The Professional Furniture Maker and The Hobbyist Furniture Maker

Got on a “watch videos of pro furniture makers showing you techniques”
kick and began noting how they do things versus how hobbyists do things.
While the end results may be similar, or In some cases identical, the
pro and the hobbyist are two distinctly different beasts.

Here’s the differences I’ve got down so far. Feel free to add those
you’ve discovered.

The pro makes his/her living from furniture making so Time is Money.

The hobbyist makes furniture for fun/ therapy so time isn’t all that
important. The money part of the equation may or may not be a factor.
=============================

The pro makes furniture for customers.

The hobbyist makes things for himself/herself or perhaps a spouse,
significant other, family member or for friends.
=============================

The pro is in the shallower part of the learning curve as far as
furniture making goes. The business side may be a different story.

The hobbyist Is in the steeper part of the learning curve for furniture
making but doesn’t have to worry about any business end.
=============================

The pro will spend semi-big bucks on a piece of equipment that will
significantly increase productivity (read make more money by increasing
productivity than spent on the equipment to do so). However, she/he is
less apt to succumb to impulse buying slick doo-dads and or forking over
money for a neat-o-spiral-cutting- filigree-making-laser guided tool or
machine.

The hobbyist “will make do with what he/she has” when it comes to big
ticket items and agonize for months over Brand A vs Brand B and the
hundred dollar difference between the price of the two “final
candidates”. YET - he/she will often buy hundreds and hundreds of
dollars of “look how pretty this thing is” and “that’s cool - I’m sure
I’ll find something to do with it” items.

(NOTE: The pro knows, or is acquainted with, a lot more woodworkers than
the typical hobbyist. As a result, the pro is far more apt to pick up
tools and equipment USED for less than half the price of NEW - and
they’ll be on the high end of the quality, fit & finish and capabilities
range. The pro seldom buys doo-dads - unless she/he knows the investment
will yield a good return - or thinks it will.)
=============================

The pro has developed a set of designs - four or five of the major
pieces of furniture - chair, table, cabinet, dresser etc. - with several
variations of each. He/she has a fairly clear mental image of what goes
where and how, and knows what the finished piece will look like because
he/she has made several of this item before.

The hobbyist hasn’t found a style and a set of proportions - yet. Since
each piece, for her/him, is unique and exists only as a semi-general/
semi-specific mental image, the details of the components are often
vague, coming into focus only as the parts are laid out, cut and set
next to each other.
=============================

The pro has made full scale templates of the major components of each of
his/her best sellers as well as a few personal favorites. Some of the
templates are designed to be used with a specific piece of machinery - a
shaper, router table, router, etc..

The hobbyist, if he/she is methodical, lays out the components of the
piece “on the bench”, right on the stock being used. Being uncertain if
his/her ideas will result in a finished piece that is worth doing again,
by the time dry fitting answers some of the “is this worth doing
again?”, parts have been shaped and dry fitted. At that point, making
good basic templates is gone since there may no longer be a flat face or
a square edge.
=============================

Once the wood is in the shop, the pro doesn’t see it in terms of dollars
per board foot. Its type, dimensions, color and grain become far more
important than its initial price. Cut-offs are waste, to be disposed
of.
Ironically, for internal “won’t show” parts a pro will spend time
getting the most parts out of a given board.

The hobbyist initially tries to utilize every square foot of each board
foot because $/bf, rather than grain direction and grain pattern, is
more important. Cut-offs are treasures to be stored away for some
future masterpiece. Hobbyists are Silas Marner when it comes to wood,
not so much because of the beauty of the wood, but rather all those
bucks spent on each board foot.
=============================

The pro will have thousands of board feet of wood in the shop or a shed,
much of it rough milled 4/4, 6/4, 8/4 and maybe some 12/4. The pro will
spend some time milling what she/he needs when needed, knowing that
properly milled stock is a key to parts that will fit together properly
later.

The hobbyist usually won’t have a lot of wood “just sitting around” in
racks and what he/she does have was probably bought already dimensioned
and sanded. Very little time will be spent even checking to see if a
board is flat, the edges square to the face and straight - UNTIL it
causes a problem or twelve later. Only then will awareness that wood
moves set in and stock preparation become important. Most stock will
enter the shop as 1/2 or 3/4 inch thickness.
=============================

The pro has developed an efficient “rough stock to finished piece”
procedure, making all the cuts a given set up/ operation will do on ALL
the parts that use this set up/operation. This not only saves time but
also eliminates or minimizes matching parts that don’t in fact match.
One chair or table leg that’s just a smidge shorter or longer than the
others will make a difference later.

