I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
Following common sense and information widely available on the net, I
think my son and I have a good car. It's got a curvy wedge shape,
we've weighted it pretty good so that it's near the maximum allowed,
the center of gravity is about an inch in front of the rear axles,
we've deburred and polished the axles so that the wheels spin for a
long time on them, even unlubed...

But now I'm feeling a bit loaded down at what should be a simple step
- painting the car.

We bought some yellow and red brush-on oil-based enamel. We put a
first coat on the car and it looked kind of splotchy. Sanded it with
200-grit sandpaper, and it really looked bad. Then another coat of
enamel. That made it shinier, but still didn't look too good.

Okay, here come the questions:

1. How much paint can we get away with without making the car too
heavy? The unpainted car, weighed along with a plastic bag containing
the axles and wheels, weighed 4.90 ounces on the scale at the post
office. We are brushing the enamel on. We're not slobbering it on
thick enough for runs and drips, but we're not finessing it as nicely
as we could either.

2. We didn't "seal" or "prime" the car before painting. How bad is
this? However, we DID heat the car up in a 200 degree oven for about
15 minutes before painting, figuring that would chase a lot of the
moisture out of the wood, and that the first coat of paint would
"seal" that moisture from coming back in.

3. What is a "right" way to sand? As I said, the sanding after the
first coat of paint, using quite a bit of pressure and 200-grit paper,
really made the thing look bad.

4. We bought a spray-on lacquer to use as a final coat. How shiny
will this make the car? And should we apply this AFTER applying the
decals?

5. For next year - should we have gone with spray-on paint rather than
brush-on?

I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

usenetdg wrote...some questions about finishing the car.

First off, I've never seen a really nice looking brush-on paint job on
one of these cars. My son brushed on his first one, and was very
disappointed with it, so I cleaned off his paint with lacquer thinner
(well-ventilated area with a fan, and use gloves!) and taught him how to
spray it. At that age, his little hands couldn't hold down a spray can
button very well, but this was easily remedied with one of those cheap
aftermarket gun-like squeeze handles.

Sand the bare wood to 180 or 220 grit. Use a light touch and a lot of
back-and-forth strokes with the grain. Start with 60 or 80 grit, and
don't skip any grits. Shouldn't take more than two or three minutes per
grit at the most, and probably less. When you're finished, clean off the
dust with a rag at least; a tack cloth or vacuum is better.

Run a fairly stiff wire through each of the axle slots. It needs to stay
in the slots, so you can lift and turn the car over by the wires, but it
shouldn't be so fat as to "waller-out" the slots and make the axles
loose. You want to be able to suspend the car on the wires between a
couple of bricks or something, spray the bottom, flip it, and spray the
top.

You will need a couple cans of paint: whatever color he wants, the
primer, and optionally a can of clear. Avoid multi-color schemes, pin-
striping, and other complexities for his first year. Decals after,
though, are great!

I like Krylon, but we used Rustoleum products with equal success. It's a
good idea to stick with a single brand, though, as mixing brands can
sometimes cause crackling, especially with the clear coat.

Spray a very light coat -- a dusting really -- of the (wood) primer. You
should still be able to see the wood grain through the coat. Wait five or
ten minutes and spray another coat just like the first one. Another wait,
another coat, and the wood grain should be completely hidden. Let this
coat dry for about 30 minutes, and then lightly sand it with 320 or 400
grit. Don't go through the primer to the wood, just sand the primer. If
you do sand too deeply, shoot another coat and sand again. You want a
smooth finish of primer.

Dust it off, and shoot the first color coat. Resist the temptation to
shoot a heavy coat, trying to go for the glossy look. Again, you should
be able to see 50 to 20% of the primer through the first coat of color.
Again 5-10 minutes wait, and shoot coat number two. This coat should
just about completely color the car; not much if any primer still
showing. Too light is better than too heavy. If much primer is still
showing after coat two, wait your 5-10 and do another.

By the way, other than after the final primer coat and now, the waits
between coats should be only five to twenty minutes max, just until the
paint is dry to the touch. If you wait too long, overnight for example,
you increase the risk of crackling the paint.

For a really smooth look, let it dry 30 minutes to an hour this time, and
then sand very lightly using 600 grit wet-or-dry paper with just a drop
or two of water to keep it wet. Wipe off the slurry with a slightly damp
rag. An old T-shirt is perfect.

The condition of the surface at this point should be baby smooth, with
maybe a few very small spots of primer showing. Shoot the final color
coat. This coat should be *just heavy enough* to wet (not soak) the
entire surface. Be sure to do the bottom first and then the top.

After the final color coat, your son will probably be pleased as punch
with his finish. If so, I'd say you're done. If he really wants to go for
the extra-fancy-super-high-gloss look, he can add a coat or two of clear.
However, this introduces the greatest risk of crackling, especially if
any of the previous coats have been too heavy, or if the clear is applied
too heavy. The clear should be applied just like the final coat of color.

Good luck! These are some good memories.

Jim

Finally, a question I can speak with authority about. You certainly
aren't the first dad to "get into" building a pinecar. The parents
always build the cars for the younger boys, and some boys never get to
build a car because Dad can't let go. My son and I built 4 cars
including one that earned best looking AND fastest out of 84 entries,
and another that was fastest out of 30 entries so far. Our district
race is next week and we'll see how it stacks up there. He built this
last car himself, but I couldn't resist coaching him every step of the
way. Now that the credentials and bragging are out of the way, your
questions:

1. Dried paint is very light; don't sweat it. Go to Walmart and buy
a bag of split shot fishing weights. Take the weights and your
cordless drill with you to the race. They'll have a scale set up
where you can adjust the weight of the car until you get it right. If
the car's too heavy, drill holes in the bottom until it's right. If
it's not 5.0, drill holes and force the split shot into them until
it's over 5.0, then back down.

2. You didn't hurt anything. You'll just seal it with paint.

3. Get some finer sandpaper. About 320 grit or 400. The first 3
coats or so, sand until the bare wood begins to peek through. Don't
worry about how the car looks for the first several coats. What
you're doing is filling in the coarse grain of the pine with paint and
sanding down the ridges. But your'll never get the finish you're
looking for with a brush-on paint. It's not too late to switch to
Krylon spray primer, then Krylon gloss enamel for the final coat. The
primer builds up well to create a smooth surface. The enamel dries to
a real nice finish. They both dry really fast, so you can sand and
paint 2 or more coats per day, one before work, and one at night.
Keep priming and sanding until you can't see the ridges of the grain
anymore. Then put about 3 or 4 light coats of the final color on
without sanding between. These can go on as little as an hour apart.

4. The spray-on clear coat adds a nice shine, but it doesn't make it
look like it's dipped in plastic. Put it on over the decals to hold
the edges down.

