Lew Hodgett wrote:

Debit card fraud must be reported within 48 hours to stay with in the
$50 liability.

Credit card fraud must be reported within 60 days to stay with in the
$50 liability.

There are other differences, but the above is enough for me not to
have a debit card.


Lew,

You give one very good reason to go with a credit card instead of a
debit card. I can't even think of one good reason TO use a debit card.

In addition to the liability issues that you mentioned above, debit
cards give vendors direct access to your bank account as money is
withdrawn almost immediately when a purchase is made. If money is
withdrawn fraudulently, the bank must return it within 10 days, but
you're the one who has to jump through hoops to make it happen.

Also, credit card issuers are required to allow you to refute a charge
for up to 60 days in the event of a problem. Debit card issuers aren't
required to do this, and their policy on this varies from bank to bank.


Just remember to pay off that balance EVERY month.

Joe

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 06:45:52 -0400, 10x wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Debit card fraud must be reported within 48 hours to stay with in the
$50 liability.

Credit card fraud must be reported within 60 days to stay with in the
$50 liability.

There are other differences, but the above is enough for me not to
have a debit card.


Lew,

You give one very good reason to go with a credit card instead of a
debit card. I can't even think of one good reason TO use a debit card.


There is no reason to use a debit card. But in cases where someone
does not have a credit card, can not get a credit card, or is
financially irresponsible, a debit makes a lot of sense.

In addition to the liability issues that you mentioned above, debit
cards give vendors direct access to your bank account as money is
withdrawn almost immediately when a purchase is made. If money is
withdrawn fraudulently, the bank must return it within 10 days, but
you're the one who has to jump through hoops to make it happen.

Also, credit card issuers are required to allow you to refute a charge
for up to 60 days in the event of a problem. Debit card issuers aren't
required to do this, and their policy on this varies from bank to bank.

Not only that, but using a credit card protects your purchases. You
get limited protection with a debit card, PayPal, a check, or cash.
But, most shoppers tend to spend more with a credit card.


Just remember to pay off that balance EVERY month.

Credit card companies HATE that. Credit card companies hate me!


Joe

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 06:45:52 -0400, 10x wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Debit card fraud must be reported within 48 hours to stay with in the
$50 liability.

Credit card fraud must be reported within 60 days to stay with in the
$50 liability.

There are other differences, but the above is enough for me not to
have a debit card.


Lew,

You give one very good reason to go with a credit card instead of a
debit card. I can't even think of one good reason TO use a debit card.


There is no reason to use a debit card. But in cases where someone
does not have a credit card, can not get a credit card, or is
financially irresponsible, a debit makes a lot of sense.


I never use cash anymore except for Tim Horton's where debit cards aren't
accepted. I've never had a problem with missing money or any unauthorized
transactions.

I would say a debit card is better than a credit card with regards to
financial responsibility. It's easy to overspend with a credit card but a
debit card is directly tied to your bank account.

Maxwell Lol wrote:
10x writes:

You give one very good reason to go with a credit card instead of a
debit card. I can't even think of one good reason TO use a debit card.

It's easier than writing checks, and can be used on the Internet for
immediate payment.


_WHY_ in the world would you choose a DEBIT CARD over a credit card on
the Internet? G

I'd rather use a credit card in that situation. If something goes awry
I have much more time to straighten it out, and the problem in progress
won't cause things like my mortgage payment to bounce.

Last year, I had two instances where there were big time problems on my
cards:

#1.) Someone used my credit card number to buy $7500 worth of stuff from
an eBay seller, to be shipped abroad. One phone call, credits & a new
account number, and it's and all cleaned up on my end.

#2.) A restaurant's bank screwed up and billed me 16 times for the same
$71 meal. Again, one phone call, no more problem!

I'm sure glad I wasn't stressing over my checking account, which is
linked to a savings account, either time. ;^)

We do _everything_ on a "bonus" credit card, which gets paid in full by
a check sent by my credit union's free "bill pay" service. Each credit
card transaction goes into Quicken, and therefore out of the budget, as
it's "spent" (just like a check), so the money is automatically
available when the bill is cut.

No fees, no finance charges, and we get ~ $800-1000/year back.

