it up by the way) that manufacturer A
builds an item and inspects it with a scale of tolerences in mind.
Companies pay according to what set of tolerances are met. I think in
general Grizzly uses a higher set of tolerances than HF does.

And I have bought from both companies and have had some good and bad
experiences with both. However, Grizzly seems to be better overall.


On 29 May 2004 16:09:22 -0700, (Hylourgos) wrote:

HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

Jim K wrote:

I'm guessing many of the things come from the identical factory.
However that doesn't mean the items are of identical quality. It's my
feeling (I have no facts to back it up by the way) that manufacturer A
builds an item and inspects it with a scale of tolerences in mind.
Companies pay according to what set of tolerances are met. I think in
general Grizzly uses a higher set of tolerances than HF does.

A quote from Grizzly's web site:

"We also have offices in Taiwan and China with our own quality control
engineers that oversee the production of our equipment."

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Not much to say: you're wrong.

"Steven Bliss" wrote in message ...
No comparison. You're trying to start an argument, and, frankly, it isn't
worth raising my blood pressure :-)
"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

Very sensible, Jim. On some of the more common HF items that get
fairly good reviews here on the wreck (6" jointer, 14" bandsaw, DC,
and a few others) I'm wondering if there is really much difference
between what they offer and what Grizzly offers.

In comparing two of those machines, I don't see enough difference to
justify the price difference. Since you own machines from both, maybe
you can help me out here. What's your opinion on these?:

***14" Bandsaws:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=32208
[regularly on sale for $218, free shipping, plenty of stores for
pickup]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G1019
[at $378, with s/h, what makes it worth $160 more?]

***6" jointers:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=30289
[regularly on sale for $180, free shipping, plenty of stores for
pickup]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1182HW
[$383 with s/h. Again, is it really worth $200 more?]

I have nothing against Grizzly, but it seems to me that all you get,
on some machines, is the assurance of better quality control than HF,
but for about double the price. My feeling is that I can go to any HF
store and be my own QC specialist. Putting together a jointer or a
bandsaw is just not that hard, even with bad instructions.

[Again, I feel the need to inject the apples/oranges metaphor. I would
not buy a HF CMS or grinder for any amount of money, even though some
on the wreck are happy with them]. It just seems common sense which
machines at HF are worth comparing to Grizzly and which aren't. For
the ones that are, I'm trying to understand if they are the same
machines, essentially, and the markup is owing to Grizzly's QC, or if
they are really different machines.

Cheers,
H


Jim K wrote in message . ..
I'm guessing many of the things come from the identical factory.
However that doesn't mean the items are of identical quality. It's my
feeling (I have no facts to back it up by the way) that manufacturer A
builds an item and inspects it with a scale of tolerences in mind.
Companies pay according to what set of tolerances are met. I think in
general Grizzly uses a higher set of tolerances than HF does.

And I have bought from both companies and have had some good and bad
experiences with both. However, Grizzly seems to be better overall.


On 29 May 2004 16:09:22 -0700, (Hylourgos) wrote:

HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

Hmm...yes, but if that were true, then you're what, a nibbler?

"Brian" wrote in message ...
Troll.

"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

(Hylourgos) wrote in
om:

snip


[Again, I feel the need to inject the apples/oranges metaphor. I would
not buy a HF CMS or grinder for any amount of money, even though some
on the wreck are happy with them]. It just seems common sense which
machines at HF are worth comparing to Grizzly and which aren't. For
the ones that are, I'm trying to understand if they are the same
machines, essentially, and the markup is owing to Grizzly's QC, or if
they are really different machines.

It's not only QC, but the specs laid down by Grizzly vs HF. Flattness of
tables, motor windings, thickness of case materials, etc. Both products
can be built in the same factory, by the same workers, look very similar,
but be very different in terms of fit and finish, warranty, and ability
to stand up under heavy use. The Chinese have been doing this for years.