5. You didn't ask for this one, but I'll pass it along anyway. Get
some jeweler's rouge and a felt wheel for your Dremel Tool. (You do
have a Dremel Tool, don't you? If not, this is the perfect excuse to
get one.) Chuck the axles up in your drill and let your boy turn it
slowly while you polish the axle with the dremel. Makes mirror
finish on the axle that's really fast. If you remove so much metal
with sanding & polishing that the axle diameter is a little smaller
where the wheel runs, that's even better.



Good Luck
DonkeyHody




(usenetdg) wrote in message . com...
I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
Following common sense and information widely available on the net, I
think my son and I have a good car. It's got a curvy wedge shape,
we've weighted it pretty good so that it's near the maximum allowed,
the center of gravity is about an inch in front of the rear axles,
we've deburred and polished the axles so that the wheels spin for a
long time on them, even unlubed...

But now I'm feeling a bit loaded down at what should be a simple step
- painting the car.

We bought some yellow and red brush-on oil-based enamel. We put a
first coat on the car and it looked kind of splotchy. Sanded it with
200-grit sandpaper, and it really looked bad. Then another coat of
enamel. That made it shinier, but still didn't look too good.

Okay, here come the questions:

1. How much paint can we get away with without making the car too
heavy? The unpainted car, weighed along with a plastic bag containing
the axles and wheels, weighed 4.90 ounces on the scale at the post
office. We are brushing the enamel on. We're not slobbering it on
thick enough for runs and drips, but we're not finessing it as nicely
as we could either.

2. We didn't "seal" or "prime" the car before painting. How bad is
this? However, we DID heat the car up in a 200 degree oven for about
15 minutes before painting, figuring that would chase a lot of the
moisture out of the wood, and that the first coat of paint would
"seal" that moisture from coming back in.

3. What is a "right" way to sand? As I said, the sanding after the
first coat of paint, using quite a bit of pressure and 200-grit paper,
really made the thing look bad.

4. We bought a spray-on lacquer to use as a final coat. How shiny
will this make the car? And should we apply this AFTER applying the
decals?

5. For next year - should we have gone with spray-on paint rather than
brush-on?

I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

I know you asked for finishing advice, but I can't resist!
(I had quite a few winners in my day P)

Most rules allow graphite lubricant (usually used for locks, etc)
on the axles - use it!

I always made the car a bit under weight, then brought along some
plumber's putty to get it RIGHT up to weight by the judge's scale.

Happy racing!

--
Keith Barrette
AIM: Keith020
http://keithbarrette.net/

My boys have walked away with a number if high place finishes as well
as awards for best design or best paint job. Here's what we do:

1. Drill a hole in the back of the car running the length of the car
(but not all the way to the front). The actual length depends on how
much material you plan to remove from the car. If you are going to
remove a lot then two holes might be appropriate. The drill bit must
be slightly larger than the cylindrical weights that you can purchase
at hobby shops or the Scout shop.

2. Cut new axle slots so that they are parallel to each other and
hopefully perpendicular to the car. An alternative to this is to just
drill a new hole in the side of the "top" of the car (the bottom
becomes the top) for an axle. Then drill out a hold where the pointy
end of the nail will be. That way the judges can see that you used
the nail and not a solid axle.

3. Cut the car to shape, then put a drywall screw in the bottom of the
car. This is used to hold on to the car while painting. It also give
you something to suspend the car from while it is drying.

4. Sand up to 220 grit.

5. Spray with primer using light coats.

6. Sand with 300 grit and repeat steps 5 & 6 until you have a smooth,
paintable surface. We usually put on 2 to 3 coats of primer before we
have an acceptable surface.

7. Clean the surface.

8. Paint. (We buy our final finish paint from the hobby shop)

9. Assemble wheels/axles and lube. If you get some graphite on your
shiny new finish it can be taken off with a small amount of car wax.

10. Install weight as necessary. You can plug the opening for the
weight in the back but we usually leave it open. I squirt a bit of
caulk into the hole before the weight is installed to keep the weight
from shifting.

Be sure you read the rules that your Pack uses. I broke our car while
trying to cut the car. So I replaced it with a block of wood from a
scrap piece of 2x4. That resulted in two problems. 1) The 2x4 was
much more dense than the wood that came in the box so I ended up with
a car that was almost hollow underneath. 2) we were disqualified
because the rules vaguely stated that we had to use what came in the
box.
--
Jim


(usenetdg) wrote in message . com...
I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
Following common sense and information widely available on the net, I
think my son and I have a good car. It's got a curvy wedge shape,
we've weighted it pretty good so that it's near the maximum allowed,
the center of gravity is about an inch in front of the rear axles,
we've deburred and polished the axles so that the wheels spin for a
long time on them, even unlubed...

But now I'm feeling a bit loaded down at what should be a simple step
- painting the car.

We bought some yellow and red brush-on oil-based enamel. We put a
first coat on the car and it looked kind of splotchy. Sanded it with
200-grit sandpaper, and it really looked bad. Then another coat of
enamel. That made it shinier, but still didn't look too good.

Okay, here come the questions:

1. How much paint can we get away with without making the car too
heavy? The unpainted car, weighed along with a plastic bag containing
the axles and wheels, weighed 4.90 ounces on the scale at the post
office. We are brushing the enamel on. We're not slobbering it on
thick enough for runs and drips, but we're not finessing it as nicely
as we could either.

2. We didn't "seal" or "prime" the car before painting. How bad is
this? However, we DID heat the car up in a 200 degree oven for about
15 minutes before painting, figuring that would chase a lot of the
moisture out of the wood, and that the first coat of paint would
"seal" that moisture from coming back in.

3. What is a "right" way to sand? As I said, the sanding after the
first coat of paint, using quite a bit of pressure and 200-grit paper,
really made the thing look bad.

4. We bought a spray-on lacquer to use as a final coat. How shiny
will this make the car? And should we apply this AFTER applying the
decals?

5. For next year - should we have gone with spray-on paint rather than
brush-on?

I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

Sanding sealer and lots of it untill the wood is flat and smooth.
Then one extra coat of sealer for good measure.
A slick finish is the result of work done before the final color coat goes
on.

I have found a very good clear water based sanding sealer that dries fast.
It is "Endro" made by these people:
http://www.compliantspraysystems.com...o_coatings.htm
I use it to seal pool cues.

William Lee


(usenetdg) wrote in message
. com...
I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
Following common sense and information widely available on the net, I
think my son and I have a good car. It's got a curvy wedge shape,
we've weighted it pretty good so that it's near the maximum allowed,
the center of gravity is about an inch in front of the rear axles,
we've deburred and polished the axles so that the wheels spin for a
long time on them, even unlubed...

But now I'm feeling a bit loaded down at what should be a simple step
- painting the car.

