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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.

So now we're wanting to replace the 20-year-old carpet in the upstairs
with some kind of wood floor, and are not sure which way to go.

The other complication, is that we need to live in these rooms while
we're putting in new floors - we'll move all the furniture out of the
unused bedroom, redo its floor, move my daughter into that bedroom,
redo her floor, etc. so we whatever we use, it needs to be
prefinished.

There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches, which pushes us towards solid
wood, but then with solid wood you can't install a floating floor, so
I'm worried we would get the gap problem again. And then again, I'm
wondering if it's maybe the offgassing from the prefinish that gives
us the headache, in which case for the headache it wouldn't matter if
we chose solid vs. engineered vs. laminate.

Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?

Thanks,
Chris
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 16, 7:45*pm, Chris Shearer Cooper
wrote:
I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.

So now we're wanting to replace the 20-year-old carpet in the upstairs
with some kind of wood floor, and are not sure which way to go.

The other complication, is that we need to live in these rooms while
we're putting in new floors - we'll move all the furniture out of the
unused bedroom, redo its floor, move my daughter into that bedroom,
redo her floor, etc. so we whatever we use, it needs to be
prefinished.

There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches, which pushes us towards solid
wood, but then with solid wood you can't install a floating floor, so
I'm worried we would get the gap problem again. *And then again, I'm
wondering if it's maybe the offgassing from the prefinish that gives
us the headache, in which case for the headache it wouldn't matter if
we chose solid vs. engineered vs. laminate.

Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?

Thanks,
Chris


If a wood floor is installed without opening up packages and allow to
aclimatize to the lower humidity of your home this can happen, its not
a bamboo problem its a installer problem, a real pro has a moisture
meter handy. For all you know the floor was stored in a very humid
place before you got it, it can take weeks to aclimatize wood to a
house before install. Did a store install it that sold it to you, then
there was a warranty, id call the manufacturer and ask.
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

"Chris Shearer Cooper" wrote in message
...

I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch. . . .
There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches


Both topics viz.
-- expansion/contraction of wood flooring with changing humidity,
-- health effects of varnishes, manufactured flooring, etc.
are research topics at the US National Bureau of Standards
(building research division, or whatever it is called.) I.e. you
can get expert advice there, probably free (because US
taxpayers paid for it in the first place.) You may find no
wood is wholly free from either effect.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)


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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On 2/16/2010 10:01 PM, ransley wrote:

If a wood floor is installed without opening up packages and allow to
aclimatize to the lower humidity of your home this can happen, its not
a bamboo problem its a installer problem, a real pro has a moisture
meter handy. For all you know the floor was stored in a very humid
place before you got it, it can take weeks to aclimatize wood to a
house before install. Did a store install it that sold it to you, then
there was a warranty, id call the manufacturer and ask.


Well, you start off on the wrong foot ... bamboo is NOT wood, it is a
_grass_.

And the OP's is most definitely a "bamboo problem" (related to
"climate"), and more than likely NOT an installation problem.

Bamboo is notorious for having wildly varying degrees of moisture
content, some of which has not been observed to change for months no
matter how long the acclimation period ... unless in an extremely dry
client, like where the OP indicates his is installed.

With regard to moisture meters ... once again, bamboo is not wood, and
moisture meters are calibrated to use on WOOD, and furthermore, specific
species of wood.

AAMOF, I can personally attest that as of the summer of 09 there were no
moisture meters currently on the retail market calibrated to accurately
and consistently determine the actual moisture content of bamboo
flooring .. which was the last time I was asked to have on installed.

Unless there have been very recent changes, the only way to approximate
a usable MC reading of bamboo is by _comparison_ with a known sample,
using the same meter, thus your "real pro" is basically at the same loss
to give an accurate MC for installation as any DIY'er without a moisture
meter would be.

Most important thing when contemplating using bamboo flooring is the
quality of the product. This is the single most important factor on
whether you will have a successful installation ...and, as with all the
Pacific Rim shoe merchants and ribbon clerks looking to make a buck
these days, that is a most difficult thing to do with this particular
_grass_ flooring product.

The second is the climate of the locale of the intended installation.

In short, bamboo flooring, despite what the retailers will try to tell
you, seems to be more suitable when building for what are classified in
the trade as "Hot, Humid, Climates", and can be problematic, as the OP
has discovered, when building in drier climates.

IOW, the single biggest factors in the success of the installation in
drier climates is the QUALITY of the product ... a hit and miss
proposition at best in this day and age, and one reason why, as a
builder, even then I generally discourage my clients from using the stuff.

IME, YMMV, FWIW, etc. ....

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 17, 8:33*am, Swingman wrote:
On 2/16/2010 10:01 PM, ransley wrote:

If a wood floor is installed without opening up packages and allow to
aclimatize to the lower humidity of your home this can happen, its not
a bamboo problem its a installer problem, a real pro has a moisture
meter handy. For all you know the floor was stored in a very humid
place before you got it, it can take weeks to aclimatize wood to a
house before install. Did a store install it that sold it to you, then
there was a warranty, id call the manufacturer and ask.


Well, you start off on the wrong foot ... bamboo is NOT wood, it is a
_grass_.

And the OP's is most definitely a "bamboo problem" (related to
"climate"), and more than likely NOT an installation problem.