On 13 Nov 2007 19:32:15 -0500, Maxwell Lol wrote:

B A R R Y writes:

_WHY_ in the world would you choose a DEBIT CARD over a credit card on
the Internet? G

Given a choice between a paper check and a debut card, I'll use a
debit card.


My suggestion is that a good credit card offers you safety over both.
And it's usually free of charge to you.


---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

Maxwell Lol wrote:

Sigh.... And for the third time, I will state that a credit card was
not one of the choices.

Point taken!

There are actually places that will take a debit card and not a credit
card, or is this a personal choice to not use credit cards?

I promise, if it's a personal choice, I'll not question it, as I've made
my point earlier. G

If it's the former, that's odd.

Maxwell Lol wrote:
B A R R Y writes:


There are actually places that will take a debit card and not a credit
card, or is this a personal choice to not use credit cards?

My personal reasons are not important.

Agreed. "Personal choice" is good enough. G

Somebody wrote:

There are actually places that will take a debit card and not a
credit
card, or is this a personal choice to not use credit cards?

IMHO, a debit card is the same as cash.

If a merchant will not accept a credit card, but will accept a debit
card, then the merchant better offer a cash discount or we probably
won't be doing business.

Lew

On Nov 15, 6:23�pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Somebody wrote:
There are actually places that will take a debit card and not a
credit
card, or is this a personal choice to not use credit cards?

IMHO, a debit card is the same as cash.

If a merchant will not accept a credit card, but will accept a debit
card, then the merchant better offer a cash discount or we probably
won't be doing business.

Lew

Do banks charge the retailer for transactions on a debit card and, if
they do, is it the same charge as for credit cards?

FoggyTown

FoggyTown wrote:

Do banks charge the retailer for transactions on a debit card.

If they do, it's not my problem.

Debit cards are a con job by the banking industry, IMHO.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

Debit cards are a con job by the banking industry, IMHO.

The "banking industry" is a con job to start with ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/11/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

FoggyTown wrote:

Do banks charge the retailer for transactions on a debit card

Why, YES! G

and, if
they do, is it the same charge as for credit cards?

No. It depends on merchant agreements.

At a business I'm intimately familiar with, $35 is our "split".

Over $35, debit cards are better for us. Under $35, credit cards are
better. This will vary, sometimes considerably, from bid'net to bid'net.

We no longer take AMEX due to fee madness.

"Maxwell Lol" wrote:

I prefer them over writing checks.

To each his own.

They are still a con job.

Lew

On Nov 16, 6:16�am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Maxwell Lol" wrote:
I prefer them over writing checks.

To each his own.

They are still a con job.

Lew

So you have said, but not explained why.

FoggyTown

"Maxwell Lol" wrote

And how is it a con? Who is cheating whom?
As an end user, I get many benefits.

Been carrying two debit cards, both business and personal, for 15 years, by
preference and in lieu of writing checks/carrying cash, and neither has ever
cost me a red cent ... if that's a "con", it's my kinda "con" -
CONvenience.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/11/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

FoggyTown wrote:
On Nov 16, 6:16�am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Maxwell Lol" wrote:
I prefer them over writing checks.

To each his own.

They are still a con job.

Lew

So you have said, but not explained why.

With a debit card I can get money out of my checking or savings
account 2000 miles from home at 3 AM. Try that with a check.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

My Credit card ( Chase business) pays 3% on gas,dinning,,home
improvements,office supplies, So its a no brainer to use it and pay in
full each month. However I use my debit card each day because my
checking account pays 5.12% interest ( 6% this summer) the catch is
electronic statements, on line bill pay, and use your debit card 12
times per month( I get $250 interest per month) I used to have to use
my ATM/debit card to get cash from ATM machines but now get cash back
when using the debit card, an added perk. Both my credit and debit
cards have there advantages.

henry wrote:
my
checking account pays 5.12% interest ( 6% this summer) the catch is
electronic statements, on line bill pay, and use your debit card 12
times per month( I get $250 interest per month

Can you name the bank or credit union?

I'd like to open an account. I'm serious! G

https://www.florencesavings.com Rewards checking

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:50:23 -0800 (PST), henry
wrote:

https://www.florencesavings.com Rewards checking


Thanks! I'll check it out.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:50:23 -0800 (PST), henry
wrote:

https://www.florencesavings.com Rewards checking


413 area code, Sweeeet... I'm in CT! G

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"FoggyTown" wrote:

So you have said, but not explained why.