We bought some yellow and red brush-on oil-based enamel. We put a
first coat on the car and it looked kind of splotchy. Sanded it with
200-grit sandpaper, and it really looked bad. Then another coat of
enamel. That made it shinier, but still didn't look too good.

Okay, here come the questions:

1. How much paint can we get away with without making the car too
heavy? The unpainted car, weighed along with a plastic bag containing
the axles and wheels, weighed 4.90 ounces on the scale at the post
office. We are brushing the enamel on. We're not slobbering it on
thick enough for runs and drips, but we're not finessing it as nicely
as we could either.

2. We didn't "seal" or "prime" the car before painting. How bad is
this? However, we DID heat the car up in a 200 degree oven for about
15 minutes before painting, figuring that would chase a lot of the
moisture out of the wood, and that the first coat of paint would
"seal" that moisture from coming back in.

3. What is a "right" way to sand? As I said, the sanding after the
first coat of paint, using quite a bit of pressure and 200-grit paper,
really made the thing look bad.

4. We bought a spray-on lacquer to use as a final coat. How shiny
will this make the car? And should we apply this AFTER applying the
decals?

5. For next year - should we have gone with spray-on paint rather than
brush-on?

I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

It is not his project, it is not your project, it is a "Father-Son project.
work with him, let him work with you. The good results are in the time
spent, not speed of car.

"Old Cubmaster"

"usenetdg" wrote in message
om...
I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
Following common sense and information widely available on the net, I
think my son and I have a good car. It's got a curvy wedge shape,
we've weighted it pretty good so that it's near the maximum allowed,
the center of gravity is about an inch in front of the rear axles,
we've deburred and polished the axles so that the wheels spin for a
long time on them, even unlubed...

But now I'm feeling a bit loaded down at what should be a simple step
- painting the car.

We bought some yellow and red brush-on oil-based enamel. We put a
first coat on the car and it looked kind of splotchy. Sanded it with
200-grit sandpaper, and it really looked bad. Then another coat of
enamel. That made it shinier, but still didn't look too good.

Okay, here come the questions:

1. How much paint can we get away with without making the car too
heavy? The unpainted car, weighed along with a plastic bag containing
the axles and wheels, weighed 4.90 ounces on the scale at the post
office. We are brushing the enamel on. We're not slobbering it on
thick enough for runs and drips, but we're not finessing it as nicely
as we could either.

2. We didn't "seal" or "prime" the car before painting. How bad is
this? However, we DID heat the car up in a 200 degree oven for about
15 minutes before painting, figuring that would chase a lot of the
moisture out of the wood, and that the first coat of paint would
"seal" that moisture from coming back in.

3. What is a "right" way to sand? As I said, the sanding after the
first coat of paint, using quite a bit of pressure and 200-grit paper,
really made the thing look bad.

4. We bought a spray-on lacquer to use as a final coat. How shiny
will this make the car? And should we apply this AFTER applying the
decals?

5. For next year - should we have gone with spray-on paint rather than
brush-on?

I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:22:32 GMT, Jim Wilson
wrote:

usenetdg wrote...some questions about finishing the car.

Talk to Silvan about aerodynamic shapes for Pinewood Derby cars. ;^)

Barry

I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
....
I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

You have a couple of replies that mention the nails and nail slots in the
block. Be sure that you know the rules of your pack and district race (if
your district runs a race) regarding these modifications. Our district race
is coming up soon and any car with re-drilled axle slots will not be allowed
to win. (I will never prevent a scout from at least running his car down
the track, since the parent is almost always the reason the car is ruled
ineligible.)

Ken

On 2004/2/23 5:45 PM, "Ed Ahern" wrote:

It is not his project, it is not your project, it is a "Father-Son project.
work with him, let him work with you. The good results are in the time
spent, not speed of car.

Right on - however, it can be a good learning opportunity where the cub
learns from Mom/Dad and then applies the lessons himself. At the same time,
provide guidance and expert opinion is not the same as doing the work for
the scout.

We are in the suburbs of Motown and many of our parents work at the car
companies, including a few who work in the design staff or model making
groups. Some of our Pinewood Derby cars would look fine on the floor of a
car show and I am sure that some of them have been in the wind tunnel. What
we did to deal with this is to have a parents "no holds barred" competition.
Those parents who just had to show off could compete among themselves at the
same time as having an enjoyable learning experience with their sons. BTW -
none of the "show cars" won the actual races.


--
Bob Haar
BSA T-188, Rochester Hills, MI
District Advancement Committee, Ojibwa District, Clinton Valley Council

Jim Wilson wrote:

spray it. At that age, his little hands couldn't hold down a spray can
button very well, but this was easily remedied with one of those cheap
aftermarket gun-like squeeze handles.

A definite.

Sand the bare wood to 180 or 220 grit. Use a light touch and a lot of
back-and-forth strokes with the grain. Start with 60 or 80 grit, and

If you have a lot of grainy patches and tool marks that are too difficult to
sand out, one handy dandy trick that worked out perfectly was Bondo glazing
putty. The smoother the underlying surface, the smoother the paint.

too heavy. The clear should be applied just like the final coat of color.

Good luck! These are some good memories.

Good luck from me as well, and a final piece of advice: buy fresh new paint,
and make sure the paint, the car and the air are all well into the
acceptable temperature range before spraying it.

I still don't know exactly what caused our finishing fiasco, but it was
ugly. The paint never cured, and it wiped off with little effort. We
ended up brushing it after all.

It took second in the Pack in speed though. Not too shabby.

Some other tips:

If you have a drill press, use it to drill out the axle grooves before you
do anything to the block of wood, while it's still square. Boring out
these holes perfectly perpendicular with a machine saves cracked bodies and
crooked axles later.

The car that wins is almost always one that weighs 5.0 ounces or just weesny
bit more. Due to the nature of digital scales, you can produce a car that
weighs 5.004 or some such and still have it come in at 5.0 on the scale.
Toward that end, we like to make the car too heavy on purpose, then drill
out some weight a bit at a time on race day until it comes in legal. (Then
after that, DON'T SO MUCH AS BREATHE ON IT.)

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

In article ,
B a r r y wrote:

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:22:32 GMT, Jim Wilson
wrote:

usenetdg wrote...some questions about finishing the car.

Talk to Silvan about aerodynamic shapes for Pinewood Derby cars. ;^)

Barry

http://www.fastpine.com/?source=google

http://members.aol.com/randywoo/pine/

http://win-edge.com/PinewoodDerby.shtml

http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/pinewood.html

http://www.simplyweb.net/bosworth/

http://www.pinewoodpro.com/

http://www.raceview.com/

http://www.pinewoodderbytips.com/

That's enough...lots of tips and stuff on painting and other things..
--
Thanks,

Ham

Ken Johnson wrote:

your district runs a race) regarding these modifications. Our district
race is coming up soon and any car with re-drilled axle slots will not be
allowed to win.

