[Bill]

1. A sliding T-bevel seems like it would be a useful markup tool.
Any special reason they put a potentially blood-letting 45 degree
point on the tail end of the blade (to help make it a combination square?)?


2. I bought a (wheel) marking guage recently, but now it seems to me that a
"mortise and marking guage" would be generally more useful.
Can you think of any reason I might want to keep the first rather than just
"upgrade"
to the second? Is the wheel marking guage more helpful in marking the part
of the mortise or tenon that goes contrary to the grain than the other
marking guage
would be?

Bill

[Chris Friesen]

On 01/24/2010 07:58 PM, Bill wrote:
1. A sliding T-bevel seems like it would be a useful markup tool.
Any special reason they put a potentially blood-letting 45 degree
point on the tail end of the blade (to help make it a combination square?)?

Good question....I've got no clue. Shinwa makes some reasonably priced
ones:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/M...egory_Code=TMB

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...36,50298,43508


2. I bought a (wheel) marking guage recently, but now it seems to me that a
"mortise and marking guage" would be generally more useful.
Can you think of any reason I might want to keep the first rather than just
"upgrade"
to the second? Is the wheel marking guage more helpful in marking the part
of the mortise or tenon that goes contrary to the grain than the other
marking guage
would be?

The mortise gauge (with two blades) is actually often more useful when
marking the tenon than the mortise. If making the mortise the same
thickness as your tooling, you really only need to mark one side.

Depending on the wheel gauge, you may be able to purchase additional
heads for marking mortises. This is the case for the Vertias and the
Tite-Mark, for instance.

It's worth having a mortise gauge, but if I were you I wouldn't get rid
of the other one--it's often useful to have multiple gauges set to
different measurements in case you need to go back and mark something
that you forgot about the first time.

Chris

[Bill[_31_]]

Chris Friesen wrote:

The mortise gauge (with two blades) is actually often more useful when
marking the tenon than the mortise. If making the mortise the same
thickness as your tooling, you really only need to mark one side.


To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides
of the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.

I think those that use the double-bladed mortise guage adjust the guage
off of the cut tenon, and it seems that this would give a little more
control than marking directly from the tenon itself. Because, for
instance, you might cut the mortise just a wee-bit smaller for a snug fit.

Please correct me (anyone) where appropriate!

Best,
Bill

[Bill[_31_]]

Bill wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:

The mortise gauge (with two blades) is actually often more useful when
marking the tenon than the mortise. If making the mortise the same
thickness as your tooling, you really only need to mark one side.


To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides
of the end of a beam

(ONTO the end of the beam)


using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.

I think those that use the double-bladed mortise guage adjust the guage
off of the cut tenon, and it seems that this would give a little more
control than marking directly from the tenon itself. Because, for
instance, you might cut the mortise just a wee-bit smaller for a snug fit.

Please correct me (anyone) where appropriate!

Best,
Bill

[CW[_5_]]

"Bill" wrote in message
...

To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides of
the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.

Any error is then doubled.

[Chris Friesen]

On 01/25/2010 11:38 AM, Bill wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:

The mortise gauge (with two blades) is actually often more useful when
marking the tenon than the mortise. If making the mortise the same
thickness as your tooling, you really only need to mark one side.

To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides
of the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.

Especially when working with hand-dressed lumber, your stock may not all
be exactly the same thickness. By referencing all measurements from the
show side of the stock, the exact stock thickness doesn't matter. The
show side will be exactly as planned and the back side can be either
left as-is or flushed up as appropriate.

I think those that use the double-bladed mortise guage adjust the guage
off of the cut tenon, and it seems that this would give a little more
control than marking directly from the tenon itself. Because, for
instance, you might cut the mortise just a wee-bit smaller for a snug fit.

Typically you would set the gap between the knives of the mortise gauge
from the tool used to cut the mortise, be that a router bit, hollow
chisel, mortise chisel, etc. The fence is then set to locate the tenon
on the thickness of the stock.

For the mortise, you can use the same gauge if the members are the same
thickness (door frame) or a separate gauge if they're not (table legs
and aprons).

Chris

[Bill[_31_]]

CW wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate
sides of the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield
better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.


Any error is then doubled.