Perhaps you missed this earlier post:

SFWIW, some interesting info this afternoon on the boob tube:

In the event your card # is stolen and used:

Debit card fraud must be reported within 48 hours to stay with in the
$50 liability.

Credit card fraud must be reported within 60 days to stay with in the
$50 liability.

There are other differences, but the above is enough for me not to
have a debit card.



Sounds like a pretty good con to me.

Again, SFWIW:

If you paper checking account # is stolen and your account is drained, the
bank has 3 days to open a new account and replace your money.

I had this happen, trust me it is a total PITA.

I said it once, I'll say it again, a debit card is a method by which the
bank limits it's liability by transferring liability to the card holder
under the guise of convenience.

I don't know what you call it, but where I come from, that's a con job at
work.

Lew

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 02:47:03 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

I had this happen, trust me it is a total PITA.

That's my point. My money isn't involved while the details are sorted
out.

"It" did happen to me... *Twice* in 2007, $7500 and $1400 worth.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On 17 Nov 2007 06:58:36 -0500, Maxwell Lol wrote:

With my debit card, I only lose $50. Yet I still have access to my money.

In theory, that is certainly true.

I hear and read lots of stories where banks were not easy to deal
with, on consumer radio shows like "The Clark Howard Show", and in
consumer help newspaper columns.

Even when the fees are completely refunded, there's still the
embarrassment of bounced checks, and the time and hassle of getting
the bank to cover the payee's NSF fees.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"Lew Hodgett" wrote
If you paper checking account # is stolen and your account is drained, the
bank has 3 days to open a new account and replace your money.

I had this happen, trust me it is a total PITA.

I said it once, I'll say it again, a debit card is a method by which the
bank limits it's liability by transferring liability to the card holder
under the guise of convenience.

I don't know what you call it, but where I come from, that's a con job at
work.

Monetary "convenience" of any kind most always entails risk ... carrying
cash, carrying/using checks, using cards of any type, using a safe, a bank,
a mattress or a can buried in the back yard ... all carry risk, some more
than others, as you've repeatedly pointed out.

It's a personal decision as to the amount of "risk" you're willing to assume
for any of these monetary "conveniences".

From my POV, all your arguments with regard to debit cards are basically
nullified by those minimally intelligent/savvy enough to maintain only a
balance they are comfortable risking in an account tied to a debit/check
card.

While this ain't exactly rocket science, I certainly agree that many, if not
most, in this day and age simply can't handle the minimum requirements, and
therefore would do well to not even consider debit cards.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/16/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:49:10 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

From my POV, all your arguments with regard to debit cards are basically
nullified by those minimally intelligent/savvy enough to maintain only a
balance they are comfortable risking in an account tied to a debit/check
card.

Great point, as long as one ensures the bank didn't do you the "favor"
of automatically linking your accounts for overdraft coverage.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"Swingman" wrote:

From my POV, all your arguments with regard to debit cards are basically
nullified by those minimally intelligent/savvy enough to maintain only a
balance they are comfortable risking in an account tied to a debit/check
card.

The only amount I'm willing to risk is zilch, thus no debit cards for me.

When a commercial business, especially a bank, wants to give me something, I
get very uneasy.

The banks are promoting debit cards for reasons that are in their best
interests, not mine.

Lew

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:05:38 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote

Debit cards are a con job by the banking industry, IMHO.

The "banking industry" is a con job to start with ...

I hate banks. I deposit a (state-government issued) check and they
put it on hold for 5 business days, but if I cash the same kind of
check I get my money immediately. Over the years I learned you have
to carefully read the bank-policy booklet.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote:

From my POV, all your arguments with regard to debit cards are basically
nullified by those minimally intelligent/savvy enough to maintain only a
balance they are comfortable risking in an account tied to a debit/check
card.

The only amount I'm willing to risk is zilch, thus no debit cards for me.

We all make our choices ... I can carry $300 cash with me at all times at
the risk of loss, robbery, difficulty of accountability, and having to deal
with pockets full of change; or ...