Bamboo is notorious for having wildly varying degrees of moisture
content, some of which has not been observed to change for months no
matter how long the acclimation period ... unless in an extremely dry
client, like where the OP indicates his is installed.

With regard to moisture meters ... once again, bamboo is not wood, and
moisture meters are calibrated to use on WOOD, and furthermore, specific
species of wood.

AAMOF, I can personally attest that as of the summer of 09 there were no
moisture meters currently on the retail market calibrated to accurately
and consistently determine the actual moisture content of bamboo
flooring .. which was the last time I was asked to have on installed.

Unless there have been very recent changes, the only way to approximate
a usable MC reading of bamboo is by _comparison_ with a known sample,
using the same meter, thus your "real pro" is basically at the same loss
to give an accurate MC for installation as any DIY'er without a moisture
meter would be.

Most important thing when contemplating using bamboo flooring is the
quality of the product. This is the single most important factor on
whether you will have a successful installation ...and, as with all the
Pacific Rim shoe merchants and ribbon clerks looking to make a buck
these days, that is a most difficult thing to do with this particular
_grass_ flooring product.

The second is the climate of the locale of the intended installation.

In short, bamboo flooring, despite what the retailers will try to tell
you, seems to be more suitable when building for what are classified in
the trade as "Hot, Humid, Climates", and can be problematic, as the OP
has discovered, when building in drier climates.

IOW, the single biggest factors in the success of the installation in
drier climates is the QUALITY of the product ... a hit and miss
proposition at best in this day and age, and one reason why, as a
builder, even then I generally discourage my clients from using the stuff..

IME, YMMV, FWIW, etc. ....

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)


Moisture meters measure % of moisture they are not only "calibrated to
wood" The one I use Delmhorst, has scales on the screen to use it for
concrete plaster or wood. In construction you have to Know when
concrete, plaster, drywall, wood are too wet to use and too wet to
paint. The floor guys I have used have them, it saves them from doing
bad jobs and redoing floors. Inspectors and roofers use them to
pinpoint problems, Its one tool that has saved me alot of money over
the years from bogus complaints and knowing a products moisture before
working with it, like PT, everybody wants it stained now when its new,
and it works on Bamboo.


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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On 2/17/2010 8:59 AM, ransley wrote:
On Feb 17, 8:33 am, wrote:


With regard to moisture meters ... once again, bamboo is not wood, and
moisture meters are calibrated to use on WOOD, and furthermore, specific
species of wood.



Moisture meters measure % of moisture they are not only "calibrated to
wood" The one I use Delmhorst, has scales on the screen to use it for
concrete plaster or wood.


You're shooting yourself in the foot, Bubba ... show me were it is
calibrated for GRASS!



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

Chris Shearer Cooper wrote:
I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.

So now we're wanting to replace the 20-year-old carpet in the upstairs
with some kind of wood floor, and are not sure which way to go.

The other complication, is that we need to live in these rooms while
we're putting in new floors - we'll move all the furniture out of the
unused bedroom, redo its floor, move my daughter into that bedroom,
redo her floor, etc. so we whatever we use, it needs to be
prefinished.

There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches, which pushes us towards solid
wood, but then with solid wood you can't install a floating floor, so
I'm worried we would get the gap problem again. And then again, I'm
wondering if it's maybe the offgassing from the prefinish that gives
us the headache, in which case for the headache it wouldn't matter if
we chose solid vs. engineered vs. laminate.

Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?


I have no idea whether he is correct or not but I certainly prefer it. My
experience...

I laid solid maple in my wife's home office about 10-12 years ago. The
planks are about 2 1/2" wide. We live in central Florida...hot and very
humid in the summer, cool and much dryer - but not as dry as Colorado - in
the winter.

The planks were acclimatized in the house for several weeks. They were laid
in the summer and as tight to each other as I could get them. Most but not
all were tight to their neighbors; any gaps were minimal - maybe 1/64 - and
were due to planks not being perfectly straight. Gaps were filled with saw
dust and varnish before final sanding and finishing.

In the winter, most all planks are still tight to their neighbors. Those
that are not are 1/32 at the most. Oddly, the tight ones that had slight
filling push up that filling in the winter...not enough to be easily visible
but enough to feel with your finger. That pushing up may be year around,
don't know.

Winter or summer, the floor looks good and homogenous.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico



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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On 2/17/2010 9:08 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/17/2010 8:59 AM, ransley wrote:
On Feb 17, 8:33 am, wrote:


With regard to moisture meters ... once again, bamboo is not wood, and
moisture meters are calibrated to use on WOOD, and furthermore, specific
species of wood.



Moisture meters measure % of moisture they are not only "calibrated to
wood" The one I use Delmhorst, has scales on the screen to use it for
concrete plaster or wood.


You're shooting yourself in the foot, Bubba ... show me were it is
calibrated for GRASS!


Here you go, Bubba ... backs up everything I said about my experiences
as builder with bamboo flooring:

http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/har...oomoisture.htm

If you check around further you will find ample evidence that moisture
meters are notoriously inaccurate with bamboo flooring.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Feb 17, 8:33 am, Swingman wrote:
On 2/16/2010 10:01 PM, ransley wrote:

If a wood floor is installed without opening up packages and allow to
aclimatize to the lower humidity of your home this can happen, its not
a bamboo problem its a installer problem, a real pro has a moisture
meter handy. For all you know the floor was stored in a very humid
place before you got it, it can take weeks to aclimatize wood to a
house before install. Did a store install it that sold it to you, then
there was a warranty, id call the manufacturer and ask.


