[Upscale]

Hey Swingman,

You know that picnic table I made based on your design? It's been sitting in
the side yard of the friend I gave it to and two of her neighbours are
inquiring about me building them one too. Working about a dozen hours a week
it took me about a month to build because I was experimenting along the way.
With a set design in mind and knowing exactly how to go about building more
of them, I can knock one off in a week.

I figure the first one cost me about $450 in material, but eliminating
original wastage, I should be able to cut that down to $400 or so. I was
wondering what I should charge total price including labour? Any ideas?

[Swingman]

"Upscale" wrote
Hey Swingman,

You know that picnic table I made based on your design? It's been sitting
in
the side yard of the friend I gave it to and two of her neighbours are
inquiring about me building them one too. Working about a dozen hours a
week
it took me about a month to build because I was experimenting along the
way.
With a set design in mind and knowing exactly how to go about building
more
of them, I can knock one off in a week.

I figure the first one cost me about $450 in material, but eliminating
original wastage, I should be able to cut that down to $400 or so. I was
wondering what I should charge total price including labour? Any ideas?

That's indeed a tough question! And, with that much time and materials
invested, I would first want to call it something other than a "picnic
table"!

Sorry, this is more of an art than something that can be easily quantified
with a formula, but, as a general rule of thumb for such projects, about 3
to 5 times material cost will generally put you in the ball park of what the
uninitiated consumer will actually expect to pay for a handcrafted piece.

Obviously someone more discerning, cognizant, and appreciative of the
craftsmanship and, hand wrought, unique nature of the piece would expect to
pay more.

In any event, by quoting on the high side of the above, or more, you will be
during yourself, and the friend you built it for, a favor. Simply put, if
you aren't desperate for the work, don't sell yourself short.

Let us know how it goes.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

[dpb]

On Jan 18, 9:07*am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Upscale" wrote
....
With a set design in mind and knowing exactly how to go about building
more of them, I can knock one off in a week.

I figure the first one cost me about $450 in material, but eliminating
original wastage, I should be able to cut that down to $400 or so. I was
wondering what I should charge total price including labour? Any ideas?

That's indeed a tough question! And, with that much time and materials
invested, I would first want to call it something other than a "picnic
table"!

Sorry, this is more of an art than something that can be easily quantified
with a formula, but, as a general rule of thumb for such projects, about 3
to 5 times material cost will generally put you in the ball park of what the
uninitiated consumer will actually expect to pay for a handcrafted piece.

Obviously someone more discerning, cognizant, and appreciative of the
craftsmanship and, hand wrought, unique nature of the piece would expect to
pay more.
....

To amplify somewhat from another viewpoint altho I haven't done custom
work for nearly 40 years now since I was a young pup out of school
trying to make some sideline cash...

My experience would indicate the average schmoe seeing something like
this will expect to pay what they would for a take-home-in-the-box pos
table from the local hardware store sidewalk clearance sale...

I'd also say it depends on whether the week is a 12-hr working week of
before or a solid "real" week to guesstimate on labor. What would you
be doing in that time otherwise--is it taking away from productive
time or is it simply making a little from a hobby? Do you intend it
as an entry to business or as simply a favor? And lastly, how will
you feel if you don't get the commission?

good luck on how ever it goes...

-duane

--

[mac davis[_5_]]

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:45:35 -0500, "Upscale" wrote:

Hey Swingman,

You know that picnic table I made based on your design? It's been sitting in
the side yard of the friend I gave it to and two of her neighbours are
inquiring about me building them one too. Working about a dozen hours a week
it took me about a month to build because I was experimenting along the way.
With a set design in mind and knowing exactly how to go about building more
of them, I can knock one off in a week.

I figure the first one cost me about $450 in material, but eliminating
original wastage, I should be able to cut that down to $400 or so. I was
wondering what I should charge total price including labour? Any ideas?

Well, I'm not Swing, but ya know I can't keep my mouth shut..

I'd figure that the 12 hours might be 16 and start there...
What's your time worth, depending on whether this is a profit or challenge type
project..

Whatever you think your time is worth, add at least another I'd ad another 40 to
50% to that for expenses like tool wear, electricity, blades, sandpaper, etc...

Bottom line for me is that I make an offer that I can't refuse and see how bad
they want the piece done..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

[Han]

"Upscale" wrote in
:

Hey Swingman,

You know that picnic table I made based on your design? It's been
sitting in the side yard of the friend I gave it to and two of her
neighbours are inquiring about me building them one too. Working about
a dozen hours a week it took me about a month to build because I was
experimenting along the way. With a set design in mind and knowing
exactly how to go about building more of them, I can knock one off in
a week.

I figure the first one cost me about $450 in material, but eliminating
original wastage, I should be able to cut that down to $400 or so. I
was wondering what I should charge total price including labour? Any
ideas?

Now I'm wondering whether you posted pictures ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[Ed Pawlowski]

"mac davis" wrote in message
I'd figure that the 12 hours might be 16 and start there...
What's your time worth, depending on whether this is a profit or challenge
type
project..