I'm not talking about re-drilling the slot, just using a drill bit to pave
the way through for the nail, removing a tiny bit of material from inside
the slot itself. Nothing sucks worse than spending umpty hours on a car,
then having the fibers compress and split when you drive the nails in.
It's also much harder to get them in straight when the car is full of
curves than when it's a block of wood.

I don't think even our District people would complain about that practice,
but I could be wrong.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

For my son's car. We use about 3 coats of sanding sealer for a base. Then
we brushes on a couple of coats of water based acrylic paint, followed by a
gloss clear coat. Lightly sanding between the coats. I let my son do most
of the work on his car.

For the Adult Class, I use about 5 coats of sanding sealer for a base. Then
I apply 2 coats of spray enamel. I have posted some pics at
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking newsgroup.

Randy

"usenetdg" wrote in message
om...
I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
Following common sense and information widely available on the net, I
think my son and I have a good car. It's got a curvy wedge shape,
we've weighted it pretty good so that it's near the maximum allowed,
the center of gravity is about an inch in front of the rear axles,
we've deburred and polished the axles so that the wheels spin for a
long time on them, even unlubed...

But now I'm feeling a bit loaded down at what should be a simple step
- painting the car.

We bought some yellow and red brush-on oil-based enamel. We put a
first coat on the car and it looked kind of splotchy. Sanded it with
200-grit sandpaper, and it really looked bad. Then another coat of
enamel. That made it shinier, but still didn't look too good.

Okay, here come the questions:

1. How much paint can we get away with without making the car too
heavy? The unpainted car, weighed along with a plastic bag containing
the axles and wheels, weighed 4.90 ounces on the scale at the post
office. We are brushing the enamel on. We're not slobbering it on
thick enough for runs and drips, but we're not finessing it as nicely
as we could either.

2. We didn't "seal" or "prime" the car before painting. How bad is
this? However, we DID heat the car up in a 200 degree oven for about
15 minutes before painting, figuring that would chase a lot of the
moisture out of the wood, and that the first coat of paint would
"seal" that moisture from coming back in.

3. What is a "right" way to sand? As I said, the sanding after the
first coat of paint, using quite a bit of pressure and 200-grit paper,
really made the thing look bad.

4. We bought a spray-on lacquer to use as a final coat. How shiny
will this make the car? And should we apply this AFTER applying the
decals?

5. For next year - should we have gone with spray-on paint rather than
brush-on?

I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

Check with your particular Pack. Many will allow multiple weigh-ins.

Now you don't care how heavy your car is in an absolute sense. You
only want it to be just legal according to the scale AT THE RACE.

If multiple weigh-ins are allowed, make the care heavy. Weigh it,
step outside with a drill and remove a little, weigh it, remove a
little more .... repeat until just barely legal (according to this
particular scale).

I've seen Packs that use regular old postal scales (say a 5%
measurement) and one Pack that usesd a lab balance (absolute measure
to much better than a milligram).

By the way, paint may help a car look cool, but it generally doesn't
make a car fast. Though I've sometimes wondered if putting
graphite-embedded paint would help the around the axles. (Such paint
is used for slides on farm gravity wagons.) Dang, did I wonder that
out loud? Another "trade secret" bites the dust.


Good luck racing!


hex
-30-






(usenetdg) wrote in message . com...
I've got my first-ever Pinewood Derby coming up in a few weeks.
Following common sense and information widely available on the net, I
think my son and I have a good car. It's got a curvy wedge shape,
we've weighted it pretty good so that it's near the maximum allowed,
the center of gravity is about an inch in front of the rear axles,
we've deburred and polished the axles so that the wheels spin for a
long time on them, even unlubed...

But now I'm feeling a bit loaded down at what should be a simple step
- painting the car.

We bought some yellow and red brush-on oil-based enamel. We put a
first coat on the car and it looked kind of splotchy. Sanded it with
200-grit sandpaper, and it really looked bad. Then another coat of
enamel. That made it shinier, but still didn't look too good.

Okay, here come the questions:

1. How much paint can we get away with without making the car too
heavy? The unpainted car, weighed along with a plastic bag containing
the axles and wheels, weighed 4.90 ounces on the scale at the post
office. We are brushing the enamel on. We're not slobbering it on
thick enough for runs and drips, but we're not finessing it as nicely
as we could either.

2. We didn't "seal" or "prime" the car before painting. How bad is
this? However, we DID heat the car up in a 200 degree oven for about
15 minutes before painting, figuring that would chase a lot of the
moisture out of the wood, and that the first coat of paint would
"seal" that moisture from coming back in.

3. What is a "right" way to sand? As I said, the sanding after the
first coat of paint, using quite a bit of pressure and 200-grit paper,
really made the thing look bad.

4. We bought a spray-on lacquer to use as a final coat. How shiny
will this make the car? And should we apply this AFTER applying the
decals?

5. For next year - should we have gone with spray-on paint rather than
brush-on?

I have gone from dreading this project to being "into it" enough that
I've had to remind myself frequently that it is my son's endeavor, not
mine. I look forward to hearing some tips from a few voices of
experience.

hex wrote:
If multiple weigh-ins are allowed, make the care heavy. Weigh it,
step outside with a drill and remove a little, weigh it, remove a
little more .... repeat until just barely legal (according to this
particular scale).

I've done my share of drilling to get derby cars under the weight limit,
but if possible, I recommend that you avoid this technique. It can damage
both the finish and the wheel alignment.

Another possibility is to use small wood screws for the last bit of weight.
Then remove one screw at a time until you're under the weight limit.
--
Darin McGrew, , http://www.TheRallyeClub.org/
A gimmick car rallye is not a race, but a fun puzzle testing your
ability to follow instructions. Upcoming gimmick car rallye in
Silicon Valley: Spring Break (Saturday, March 6)

I'd like to thank the many who offered great suggestions in this
thread, to which I'd originally posted a few weeks ago. The car we
made wasn't great, but we learned a few "what not to do" things for
next year.

The car is about to be weighed and impounded. Last night, I put the
wheels on. I was really disappointed.

The big problem is that the car pulls sharply to the left. In fact,
when pushed (i.e., not using gravity), it winds up going in a circle
with a 10-12 foot radius!

I had put glue in the axle slots before putting the axles in, so I
didn't want to mess things up worse by removing the axles. I tried
pushing the front wheels a bit so as to bend the front axles to
straighten the car out, and that may have helped a bit.

What is the best way to assure straight alignment next year? And any
suggested alignment fixes for this year? I don't want to tear the
axles out. Both front wheels have (guessing) 1/16 to 1/8 an inch of
space between them and the body.

The other issue is wheel spin. I read somewhere that well-turned
axles, properly polished and lubed with plenty of graphite/moly,
should cause the wheels to spin for 20-30 seconds freely. I doubt
ours spin for much more than 10 seconds. I have added PLENTY of
graphite!