Well, you start off on the wrong foot ... bamboo is NOT wood, it is a
_grass_.

And the OP's is most definitely a "bamboo problem" (related to
"climate"), and more than likely NOT an installation problem.

Bamboo is notorious for having wildly varying degrees of moisture
content, some of which has not been observed to change for months no
matter how long the acclimation period ... unless in an extremely dry
client, like where the OP indicates his is installed.

With regard to moisture meters ... once again, bamboo is not wood, and
moisture meters are calibrated to use on WOOD, and furthermore, specific
species of wood.

AAMOF, I can personally attest that as of the summer of 09 there were no
moisture meters currently on the retail market calibrated to accurately
and consistently determine the actual moisture content of bamboo
flooring .. which was the last time I was asked to have on installed.

Unless there have been very recent changes, the only way to approximate
a usable MC reading of bamboo is by _comparison_ with a known sample,
using the same meter, thus your "real pro" is basically at the same loss
to give an accurate MC for installation as any DIY'er without a moisture
meter would be.

Most important thing when contemplating using bamboo flooring is the
quality of the product. This is the single most important factor on
whether you will have a successful installation ...and, as with all the
Pacific Rim shoe merchants and ribbon clerks looking to make a buck
these days, that is a most difficult thing to do with this particular
_grass_ flooring product.

The second is the climate of the locale of the intended installation.

In short, bamboo flooring, despite what the retailers will try to tell
you, seems to be more suitable when building for what are classified in
the trade as "Hot, Humid, Climates", and can be problematic, as the OP
has discovered, when building in drier climates.

IOW, the single biggest factors in the success of the installation in
drier climates is the QUALITY of the product ... a hit and miss
proposition at best in this day and age, and one reason why, as a
builder, even then I generally discourage my clients from using the stuff.

IME, YMMV, FWIW, etc. ....

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)


Moisture meters measure % of moisture they are not only "calibrated to
wood" The one I use Delmhorst, has scales on the screen to use it for
concrete plaster or wood. In construction you have to Know when
concrete, plaster, drywall, wood are too wet to use and too wet to
paint. The floor guys I have used have them, it saves them from doing
bad jobs and redoing floors. Inspectors and roofers use them to
pinpoint problems, Its one tool that has saved me alot of money over
the years from bogus complaints and knowing a products moisture before
working with it, like PT, everybody wants it stained now when its new,
and it works on Bamboo.


Swingman is right.

I use a Delmhorst RDM2, a high end meter but several years old, it does
not have a built in calibration for bamboo, here is a conversion table to go
from doug fir to bamboo flooring:

Doug Fir reading -Actual % M/C
6- 3
7- 3.5
8 -4
9 -4.5
10- 5
11 -6
12 -6.5
13 -7
14 -7.5
15 -8
16 -8.5
17- 9
18 -9.5
19 -10
20 -11
21 -11.5
22 -12
23 -12.5
24 -13
25 13.5
26 -14
27 -14.5
28 -15.5

The important point is the equilibrium moisture content,
at 72 degrees and 15% relative humidity the ECM is only
2.5%, any floor laid at a higher moisture content that this
will eventually shrink and leave cracks.

It may take a year for hardwood flooring to reach ECM,
no one can wait a year to lay their floor, acclimating the
flooring to the house for a couple of days or a week may
help a little but is for the most part worthless.
Bamboo isn't hardwood and I have found no information
on the drying rate, it being a closed cell glued up product
I suspect Swing is right about it not drying out at any
timely speed.

There is a handy ECM calculator he

http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html

Most quality hardwood flooring is dried to 7-8% MC
and when laid will swell slightly in most home environments
making a nice tight floor that doesn't generally leave
much gap even in dry periods.

Most wood shrinks and swells the most between
12% and 25% MC, with smaller changes between
0% and 12%. I have no idea about the shrinkage rate
of bamboo.

I think people expect consistent perfection from
wood/bamboo/cork/name your favorite cellulose
based floor, from products that cannot deliver it.
If you want wood/bamboo floors you kinda have to
accept their builtin characteristics.

basilisk



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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 17, 9:08*am, Swingman wrote:
On 2/17/2010 8:59 AM, ransley wrote:

On Feb 17, 8:33 am, *wrote:
With regard to moisture meters ... once again, bamboo is not wood, and
moisture meters are calibrated to use on WOOD, and furthermore, specific
species of wood.

Moisture meters measure % of moisture they are not only "calibrated to
wood" The one I use Delmhorst, has scales on the screen to use it for
concrete plaster or wood.


You're shooting yourself in the foot, Bubba ... show me were it is
calibrated for GRASS!



--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)


Wake up, any PRO will know a higher than normal moisture content by
experiance, you need a chart for grass , get one. Moisture meters
check % of moisture for just about any material that absorbes it, I
will bet anything one wasnt used on the bamboo, and it wasnt even
attempted to be aclimatised.


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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 16, 6:45*pm, Chris Shearer Cooper
wrote:
I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.


I live in Fort Collins.

I have over 1000sf of bamboo.

My HVAC system has a Honeywell steam humidifier that runs at 41%, year-
round, BUT will dial down the RH below 32*F, to prevent window
condensation.