Not the error in the measurement of the shoulder width, and this
way the tenon would be more likely to be centered. At least, that's
the way I thought about it. How do you prefer to think about it--by
calculating the tenon width in advance and then trying to mark the
lines about the center by eye, or do you use a measuring rule?

Best,
Bill

[Lew Hodgett[_6_]]

T-Bevel

Don't leave home without one, especially if you want to work on a
boat.

Tenons

They are why table saws exist.

Lew

[CW[_5_]]

"Bill" wrote in message
...
CW wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides
of the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.


Any error is then doubled.

Not the error in the measurement of the shoulder width, and this
way the tenon would be more likely to be centered. At least, that's
the way I thought about it. How do you prefer to think about it--by
calculating the tenon width in advance and then trying to mark the
lines about the center by eye, or do you use a measuring rule?


That would give you uniform shoulders but, if the tennon doesn't fit, what
difference are uniform shoulders going to do you? Marking from both sides of
the stock will work if your wood is exactly the same size (unlikely if
dressed by hand) and you hold your gage just perfect. You will have far
better results with this (and everything you make), if you pick a side and
work from there.

[Bill[_31_]]

Thank you for a good lesson!

Bill


CW wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...
CW wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate
sides of the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield
better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.


Any error is then doubled.

Not the error in the measurement of the shoulder width, and this
way the tenon would be more likely to be centered. At least, that's
the way I thought about it. How do you prefer to think about it--by
calculating the tenon width in advance and then trying to mark the
lines about the center by eye, or do you use a measuring rule?


That would give you uniform shoulders but, if the tennon doesn't fit,
what difference are uniform shoulders going to do you? Marking from both
sides of the stock will work if your wood is exactly the same size
(unlikely if dressed by hand) and you hold your gage just perfect. You
will have far better results with this (and everything you make), if you
pick a side and work from there.

[Chris Friesen]

On 01/25/2010 06:24 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
CW wrote:

Marking
from both sides of the stock will work if your wood is exactly the
same size (unlikely if dressed by hand) and you hold your gage just
perfect. You will have far better results with this (and everything
you make), if you pick a side and work from there.

Pretty decent justification for a planer IMHO.

Until you get that gorgeous piece of wood that's just wider than your
planer...and you want to keep it full width.

It never hurts to know how to do things by hand, even if you rarely need
to use the knowledge.

Chris

[Jeff Gorman]

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Chris Friesen wrote:

The mortise gauge (with two blades) is actually often more useful when
marking the tenon than the mortise. If making the mortise the same
thickness as your tooling, you really only need to mark one side.


To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides of
the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.

I think those that use the double-bladed mortise guage adjust the guage
off of the cut tenon, and it seems that this would give a little more
control than marking directly from the tenon itself. Because, for
instance, you might cut the mortise just a wee-bit smaller for a snug fit.

The accepted drill goes as follows:

Nominate a face of each piece as the datum face (Face side) and an edge at
right angles to it as the Face Edge. Mark with an 'l' type mark with the
bottom of the ell shooting off towards the face edge. Mark the face edge
with a vee that joins the bottom of the ell.

Always work the gauge's stock on the face side.

Set the gauge points to the size of the tool making the mortise. Actually
with the tool just resting between the point at their very very tips. This
ensures a very slightly wider tenon.

To get the joint central to the workpiece, estimate the setting of the
stock, with the gauge against the face side make two dents.

With the stock on the opposite face make dents alongside the others.

Reset the stock so that the points fit exactly between the pairs of dents.

Repeat if necessary.

Good luck,

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

[Bill]

"Jeff Gorman" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Chris Friesen wrote:

The mortise gauge (with two blades) is actually often more useful when
marking the tenon than the mortise. If making the mortise the same
thickness as your tooling, you really only need to mark one side.


To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides
of the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.

I think those that use the double-bladed mortise guage adjust the guage
off of the cut tenon, and it seems that this would give a little more
control than marking directly from the tenon itself. Because, for
instance, you might cut the mortise just a wee-bit smaller for a snug
fit.

The accepted drill goes as follows:

Nominate a face of each piece as the datum face (Face side) and an edge at
right angles to it as the Face Edge. Mark with an 'l' type mark with the
bottom of the ell shooting off towards the face edge. Mark the face edge
with a vee that joins the bottom of the ell.