I can fund/replenish with deposits or online transfers the same $300 in an
account to be accessed with a check card, as needed and at NO cost to me,
with less risk of loss overall, much less risk of robbery, full tracking as
to where the money went, easier accountability for tax purposes than the use
of cash, and with less change to add up on the dresser (which somehow always
finds it way into the pockets of other family members, costing me more money
in the long run).

I personally prefer the convenience of the latter ... obviously YMMV.

When a commercial business, especially a bank, wants to give me something,
I
get very uneasy.

Banking _always_ costs the consumer money ... to dip their beak in your
money is their reason for existence.

It's rare that a fiscally responsible consumer can actually gain the type of
convenience that suits him by wisely allocating funds, and shopping banks on
terms more favorable than the published federal requirements, and have gain
said convenience at no cost to him.


The banks are promoting debit cards for reasons that are in their best
interests, not mine.

For fun, re-read your plain old checking account agreement. It is written by
the bank, in their best interest, and they can unilaterally change the
contract at whim, you can only take your business elsewhere.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/16/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:16:28 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Maxwell Lol" wrote:

I prefer them over writing checks.

To each his own.

They are still a con job.

Lew


And a risk. Someone can easily get your account number. True,
someone can get your credit card number, but I know Discover Card
protects me against this. Plus, Discover will generate a one-time use
number for online purchases.

"Swingman" wrote:

We all make our choices ... I can carry $300 cash with me at all times at
the risk of loss, robbery, difficulty of accountability, and having to
deal
with pockets full of change; or ...

I can fund/replenish with deposits or online transfers the same $300 in an
account to be accessed with a check card, as needed and at NO cost to me,
with less risk of loss overall, much less risk of robbery, full tracking
as
to where the money went, easier accountability for tax purposes than the
use
of cash, and with less change to add up on the dresser (which somehow
always
finds it way into the pockets of other family members, costing me more
money
in the long run).

I personally prefer the convenience of the latter ... obviously YMMV.

The thought of me carrying large amounts of cash is out of the question,
although with the increasing price of gasoline, that amount keeps
increasing.

If I know I'm going to enter a cash only transaction, I withdraw sufficient
funds to cover it, then revert to my minimum cash position.

I chose a particular band based on the fact they have the most ATM machines
in my area.

A credit card, an ATM card, and a small amount of petty cash, and I'm in
business.

Once a month, the credit card company gets a check for the full amount, and
the whole process starts over.

For fun, re-read your plain old checking account agreement.

You gotta be kidding.

Had an eye exam this week, have 20/20 corrected vision.

Would need the Hubbell telescope to read my checking account agreement.

I'm old enough to remember when the banker operated on the 4-6-2 system.

Pay 4% interest a customer's money.

Loan it back to them at 6%.

Tee off at 2:00PM.

Maybe the numbers have changed, but not much else.

Lew

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:12:38 -0500, B A R R Y
wrote:

henry wrote:
my
checking account pays 5.12% interest ( 6% this summer) the catch is
electronic statements, on line bill pay, and use your debit card 12
times per month( I get $250 interest per month

Can you name the bank or credit union?

I'd like to open an account. I'm serious! G


My bank checking account pays 0% interest, but no monthly/yearly fees,
no minimum balance, and free (standard) checks. I can switch to an
interest account that pays 0.45% interest if I keep a $2500 balance.

I write checks off my prime money market account (Vanguard) with 5.25%
interest (currently) but there is minimum of $250 per check, a $3000
minimum balance, and no FDIC.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

I'm old enough to remember when the banker operated on the 4-6-2 system.

Pay 4% interest a customer's money.

Loan it back to them at 6%.

Tee off at 2:00PM.

Maybe the numbers have changed, but not much else.

I once called my lawyer, fit to be tied, madder than a wet hen, with murder
in my heart, and with the full intention of suing a bank and taking it all
the way to the Supreme Court ... yeah, right.

I had deposited a check in excess of $10,000 and it was 17 days before the
funds were available to me, although I had proof from the issuer that the
check had cleared, was debited from their account in favor of the culprit
bank, all within 24 hours.

The lawyer simply said that in law school, if there a question on a test
regarding the outcome of a trial with a bank as one of the litigants, the
answer was _always_ "the bank wins".

Short of politician House and Senate lawyers, there are few more despicable
institutions in this country ... particularly those also in the credit card
business.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/16/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 17 Nov 2007 16:50:09 -0500, Maxwell Lol wrote:

How did they get the information to steal your money?