Cheers,
H
snip

"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
Very sensible, Jim. On some of the more common HF items that get
fairly good reviews here on the wreck (6" jointer, 14" bandsaw, DC,
and a few others) I'm wondering if there is really much difference
between what they offer and what Grizzly offers.

In comparing two of those machines, I don't see enough difference to
justify the price difference. Since you own machines from both, maybe
you can help me out here. What's your opinion on these?:

***14" Bandsaws:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=32208
[regularly on sale for $218, free shipping, plenty of stores for
pickup]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G1019
[at $378, with s/h, what makes it worth $160 more?]

***6" jointers:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=30289
[regularly on sale for $180, free shipping, plenty of stores for
pickup]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1182HW
[$383 with s/h. Again, is it really worth $200 more?]

[snip]

OK, I compared the pictures and specs. It is hard to tell the quality of
the bandsaws from the photos. I can see a few things where the Grizzly is
better (hinged wheel covers, etc.), but it is really hard to tell the
quality of the motor, guides and wheels from the picture on the web page.
This is where I have to rely on reviews on the rec.

On the jointers, the Grizzly appears to have a better fence system. The HF
model looks like an end mounted fence and the grizzly's is center mounted.
The Grizzly's stand appears more sturdy. Again, since I don't have either
of those particluar models, I can only rely on rec experience.

On either machine, the quality of the parts I mentioned (wheels, guides,
motor on the bandsaw and fence and motor on the jointer) can be the
difference between a usable tool and a totally unusable one. Would need to
do a goggle search to really decide.

Montyhp

OK, but the obverse is just as true: if you can't tell (transitive
verb here) the difference, then by all means spend more money to buy
the same stuff. You'll definitely feel superior.

H

Wolf Lahti wrote in message ...
If you genuinely can't tell the difference, then by all means save the
money and buy the cheap stuff.

Thanks Lobby and Noel.

I guess it's impossible to compare fairly without knowing the specific
data (about motors, bearings etc.) you mention. So far, at least on
those two machines, I can't tell any appreciable difference.

H.


"Noel Montgomery" wrote in message ...
"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
Very sensible, Jim. On some of the more common HF items that get
fairly good reviews here on the wreck (6" jointer, 14" bandsaw, DC,
and a few others) I'm wondering if there is really much difference
between what they offer and what Grizzly offers.

In comparing two of those machines, I don't see enough difference to
justify the price difference. Since you own machines from both, maybe
you can help me out here. What's your opinion on these?:

***14" Bandsaws:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=32208
[regularly on sale for $218, free shipping, plenty of stores for
pickup]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G1019
[at $378, with s/h, what makes it worth $160 more?]

***6" jointers:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=30289
[regularly on sale for $180, free shipping, plenty of stores for
pickup]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1182HW
[$383 with s/h. Again, is it really worth $200 more?]

[snip]

OK, I compared the pictures and specs. It is hard to tell the quality of
the bandsaws from the photos. I can see a few things where the Grizzly is
better (hinged wheel covers, etc.), but it is really hard to tell the
quality of the motor, guides and wheels from the picture on the web page.
This is where I have to rely on reviews on the rec.

On the jointers, the Grizzly appears to have a better fence system. The HF
model looks like an end mounted fence and the grizzly's is center mounted.
The Grizzly's stand appears more sturdy. Again, since I don't have either
of those particluar models, I can only rely on rec experience.

On either machine, the quality of the parts I mentioned (wheels, guides,
motor on the bandsaw and fence and motor on the jointer) can be the
difference between a usable tool and a totally unusable one. Would need to
do a goggle search to really decide.

Montyhp

(Hylourgos) wrote in
om:

Thanks Lobby and Noel.

I guess it's impossible to compare fairly without knowing the specific
data (about motors, bearings etc.) you mention. So far, at least on
those two machines, I can't tell any appreciable difference.

H.

You're welcome.