My bamboo floor has had NO problems, whatsoever.

I would tend to agree with the notion that your product wasn't
appropriately acclimatized to its new environment.

But ... what RH are you running, and ... how consistent is it??
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 16, 7:45*pm, Chris Shearer Cooper
wrote:

snip


we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.


snip


the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches, which pushes us towards solid
wood, but then with solid wood you can't install a floating floor


snip


Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?


snip


The Forest Products Laboratory in Madison WI has long been known as
the best source of info on the behavior of various wood products.
Contact them for info. Not easy, but worth it.
Meanwhile, if you can force yourself to consider something less
faddish and fashionable, and if your family budget and health matters,
there are some fine vinyl sheet flooring materials in realistic wood
patterns that would eliminate all of your problems from the gitgo.
Locally we have seen this in several commercial locations and even a
recent remodeling job in a hospital. In a home environment it
eliminates all the tedium of pet disasters and outwears the best wood
finishes that suffer from doggie toenails and high traffic. At the
moment it is high on my list for a forthcoming remodel.
Something to think about.

Joe
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On 02/16/2010 07:45 PM, Chris Shearer Cooper wrote:
I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.


What is the humidifier set to? What is your humidity swing from winter
to summer?

Solid wood expands/contracts with humidity. No stopping it. Engineered
will move much less, it's basically plywood. The amount of expansion in
a solid wood floor will depend on the species. Look at the "%
Tangential Shrinkage" column in the table at
"http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/shrink_table.htm". The lower the
number, the less shrinkage you'll see as it dries.

There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches


I would expect most of the offgassing to be minimal in prefinished solid
and engineered flooring. Laminate will have some offgassing from the
resin in the core, though better grades will have less.

Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?


Bamboo behaves differently depending on whether it is horizontal,
vertical, or strand. In the vertical orientation it's supposed to
shrink less than oak--but that assumes it was properly acclimatized
before installation.

Chris
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"Joe" wrote in message
...


The Forest Products Laboratory in Madison WI has long been known
as
the best source of info on the behavior of various wood
products.
Contact them for info. Not easy, but worth it.
Meanwhile, if you can force yourself to consider something less
faddish and fashionable, and if your family budget and health
matters,
there are some fine vinyl sheet flooring materials in realistic
wood
patterns that would eliminate all of your problems from the
gitgo.
Locally we have seen this in several commercial locations and
even a
recent remodeling job in a hospital. In a home environment it
eliminates all the tedium of pet disasters and outwears the best
wood
finishes that suffer from doggie toenails and high traffic. At
the
moment it is high on my list for a forthcoming remodel.
Something to think about.

Joe


This is purely anecdotal, but something to check out before going
with an engineered "Pergo"-type floor. Our cabin on Mt.
Charleston was at about 8000' altitude. The flooring on both
levels was a mixture of the Pergo-type flooring and carpet.
During the time we owned it, there was quite a bit of foot traffic
in and out of a lower level doorway, onto a deck that held our hot
tub. Being in a mountainous area, there was lots of snow, rain
and ice. Despite typical precautions, such as throw rugs, and
wiping up, moisture was brought in onto the flooring from wet
feet, fresh from the hot tub, snow and rain.

At first, the flooring held up well, but then we began to notice
swelling at the joints. It was not the type of swelling seen in
real wood flooring, but the particle board backing actually
expanding and coming unglued.

We brought the damage to a halt by purchasing an industrial
walk-off mat from Home Depot. It was 4' X 5', approximately and
had a solid rubber back that was completely water resistant, with
a fleece-like top surface. When there would be a known incident
of water coming in, I'd even move the mat to be sure nothing was
trapped beneath it, but the size essentially prevented that. It
was sure not very pretty, but about the only way I could prevent
the Pergo-like flooring from coming apart.

If I was installing it now, with knowledge of what happened at the
cabin, at least the pieces near the doorway would get a coat of
waterproofing on the tongues, grooves and back, such as Varathane.


--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.


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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On 2/17/2010 10:39 AM, ransley wrote:
On Feb 17, 9:08 am, wrote:
On 2/17/2010 8:59 AM, ransley wrote:

On Feb 17, 8:33 am, wrote:
With regard to moisture meters ... once again, bamboo is not wood, and
moisture meters are calibrated to use on WOOD, and furthermore, specific
species of wood.
Moisture meters measure % of moisture they are not only "calibrated to
wood" The one I use Delmhorst, has scales on the screen to use it for
concrete plaster or wood.


You're shooting yourself in the foot, Bubba ... show me were it is
calibrated for GRASS!



--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)


Wake up, any PRO will know a higher than normal moisture content by
experiance, you need a chart for grass , get one. Moisture meters
check % of moisture for just about any material that absorbes it, I
will bet anything one wasnt used on the bamboo, and it wasnt even
attempted to be aclimatised.


You just neatly excluded yourself from your "PRO" class, Bubba. Your
basic "PRO" would know the difference between wood and grass, and would
know the characteristics of the material he deals with before mouthing off.

Another shot, right in your foot!! ... hope you got more than two, you
won't last long at this rate!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)


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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On 2/17/2010 1:42 PM, Nonny wrote:

At first, the flooring held up well, but then we began to notice
swelling at the joints. It was not the type of swelling seen in real
wood flooring, but the particle board backing actually expanding and
coming unglued.