I don't know. Capital One simply issued me a new card number. From
what I understand, they barely chase these things. Card issuers don't
share their findings with customers. It could have even been an
inside job at the credit card company.

This particular card, which isn't my rewards card, was only used on
ITunes, the local DeWalt repair depot (once - $9), and Kohl's (once -
$22), in the previous year. Both non-ITunes transactions were
in-person. I've used Quicken since 1994, so it's really easy for me
to look this stuff up. My wife's matching card from that issuer has a
different number.

This card is used so infrequently that I was surprised to get a
statement. Once I opened it' I saw (2) $3750 charges for a law office
in Chicago, but I'm in Connecticut and haven't been to Chicago in over
12 years. Of course, the bill arrived at 4:30 PM on a Saturday, so I
left a message on the lawyer's voice mail, and got to stew about it
'till Monday. I also immediately called Capitol One and put the
charges in dispute.

On Monday, the law office called me back, and I got the story. A
clerk in the office had sold some items on eBay, to be shipped out of
North America. She thought it was weird that the buyer wanted to buy
everything she had, including stuff not listed for auction, but she
completed the transaction anyway, through her _BOSS'S_ merchant
account for the legal practice. Oddly, she thought it was up to me to
chase the thief! G

Capitol One agreed the charges were not mine, and I never had to pay a
dime. Apparently, the law clerk is now out $7500, as the money was
charged back to the law office merchant account.

The second instance, with my rewards card, was my favorite seafood
restaurant in Provincetown, MA. Due to a computer glitch, their POS
merchant system ran every transaction _15_ times! G They did this
to 750+ customers. It was all made good, and I paid only for the meal
I ate. It did take two weeks to straighten out, but it got done.

Maybe I'm lucky, and maybe I'm more careful with my debit card.

Tell me where either of the above examples could have been my fault.
Back in June, my credit union sent me a new debit card out of the
blue, because I used it at a TJX owned store that was the subject of a
highly publicized database compromise.

FWIW, a few years back, I was in this very forum touting your point of
view. I'll bet Google still has it. ;^)

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** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

Maxwell Lol wrote:

How did they get the information to steal your money?

Had written the monthly checks, then put them in the mail box.

Thieves broke open the mail box, stole the mail, the rest is history.

Tried to talk to the bank fraud unit, was told is was against bank policy.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message .

If I know I'm going to enter a cash only transaction, I withdraw
sufficient funds to cover it, then revert to my minimum cash position.

I chose a particular band based on the fact they have the most ATM
machines in my area.

A credit card, an ATM card, and a small amount of petty cash, and I'm in
business.

I feel safer with my debit card than walking away from an ATM with a handful
of cash. In Europe (and some places here) I carry a decoy wallet in my back
pocket and another elsewhere.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:43:52 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


Maxwell Lol wrote:

How did they get the information to steal your money?

Had written the monthly checks, then put them in the mail box.

I have a co-worker who had his identity stolen this way. He lives in
a rather upscale town (Madison, CT), where thieves were doing daily
cruises looking for mailbox flags. Many people had identities stolen,
no criminal was ever caught.

It made me a quick convert to my credit union's "Bill Pay" service and
street corner mailboxes.

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** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

Phisherman
henry wrote:
my
checking account pays 5.12% interest ( 6% this summer) the catch is
electronic statements, on line bill pay, and use your debit card 12
times per month( I get $250 interest per month

Can you name the bank or credit union?


I'd like to open an account. I'm serious! G



My bank checking account pays 0% interest, but no monthly/yearly
fees,
no minimum balance, and free (standard) checks. I can switch to an
interest account that pays 0.45% interest if I keep a $2500
balance.

I write checks off my prime money market account (Vanguard) with
5.25%
interest (currently) but there is minimum of $250 per check, a $3000
minimum balance, and no FDIC.


Phisherman re above
I pay no monthly or yearly fees and have no miniumn balance to keep
and can write a check for any amount.

"Maxwell Lol" wrote:

So the problem was with your checking account, and had nothing to do
with the debit card?

Since I don't have a debit card, would seem to be a statement of the
obvious that totally misses the point of the post.

Lew