Always work the gauge's stock on the face side.

Set the gauge points to the size of the tool making the mortise. Actually
with the tool just resting between the point at their very very tips. This
ensures a very slightly wider tenon.

To get the joint central to the workpiece, estimate the setting of the
stock, with the gauge against the face side make two dents.

With the stock on the opposite face make dents alongside the others.

Reset the stock so that the points fit exactly between the pairs of dents.

Repeat if necessary.

Good luck,

Jeff


Thank you for going into such detail. If I understand what you've written
correctly,
it will work great if the two pieces of stock to be joined are the same
size/width.

Also, the "one marked line" version described earlier may give superior
results
if the two pieces to be joined are not the same size/width.

Bill



--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

[Bill]

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Bill" wrote in message
...
CW wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

To me, a beginner, it seems that marking the tenon from alternate sides
of the end of a beam using a single-bladed guage would yield better
results than try to center a double-bladed guage by hand.


Any error is then doubled.

Not the error in the measurement of the shoulder width, and this
way the tenon would be more likely to be centered. At least, that's
the way I thought about it. How do you prefer to think about it--by
calculating the tenon width in advance and then trying to mark the
lines about the center by eye, or do you use a measuring rule?


That would give you uniform shoulders but, if the tennon doesn't fit, what
difference are uniform shoulders going to do you? Marking from both sides
of the stock will work if your wood is exactly the same size (unlikely if
dressed by hand) and you hold your gage just perfect. You will have far
better results with this (and everything you make), if you pick a side and
work from there.

In case anyone else is interested in this discussion, here is a link to a
fine YouTube video
on cutting a mortise and tenon joint by hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3jByNHeGxs


Bill

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:14:49 -0500, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:

--snip--
In case anyone else is interested in this discussion, here is a link to a
fine YouTube video
on cutting a mortise and tenon joint by hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3jByNHeGxs

Yeah, that's pretty much it, but he got a bit careless in his haste
for the video. I wish he'd been more professional about it.

1) He cut down into the shoulders of the tenon piece several times as
he quickly hacked off the excess.

2) He didn't pad the mortise piece from the clamp, so it was sure to
have a dent where it was clamped down.

3) And did you notice the gapers he left as he fit the tenon into the
mortise? At 5:44 into the film, the gap shown is roughly 3/16". The
mortise is longer than it should be, reducing the strength of the
joint.

---
"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster."
Kevin Vranes, climate scientist, University of Colorado
talking about global warming hysteria, January, 2007.

[Bill]

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:14:49 -0500, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:

--snip--
In case anyone else is interested in this discussion, here is a link to a
fine YouTube video
on cutting a mortise and tenon joint by hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3jByNHeGxs

Yeah, that's pretty much it, but he got a bit careless in his haste
for the video. I wish he'd been more professional about it.


You have a good eye:

1) He cut down into the shoulders of the tenon piece several times as
he quickly hacked off the excess.

Should he have just been "more careful" to stop on the line?


3) And did you notice the gapers he left as he fit the tenon into the
mortise? At 5:44 into the film, the gap shown is roughly 3/16". The
mortise is longer than it should be, reducing the strength of the
joint.


Not only is it longer, but it looks wider too. Is this an error, or is
cutting it a little wide unavoidable?
At the beginning of the video he points out that the difference between a
good fit and a poor fit can be
measured in thousandths of an inch. Did he fail his test?

Bill

---
"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster."
Kevin Vranes, climate scientist, University of Colorado
talking about global warming hysteria, January, 2007.

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:40:19 -0500, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:14:49 -0500, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:

--snip--
In case anyone else is interested in this discussion, here is a link to a
fine YouTube video
on cutting a mortise and tenon joint by hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3jByNHeGxs

Yeah, that's pretty much it, but he got a bit careless in his haste
for the video. I wish he'd been more professional about it.


You have a good eye:

1) He cut down into the shoulders of the tenon piece several times as
he quickly hacked off the excess.

Should he have just been "more careful" to stop on the line?

Yes.


3) And did you notice the gapers he left as he fit the tenon into the
mortise? At 5:44 into the film, the gap shown is roughly 3/16". The
mortise is longer than it should be, reducing the strength of the
joint.