I'd also note that it's pretty tough to do a comparison based on comments
from the newsgroups, unless you know the individual doing the commenting.
Someone who thinks the HF bandsaw is great may only use it a few times a
year. Or someone who thinks the Grizzly saw is bad may be trying to turn
out 100,000 widgets a year. I kinda boil down opinions garnered here with
those in the magazine reviews.

Then I typically buy what I was planning to buy all along. )

Harbor Freight in my opinion is more cheaply made. The Grizzley stuff is of
a higher order. I prefered the quality of the Grizzley bandsaw over Delta.
I first encountered the Grizz at a woodworking expo in Atlanta. I was
impressed.
I wouldn't use it if I was running a production shop, but in a Job shop they
do fine.



"Hylourgos" wrote in message
m...
Hmm...yes, but if that were true, then you're what, a nibbler?

"Brian" wrote in message
...
Troll.

"Hylourgos" wrote in message
om...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

They may well be made in the same factory. However, I recall reading an
article in either FHB or FWW a few years ago that pointed out that many
times the difference between tools made in a factory for Company A and
for Company B was the presence of the procuring company's monitors to
make sure that the paid for quality was delivered. Apparently the
culture and ethics of many oriental manufacturers is that if they can
get away with cutting corners they will.

RB

John wrote:
Harbor Freight in my opinion is more cheaply made. The Grizzley stuff is of
a higher order. I prefered the quality of the Grizzley bandsaw over Delta.
I first encountered the Grizz at a woodworking expo in Atlanta. I was
impressed.
I wouldn't use it if I was running a production shop, but in a Job shop they
do fine.



"Hylourgos" wrote in message
m...

Hmm...yes, but if that were true, then you're what, a nibbler?

"Brian" wrote in message

...

Troll.

"Hylourgos" wrote in message
e.com...

HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

RB wrote:


Apparently the
culture and ethics of many oriental manufacturers is that if they can
get away with cutting corners they will.

Aren't we glad no western manufacturers would do that? ;-)
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.

Remember working in the stamping plant years back, where we could accept a
certain number of defects for a Mercury, more for a Ford. Steel suitable
for neither was shipped cross-town to - Cadillac....

"RB" wrote in message
...
They may well be made in the same factory. However, I recall reading an
article in either FHB or FWW a few years ago that pointed out that many
times the difference between tools made in a factory for Company A and
for Company B was the presence of the procuring company's monitors to
make sure that the paid for quality was delivered. Apparently the
culture and ethics of many oriental manufacturers is that if they can
get away with cutting corners they will.

Wow! what a statement! just because they look alike does not
necessarily mean they are the same. World of diffrence in quality
between HF and Grizzly also the instruction manuals and support are
day and nite betwen the 2.

(Hylourgos) wrote in message . com...
HF is a common whipping boy here on the Wreck, whereas Grizzly is
often and highly recommended. I note differences in their overall
structure and offerings. But for similar merchandise (bandsaws,
jigsaws, planers, drill presses, etc.), I see only the slightest
margin of difference in fit and finish--a margin of difference that is
negligible for those who tinker with their WW toys during set up
before they ever use them.

So what gives? Is it that Grizzly is predominantly WWing and HF not?
That HF offers more of the substandard line of tools than Grizzly?
That HF is a behemoth merchandiser, in comparison? Or is it simply
that Green looks nicer than Orange?

Speaking of Orange, remember, I'm only talking of the comparable items
(oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges) both sell that seem
identical. I suspect a lot of their tools are made in the same
location and have a similar quality finish.

Curious,
H

Thanks to everyone who contributed--even those who suspect me of being
a troll....

I still haven't seen any good evidence *for a few machines* that the
price difference would make a significant enough difference (machines
like the bandsaw and 6" jointer). But that's highly subjective, and I
don't mind messing with machine setup and modification.

OTOH, the overwhelming judgment of respondents, most of whom have
experience with both companies, I gather, have very good things to say
about Grizzly.

I shall therefore attune my purchasing antennae to Grizzly in the
future.

Thanks for weighing in,
H