Our bottom line is we had fun working together on this (with me doing
98% of the work - my son is barely 7 - but he was watching and we were
talking the whole time). But given how much research I did on doing
things right, I wish we'd attained better results.

Before you do anything else to next years block of pine, use a drill
press to drill your axle holes in the block. If your rules require
you to use the BSA slots, drill pilot holes in the slots to guide the
axle as you insert it. After you're done, you can shape it any way you
want, and your axle slots will be true to the (now nonexistant) sides
of the block.

I'm not sure I have a good fix in mind for this year's axle problem.
Maybe you could use a drill press with the bottom of the car clamped
to a 90 degree fence of some sort. That might work if the bottom were
still flat, but you'd be risking some pretty bad toe-in and toe-out if
the sides of the car aren't square any more.

Good luck,
Marcus


(usenetdg) wrote in message . com...
I'd like to thank the many who offered great suggestions in this
thread, to which I'd originally posted a few weeks ago. The car we
made wasn't great, but we learned a few "what not to do" things for
next year.

The car is about to be weighed and impounded. Last night, I put the
wheels on. I was really disappointed.

The big problem is that the car pulls sharply to the left. In fact,
when pushed (i.e., not using gravity), it winds up going in a circle
with a 10-12 foot radius!

I had put glue in the axle slots before putting the axles in, so I
didn't want to mess things up worse by removing the axles. I tried
pushing the front wheels a bit so as to bend the front axles to
straighten the car out, and that may have helped a bit.

What is the best way to assure straight alignment next year? And any
suggested alignment fixes for this year? I don't want to tear the
axles out. Both front wheels have (guessing) 1/16 to 1/8 an inch of
space between them and the body.

The other issue is wheel spin. I read somewhere that well-turned
axles, properly polished and lubed with plenty of graphite/moly,
should cause the wheels to spin for 20-30 seconds freely. I doubt
ours spin for much more than 10 seconds. I have added PLENTY of
graphite!

Our bottom line is we had fun working together on this (with me doing
98% of the work - my son is barely 7 - but he was watching and we were
talking the whole time). But given how much research I did on doing
things right, I wish we'd attained better results.

When my kid was in the pinewood derby, the "axles" were nails. We chucked
the point of the nail in an electric drill and spun it against a very fine
file to smooth the shank where the wheel spins. Made a world of difference.
Got that from an old machinist where I worked at the time.
"usenetdg" wrote in message
om...
I'd like to thank the many who offered great suggestions in this
thread, to which I'd originally posted a few weeks ago. The car we
made wasn't great, but we learned a few "what not to do" things for
next year.

The car is about to be weighed and impounded. Last night, I put the
wheels on. I was really disappointed.

The big problem is that the car pulls sharply to the left. In fact,
when pushed (i.e., not using gravity), it winds up going in a circle
with a 10-12 foot radius!

I had put glue in the axle slots before putting the axles in, so I
didn't want to mess things up worse by removing the axles. I tried
pushing the front wheels a bit so as to bend the front axles to
straighten the car out, and that may have helped a bit.

What is the best way to assure straight alignment next year? And any
suggested alignment fixes for this year? I don't want to tear the
axles out. Both front wheels have (guessing) 1/16 to 1/8 an inch of
space between them and the body.

The other issue is wheel spin. I read somewhere that well-turned
axles, properly polished and lubed with plenty of graphite/moly,
should cause the wheels to spin for 20-30 seconds freely. I doubt
ours spin for much more than 10 seconds. I have added PLENTY of
graphite!

Our bottom line is we had fun working together on this (with me doing
98% of the work - my son is barely 7 - but he was watching and we were
talking the whole time). But given how much research I did on doing
things right, I wish we'd attained better results.

What is the purpose of the pinewood derby? Is it to see who's dad has the
best tools? Are the kids allowed to do anything to the cars?

Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in lFs2c.32460$Rb2.29173
@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com:

What is the purpose of the pinewood derby? Is it to see who's dad has the
best tools? Are the kids allowed to do anything to the cars?

Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome


Right! Just like science fair projects. Boy how I remember those days!

Jerry

usenetdg wrote:

But given how much research I did on doing
things right, I wish we'd attained better results.

Do the rules permit building several and fielding the best one?

-- Mark

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
...

Do the rules permit building several and fielding the best one?

Your son can build as many cars as he likes (and as many as you can
afford!), but he's only allowed to enter one car. And our Pack does not
allow boys to "reuse" a car from previous years -- each entry must be newly
built for that year's race.

Serious answer in my next post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signs you are getting carried away with your ( or is it- your son's?)
pinewood derby car-

Your Cub Scout now knows how to measure in thousandths of an inch

You showed up the night before, when they were setting up the track-

You tried to calibrate your dietary scale….

If you bought a book about how to win at Pinewood Derby, you might be
getting carried away.

If you know that 5 ounces is 141.7 grams…

If you used a dial caliper or micrometer…

If you used a pocket calculator at any time-

If you used a heat lamp to cure anything

If you made a box just to carry the car in

If you bought more than one type of lubricant.

If you used a jewelers loupe- you might be getting carried away.

If you needed a metal turning lathe, because your wood lathe had too
much runout when dressing the wheels-

If you used cad software in the design stages….

You had to buy anything mail order, because neither the corner
hardware store nor the Scout Office had what you needed-

You sketched out a quick Gantt Chart-

If your Tiger Cub now knows how to wet sand….

If your budget went over 50 bucks….

If you had to run out to buy more rouge (polishing compound) ….

If you used a router at some point in the construction of your car,
you might have spent a bit too much time on it.