Real wood flooring can often recover gracefully from man made or natural
disasters, like those resulting in water damage. Not always the case
with alternatives.

One excellent reason, of many, to use it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

Have you by any chance asked a pro flooring outfit
what they recommend ?

I bet they will not recommend a product that requires a call back.

Chris Shearer Cooper wrote:
I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.

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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:45:21 -0800 (PST), Chris Shearer Cooper
wrote:

I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.

So now we're wanting to replace the 20-year-old carpet in the upstairs
with some kind of wood floor, and are not sure which way to go.

The other complication, is that we need to live in these rooms while
we're putting in new floors - we'll move all the furniture out of the
unused bedroom, redo its floor, move my daughter into that bedroom,
redo her floor, etc. so we whatever we use, it needs to be
prefinished.

There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches, which pushes us towards solid
wood, but then with solid wood you can't install a floating floor, so
I'm worried we would get the gap problem again. And then again, I'm
wondering if it's maybe the offgassing from the prefinish that gives
us the headache, in which case for the headache it wouldn't matter if
we chose solid vs. engineered vs. laminate.

Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?

Thanks,
Chris


A solid wood floor is gonna expand and contract unless you can
effectively keep the humidity at the same level all year round.
Composites will do the same, but less. That's the nature of wood.
For bath/kitchen vinyl is the practical choice.
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:45:21 -0800 (PST), the infamous Chris Shearer
Cooper scrawled the following:

I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.

So now we're wanting to replace the 20-year-old carpet in the upstairs
with some kind of wood floor, and are not sure which way to go.

The other complication, is that we need to live in these rooms while
we're putting in new floors - we'll move all the furniture out of the
unused bedroom, redo its floor, move my daughter into that bedroom,
redo her floor, etc. so we whatever we use, it needs to be
prefinished.

There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches, which pushes us towards solid
wood, but then with solid wood you can't install a floating floor, so
I'm worried we would get the gap problem again. And then again, I'm
wondering if it's maybe the offgassing from the prefinish that gives
us the headache, in which case for the headache it wouldn't matter if
we chose solid vs. engineered vs. laminate.

Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?


Chris, the simple answer is to keep your humidity in the house the
same yearround. Don't leave the windows open, do use bathroom fans
and kitchen fans, etc. Check with your Carrier HVAC dealer. If you
want the outside air, go outside. Build yourself a nice covered and/or
screened porch and enjoy.

--
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
-- Clarence Darrow
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:31:01 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:45:21 -0800 (PST), the infamous Chris Shearer
Cooper scrawled the following:

I live in Colorado, and a few years ago had a bamboo floor installed
in my kitchen and living room, and have been very disappointed.
Despite the whole-house humidifier attached to the forced air heating
system, the "planks" (is that the right word?) contract in the winter,
and then kitchen debris finds its way into the cracks, and we end up
with ugly black lines where the planks touch.

So now we're wanting to replace the 20-year-old carpet in the upstairs
with some kind of wood floor, and are not sure which way to go.

The other complication, is that we need to live in these rooms while
we're putting in new floors - we'll move all the furniture out of the
unused bedroom, redo its floor, move my daughter into that bedroom,
redo her floor, etc. so we whatever we use, it needs to be
prefinished.

There are some nice-looking engineered wood products, but we're
concerned about the odors ... the off-gassing from a lot of those
kinds of products gives us headaches, which pushes us towards solid
wood, but then with solid wood you can't install a floating floor, so
I'm worried we would get the gap problem again. And then again, I'm
wondering if it's maybe the offgassing from the prefinish that gives
us the headache, in which case for the headache it wouldn't matter if
we chose solid vs. engineered vs. laminate.

Was the guy at Home Depot right, that the more traditional woods (oak,
for example) do better in the dry climate of Colorado?


Chris, the simple answer is to keep your humidity in the house the
same yearround. Don't leave the windows open, do use bathroom fans
and kitchen fans, etc. Check with your Carrier HVAC dealer. If you
want the outside air, go outside. Build yourself a nice covered and/or
screened porch and enjoy.


Install cork flooring and don't worry about open windows, bathroom
fans or high/low humidity levels.



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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?


Chris:
My wife and I installed about 900sf of Oak in our new home last year
and so far it is great. I think we live on the other end of the
humidity scale because here (extreme SE KS) it is pretty humid year-
round, especially summer. However, we temper with air conditioning.

The product is a pre-finished 3/4" oak, with a micro-bevel edge that
was manufactured in SW Missouri; so it never got far from its
manufacturing origin. We listened to the manufacturer and his main
advice was "acclimate, acclimate, acclimate" We did most of the home
finish during the winter and we took delivery of the flooring a full
month ahead of installation. Up until it arrived, we were letting the
house cool during the night and warming it back up to 55-60 degrees
during the day to save money. When the wood arrived we reprogrammed
the thermostat to keep the house at 65 degrees until we moved in a
couple of months later (we normally keep temp at 70 degrees during
day). The boxes sat in the house closed, two deep, and criss-crossed
for a week to allow air circulation among them. Then we opened them
and shifted the contents around a bit. We were anticipating about a
week to install, so a few days before we started we removed about 1/3
of the contents from the cartons. and blocked them off of the floor
with scrap strips. We laid roofing felt on the floor and nailed the
flooring on 8" centers (on joist, and one between) with a pneumatic
flooring nailer. As we used material, we removed similar amounts from
the cartons and spread them out, so everything had a few days of open
air exposure.