The hobbyist is often an example of Brownian Motion - do this, do that
and then go back and do this again. The result can be “matching parts”
that don’t - in the worse case, a table with 16 and 7/16th inch legs
..=============================

The pro sands to 180, sometimes to 220.

The hobbyist sands to 400, sometimes to 1000 - wet/dry of course and may
continue on to 00000000 steel wool.
=============================

The pro settles on one or two finishes and stick with them for just
about everything but tints/stains to even out sapwood/heartwood
differences. The objective is to get a durable finish on the piece
that’s fast drying, low maintenance and looks nice. Returns and
refinishing them is a money loser so when a piece leaves the shop it
should never return.

The hobbyist has shelves and shelves of bottles, jars and cans of
shellac, varnish, lacquers, tung oil, linseed oil, boiled linseed oil,
walnut oil, teak oil, danish oil, poly and Bubba’s Secret Concoction
with a box full of foam brushes. He/she is willing to use a finish that
takes a week to dry between coats.
=============================

For most pros, furniture making is work, at times fun, but mainly work.

For most hobbyists, furniture making is fun, at times work, but mainly
fun.
=============================

charlie b

Well charlie Thats about it in a nutshell except you forgot one,
A hobbyist will use hand tools and cut hand dovetails etc,
A pro will say are you outa your feakin mind ??? and throw the switch on a
machine that does the same thing G
George
"charlie b" wrote in message
...
The Professional Furniture Maker and The Hobbyist Furniture Maker

Got on a "watch videos of pro furniture makers showing you techniques"
kick and began noting how they do things versus how hobbyists do things.
While the end results may be similar, or In some cases identical, the
pro and the hobbyist are two distinctly different beasts.

Here's the differences I've got down so far. Feel free to add those
you've discovered.

The pro makes his/her living from furniture making so Time is Money.

The hobbyist makes furniture for fun/ therapy so time isn't all that
important. The money part of the equation may or may not be a factor.
=============================

The pro makes furniture for customers.

The hobbyist makes things for himself/herself or perhaps a spouse,
significant other, family member or for friends.
=============================

The pro is in the shallower part of the learning curve as far as
furniture making goes. The business side may be a different story.

The hobbyist Is in the steeper part of the learning curve for furniture
making but doesn't have to worry about any business end.
=============================

The pro will spend semi-big bucks on a piece of equipment that will
significantly increase productivity (read make more money by increasing
productivity than spent on the equipment to do so). However, she/he is
less apt to succumb to impulse buying slick doo-dads and or forking over
money for a neat-o-spiral-cutting- filigree-making-laser guided tool or
machine.

The hobbyist "will make do with what he/she has" when it comes to big
ticket items and agonize for months over Brand A vs Brand B and the
hundred dollar difference between the price of the two "final
candidates". YET - he/she will often buy hundreds and hundreds of
dollars of "look how pretty this thing is" and "that's cool - I'm sure
I'll find something to do with it" items.

(NOTE: The pro knows, or is acquainted with, a lot more woodworkers than
the typical hobbyist. As a result, the pro is far more apt to pick up
tools and equipment USED for less than half the price of NEW - and
they'll be on the high end of the quality, fit & finish and capabilities
range. The pro seldom buys doo-dads - unless she/he knows the investment
will yield a good return - or thinks it will.)
=============================

The pro has developed a set of designs - four or five of the major
pieces of furniture - chair, table, cabinet, dresser etc. - with several
variations of each. He/she has a fairly clear mental image of what goes
where and how, and knows what the finished piece will look like because
he/she has made several of this item before.

The hobbyist hasn't found a style and a set of proportions - yet. Since
each piece, for her/him, is unique and exists only as a semi-general/
semi-specific mental image, the details of the components are often
vague, coming into focus only as the parts are laid out, cut and set
next to each other.
=============================

The pro has made full scale templates of the major components of each of
his/her best sellers as well as a few personal favorites. Some of the
templates are designed to be used with a specific piece of machinery - a
shaper, router table, router, etc..