If you used a wind tunnel, you might be getting carried away with your
pine wood derby car.

~~~~~~~~~




On 6 Mar 2004 07:40:23 -0800, (usenetdg) wrote:

I'd like to thank the many who offered great suggestions in this
thread, to which I'd originally posted a few weeks ago. The car we
made wasn't great, but we learned a few "what not to do" things for
next year.

The car is about to be weighed and impounded. Last night, I put the
wheels on. I was really disappointed.

The big problem is that the car pulls sharply to the left. In fact,
when pushed (i.e., not using gravity), it winds up going in a circle
with a 10-12 foot radius!

I had put glue in the axle slots before putting the axles in, so I
didn't want to mess things up worse by removing the axles. I tried
pushing the front wheels a bit so as to bend the front axles to
straighten the car out, and that may have helped a bit.

What is the best way to assure straight alignment next year? And any
suggested alignment fixes for this year? I don't want to tear the
axles out. Both front wheels have (guessing) 1/16 to 1/8 an inch of
space between them and the body.

The other issue is wheel spin. I read somewhere that well-turned
axles, properly polished and lubed with plenty of graphite/moly,
should cause the wheels to spin for 20-30 seconds freely. I doubt
ours spin for much more than 10 seconds. I have added PLENTY of
graphite!

Our bottom line is we had fun working together on this (with me doing
98% of the work - my son is barely 7 - but he was watching and we were
talking the whole time). But given how much research I did on doing
things right, I wish we'd attained better results.

I think all that really matters is wheel alignment and smooth axles
and wheels. The areodynamics are way down the list. Weight is, of
course, assumed to be brought right up to the limit. Measure in
grams, (141.7 if memory serves) you will likely have better resolution
on your weigh scale.

Some say the weight needs to be toward the rear.

The wheels should have been on a day or two before the competition.
(I know, hindsite is 20-20). Roll the car down a sheet of plywood,
over and over, watch to see where it goes. Bend axles accordingly.

Yes, pull them suckers off, yank the axles anyway you can. re-drill,
and re-set, if you still have time. Otherwise, push, bend, whatever.
You will see a very very slow time at the rate of turning you have
now.

if you are re-drilling anyway, drop the car a few thou. You should
drill for the axles at around .218 up from the original bottom. That
will leave you the required 3/8 inch ground clearance. Use a #44
drill.

tighten up on the 1/16 to 1/8 space you talk about. Look at toe in,
are the wheels sitting stright up and down?

Our pack runs a Dad's class. Takes some of the heat off some of the
boys. Including mine, I am sorry to say I really want him to have a
fast car. He just wants one that looks cool. So we have compromised.

The dad's class turns out some pretty fancy stuff. The rules are.....
bent. Last year I got tromped by a guy that used wheels he turned off
a CNC lathe. Tall wheels. His frame was carbon fiber screwed to a
little bit of pine. He works for a race team here in Indy. His kid
had the winning car in the boys class. My wife asked his kid, how did
your car get such a nice paint job? He said, I don't know. Later I
heard the boy say he was not allowed to touch his car.

Sour grapes? Maybe a little, I came in second place with stock
wheels. And my kid lost to his kid.


This year, we are backing off a little, I am not building a car at
all, my kid is handling all body duties on his car, I will just handle
his axles and wheels.


Okay, maybe I need help!!!! But the boys will all have fun, anyway.

-Dan V.


On 6 Mar 2004 07:40:23 -0800, (usenetdg) wrote:

I'd like to thank the many who offered great suggestions in this
thread, to which I'd originally posted a few weeks ago. The car we
made wasn't great, but we learned a few "what not to do" things for
next year.

The car is about to be weighed and impounded. Last night, I put the
wheels on. I was really disappointed.

The big problem is that the car pulls sharply to the left. In fact,
when pushed (i.e., not using gravity), it winds up going in a circle
with a 10-12 foot radius!

I had put glue in the axle slots before putting the axles in, so I
didn't want to mess things up worse by removing the axles. I tried
pushing the front wheels a bit so as to bend the front axles to
straighten the car out, and that may have helped a bit.

What is the best way to assure straight alignment next year? And any
suggested alignment fixes for this year? I don't want to tear the
axles out. Both front wheels have (guessing) 1/16 to 1/8 an inch of
space between them and the body.

The other issue is wheel spin. I read somewhere that well-turned
axles, properly polished and lubed with plenty of graphite/moly,
should cause the wheels to spin for 20-30 seconds freely. I doubt
ours spin for much more than 10 seconds. I have added PLENTY of
graphite!

Our bottom line is we had fun working together on this (with me doing
98% of the work - my son is barely 7 - but he was watching and we were
talking the whole time). But given how much research I did on doing
things right, I wish we'd attained better results.

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:15:00 GMT, (Dan
Valleskey) wrote:

snip
The dad's class turns out some pretty fancy stuff. The rules are.....
bent. Last year I got tromped by a guy that used wheels he turned off
a CNC lathe. Tall wheels. His frame was carbon fiber screwed to a
little bit of pine. He works for a race team here in Indy. His kid
had the winning car in the boys class. My wife asked his kid, how did
your car get such a nice paint job? He said, I don't know. Later I
heard the boy say he was not allowed to touch his car.

Sour grapes? Maybe a little, I came in second place with stock
wheels. And my kid lost to his kid.


This year, we are backing off a little, I am not building a car at
all, my kid is handling all body duties on his car, I will just handle
his axles and wheels.


Okay, maybe I need help!!!! But the boys will all have fun, anyway.

-Dan V.

snip

I remember when I was a Scout and some of the kid's dads would do that
stuff. My dad wouldn't help me out at all.

He said I would learn better that way.

He was right, I learned very well that some "men" who consider
themselves to be "good fathers" are in actuality selfish children who
are teaching their kids that the rules don't apply to "them".

After the second or third such race, I never did pinewood derby again.
Why waste the time?

Boy, I'm amazed at how ****ed off I am 30 years later...maybe I need a
shrink, or a few hours in the shop.

Got an idea for a tongue & groove headboard...

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

What is the purpose of the pinewood derby? Is it to see who's dad has the
best tools? Are the kids allowed to do anything to the cars?

Yes and no.



--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Dan Valleskey wrote:

Serious answer in my next post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signs you are getting carried away with your ( or is it- your son's?)
pinewood derby car-

Your Cub Scout now knows how to measure in thousandths of an inch

Check.

You showed up the night before, when they were setting up the track-

Check. (But then again setting up the track is one of my jobs as a leader,
so I only get half a point here.)

You tried to calibrate your dietary scale….

Check. (My (son's) car came in at 5.0 oz. on the real scale too, so it must
have worked well enough, eh?)

If you bought a book about how to win at Pinewood Derby, you might be
getting carried away.

Negative. But when a guy who was moving on to Boy Scouts gave me a bunch of
those books, I read them.

If you know that 5 ounces is 141.7 grams…

I do know, so check.

If you used a dial caliper or micrometer…

Check.

If you used a pocket calculator at any time-

Negative.

If you used a heat lamp to cure anything

Half a point. The stuff I was trying to cure actually sloughed off.

If you made a box just to carry the car in

Half a point. I ran out of time to make the box. So I put it in a padded
box some lathe tools came in, which I filled with packing peanuts.

If you bought more than one type of lubricant.

Negative.

If you used a jewelers loupe- you might be getting carried away.

Negative. But I don't own one.

If you needed a metal turning lathe, because your wood lathe had too
much runout when dressing the wheels-

Negative.

If you used cad software in the design stages….

Negative.

You had to buy anything mail order, because neither the corner