I kept a pretty close eye on things for the first few months expecting
to seem some activity as we headed into spring and I was disappointed
- nothing really happened. We did hear an occasional night-time
"creak" for the first few weeks after moving in. After a full year
the floor looks great. There are a very few places where the edge gap
might have opened slightly and most of these are near the wall where
we had to surface nail (versus tongue nail). We also have a very few
squeakers but again, most are close to walls. I am convinced the
acclimation process paid off.

We too looked at engineered products but I couldn't sell myself. My
concern wasn't off-gassing as much as long-term viability. A hardwood
floor should last 'forever'. Granted, you have to refinish every
15-25 years (ours has a 25 year finish warranty (yeah, right!)). Many
of the engineered products wouldn't allow more than one sanding, if
any. That puts it into the category of expensive carpet.

Regarding off-gassing and odor of our pre-finished product, we never
noticed any odor when we opened the cartons. When we built our last
house we had a hardwood installer install and finish bare material.
The smell during finish was truly eye-watering and lingered for some
time after completion. We had none of that with pre-finished.

Hope this helps. I think the main lessons are get the material into
the house early, put down a good underlay and don't skimp on nails.
If you hire someone to do it make sure the installer is qualified and
does it right. Living with the opened containers, for several weeks,
might be a little uncomfortable but it will pay off.

RonB
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 19, 7:19*am, RonB wrote:
Chris:
My wife and I installed about 900sf of Oak in our new home last year
and so far it is great. *I think we live on the other end of the
humidity scale because here (extreme SE KS) it is pretty humid year-
round, especially summer. *However, we temper with air conditioning.

The product is a pre-finished 3/4" oak, with a micro-bevel edge that
was manufactured in SW Missouri; so it never got far from its
manufacturing origin. *We listened to the manufacturer and his main
advice was "acclimate, acclimate, acclimate" *We did most of the home
finish during the winter and we took delivery of the flooring a full
month ahead of installation. *Up until it arrived, we were letting the
house cool during the night and warming it back up to 55-60 degrees
during the day to save money. *When thewoodarrived we reprogrammed
the thermostat to keep the house at 65 degrees until we moved in a
couple of months later (we normally keep temp at 70 degrees during
day). *The boxes sat in the house closed, two deep, and criss-crossed
for a week to allow air circulation among them. Then we opened them
and shifted the contents around a bit. *We were anticipating about a
week to install, so a few days before we started we removed about 1/3
of the contents from the cartons. and blocked them off of the floor
with scrap strips. *We laid roofing felt on the floor and nailed the
flooring on 8" centers (on joist, and one between) with a pneumatic
flooring nailer. *As we used material, we removed similar amounts from
the cartons and spread them out, so everything had a few days of open
air exposure.

I kept a pretty close eye on things for the first few months expecting
to seem some activity as we headed into spring and I was disappointed
- nothing really happened. We did hear an occasional night-time
"creak" for the first few weeks after moving in. *After a full year
the floor looks great. *There are a very few places where the edge gap
might have opened slightly and most of these are near the wall where
we had to surface nail (versus tongue nail). *We also have a very few
squeakers but again, most are close to walls. *I am convinced the
acclimation process paid off.

We too looked at engineered products but I couldn't sell myself. *My
concern wasn't off-gassing as much as long-term viability. *A hardwood
floor should last 'forever'. *Granted, you have to refinish every
15-25 years (ours has a 25 year finish warranty (yeah, right!)). *Many
of the engineered products wouldn't allow more than one sanding, if
any. *That puts it into the category of expensive carpet.

Regarding off-gassing and odor of our pre-finished product, we never
noticed any odor when we opened the cartons. *When we built our last
house we had a hardwood installer install and finish bare material.
The smell during finish was truly eye-watering and lingered for some
time after completion. *We had none of that with pre-finished.

Hope this helps. *I think the main lessons are get the material into
the house early, put down a good underlay and don't skimp on nails.
If you hire someone to do it make sure the installer is qualified and
does it right. *Living with the opened containers, for several weeks,
might be a little uncomfortable but it will pay off.

RonB


A few people asked about the relative humidity in our house, I'm
afraid I really don't know. We do keep the humidifier running pretty
strong in the winter (due to various allergies and other sinus issues)
and turned off in the summer, so it's quite possible we have a
noticeable RH swing between winter & summer.

Chris
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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 19, 10:00*am, Chris Shearer Cooper
wrote:
On Feb 19, 7:19*am, RonB wrote:





Chris:
My wife and I installed about 900sf of Oak in our new home last year
and so far it is great. *I think we live on the other end of the
humidity scale because here (extreme SE KS) it is pretty humid year-
round, especially summer. *However, we temper with air conditioning.


The product is a pre-finished 3/4" oak, with a micro-bevel edge that
was manufactured in SW Missouri; so it never got far from its
manufacturing origin. *We listened to the manufacturer and his main
advice was "acclimate, acclimate, acclimate" *We did most of the home
finish during the winter and we took delivery of the flooring a full
month ahead of installation. *Up until it arrived, we were letting the
house cool during the night and warming it back up to 55-60 degrees
during the day to save money. *When thewoodarrived we reprogrammed
the thermostat to keep the house at 65 degrees until we moved in a
couple of months later (we normally keep temp at 70 degrees during
day). *The boxes sat in the house closed, two deep, and criss-crossed
for a week to allow air circulation among them. Then we opened them
and shifted the contents around a bit. *We were anticipating about a
week to install, so a few days before we started we removed about 1/3
of the contents from the cartons. and blocked them off of the floor
with scrap strips. *We laid roofing felt on the floor and nailed the
flooring on 8" centers (on joist, and one between) with a pneumatic
flooring nailer. *As we used material, we removed similar amounts from
the cartons and spread them out, so everything had a few days of open
air exposure.