The hobbyist, if he/she is methodical, lays out the components of the
piece "on the bench", right on the stock being used. Being uncertain if
his/her ideas will result in a finished piece that is worth doing again,
by the time dry fitting answers some of the "is this worth doing
again?", parts have been shaped and dry fitted. At that point, making
good basic templates is gone since there may no longer be a flat face or
a square edge.
=============================

Once the wood is in the shop, the pro doesn't see it in terms of dollars
per board foot. Its type, dimensions, color and grain become far more
important than its initial price. Cut-offs are waste, to be disposed
of.
Ironically, for internal "won't show" parts a pro will spend time
getting the most parts out of a given board.

The hobbyist initially tries to utilize every square foot of each board
foot because $/bf, rather than grain direction and grain pattern, is
more important. Cut-offs are treasures to be stored away for some
future masterpiece. Hobbyists are Silas Marner when it comes to wood,
not so much because of the beauty of the wood, but rather all those
bucks spent on each board foot.
=============================

The pro will have thousands of board feet of wood in the shop or a shed,
much of it rough milled 4/4, 6/4, 8/4 and maybe some 12/4. The pro will
spend some time milling what she/he needs when needed, knowing that
properly milled stock is a key to parts that will fit together properly
later.

The hobbyist usually won't have a lot of wood "just sitting around" in
racks and what he/she does have was probably bought already dimensioned
and sanded. Very little time will be spent even checking to see if a
board is flat, the edges square to the face and straight - UNTIL it
causes a problem or twelve later. Only then will awareness that wood
moves set in and stock preparation become important. Most stock will
enter the shop as 1/2 or 3/4 inch thickness.
=============================

The pro has developed an efficient "rough stock to finished piece"
procedure, making all the cuts a given set up/ operation will do on ALL
the parts that use this set up/operation. This not only saves time but
also eliminates or minimizes matching parts that don't in fact match.
One chair or table leg that's just a smidge shorter or longer than the
others will make a difference later.

The hobbyist is often an example of Brownian Motion - do this, do that
and then go back and do this again. The result can be "matching parts"
that don't - in the worse case, a table with 16 and 7/16th inch legs
.=============================

The pro sands to 180, sometimes to 220.

The hobbyist sands to 400, sometimes to 1000 - wet/dry of course and may
continue on to 00000000 steel wool.
=============================

The pro settles on one or two finishes and stick with them for just
about everything but tints/stains to even out sapwood/heartwood
differences. The objective is to get a durable finish on the piece
that's fast drying, low maintenance and looks nice. Returns and
refinishing them is a money loser so when a piece leaves the shop it
should never return.

The hobbyist has shelves and shelves of bottles, jars and cans of
shellac, varnish, lacquers, tung oil, linseed oil, boiled linseed oil,
walnut oil, teak oil, danish oil, poly and Bubba's Secret Concoction
with a box full of foam brushes. He/she is willing to use a finish that
takes a week to dry between coats.
=============================

For most pros, furniture making is work, at times fun, but mainly work.

For most hobbyists, furniture making is fun, at times work, but mainly
fun.
=============================

charlie b

Great comparison...

Add, the Pro will use brads, finish nails and or pocket hole screws, when
those fasteners can replace the clamp while the glue dries.

Not by anyone doing quality work !!
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..
Great comparison...

Add, the Pro will use brads, finish nails and or pocket hole screws, when
those fasteners can replace the clamp while the glue dries.

ah, I've seen professional cabinets with pocket hole screws! Where are
you from??

dave

George M. Kazaka wrote:

Not by anyone doing quality work !!
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..

Great comparison...

Add, the Pro will use brads, finish nails and or pocket hole screws, when
those fasteners can replace the clamp while the glue dries.

"George M. Kazaka" wrote in message
...
Well charlie Thats about it in a nutshell except you forgot one,
A hobbyist will use hand tools and cut hand dovetails etc,
A pro will say are you outa your feakin mind ??? and throw the switch on a
machine that does the same thing G

SNIP

At the high end of custom furniture hand cut dovetails are almost a must.
The reason so many of the hand cut dovetails are so thin is to distinguish
them from being cut on a Leigh Jig. Someone paying big bucks doesn't want
machine cut dovetails. The people who cut a lot of dovetails can do the
extremely fast...and accurate.

Also, the pro gets a tax write-off on tools and equipment, which makes
it easier to tout high-end products here and elswhere.

Probably the majority of hobbyist would do the same thing. Cut a dovetail by
hand once. Just to say I did it. Turned out rather well but I won't do it
again.