hardware store nor the Scout Office had what you needed-

Negative.

You sketched out a quick Gantt Chart-

I don't even know what that is.

If your Tiger Cub now knows how to wet sand….

I didn't know they had invented Tiger cubs, so I never had one.

If your budget went over 50 bucks….

Negative.

If you had to run out to buy more rouge (polishing compound) ….

Check.

If you used a router at some point in the construction of your car,
you might have spent a bit too much time on it.

Negative.

If you used a wind tunnel, you might be getting carried away with your
pine wood derby car.

I would have if I had had one.

How do I score this thing. Am I hopeless?

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

My son and I just went though this and my beef is with the race format. My
son’s car was the fastest car based on time but he didn’t win a major
trophy because they use a point system based on race position instead of
time. My son’s car lost one close race against another fast car so it was
out of the running as far as points are concerned. There were 66 cars but
only 5 races with three lanes so each car only races 10 other cars. The
undefeated cars won trophies but they didn’t race against my sons car –
they only raced slower cars. The car that beat my sons won the third place
trophy but the combined time for my sons car beat the first place car by a
significant margin. My son’s car also had the first and second fastest
individual runs. I’m going to work the pack leaders next year to try to
refine the format so that the fastest car has a better chance of winning.
(does anyone know of any?)

We did win the “best paint job” certificate so I can tell you how to paint
it. The best part is that you can have your kid do as much as the work as
you or he wants to. We started with a spray can of sandable automotive
primer and put about 5 coats of primer on it and sanded between each coat
with steel wool. My son is a seven-year old so he was only good for about
15 minutes a day so this worked out well. He tended to dribble the paint a
little so we would sand of the dribbles with 220 paper. We bought a can of
lacquer spray paint for the finish coats and repeated the process with
multiple coats and steel wool. After about three coats it was done and we
left the final coat alone. The whole painting process took us about two
weeks to complete. The paint job is very shinny and smooth with no signs of
wood grain. Just about everyone who sees it seems to need to feel it to see
how smooth it is.

I can also give you a few tips on how to make your car fast. The slots have
to be aligned so the car goes straight - ours was aligned right out of the
box. You have to polish and lubricate your axles and wheels and you can
find directions on how to do this on the Internet. Our wheels would spin
for about 20 seconds when we were done. Perhaps the most important thing
besides making sure the car goes straight is to put the weight in the back
of the car. Remember that potential energy is equal to weight x height so
the higher up that weight is sitting on the ramp, the more potential energy
the car has. That extra potential energy is transferred to extra kinetic
energy on the flat section of the track. All of the finalists in this race
had their weight in the back. Another thing we did was to built the car to
be slightly overweight and then removed weight at the weigh in. Our entry
was exactly 5.00 ounces on the official scale.

Happy racing...

Scott


Mike Patterson wrote:

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:15:00 GMT, (Dan
Valleskey) wrote:

snip
The dad's class turns out some pretty fancy stuff. The rules are.....
bent. Last year I got tromped by a guy that used wheels he turned off
a CNC lathe. Tall wheels. His frame was carbon fiber screwed to a
little bit of pine. He works for a race team here in Indy. His kid
had the winning car in the boys class. My wife asked his kid, how did
your car get such a nice paint job? He said, I don't know. Later I
heard the boy say he was not allowed to touch his car.

Sour grapes? Maybe a little, I came in second place with stock
wheels. And my kid lost to his kid.


This year, we are backing off a little, I am not building a car at
all, my kid is handling all body duties on his car, I will just handle
his axles and wheels.


Okay, maybe I need help!!!! But the boys will all have fun, anyway.

-Dan V.

snip

I remember when I was a Scout and some of the kid's dads would do that
stuff. My dad wouldn't help me out at all.

He said I would learn better that way.

He was right, I learned very well that some "men" who consider
themselves to be "good fathers" are in actuality selfish children who
are teaching their kids that the rules don't apply to "them".

After the second or third such race, I never did pinewood derby again.
Why waste the time?

Boy, I'm amazed at how ****ed off I am 30 years later...maybe I need a
shrink, or a few hours in the shop.

Got an idea for a tongue & groove headboard...

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

"Scott Duncan" wrote in message

individual runs. I'm going to work the pack leaders next year to try to
refine the format so that the fastest car has a better chance of winning.
(does anyone know of any?)

"Refininf the format" is what happens when parents get involved in things
that are better left to the kids.

Should be like a horse race to me. In large futurities, there are ten heats
of ten horses (chosen by a draw), with the winner of each heat running in
the final race. Whoever crosses the finish line first in each race is the
"winner" of that race, elapsed time be damned ... that is the way "racing"
should be.

Anything else is politics, not racing.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/05/04

Swingman wrote:

"Scott Duncan" wrote in message

individual runs. I'm going to work the pack leaders next year to try to
refine the format so that the fastest car has a better chance of winning.
(does anyone know of any?)

"Refininf the format" is what happens when parents get involved in things
that are better left to the kids.

Should be like a horse race to me. In large futurities, there are ten heats
of ten horses (chosen by a draw), with the winner of each heat running in
the final race. Whoever crosses the finish line first in each race is the
"winner" of that race, elapsed time be damned ... that is the way "racing"
should be.

Anything else is politics, not racing.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/05/04

That’s pretty much the way the races were run before digital timers and
computers. Since this equipment has advanced, many packs have switched to time
based racing. Some even have an initial run to sort the cars so that faster cars
are racing faster cars and slower cars are racing slower cars. This benefits the
slow cars too, because the will win more heats since they are racing with other
slow cars. Randomly mixing the faster cars with the slower cars makes for
lopsided finishes and some kids going home with our finishing well in a single
heat. There were some pretty long faces at the end of the day at our race. On
the other hand, matching the cars beforehand makes for close, more exciting
finishes with a good chance that everyone will win at least one heat. With a
format like this, however, fastest combined time is the only metric that makes
sense for selecting the trophy winners.

My son will get another chance for a trophy in two weeks because his car has
moved on to race at the District level. Our pack selected the fastest car from
each den to race against the other packs.

Scott

"Scott Duncan" wrote in message ...

Swingman wrote:

Anything else is politics, not racing.

That's pretty much the way the races were run before digital timers and
computers. Since this equipment has advanced, many packs have switched to
time
based racing. Some even have an initial run to sort the cars so that
faster cars
are racing faster cars and slower cars are racing slower cars. This
benefits the
slow cars too, because the will win more heats since they are racing with
other
slow cars. Randomly mixing the faster cars with the slower cars makes for
lopsided finishes and some kids going home with our finishing well in a
single
heat. There were some pretty long faces at the end of the day at our race.

I guess I am just old fashioned, Scott.

Every race, as does life, has elements, like luck, bad or good, that make
things unfair ... just seems like it would be a good time for a kid to learn
that.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/05/04

(Dan
Valleskey) wrote:

snip
The dad's class turns out some pretty fancy stuff. The rules are.....