I kept a pretty close eye on things for the first few months expecting
to seem some activity as we headed into spring and I was disappointed
- nothing really happened. We did hear an occasional night-time
"creak" for the first few weeks after moving in. *After a full year
the floor looks great. *There are a very few places where the edge gap
might have opened slightly and most of these are near the wall where
we had to surface nail (versus tongue nail). *We also have a very few
squeakers but again, most are close to walls. *I am convinced the
acclimation process paid off.


We too looked at engineered products but I couldn't sell myself. *My
concern wasn't off-gassing as much as long-term viability. *A hardwood
floor should last 'forever'. *Granted, you have to refinish every
15-25 years (ours has a 25 year finish warranty (yeah, right!)). *Many
of the engineered products wouldn't allow more than one sanding, if
any. *That puts it into the category of expensive carpet.


Regarding off-gassing and odor of our pre-finished product, we never
noticed any odor when we opened the cartons. *When we built our last
house we had a hardwood installer install and finish bare material.
The smell during finish was truly eye-watering and lingered for some
time after completion. *We had none of that with pre-finished.


Hope this helps. *I think the main lessons are get the material into
the house early, put down a good underlay and don't skimp on nails.
If you hire someone to do it make sure the installer is qualified and
does it right. *Living with the opened containers, for several weeks,
might be a little uncomfortable but it will pay off.


RonB


A few people asked about the relative humidity in our house, I'm
afraid I really don't know. *We do keep the humidifier running pretty
strong in the winter (due to various allergies and other sinus issues)
and turned off in the summer, so it's quite possible we have a
noticeable RH swing between winter & summer.

Chris


A fairly accurate gauge is fairly cheap.

Watch the amplitude of the seasonal RH swings, and ... dollars to
donuts ... you'll have your answer.

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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 19, 10:20*am, Neil Brooks wrote:
On Feb 19, 10:00*am, Chris Shearer Cooper



wrote:
On Feb 19, 7:19*am, RonB wrote:


Chris:
My wife and I installed about 900sf of Oak in our new home last year
and so far it is great. *I think we live on the other end of the
humidity scale because here (extreme SE KS) it is pretty humid year-
round, especially summer. *However, we temper with air conditioning..


The product is a pre-finished 3/4" oak, with a micro-bevel edge that
was manufactured in SW Missouri; so it never got far from its
manufacturing origin. *We listened to the manufacturer and his main
advice was "acclimate, acclimate, acclimate" *We did most of the home
finish during the winter and we took delivery of the flooring a full
month ahead of installation. *Up until it arrived, we were letting the
house cool during the night and warming it back up to 55-60 degrees
during the day to save money. *When thewoodarrived we reprogrammed
the thermostat to keep the house at 65 degrees until we moved in a
couple of months later (we normally keep temp at 70 degrees during
day). *The boxes sat in the house closed, two deep, and criss-crossed
for a week to allow air circulation among them. Then we opened them
and shifted the contents around a bit. *We were anticipating about a
week to install, so a few days before we started we removed about 1/3
of the contents from the cartons. and blocked them off of the floor
with scrap strips. *We laid roofing felt on the floor and nailed the
flooring on 8" centers (on joist, and one between) with a pneumatic
flooring nailer. *As we used material, we removed similar amounts from
the cartons and spread them out, so everything had a few days of open
air exposure.


I kept a pretty close eye on things for the first few months expecting
to seem some activity as we headed into spring and I was disappointed
- nothing really happened. We did hear an occasional night-time
"creak" for the first few weeks after moving in. *After a full year
the floor looks great. *There are a very few places where the edge gap
might have opened slightly and most of these are near the wall where
we had to surface nail (versus tongue nail). *We also have a very few
squeakers but again, most are close to walls. *I am convinced the
acclimation process paid off.


We too looked at engineered products but I couldn't sell myself. *My
concern wasn't off-gassing as much as long-term viability. *A hardwood
floor should last 'forever'. *Granted, you have to refinish every
15-25 years (ours has a 25 year finish warranty (yeah, right!)). *Many
of the engineered products wouldn't allow more than one sanding, if
any. *That puts it into the category of expensive carpet.


Regarding off-gassing and odor of our pre-finished product, we never
noticed any odor when we opened the cartons. *When we built our last
house we had a hardwood installer install and finish bare material.
The smell during finish was truly eye-watering and lingered for some
time after completion. *We had none of that with pre-finished.


Hope this helps. *I think the main lessons are get the material into
the house early, put down a good underlay and don't skimp on nails.
If you hire someone to do it make sure the installer is qualified and
does it right. *Living with the opened containers, for several weeks,
might be a little uncomfortable but it will pay off.


RonB


A few people asked about the relative humidity in our house, I'm
afraid I really don't know. *We do keep the humidifier running pretty
strong in the winter (due to various allergies and other sinus issues)
and turned off in the summer, so it's quite possible we have a
noticeable RH swing between winter & summer.