"George M. Kazaka" wrote in message
...
Well charlie Thats about it in a nutshell except you forgot one,
A hobbyist will use hand tools and cut hand dovetails etc,
A pro will say are you outa your feakin mind ??? and throw the switch on a
machine that does the same thing G

Pocket Hole assembly has been around a lot longer than most of you know and
in the right place there is nothing Non Quality about them,
I've been contemplating getting a Kreg jig for a long time now but have not
that much use for it

Face nails and staples are a no no to me and anyone doing any quality work.

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
om...
ah, I've seen professional cabinets with pocket hole screws! Where are
you from??

dave

George M. Kazaka wrote:

Not by anyone doing quality work !!
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..

Great comparison...

Add, the Pro will use brads, finish nails and or pocket hole screws,
when
those fasteners can replace the clamp while the glue dries.

I find that to be a rather ridiculous notion. This idea of "quality work"
can only be done the way they did it 150 years ago. If pneumatic nailers and
pocket hole systems were available 150 years ago, the antiques that everyone
holds in such high regard would have them. The reason they were not used at
the time is due to (lack of) availability and expense. Things can be made
well or made badly. Either can be done with modern or ancient techniques.
Somebody on here (wish I could remember who) once stated that things weren't
necessarily made better 150 years ago, it just seems that way because the
only ones that have survived long enough for you to see were well made. The
lousy ones (of which there were many) fell apart long before they could ever
achieve antique status.


"George M. Kazaka" wrote in message
...
Not by anyone doing quality work !!
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..
Great comparison...

Add, the Pro will use brads, finish nails and or pocket hole screws,
when
those fasteners can replace the clamp while the glue dries.

CW writes:

techniques.
Somebody on here (wish I could remember who) once stated that things weren't
necessarily made better 150 years ago, it just seems that way because the
only ones that have survived long enough for you to see were well made. The
lousy ones (of which there were many) fell apart long before they could ever
achieve antique status.

True. Same holds for old houses. The dumps, the shacks, the hovels have all
collapsed, while the beautifully built Victorians and others have survived to
be revamped and modernized to survive for another 100+ years. I've lived in
houses built in the 1830 that were not as well made as the barns built the same
year or the year before...but those barns were built for often life-giving
protection for property that was precious to the farmer. His comfort, his
family's comfort, came second, so the house went up with whatever wood and
nails were handy, while the barn was built with mortise and tenons and pegged
joints.

Hell, both sets of my grandparents lived on farms that were built like that.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

"CW"You are absolutely correct,
I for the life of me cannot believe that someone in the year 160o made a
better peice of furniture than because he had to use a moulding plane and
threw a bit in a router and did the same thing in a few seconds.
I do agree that he had more muscle in his forearms than I.

I do admire what these craftmen did without the sophiticated machinery and
tools that we now have.
I have many many books on old antique furniture that go way way back.


"CW" wrote in message
news:stVtb.170285$9E1.862708@attbi_s52...
I find that to be a rather ridiculous notion. This idea of "quality work"
can only be done the way they did it 150 years ago. If pneumatic nailers
and
pocket hole systems were available 150 years ago, the antiques that
everyone
holds in such high regard would have them. The reason they were not used
at
the time is due to (lack of) availability and expense. Things can be made
well or made badly. Either can be done with modern or ancient techniques.
Somebody on here (wish I could remember who) once stated that things
weren't
necessarily made better 150 years ago, it just seems that way because the
only ones that have survived long enough for you to see were well made.
The
lousy ones (of which there were many) fell apart long before they could
ever
achieve antique status.


"George M. Kazaka" wrote in message
...
Not by anyone doing quality work !!
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..
Great comparison...

Add, the Pro will use brads, finish nails and or pocket hole screws,
when
those fasteners can replace the clamp while the glue dries.

The use of those fasteners does not affect the quality, longevity, and or
appearance if done correctly.
A majority of the time only the builder knows.

"George M. Kazaka" wrote in message
...
Not by anyone doing quality work !!
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..
Great comparison...

Add, the Pro will use brads, finish nails and or pocket hole screws,
when
those fasteners can replace the clamp while the glue dries.

"George M. Kazaka" wrote in message
...
Pocket Hole assembly has been around a lot longer than most of you know
and
in the right place there is nothing Non Quality about them,
I've been contemplating getting a Kreg jig for a long time now but have
not
that much use for it

Face nails and staples are a no no to me and anyone doing any quality
work.