Not only is it longer, but it looks wider too. Is this an error, or is
cutting it a little wide unavoidable?

Width is 1/3-1/2 the stock thickness. I think you're mistaking depth
for length. By length, I mean the long dimension of the rectangular
mortise hole. Yes, it's an error if you don't make the hole the same
size as the pole.


At the beginning of the video he points out that the difference between a
good fit and a poor fit can be
measured in thousandths of an inch. Did he fail his test?

He sure did. I know it was made for teaching, but a professional
(like Frank Klausz in his M&T video) does a bit better, showing only
what the student -should- see.

---
"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster."
Kevin Vranes, climate scientist, University of Colorado
talking about global warming hysteria, January, 2007.

[Bill]

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

He sure did. I know it was made for teaching, but a professional
(like Frank Klausz in his M&T video) does a bit better, showing only
what the student -should- see.

Larry,

I watched it. One thing that came to mind is it wouldn't be so easy to pound
the
tenon if he had one on each end of the beam.

I haven't seen anyone use any glue on these joints yet.
They do glue them, don't they? Or not always?

Bill

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:48:23 -0500, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

He sure did. I know it was made for teaching, but a professional
(like Frank Klausz in his M&T video) does a bit better, showing only
what the student -should- see.

Larry,

I watched it. One thing that came to mind is it wouldn't be so easy to pound
the tenon if he had one on each end of the beam.

Oh, his mortising video is on FWW and tenon cutting on YouTube. Cool.

OK, my opinion is that in this video, the tenon was just a bit too
tight. My reasoning is twofold: once you get glue on it, the tenon
tends to swell a couple thou, and too tight a joint leaves little room
for glue and starves the joint. A well made M&T is strong
structurally, so it can hold despite some starvation, but not too
much. I'd have pared that tenon with a fine cut until it was, as
Goldilocks said "Just right!"

Pound on the tenon? You should never have to pound. Tap the joint
together, yes. Pound, no. That's too tight. You could damage something
taking apart the test assembly.


I haven't seen anyone use any glue on these joints yet.

The video in question was a quick demo. Glue is used in production in
conjunction with LOTS AND LOTS OF CLAMPS. (All together now, boys:
"You can never have too many clamps.")


They do glue them, don't they? Or not always?

Not always. In timberframing, they're pegged and they HAVE to be
precise for strength.

--
It is in his pleasure that a man really lives; it is from
his leisure that he constructs the true fabric of self.
-- Agnes Repplier

[Bill[_31_]]

Larry Jaques wrote:


Pound on the tenon? You should never have to pound. Tap the joint
together, yes. Pound, no. That's too tight. You could damage something
taking apart the test assembly.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I was watching Frank Klausz
pound his joint together in his M&T video! How is he going to
separate that joint without the possibility of fracturing something?!

One thing I haven't see anyone do (which they do when they glue a banjo
dowel rod) is to leave room for the glue to escape, by leaving a little
path along the tenon. Evidently it's not necessary?

Consider the nature of the joint (emphasis on the tenon cheeks and
mortise sides) I assume it's not an issue if the mortise is cut a little
too deep, correct (better a little too deep, than a little too shallow!)?

Bill

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:38:00 -0500, the infamous Bill
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:


Pound on the tenon? You should never have to pound. Tap the joint
together, yes. Pound, no. That's too tight. You could damage something
taking apart the test assembly.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I was watching Frank Klausz
pound his joint together in his M&T video! How is he going to
separate that joint without the possibility of fracturing something?!

One thing I haven't see anyone do (which they do when they glue a banjo
dowel rod) is to leave room for the glue to escape, by leaving a little
path along the tenon. Evidently it's not necessary?

Most people can't make perfectly mating joints, so there's room for it
to squeeze out or move into the mortise which is inevitably deeper
than it needs to be.


Consider the nature of the joint (emphasis on the tenon cheeks and
mortise sides) I assume it's not an issue if the mortise is cut a little
too deep, correct (better a little too deep, than a little too shallow!)?

Right. Then again, there are a few people who use massive gobs of glue
and get squeezeout on all sides and squozen into every possible pocket
underneath, but they learn quickly, usually.

--
It is in his pleasure that a man really lives; it is from
his leisure that he constructs the true fabric of self.
-- Agnes Repplier