Chris


A fairly accurate gauge is fairly cheap.

Watch the amplitude of the seasonal RH swings, and ... dollars to
donuts ... you'll have your answer.


Will I have an answer, or just more questions? :-)

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that my house gets really dry in
the summer, and is relatively humid in the winter. There's no way I'm
going to run the humidifier in the summer, it's hot enough as is, the
A/C has just enough oomph to keep the house cool without making it
fight with a humidifier too. So I still need to find a flooring
solution that can handle the humidity swings (which sounds like I need
to avoid solid wood and also solid grass).

Or, what if my house isn't that different (humidity-wise) in winter
vs. summer. Then I guess we say the problems I've seen with my bamboo
are not with seasonal variations, but rather just that the bamboo
wasn't fully dry when it was installed, and that installing bamboo in
the future might do just fine ... except that it's difficult to say
when bamboo is really fully dry (has reached equilibrium moisture
content), so I run the risk of having the same problem with the new
floor, so I'm still better off avoiding bamboo.

Yes?

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Default Best wood floors in dry climate?

On Feb 19, 10:20*am, Neil Brooks wrote:
On Feb 19, 10:00*am, Chris Shearer Cooper



wrote:
On Feb 19, 7:19*am, RonB wrote:


Chris:
My wife and I installed about 900sf of Oak in our new home last year
and so far it is great. *I think we live on the other end of the
humidity scale because here (extreme SE KS) it is pretty humid year-
round, especially summer. *However, we temper with air conditioning..


The product is a pre-finished 3/4" oak, with a micro-bevel edge that
was manufactured in SW Missouri; so it never got far from its
manufacturing origin. *We listened to the manufacturer and his main
advice was "acclimate, acclimate, acclimate" *We did most of the home
finish during the winter and we took delivery of the flooring a full
month ahead of installation. *Up until it arrived, we were letting the
house cool during the night and warming it back up to 55-60 degrees
during the day to save money. *When thewoodarrived we reprogrammed
the thermostat to keep the house at 65 degrees until we moved in a
couple of months later (we normally keep temp at 70 degrees during
day). *The boxes sat in the house closed, two deep, and criss-crossed
for a week to allow air circulation among them. Then we opened them
and shifted the contents around a bit. *We were anticipating about a
week to install, so a few days before we started we removed about 1/3
of the contents from the cartons. and blocked them off of the floor
with scrap strips. *We laid roofing felt on the floor and nailed the
flooring on 8" centers (on joist, and one between) with a pneumatic
flooring nailer. *As we used material, we removed similar amounts from
the cartons and spread them out, so everything had a few days of open
air exposure.


I kept a pretty close eye on things for the first few months expecting
to seem some activity as we headed into spring and I was disappointed
- nothing really happened. We did hear an occasional night-time
"creak" for the first few weeks after moving in. *After a full year
the floor looks great. *There are a very few places where the edge gap
might have opened slightly and most of these are near the wall where
we had to surface nail (versus tongue nail). *We also have a very few
squeakers but again, most are close to walls. *I am convinced the
acclimation process paid off.


We too looked at engineered products but I couldn't sell myself. *My
concern wasn't off-gassing as much as long-term viability. *A hardwood
floor should last 'forever'. *Granted, you have to refinish every
15-25 years (ours has a 25 year finish warranty (yeah, right!)). *Many
of the engineered products wouldn't allow more than one sanding, if
any. *That puts it into the category of expensive carpet.


Regarding off-gassing and odor of our pre-finished product, we never
noticed any odor when we opened the cartons. *When we built our last
house we had a hardwood installer install and finish bare material.
The smell during finish was truly eye-watering and lingered for some
time after completion. *We had none of that with pre-finished.


Hope this helps. *I think the main lessons are get the material into
the house early, put down a good underlay and don't skimp on nails.
If you hire someone to do it make sure the installer is qualified and
does it right. *Living with the opened containers, for several weeks,
might be a little uncomfortable but it will pay off.


RonB


A few people asked about the relative humidity in our house, I'm
afraid I really don't know. *We do keep the humidifier running pretty
strong in the winter (due to various allergies and other sinus issues)
and turned off in the summer, so it's quite possible we have a
noticeable RH swing between winter & summer.


Chris


A fairly accurate gauge is fairly cheap.

Watch the amplitude of the seasonal RH swings, and ... dollars to
donuts ... you'll have your answer.


Will I have an answer, or just more questions? :-)

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that my house gets really dry in
the summer, and is relatively humid in the winter. There's no way I'm
going to run the humidifier in the summer, it's hot enough as is, the
A/C has just enough oomph to keep the house cool without making it
fight with a humidifier too. So I still need to find a flooring
solution that can handle the humidity swings (which sounds like I need
to avoid solid wood and also solid grass).

Or, what if my house isn't that different (humidity-wise) in winter
vs. summer. Then I guess we say the problems I've seen with my bamboo
are not with seasonal variations, but rather just that the bamboo
wasn't fully dry when it was installed, and that installing bamboo in
the future might do just fine ... except that it's difficult to say
when bamboo is really fully dry (has reached equilibrium moisture
content), so I run the risk of having the same problem with the new
floor, so I'm still better off avoiding bamboo.

Yes?

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