Obviously nails and or staples that are exposed are a no no, but I would be
glad to post a pic of a couple of end tables / night stands that I built
last simmer. I would consider them of High Quality and I did use brads and
pocket hole screws. I doubt you could find the brads. The brads were used
to speed production and reduce clamp time. The customers were quite
pleased.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:40:41 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:

ah, I've seen professional cabinets with pocket hole screws! Where are
you from??

As well as hidden brads.

I think the distinction needs to be made between "traditional methods"
and "modern methods" among both pros and hobbyists. Professionally
built furniture in the "traditional method" is both available and
sought after by _some_ customers. On the other hand, some "modern"
inventions like the metal fastener, modern finishes, etc... were
invented for a reason.

There is a letter to the editor in the latest edition of "Woodshop
News" that addresses not only this topic, but the thinking of many
amateurs on this NG as well. Furniture often needs to be durable and
functional, modern technology helps today's pro deliver a product
meeting the exact needs of the customer.

Barry

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:51:16 -0600 (CST), (John)
wrote:

Also, the pro gets a tax write-off on tools and equipment, which makes
it easier to tout high-end products here and elswhere.


You've never owned a business, have you?

#1 - there are no 100 cent dollars. For every deductible buck spent,
the IRS returns 15-40 something percent of it, depending upon the
individuals tax bracket..

#2 - low-end stuff neither lasts nor provides the quality in a pro
environment.

#3 - "Real" pro and high-end stuff usually isn't even mentioned here,
they don't sell it at Woodcraft (except maybe Lie-Neilson). Visit a
local cabinet or millwork shop and you can see what truly "high-end"
stuff looks like. You'll also notice that much of it will be quite
old. Some of this stuff is so expensive or hard to get , even the
pros have to buy used.

Barry

Yep. Sizzle versus steak.

Proving once again that a fool and his money....

"RWM" wrote in message
...

At the high end of custom furniture hand cut dovetails are almost a must.
The reason so many of the hand cut dovetails are so thin is to distinguish
them from being cut on a Leigh Jig. Someone paying big bucks doesn't want
machine cut dovetails. The people who cut a lot of dovetails can do the
extremely fast...and accurate.

"RWM" wrote in message
...

At the high end of custom furniture hand cut dovetails are almost a must.
The reason so many of the hand cut dovetails are so thin is to distinguish
them from being cut on a Leigh Jig. Someone paying big bucks doesn't want
machine cut dovetails. The people who cut a lot of dovetails can do the
extremely fast...and accurate.

Yuh think?

That has not been my experience.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:59:01 -0700, "George M. Kazaka"
wrote:

Well charlie Thats about it in a nutshell except you forgot one,
A hobbyist will use hand tools and cut hand dovetails etc,
A pro will say are you outa your feakin mind ??? and throw the switch on a
machine that does the same thing G


On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:43:12 -0500, "George"
wrote:

Yep. Sizzle versus steak.

Proving once again that a fool and his money....


T'aint necessarily so, Georges.

The higher end of the market includes a higher percentage of more
sophisticated buyers, some of whom are as interested in the 'who' and
the 'how' of things as they are in the 'what.'

I've had them quote Pye's stuff about 'the workmanship of risk' at me
while they were telling me that they wanted me to build something for
them, not because I was cheaper (I wasn't), not because I'd get it
done faster (I wouldn't), but simply because I would be the one doing
the entire thing, from design through finishing and I would be using
techniques and equipment that didn't remind them too much of the
factory versions of same.

The term, 'hand made' takes a pretty good beating in the custom
furnishings business. If a carving is roughed out by a CNC machine
but every exposed surface is worked by hand with carving tools, is it
'hand made' or machine made?

There's a very tiny market for purely neander made stuff. However,
there is a substantially bigger market for furnishings that are not
strictly 'hand made' but are certainly not mass produced.

Is the hand cut dovetail any stronger than a well executed machine
made dovetail? I don't think so and, with some of the skinny little
pins I see out there, many of them are less strong.

That hand cut dovetail is an 'homage' to the traditions of the craft
and is something that a customer will pull open to show a visitor to
their home and say, "Those dovetails were cut by hand, can you believe
it?"

And they are willing to pay for that pleasure.

God Bless their pea-pickin' hearts..(tef...rip)





Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

Nor mine ... mine is that those will pay the "big bucks" are the least
likely to know the difference.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

"Leon" wrote in message

"RWM" wrote in message

At the high end of custom furniture hand cut dovetails are almost a
must.
The reason so many of the hand cut dovetails are so thin is to
distinguish
them from being cut on a Leigh Jig. Someone paying big bucks doesn't
want
machine cut dovetails. The people who cut a lot of dovetails can do the
extremely fast...and accurate.