Whatever you think your time is worth, add at least another I'd ad another
40 to
50% to that for expenses like tool wear, electricity, blades, sandpaper,
etc...

Bottom line for me is that I make an offer that I can't refuse and see how
bad
they want the piece done..

Sounds about right. For me, this is a hobby. I'm either going to do it for
cost of materials because I want to do it for you, or I'm not going to work
for cheap. I don't want or need potential aggravation for $4 an hour.

[Flash Gordon]

Is there a picture online somewhere?

[Swingman]

"Flash Gordon" wrote
Is there a picture online somewhere?

The following picture was posted by Upscale on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking on September 14, 2008:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/TrestlePicnic.jpg

It was in my "pictures worth saving" file ... hope Upscale doesn't mind the
reposting link.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

[Upscale]

"dpb" wrote in message
With a set design in mind and knowing exactly how to go about building
more of them, I can knock one off in a week.

That's indeed a tough question! And, with that much time and materials
invested, I would first want to call it something other than a "picnic
table"!

Good point. I guess a little marketing savvy wouldn't hurt anything. How
about Mission Style Outdoor Dining Table?

this will expect to pay what they would for a take-home-in-the-box pos
table from the local hardware store sidewalk clearance sale...

Well, at the very least, this style of construction and type of table isn't
commonly available at any local hardware stores that I've seen.

before or a solid "real" week to guesstimate on labor. What would you
be doing in that time otherwise--is it taking away from productive
time or is it simply making a little from a hobby? Do you intend it
as an entry to business or as simply a favor? And lastly, how will
you feel if you don't get the commission?

Since I'd only be making them in the summertime, I'd otherwise probably be
drinking a few beer on a patio somewhere. And, it is a hobby, not a
business. If I wanted work, I'd do my regular job and be making more money
for it. It wouldn't bother me not getting the commission as realistically,
I'd only be doing it as a favour.

I've got to admit though, it would make me feel good knowing a number of
houses in a particular street were using something I'd built. Guess I've got
some thinking to do.

[Robatoy[_2_]]

On Jan 18, 5:23*pm, "Upscale" wrote:

I've got to admit though, it would make me feel good knowing a number of
houses in a particular street were using something I'd built. Guess I've got
some thinking to do.

This where we get back to not selling yourself short. When built to
your spec, those tables will be in demand.
Any schmuck can air-nail one of them puppies when made of discarded
skids.
I don't think that's your style.
Get some decent material, and keep track of what it REALLY costs you
to build one from proper materials.
The fact you have an opportunity to do that for somebody, is great. A
business model will appear.
How many times, Dave, have I heard: "Hell, *I* can get that shelf from
the Brick for 800 bucks!!"
That's when *I* quote them 2000 dollars. "Well, ****, it LOOKS like
cherry"...and all that rot.

I know where you live. You have a mix around you that WILL spend some
serious cash, and those who won't.
Hold out for a good buck. You will deserve it.

[Swingman]

"Upscale" wrote

That's indeed a tough question! And, with that much time and materials
invested, I would first want to call it something other than a "picnic
table"!

Good point. I guess a little marketing savvy wouldn't hurt anything. How
about Mission Style Outdoor Dining Table?

LOL ... can you get the word "elegant" in there somewhere?

"An elegant complement to that trendy new outdoor kitchen!"

... indeed!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

[[email protected]]

On Jan 18, 11:03 am, dpb wrote:
My experience would indicate the average schmoe seeing something like
this will expect to pay what they would for a take-home-in-the-box pos
table from the local hardware store sidewalk clearance sale...

You mean _less_ than the pos table on clearance.


-Kevin

[Rick Samuel[_2_]]

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Flash Gordon" wrote
Is there a picture online somewhere?

The following picture was posted by Upscale on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking on September 14, 2008:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/TrestlePicnic.jpg

It was in my "pictures worth saving" file ... hope Upscale doesn't mind
the reposting link.


Not my idea of a "picnic table" Looks great...er, elegant. Saving the pic,
also.

[dadiOH[_3_]]

Upscale wrote:
Hey Swingman,

You know that picnic table I made based on your design? It's been
sitting in the side yard of the friend I gave it to and two of her
neighbours are inquiring about me building them one too. Working
about a dozen hours a week it took me about a month to build because
I was experimenting along the way. With a set design in mind and
knowing exactly how to go about building more of them, I can knock
one off in a week.

I figure the first one cost me about $450 in material, but eliminating
original wastage, I should be able to cut that down to $400 or so. I
was wondering what I should charge total price including labour? Any
ideas?

These folks...
http://www.bar-stools-barstools.com/...nish-Green.htm

will sell you an 85" pine Mission Style Outdoor Dining Table for $647.40. A
69 incher is $602.16.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[Upscale]

"dadiOH" wrote in message news:CsYcl.12390
will sell you an 85" pine Mission Style Outdoor Dining Table for $647.40.
A
69 incher is $602.16.

Actually, those images are encouraging to me. My table is considerably more
substantial than anything there and it's made out of cedar, not pine. Too,
Canadian prices are unfortunately, usually higher than US prices. All things
in my favour should I decide to do this.

[Robatoy[_2_]]

On Jan 19, 10:26*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message news:CsYcl.12390
will sell you an 85" pine Mission Style Outdoor Dining Table for $647.40.

[Han]

Robatoy wrote in news:236c905f-b7f3-4a67-8910-
:

The reason cedar is so expensive, because we only have about a
bezillion acres of the stuff.
With more land and wood per capita than anywhere on this planet, why
does it cost so much money to buy a house?

The value of a house is what the next fool buyer wants to pay for it.
There is no better definition.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[Upscale]

"Robatoy" wrote in message
The reason cedar is so expensive, because we only have about a
bezillion acres of the stuff. With more land and wood per capita
than anywhere on this planet, why does it cost so much money

The knotty cedar I used was close to $2 a foot for the 2x6 eight foot stuff.
I briefly consider clear cedar with no knots until I learned that it was
three times the price. Didn't even bother to ask the price on redwood, much
less finding a local place that sold it. Either someone is making a gouging
profit on all our wood or there's dozens of outfits handling it, each adding
their mark-up before it hits the consumer store for little guys like me.

[Upscale]

"dpb" wrote in message
It changed the potential client base from primarily coworkers/
neighbors/acquaintances/etc. to strangers who didn't have expectations
of sugar plums.

You've made some good points. Since I live in an apartment and don't have a
regularly available space that I can do woodworking, it may be in my best
interest to wait until I find a suitable space to rent. As well as
satisfying my desire for a workshop, it would also contribute to the
possiblity of marketing some of the stuff I'd like to build.

Thanks

[Tom Watson]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:02:09 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:


ROTFL!

Since it seems like everyone agrees that property values have dropped
precipitously in the last months, I am happily awaiting my rebate
check on taxes paid on an over-valued property...

....waiting...


....still waiting...


....








Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

[Robatoy[_2_]]

On Jan 19, 9:02*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Han" wrote in message

...



"Swingman" wrote in
m:

The value of a house is what the next fool buyer wants to pay for it.
There is no better definition.

BZZZZTTT!!! ... The value of the house is dictated by your tax
appraisal district (IOW, what your neighbor's last sold for, or 10%
more than last year's appraisal, whichever is greater).

The real question is: Why do we put up with this ****?

Karl, with all due respect, the appraised value for tax purposes is a
nonsensical amount. *The exact amount doesn't matter at all, provided
that all properties in what you call the tax appraisal district are
evaluated in the same manner.

The district needs to add up all the appraised values, and also add up
all the moneys they will (expect to) spend that have to be raised from
the real estate taxes, and then divide one into the other. *That gives
the tax rate.

If everyone's home gets appraised at market value you will get a certain
tax rate. *If each property gets appraised for 1/10 its real market
value, the tax rate will have to be 10 times higher to raise the same
amount of money. It's that simple.

This is another one of those things that gets everyone's hackles up for
no reason whatsoever. *The only key is that everyone's property needs to
be appraised in the same manner and to the same standards. *The easiest
way is to make that evaluation have some relationship to "real" market
value.

ROTFL!

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

For a long time, in this city, taxes were determined by the frontage
of the property plus a formula based on 'replacement' value. They
decided to change that to a more equitable appraisal system... an
appraisal by a private company.
In several areas where the Lake curves, the frontage would be 100 feet
along the access road...and wedge out to 500 feet of beach. Multi
million dollar homes paying what 100 feet of frontage in town would
pay. The appraisal system changed that. somewhat. G One local fat-
cat had his property taxes raised from $ 4400 per year to $ 28,000. He
took it to court and his property was re-evaluated to jack up his
taxes to $ 33,000.

The thing that ****es me off in a huge way, is that on those appraisal
forms, you get to chose if you want your taxes to support the Catholic
schools, or the 'regular' schools. WTF?

[Ed Pawlowski]

"Han" wrote in message
If everyone's home gets appraised at market value you will get a certain
tax rate. If each property gets appraised for 1/10 its real market
value, the tax rate will have to be 10 times higher to raise the same
amount of money. It's that simple.

This is another one of those things that gets everyone's hackles up for
no reason whatsoever. The only key is that everyone's property needs to
be appraised in the same manner and to the same standards. The easiest
way is to make that evaluation have some relationship to "real" market
value.

True, but there is a flaw. Since many people don't understand how it
works, they assume that re-valuation means a tax increase. The local
government budget committee assures that your expectations are met, needed
or not.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 19, 6:27*pm, Robatoy wrote:

The thing that ****es me off in a huge way, is that on those appraisal
forms, you get to chose if you want your taxes to support the Catholic
schools, or the 'regular' schools. WTF?

Catholic schools and schoolboards are constitutional right in all
provinces and territories except Quebec and Newfoundland. It was part
of the deal that created confederation in 1867, when the French & the
Irish insisted on it. Newfoundland got rid of all its confessional
school boards in 1997 after a referendum (Every Protestant sect had
its own school board; there were even Salvation Army and Seventh Day
Adventist school boards). Quebec got rid of its catholic and
portestant scholl boards in 1998, replacing them with linguistic
school boards (French & English).

Luigi