bent. Last year I got tromped by a guy that used wheels he turned off
a CNC lathe. Tall wheels. His frame was carbon fiber screwed to a
little bit of pine. He works for a race team here in Indy. His kid
had the winning car in the boys class. My wife asked his kid, how did
your car get such a nice paint job? He said, I don't know. Later I
heard the boy say he was not allowed to touch his car.

That is sad. He won the race but lost a lesson in life. The dad's ego is
more important than his son accomplishing anything. The rules should be
change so the kids build the cars under the supervision of the scout leader
and they not be take home where they can be "tampered" with.
Ed

Every race, as does life, has elements, like luck, bad or good, that make
things unfair ... just seems like it would be a good time for a kid to learn
that.


Well put – good point.

The flip side is that, we, as adults know that life isn’t fair and that hard
work doesn’t always pay off in the end. The question is then, at what point do
we teach this lesson to our kids?

Scott

"Scott Duncan" wrote in message


Every race, as does life, has elements, like luck, bad or good, that
make
things unfair ... just seems like it would be a good time for a kid to
learn
that.


Well put - good point.

The flip side is that, we, as adults know that life isn't fair and that
hard
work doesn't always pay off in the end. The question is then, at what
point do
we teach this lesson to our kids?

My formative years were on a farm in the 40's and 50's, so I doubt you would
be surprised to learn that I was raised that the sooner you learned to live
with life's disappointments, the better.

To me, that's one of those "tough choices" a responsible parent has to make,
and many don't seem want to want to face. When you get right down to it,
it's all in how you, the parent, approaches each challenge the kid faces,
and prepares them for it.

Lest you thing I'm just spouting off ... my youngest, 18, is a "special
needs" kid who has faced a lot of challenges in life thus far. I'd be lying
if I said there wasn't a lot of sadness involved as a parent, but our
biggest source of pride, and hope for the future, is in the _heart_ this kid
has shown. She garnered a 4.0 GPR last semester, in mainstream classes in a
large urban High School, and came up 80 places in her graduating class, to
graduate this coming summer in the top 50% of the class with an overall HS
GPR of 3.2 ... all of which got her an acting scholarship at the recognized
university of her choice.

To her, she is not "disabled" at all, she just knows she has to try harder
.... and does.

Being the oldest of my siblings, I agree it's a lot tougher raising a kid
today than what my parents had to face.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/05/04

Greetings and Salutations...

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 10:13:28 -0500, Mike Patterson
wrote:

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:15:00 GMT, (Dan
Valleskey) wrote:

snip
The dad's class turns out some pretty fancy stuff. The rules are.....
bent. Last year I got tromped by a guy that used wheels he turned off
a CNC lathe. Tall wheels. His frame was carbon fiber screwed to a
little bit of pine. He works for a race team here in Indy. His kid
had the winning car in the boys class. My wife asked his kid, how did
your car get such a nice paint job? He said, I don't know. Later I
heard the boy say he was not allowed to touch his car.

Sour grapes? Maybe a little, I came in second place with stock
wheels. And my kid lost to his kid.


This year, we are backing off a little, I am not building a car at
all, my kid is handling all body duties on his car, I will just handle
his axles and wheels.


Okay, maybe I need help!!!! But the boys will all have fun, anyway.

-Dan V.

snip

I remember when I was a Scout and some of the kid's dads would do that
stuff. My dad wouldn't help me out at all.

He said I would learn better that way.

He was right, I learned very well that some "men" who consider
themselves to be "good fathers" are in actuality selfish children who
are teaching their kids that the rules don't apply to "them".

Yea...I feel your pain there. My parents would point me in
the direction of where to FIND the information I needed to do a
project, It was typically a VERY rare occasion when they would do any
significant work on my project. It always annoyed me NO end
that other kid's parents would do 90% or more of the project...even
if the kid wanted to work on it.
I think, though, in the long run I was the real winner,
as I ended up a lot more self-sufficient, and resourceful than many
of these other kids.

After the second or third such race, I never did pinewood derby again.
Why waste the time?

Well, that is a hard question to answer.... One way that the
scout troops that my nephew is involved in deal with it is to
STRONGLY urge the parents to let their kids do the work...and they
have an unoffical "parents" catagory where the adults can run
their cars against each other. I know of one family down that way
where the dad has actually built a raceway of their own, to specs,
so they can tune their cars.
It has been my observation that the trick to speed is to
ensure that the wheels are straight on the body, so the car does
not scrape against the center guide. Friction is your enemy here,
and, it is amazing how quickly rubbing against that center line
will slow things down.

Boy, I'm amazed at how ****ed off I am 30 years later...maybe I need a
shrink, or a few hours in the shop.

Haw! It DOES seem that the injustices of youth burn all the
stronger in one's mind! I suppose it has to do with one's feeling
of how much control over one's life there is. As a kid, we are VERY
controlled...so since we can't do much about injustice, it is even
more annoying than when we are adults and CAN do something about it.
Good luck getting over it! I know that I have a few things that still
rankle (although my issues are more with School Science Fairs).

Got an idea for a tongue & groove headboard...

Good deal! Always nice to turn that energy to something
positive...I have been remiss myself in that...I have several projects
that are rotting away from neglect that I really need to get finished
up.
Dave Mundt

Yet in track races (people running) the "fastest" qualifiers make the
finals, not necessarily the heat winners. That identifies who is
fastest, not who had the slowest competitors.

John

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 10:53:02 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Scott Duncan" wrote in message

individual runs. I'm going to work the pack leaders next year to try to
refine the format so that the fastest car has a better chance of winning.
(does anyone know of any?)

"Refininf the format" is what happens when parents get involved in things
that are better left to the kids.

Should be like a horse race to me. In large futurities, there are ten heats
of ten horses (chosen by a draw), with the winner of each heat running in
the final race. Whoever crosses the finish line first in each race is the
"winner" of that race, elapsed time be damned ... that is the way "racing"
should be.

Anything else is politics, not racing.

"John Mc" wrote in message

Yet in track races (people running) the "fastest" qualifiers make the
finals, not necessarily the heat winners. That identifies who is
fastest, not who had the slowest competitors.

Not necessarily always the case. With horses, as with humans, the ability of
the competition often dictates the speed.In which the particular race was
run.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/05/04

But not true with inanimate objects such as Pinewood derby cars ;-)
Nothing more from me on this G

John

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:42:08 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"John Mc" wrote in message

Yet in track races (people running) the "fastest" qualifiers make the
finals, not necessarily the heat winners. That identifies who is
fastest, not who had the slowest competitors in a particular heat.

Not necessarily always the case. With horses, as with humans, the ability of
the competition often dictates the speed.In which the particular race was
run.

My wife asked his kid, how did
your car get such a nice paint job? He said, I don't know. Later I
heard the boy say he was not allowed to touch his car.

This is the problem with PWD. The dad is also living vicariously through the
kid...

It's easy to fix though...have an 'unlimited' class for dads. And/or have
the boys build the cars at regular den meetings. Have a special race for the
slowest car that crosses the finish line.

-John O