Yuh think?

That has not been my experience.

Barry Burke writes:

#3 - "Real" pro and high-end stuff usually isn't even mentioned here,
they don't sell it at Woodcraft (except maybe Lie-Neilson). Visit a
local cabinet or millwork shop and you can see what truly "high-end"
stuff looks like. You'll also notice that much of it will be quite
old. Some of this stuff is so expensive or hard to get , even the
pros have to buy used.

Not always. A friend's base shop machine is a Powermatic 66...and it is aged.
His most recent purchase was a 36" drum sander. Not available at Woodcraft, but
not at all hard to find. He does have a 12" jointer no one carries...but that's
due to age. I traded for an old cyclone DC from him, which another friend now
has: that is still available if you spend $1500 or so for it.

He has a couple old DeWalt radial arm saws. A couple 5 HP shapers. Absolutely
nothing esoteric.

Whoops. Forgot. His bandsaw is one his father built.

Everything else is commonly available.

Another outfit, Mike Maxwell's place, has some esoteric stuff, but that's a
much larger scale furniture operation, where the Timesaver sander is worth its
weight in dust. He still has a lot of standard stuff, including a Bridgewood
cabinet saw that is very old. And, yup, he did buy much of it used. Primarily,
that's because Mike has 3 phase and wants the features found in old
tools...again, an old DeWalt RAS, much else.

But probably 50% of this stuff is still stocked at various places that sell
gear to the hobbyists who wish to pay for it.

I also have to wonder how many pros use Lie-Nielsen (or any other) brand of
hand planes. They're great tools, but I'm willing to bet Tom Lie-Nielsen's
customer base lies within the ranks of the hobbyists.


Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

On 17 Nov 2003 14:10:49 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Barry Burke writes:

#3 - "Real" pro and high-end stuff usually isn't even mentioned here,
they don't sell it at Woodcraft (except maybe Lie-Neilson). Visit a
local cabinet or millwork shop and you can see what truly "high-end"
stuff looks like. You'll also notice that much of it will be quite
old. Some of this stuff is so expensive or hard to get , even the
pros have to buy used.

Not always. A friend's base shop machine is a Powermatic 66...and it is aged.
His most recent purchase was a 36" drum sander. Not available at Woodcraft, but
not at all hard to find.

Absolutely. Nothing is that hard to find, but sometimes the cost of
moving it is a problem.

I've seen plenty of PM66's and Unisaws in pro shops. I was writing of
big jointers, multiple bladed tablesaws, gang rippers, molders, etc...
Stuff that's more or less carried by industrial equipment dealers, new
and used. For some reason, a millwork shop was stuck in my mind at
the time I wrote that. Any hobbyist could certainly purchase the same
stuff, money is money! G

I do know some pros that use LN planes, but you're probably right
about hobbyists owning most of them.

Barry

Q.E.D.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
Is the hand cut dovetail any stronger than a well executed machine
made dovetail? I don't think so and, with some of the skinny little
pins I see out there, many of them are less strong.

That hand cut dovetail is an 'homage' to the traditions of the craft
and is something that a customer will pull open to show a visitor to
their home and say, "Those dovetails were cut by hand, can you believe
it?"

And they are willing to pay for that pleasure.

God Bless their pea-pickin' hearts..(tef...rip)

"George" wrote in message
...
| Yep. Sizzle versus steak.
|
| Proving once again that a fool and his money....

I wonder if it's about bragging rights. Some people want to be able to say
their exsquisite furniture is "entirely hand made."

--Jay

charlie b wrote:
The Professional Furniture Maker and The Hobbyist Furniture Maker

snip

Nice list. One addition: Many hobbyists dream of going pro, or at least
working in a shop like Tom Plamann's. I have no idea what pros dream about.
g

drool
http://plamann.com/sys-tmpl/scrapbook/
/drool

-- Mark

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:22:07 -0500, "George"
wrote:

Q.E.D.

Querulous Expert Disagrees?

But seriously folks: Yer Quod, I believe, was about economics.

I can hand dovetail a simple through dovetail drawer in half an hour.

Until I get beyond about six drawers I can't overcome the setup time
for the Leigh Jig, nor can I deall with the chunking and tearout,
which I don't get when cutting by hand.

So, Yer Demonstrandum is undemonstrated.

And Yer Erat moves into the column for Errata.



Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

"Swingman" wrote in message
news.com...
Nor mine ... mine is that those will pay the "big bucks" are the least
likely to know the difference.


;~) Yeah..!! I think the people that actually want every thing made out of
wood and all joints "hand-cut" are the people that build their own
furniture...;~)

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
...
charlie b wrote:
The Professional Furniture Maker and The Hobbyist Furniture Maker

snip

Nice list. One addition: Many hobbyists dream of going pro, or at least
working in a shop like Tom Plamann's. I have no idea what pros dream
about.
g



I can tell you they dream about slowing down and doing fewer pieces for more
money.. ;~)

Hmmm, why would a pro not use a LN plane? or would they not use a plane
at all?

BRuce

B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
On 17 Nov 2003 14:10:49 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:


Barry Burke writes:


#3 - "Real" pro and high-end stuff usually isn't even mentioned here,
they don't sell it at Woodcraft (except maybe Lie-Neilson). Visit a
local cabinet or millwork shop and you can see what truly "high-end"
stuff looks like. You'll also notice that much of it will be quite
old. Some of this stuff is so expensive or hard to get , even the
pros have to buy used.

Not always. A friend's base shop machine is a Powermatic 66...and it is aged.
His most recent purchase was a 36" drum sander. Not available at Woodcraft, but
not at all hard to find.


Absolutely. Nothing is that hard to find, but sometimes the cost of
moving it is a problem.

I've seen plenty of PM66's and Unisaws in pro shops. I was writing of
big jointers, multiple bladed tablesaws, gang rippers, molders, etc...
Stuff that's more or less carried by industrial equipment dealers, new
and used. For some reason, a millwork shop was stuck in my mind at
the time I wrote that. Any hobbyist could certainly purchase the same
stuff, money is money! G

I do know some pros that use LN planes, but you're probably right
about hobbyists owning most of them.

Barry

BRuce asks:

Hmmm, why would a pro not use a LN plane? or would they not use a plane
at all?

The latter. Some do, some don't, but unless you can convince a pro he's better
off spending xxx bucks for an L-V, he's apt to buy a used whatever for x bucks
and spend some time tuning it up, if he didn't do so 30 years ago. Or go for a
Veritas at a similar quality level and lower price. For the most part, pros
that I've met do not use planes. They set their work up so that it can be done
without proud surfaces, so little such work is needed, if any.

That, of course, doesn't count the makers who do the whole thing, or most of
it, by hand. And lots of pros do keep an apron plane handy for those rough
spots or increasing the size of an overlay or a rabbet in just a short area.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

Mark Jerde notes:


Nice list. One addition: Many hobbyists dream of going pro, or at least
working in a shop like Tom Plamann's. I have no idea what pros dream about.
g


About like pro anything who operates a small business: dream of the exception,
someone who presents a clear order with a clear date, accepts, or presents and
accepts, a reasonable contract, and pays on time, or a bit early.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

Not really, just about the sizzle being more important to some than the
sirloin.

Sorry you missed it.

I've been turning Christmas ornaments today. They're hollow, because I like
the virtuosity, and they fetch a higher price, not because they would be too
heavy on an artificial tree. I agree - bless those rich folk. I couldn't
afford my prices....

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:22:07 -0500, "George"
wrote:

But seriously folks: Yer Quod, I believe, was about economics.

Depends. Semipro, but I had an order for 20 frames and a display system to
do last week. Running a #4 up the pieces meant I didn't have to sand. Way
ahead of the game in my book.

BRuce wrote in message news:1069090855.774027@sj-nntpcache-5...
Hmmm, why would a pro not use a LN plane? or would they not use a plane
at all?

thanks charlie, makes some sense I guess. bought my first one this week
so that I could flush fit some birch banding. plywood was not quite the
same thickness overall and the block plane made short work of it.
Looked a lot better than sanding also. I am not a pro but will be paid
for this piece.

BRuce

Charlie Self wrote:

BRuce asks:


Hmmm, why would a pro not use a LN plane? or would they not use a plane
at all?


The latter. Some do, some don't, but unless you can convince a pro he's better
off spending xxx bucks for an L-V, he's apt to buy a used whatever for x bucks
and spend some time tuning it up, if he didn't do so 30 years ago. Or go for a
Veritas at a similar quality level and lower price. For the most part, pros
that I've met do not use planes. They set their work up so that it can be done
without proud surfaces, so little such work is needed, if any.

That, of course, doesn't count the makers who do the whole thing, or most of
it, by hand. And lots of pros do keep an apron plane handy for those rough
spots or increasing the size of an overlay or a rabbet in just a short area.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:40:41 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:

ah, I've seen professional cabinets with pocket hole screws! Where are
you from??

As well as hidden brads.

I think the distinction needs to be made between "traditional methods"
and "modern methods" among both pros and hobbyists. Professionally
built furniture in the "traditional method" is both available and
sought after by _some_ customers. On the other hand, some "modern"
inventions like the metal fastener, modern finishes, etc... were
invented for a reason.

I'm about to embark on my first real project, which is a "traditional
Shaker lap desk." My goal is mostly to practice some WW techniques
and hopefully have something to show for it, even if it ain't
'perfect.' Anyway, last night I was looking through the plans to get
an idea of the joinery I'll need to do: the sides are dovetailed (as
is the single drawer), the top has breadboard ends, etc.; but I
couldn't tell from the diagram how the bottom is attached (it's flush
with the sides). As I read through the brief instructions it says the
bottom is "held in place by brads." I was surprised to say the least.
I thought "isn't there a more appropriate technique?" Why go to the
trouble of dovetails and doweled breadboard ends only to nail the
bottom in place? Actually, now that I think about it, the bottom will
not support any internal force since the drawer is directly above it,
so it's probably structurally sound, but it still seems sort of shoddy
compared to the rest of the construction. Am I looking at this the
wrong way?

Cheers,
Mike

Yep ... The Shaker's had hammers, therefore you can safely assume that they
had nails/brads and used them. Turn over just about any antique I've ever
seen and you will find fasteners of some type ... nothing sinful about it,
IMO.

Of course there are nazi's in every art form, from music to furniture
making. I remember the first time I brought an electric bass to a Bluegrass
festival as part of the headline act ... you'd thunk the end of the world
was at hand with all the grumbling in the crowd from the Bluegrass
"purists".

Just do your art from the heart and to hell with those stiff necks who
insist there is only one way to do something.

---
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Mike" wrote in message

I'm about to embark on my first real project, which is a "traditional
Shaker lap desk." My goal is mostly to practice some WW techniques
and hopefully have something to show for it, even if it ain't
'perfect.' Anyway, last night I was looking through the plans to get
an idea of the joinery I'll need to do: the sides are dovetailed (as
is the single drawer), the top has breadboard ends, etc.; but I
couldn't tell from the diagram how the bottom is attached (it's flush
with the sides). As I read through the brief instructions it says the
bottom is "held in place by brads." I was surprised to say the least.
I thought "isn't there a more appropriate technique?" Why go to the
trouble of dovetails and doweled breadboard ends only to nail the
bottom in place? Actually, now that I think about it, the bottom will
not support any internal force since the drawer is directly above it,
so it's probably structurally sound, but it still seems sort of shoddy
compared to the rest of the construction. Am I looking at this the
wrong way?

Cheers,
Mike

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:42:01 -0500, BRuce BRuce wrote:

Hmmm, why would a pro not use a LN plane? or would they not use a plane
at all?

BRuce

Some do, some don't.

Many pros in many fields are already using a tool they're comfortable
with, that they've massaged and tuned, and unlikely to spring for a
new tool.

It's like musical instruments. If you've spent YEARS tuning a tool to
your satisfaction, you may be unlikely to replace it. This can be
true even if the replacement is superior in many ways.

Barry

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:45:45 -0500, "George"
wrote:

Not really, just about the sizzle being more important to some than the
sirloin.

Sorry you missed it.

I still am.


I've been turning Christmas ornaments today. They're hollow, because I like
the virtuosity, and they fetch a higher price, not because they would be too
heavy on an artificial tree.

I chicken out when the daylight shows through. Prolly a lack of
fortitude.


I agree - bless those rich folk. I couldn't
afford my prices....

Me neither. Guess that's why my house looks like an Ikea showroom.

Every time I make something nice - some chucklehead buys it.

sigh . . .


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:41:46 GMT, "Swingman" wrote:

Just do your art from the heart and to hell with those stiff necks who
insist there is only one way to do something.


Spoken like a true musician!

Barry

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:54:14 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:41:46 GMT, "Swingman" wrote:

Just do your art from the heart and to hell with those stiff necks who
insist there is only one way to do something.


Spoken like a true musician!

"Love wooddorking and do as you will."

(Freely taken from Augustine - The Confessions)



Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson