[Doug Miller]

In article , "David F. Eisan" wrote:
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

No experience with that specifically, but -- here in the U.S., real estate
purchase contracts normally include an inspection contingency. Once the
purchase offer is accepted, the buyer has a certain period of time (typically
about a week) to arrange for an inspection. If the inspection discloses major
defects, the buyer normally has the option to cancel the contract and obtain a
refund of whatever deposit he may have made on the home. I hope that real
estate purchases in Canada aren't much different, and I'm assuming you'll want
to have an inspection performed anyway (to give you information on the
condition of the structure, the plumbing, the roof, windows, etc) -- so make
sure that you hire an inspector who is also a qualified electrician, or is
able to bring one along with him.

Also, I suggest crossposting this question to alt.home.repair and perhaps to
misc.consumers.house as well. Make sure to specify that you're in Canada.
Might not hurt to mention which province (Ontario?) also: I don't know how
much variation there may be in law from one of your provinces to the next, but
on our side of the border, the variation between states can be immense.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[Dave Balderstone]

In article , David F.
Eisan wrote:

Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done?

Call an electrician, explain what your insurance company wants, arrange
with the current owner for an inspection, pay the electrician, get a
report.

[Jim]

"David F. Eisan" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.

If there is any aluminum wiring in the house, whatever you paid was too
much.
It hasn't been used around here in over 40 years because too many people
reported sparks and flames coming out of the convenience outlets.

Thus, I would not need an insurance agent to tell me not to buy that house.

Jim

[Doug Miller]

In article , "Jim" wrote:


If there is any aluminum wiring in the house, whatever you paid was too much.

*That* is a bit too much, don't you think?

It hasn't been used around here in over 40 years because too many people
reported sparks and flames coming out of the convenience outlets.

Thus, I would not need an insurance agent to tell me not to buy that house.

That's overstating the case a little bit. Properly installed and maintained,
aluminum wiring isn't substantially more dangerous than copper. The big
problems with aluminum are that properly installing and maintaining it *is*
substantially more difficult than doing so with copper, and that IMproperly
installed and maintained aluminum wiring is a hell of a lot more dangerous
than improperly installed and maintained copper wiring.

Having said that... given the choice between two otherwise identical homes,
one wired with aluminum and the other with copper, I would unhesitatingly pick
the one with copper, unless the difference in price were sufficient to
compensate for the expense and hassle of replacing the aluminum wire.

But that's mostly because I've seen the kind of dumbass things homeowners do
with their own wiring. If I knew that the aluminum system had been installed
and periodically checked by a pro who knew what he was doing, and never
molested by anyone else, I believe I'd rather have that than a copper system
that had seen three or four decades of mods by clueless homeowners.

Just the same, while it's always prudent to have a sufficient number of
working smoke detectors in any home, it's probably more important if the
wiring is aluminum.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[Leon]

"Jim" wrote in message
t...

"David F. Eian" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,


If there is any aluminum wiring in the house, whatever you paid was too
much.
It hasn't been used around here in over 40 years because too many people
reported sparks and flames coming out of the convenience outlets.

Thus, I would not need an insurance agent to tell me not to buy that
house.


There is a simple remedy to fix a house with aluminum wiring.

[Leon]

"David F. Eisan" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.


David you can have the receptacles replaced with those that solve the
problem having aluminum wiring. IIRC the copper receptacles that were used
with the aluminum wiring was the problem. Aluminum is not a problem nor is
copper as long as the two are used correctly.

[[email protected]]

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.



Around here, you are required to disclose any defects or banned use
materials such as Ureaformadahyde foam or aluminum wiring and any
other major defects. Aluminum wire was in general use about 35/40
yrs ago and quickly fell out of favor because of the overheating/fire
problems

The wire itself is not at issue. It's the possible splices into it
and the devices at the end of each run. The lamp sockets and wall
plugs use brass screws that cause the problems when electrolysis
occurs and over time wires become loose under the screws - high
resistance = hot spots = fires.

There is a low temp aluminum solder that will join aluminum to
copper/brass, enabling you to install copper pigtails at each junction
box, outlet box, etc. It's an Alladin product, comes in a small
vial (like a pill bottle) all coiled up with a wee tiny bottle of
flux. Use sparingly and heat with a propane torch. What works here
may not work there (where you are). Check with your electrical guy
about possible fixes and the costs.

You got some very good advice in another post. Call up a local
electrician and get his best opinion.

Pete

[David F. Eisan]

Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.

[Patriarch]

"David F. Eisan" wrote in
:

Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all
my tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a
little bit of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to
certify in writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to
aluminum wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.



What most of the other guys have said rings true.

Here's what I think: Your insurance company wants someone to tell them
everything is all right, and that they aren't going to be on the hook
for a bunch of costs. You want not to be on the hook for a bunch of
costs, AND, you want your new-to-you house to be your home for a good
long while. And we're talking lots more money than a couple of good
used Unisaws here.

Ask them to give you the names of two or three good home inspector folks
with whom they've worked. Call those folks, and hire one that seems to
know your area and type of home building standards. Here, in
California, it's several hundred dollars (when I did it last, 9 years
ago), but each time, it's been money very well spent.

Over the last twenty years or so, when I've sold property, I've paid for
such an inspection before listing the property for sale, so that I'd
know what would be 'on the table'. Another set of eyes, preferably
unbiased, is what I'm looking for.

And EVERY time we bought a place, we had it professionally inspected.

The home inspector should be someone who just inspects, and writes up,
not someone who is looking to do the repair/replace/upgrade work. In
our modest experience, these folks are typically older craftspeople,
with decades of experience, doing lighter grade work, and using their
heads, rather than their backs.

It's not perfect. Never is. But informed is much better than
surprised.

On insurance companies: In 35 years, I've had one company, and four
agents. One of whom was my father, until he retired. Find a good one,
and stay with them, as best you can. They can be an excellent resource.

Best of luck with the new home.

Patriarch

[B A R R Y]

Dave Balderstone wrote:


Call an electrician, explain what your insurance company wants, arrange
with the current owner for an inspection, pay the electrician, get a
report.


In some real estate markets, I'd ask the seller to credit the bill from
the sale price. G

[Markem]

On Tue, 29 May 2007 22:23:04 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"Jim" wrote in message
et...

"David F. Eian" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,


If there is any aluminum wiring in the house, whatever you paid was too
much.
It hasn't been used around here in over 40 years because too many people
reported sparks and flames coming out of the convenience outlets.

Thus, I would not need an insurance agent to tell me not to buy that
house.


There is a simple remedy to fix a house with aluminum wiring.

Yea but gasoline is over 3 buck a gallon......

Mark

[Swingman]

"Patriarch" wrote in message

And EVERY time we bought a place, we had it professionally inspected.

Good advice. Here in Texas they're licensed, which generally makes for a
better inspection.

Even then there is often some CYA involved, so you must still have the
knowledge to separate the wheat from the chaff. I welcome third party
inspections of new homes, but always inform the prospective buyer that there
will likely be some items which will be subject to discussion and not
ultimately addressed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

[HotRdd]

David
Call your local electrician or even your local electrical inspector.
I've had houses with knob and tube wiring certified this way without to many
changes being made. Obviously if you get the chance update the electrical as
you move through the house. If your electrical inspector is as good as mine
"just south of you" he'll bend over backwards to help.




"David F. Eisan" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.

[RayV]

On May 30, 12:01 am, "David F. Eisan"
wrote:
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.

Although I never tried I can't imagine an electrician certifying that
a home's wiring is 'safe'. They may be able to check that it was
installed correctly and pull the outlets & switches to check the
connections and make sure proper fixtures are installed. What they
can't do is check every connection in the house without tearing into
the walls. The Al wire has a high failure rate at connections and
stress point (bends).

Read here for more info:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

If you don't have to have the house I would pass on the deal.

[Nova]

wrote:
Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.




Around here, you are required to disclose any defects or banned use
materials such as Ureaformadahyde foam or aluminum wiring and any
other major defects. Aluminum wire was in general use about 35/40
yrs ago and quickly fell out of favor because of the overheating/fire
problems

The wire itself is not at issue. It's the possible splices into it
and the devices at the end of each run. The lamp sockets and wall
plugs use brass screws that cause the problems when electrolysis
occurs and over time wires become loose under the screws - high
resistance = hot spots = fires.

There is a low temp aluminum solder that will join aluminum to
copper/brass, enabling you to install copper pigtails at each junction
box, outlet box, etc. It's an Alladin product, comes in a small
vial (like a pill bottle) all coiled up with a wee tiny bottle of
flux. Use sparingly and heat with a propane torch. What works here
may not work there (where you are). Check with your electrical guy
about possible fixes and the costs.



Yep, every outlet, fixture and splice. It's expensive, time consuming
and you'll never be sure you got them all. I'd pass on the house.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

[JOE MOHNIKE]

LOOK FOR ANOTHER HOUSE...........OR REPLACE ALL OF THE WIREING
I AM AN INSURANCE AGENT.......I REPRESENT OVER 40 COMPANIES THAT WILL WRITE
HOMEOWNERS AND DWELLING FIRE INSURANCE. NONE OF THEM WILL ACCEPT A
HOUSE/DWELLING WITH ALUMINUM WIREING.
THE ONLY COMPANIES THAT WILL PLACE THE COVERAGE ARE SUBSTANDARD COMPANIES
WHICH WILL CHARGE 3-4 TIMES THE PREMIUM WITH REDUCED COVERAGE.
"David F. Eisan" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.

[Leon]

"JOE MOHNIKE" wrote in message
om...
LOOK FOR ANOTHER HOUSE...........OR REPLACE ALL OF THE WIREING
I AM AN INSURANCE AGENT.......I REPRESENT OVER 40 COMPANIES THAT WILL
WRITE
HOMEOWNERS AND DWELLING FIRE INSURANCE. NONE OF THEM WILL ACCEPT A
HOUSE/DWELLING WITH ALUMINUM WIREING.
THE ONLY COMPANIES THAT WILL PLACE THE COVERAGE ARE SUBSTANDARD COMPANIES
WHICH WILL CHARGE 3-4 TIMES THE PREMIUM WITH REDUCED COVERAGE.


In you are in the US, that is a load of crap. I know plenty of owners of
these houses with that type wiring and insurance is normally priced. My
sister owns one.

[Scott Lurndal]

"JOE MOHNIKE" writes:
LOOK FOR ANOTHER HOUSE...........OR REPLACE ALL OF THE WIREING
I AM AN INSURANCE AGENT.......I REPRESENT OVER 40 COMPANIES THAT WILL WRITE
HOMEOWNERS AND DWELLING FIRE INSURANCE. NONE OF THEM WILL ACCEPT A
HOUSE/DWELLING WITH ALUMINUM WIREING.
THE ONLY COMPANIES THAT WILL PLACE THE COVERAGE ARE SUBSTANDARD COMPANIES
WHICH WILL CHARGE 3-4 TIMES THE PREMIUM WITH REDUCED COVERAGE.

jeez buddy, no need to shout.

Entire neighborhoods have AL wiring and have no difficulty getting
insurance from all the majors.

scott

[NoOne N Particular]

David F. Eisan wrote:
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.


I have been reading this thread and started wondering if all of this discussion
applies to the service feed into the house. My 20 year old house has a 125A
service from the street that is aluminum.

Wayne

[Nova]

NoOne N Particular wrote:


I have been reading this thread and started wondering if all of this
discussion applies to the service feed into the house. My 20 year old
house has a 125A service from the street that is aluminum.

Wayne

Aluminium service entrance cable is common and allowed providing that a
listed anti-oxidant compound is used the aluminum conductor
terminations. (NEC 110.14)

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

[Lew Hodgett]

David F. Eisan wrote:


I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all
my tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a
little bit of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to
certify in writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to
aluminum wiring, and how did things work out?

Having been directly involved in the electrical industry during the
big bru-ha-ha involving aluminum wiring for residential applications
some 30 years ago, I'd probably do one of two things:

1) Walk away.
2) Deduct $50K to cover a rewire.

Lew

[Lew Hodgett]

9.9 Fingers wrote:

6.) And no disrespect what-so-ever to Mr. Hodgett; but it would be
one HUGE
house that it would take $50K to rewire. In this area, a 1500
square foot
ranch home can have all the aluminum wiring replaced for
*considerably* less
than half that amount.

No disrespect at all, just being safe.

Here in SoCal, the median priced house is about $600K, a 1500 sq ft
house would be a tad more.

You bet it is ridiculous, but it is life in SoCal.

Lew

[9.9 Fingers]

"David F. Eisan" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.


Hi David,

Some comments from a guy with 30 years as a licensed electrician, working in
the eastern Missouri area.

1.) As stated by a few others, the problem with aluminum is *mostly* at the
connections to the receptacles, with lesser issues at switches and even
fewer at lighting fixtures. In the US the National Electrical Code (NEC)
requires that all devices (switches, receptacles, etc) connected to aluminum
wire be manufactured specifically for that purpose. If a home has aluminum
wiring that is installed in accordance with the NEC, then I see no reason to
be fearful. We have *thousands* of homes in this area completely or
substantially wired with aluminum wire.

The use of "copper-only" devices and/or improper connection techniques
accounts for the majority of "aluminum wire problems" that I have seen.
And, in the majority of aluminum failures I have seen, the installation
technique was at least as much the cause as the improper device. During
upgrades, I have removed copper-only devices that have been properly
connected to aluminum wire for 30+ years with no sign of overheating of any
other signs of deterioration. (By properly connected, I'm referring to the
connection *technique*, not the fact that connecting aluminum wire to copper
devices is "properly connected".)

2.) Replacing all the copper-only switches and receptacles with those
manufactured for use with aluminum wire will go a L O N G way toward
improving the reliability and safety of the wiring. We do this for
approximately $17 per device, (labor and materials included). Also, an
examination of all wiring that appears to have been added after the home was
built is strongly suggested. This is because it is possible, and even
likely that this later-installed wiring may be copper. Copper/Aluminum
splices require some extra care and speciality wirenuts to make a safe,
secure splice.

3.) In the minority of instances when you can't locate a device specified as
suitable for connection to aluminum wiring, then the next best practice is
to make a copper/aluminum splice using a short (6-8") piece of copper wire,
common called a "pig tail" and the proper splicing materials and techniques.
Then connect this pig tail to the non-aluminum rated device. In the US,
this method is accepted by the NEC, but it is not the preferred method. We
use this mostly for connecting GFI receptacles and other speciality devices
to aluminuum. In our area we can't buy GFI receptacles manufactured for
direct connection to aluminum wire. Also many dimmers and other electronic
devices, specify connect to copper only. And nearly all lighting fixtures
either specify copper only or come with a copper pig tail already attached.
There are some special purple wirenuts available for connecting copper and
aluminum wires

4.) Insurance companies can make your life miserable with this issue. In my
area we have a couple insurance companies who make a huge deal of aluminum
wiring. But, the majority of them want the house in compliance with the
electrical code; and if it meets the code, the type of wiring doesn't
prevent getting insurance.

5.) Aluminum service entrances are still the "standard" in much of the US,
and properly installed, meet the NEC and all the safety standards. I
haven't seen a metersocket or main electrical panel manufactured in the last
30 years that wasn't listed for use with aluminum service wiring.

6.) And no disrespect what-so-ever to Mr. Hodgett; but it would be one HUGE
house that it would take $50K to rewire. In this area, a 1500 square foot
ranch home can have all the aluminum wiring replaced for *considerably* less
than half that amount. We've recently seen prices in the $10K-$15K range,
(approximately $10-12/ square foot) and that includes a new electrical
service. Of course as others have cautioned, YMMV. ;)

Gary Kasten, licensed electrician

[9.9 Fingers]

"Lew Hodgett"

[snip]

Here in SoCal, the median priced house is about $600K, a 1500 sq ft house
would be a tad more.

You bet it is ridiculous, but it is life in SoCal.

Lew

Lew,

Holy Crap! If that's what they get, maybe $50K is right. I had no idea a
median home was FIVE times more expensive in Cal than here in the midwest.
My apologies for even questioning your numbers.

Is this because of the cost of the land, or do building materials really
cost that much more on the left coast?

Gary K

[Lew Hodgett]

9.9 Fingers wrote:

Holy Crap! If that's what they get, maybe $50K is right.

A resi contractor will charge about $70/hour for a strip and stuff it guy.

More smarts, higher rate.

I had no idea a
median home was FIVE times more expensive in Cal than here in the
midwest.

It's crazy.

A 4 bedroom, 2.5 bath, 3,000 sq ft house in a decent neighborhood,
will start about $1.2Meg.

My apologies for even questioning your numbers.

None required.

Is this because of the cost of the land, or do building materials
really
cost that much more on the left coast?

A little of both.

Earthquake specs increase construction costs somewhat; however, you
don't get a very well insulated building or a roof system designed to
carry a snow load.

The real problem is land availability and lots of people.

In 1990, the population of California was about 30 million, equally
divided between north and south.

Currently, the population of California is about 36 million and
growing, still equally divided between north and south, which BTW,
makes it the most populated state in the US.

There is no end of growth in sight, it is only going to get worse.

SFWIW, the population of SoCal is larger than 24 of the other 49 states.

Lew

[Charlie Self]

On May 31, 12:08�am, Lew Hodgett wrote:
9.9 Fingers wrote:

* 6.) And no disrespect what-so-ever to Mr. Hodgett; but it would be
one HUGE
* house that it would take $50K to rewire. *In this area, a 1500
square foot
* ranch home can have all the aluminum wiring replaced for
*considerably* less
* than half that amount.

No disrespect at all, just being safe.

Here in SoCal, the median priced house is about $600K, a 1500 sq ft
house would be a tad more.

You bet it is ridiculous, but it is life in SoCal.

Lew

Jeez, man. My 1200 SF house (900 SF finished basement) and 1200 SF
shop with 800 SF junk storage shed on 1-3/4 acres is probably worth
more than the $150,000 they'd bring here, too.

Hey, it's a dump, but it has one redeeming virtue: no mortgage.

[RayV]

On May 30, 8:47 pm, NoOne N Particular wrote:
David F. Eisan wrote:
Hello everyone,

I put in an offer on a house last week (one with enough room for all my
tools!). One of the conditions was insurance. I have run into a little bit
of a problem. My Insurance company wants an electrician to certify in
writing that everything is "safe".

Anyone know how I get this done? The offer clock is ticking...

Who has had problems with their insurance agent with regards to aluminum
wiring, and how did things work out?

Thanks,

David.

I have been reading this thread and started wondering if all of this discussion
applies to the service feed into the house. My 20 year old house has a 125A
service from the street that is aluminum.

Wayne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The stranded Al wire doesn't have the same propensity for failure as
'solid conducter' Al, I'm not a physicist so I don't know why. It is
still very common to use stranded Al for dryers, ranges and AC units.
And most, if not all, of those transmission lines running over your
head are Al.

I beLIEve the NEC has no prohibitions against solid conducter Al
branch cicuit wiring but some regional and local codes do.

[RayV]

On May 31, 12:48 am, "9.9 Fingers"
wrote:
snip
3.) In the minority of instances when you can't locate a device specified as
suitable for connection to aluminum wiring, then the next best practice is
to make a copper/aluminum splice using a short (6-8") piece of copper wire,
common called a "pig tail" and the proper splicing materials and techniques.
snip
Gary Kasten, licensed electrician

Gary this is the first reasonable post I have seen on this issue here
or in alt.home.repair

Do you use the Ideal wire nuts, the 3M Scotchlock or the new Alumiconn
connectors?

http://www.alumiconn.com/

[Doug Miller]

In article , NoOne N Particular wrote:

I have been reading this thread and started wondering if all of this discussion
applies to the service feed into the house. My 20 year old house has a 125A
service from the street that is aluminum.

Don't worry about that at all. Service entrance equipment is rated for
connection to aluminum wire, and so are the crimp connectors that the linemen
use to install the service drop.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[Lew Hodgett]

RayV wrote:

The stranded Al wire doesn't have the same propensity for failure as
'solid conducter' Al, I'm not a physicist so I don't know why.

It has to do with what is known as "cold flow".

When you make a connection using solid conductor Al, you have a good
solid mechanical connection; however, the Al oxidizes which increases
electrical resistance.

When current flows thru the wire, the Al wire heats up slightly and
the Al wire softens slightly and begins to flow or ooze, thus reducing
the amount of clamping force provided by the termination which causes
increased electrical resistance.

Increased resistance causes increased "cold flow" which causes
increased resistance, etc, etc, ultimately leading to the wire
melting, and then a fire.

BTW, the wire usually melts about 2"-4" from the termination, usually
up inside the insulation. Don't have a clue why.

There are many variables to the above process, so the amount of time
req'd varies greatly.

Infrequently used circuits may not malfunction for many years, perhaps
never, but you never know.

Stranded Al cable OTOH, uses special terminations, potted with "sheep
dip" to prevent Al oxide from forming, and special crimping tools to
insure a good termination.

It is a totally different world, but the increased termination cost is
quickly recovered by using lower cost Al vs copper for large cable
services.

Same can not be said for small, 30A max, branch circuits found in a
home, for example.

Lew

[Leon]

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
hlink.net...
RayV wrote:

The stranded Al wire doesn't have the same propensity for failure as
'solid conducter' Al, I'm not a physicist so I don't know why.

It has to do with what is known as "cold flow".

When you make a connection using solid conductor Al, you have a good solid
mechanical connection; however, the Al oxidizes which increases electrical
resistance.

When current flows thru the wire, the Al wire heats up slightly and the Al
wire softens slightly and begins to flow or ooze, thus reducing the amount
of clamping force provided by the termination which causes increased
electrical resistanc


I suspect that large amounts of current which will cause aluminum cable to
jump will cause loose connections also. Years ago I was using a set of
aluminum cable jumper cables to jump start a car. Every time the other car
cranked, the cables would jump and get warm.

[Doug Miller]

In article k.net, Lew Hodgett wrote:
RayV wrote:

The stranded Al wire doesn't have the same propensity for failure as
'solid conducter' Al, I'm not a physicist so I don't know why.

It has to do with what is known as "cold flow".

When you make a connection using solid conductor Al, you have a good
solid mechanical connection; however, the Al oxidizes which increases
electrical resistance.

When current flows thru the wire, the Al wire heats up slightly and
the Al wire softens slightly and begins to flow or ooze, thus reducing
the amount of clamping force provided by the termination which causes
increased electrical resistance.

Increased resistance causes increased "cold flow" which causes
increased resistance, etc, etc, ultimately leading to the wire
melting, and then a fire.

You are confusing two different phenomena.

Cold flow refers to the tendency of a material to deform under mechanical
stress. Period. This is unrelated to the cyclic expansion and contraction due
to temperature changes as electric current is applied and removed. Cold flow
will occur in any overtightened connection, even if current is never applied.

Cold flow is a particular problem with aluminum wire because the stress levels
required to produce cold flow in aluminum can be readily achieved with hand
tools. Proper tightening of lugs with aluminum wire requires the use of a
torque wrench calibrated for torques measured in inch-pounds (or, of course,
the metric equivalent). Any overtorqued connection will loosen in time as the
material flows away from the stress.

Aluminum and copper both expand and contract as they are heated and cooled.
Aluminum, however, does so to a much greater extent than copper, and an
*under*torqued connection will *also* loosen in time due to this effect. You
correctly noted the increased resistance that results from the oxidation of
the surface of the aluminum. It should also be noted that this is not a
problem with copper wire, because copper oxide is a conductor of electricity.
Not quite as good as metallic copper, but close. Aluminum oxide, on the other
hand, is a semiconductor.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[9.9 Fingers]

"RayV" wrote in message

[snip]
Do you use the Ideal wire nuts, the 3M Scotchlock or the new Alumiconn
connectors?

Genereally I use the Ideal purple wirenits. Never cared much for
Scotchlocks and wasn't aware that 3-M was again making a copper/aluminum
wirenut.

When joining copper to aluminum I clean and splice all the aluminum
conductors first, and then add the copper pigtail last. This gives the
greatest amount of aluminum-to-aluminum contact and the copper wire is also
in the closest contact to the anti-ox compound that is preloaded into the
wirenut. Seems to work quite well, and doesn't occupy any more space in the
j-box than necessary.

Gary K

[Mike M]

LOL, I live with the microsoft millionaires, and houses sell for over
700,000 around me. My little dump is paid for and the County doesn't
think my older structure appreciates in value. No complaints from me,
but one neighbor took a picture of the old bathtub used as a horse
waterer as grounds for a property tax reduction. Now they are
starting to complain about insects from the livestock. Dumb F'ers
just don't get it. Of course this being the socialist state of
Wa. who knows what will happen.

Mike M
On 31 May 2007 03:17:53 -0700, Charlie Self
wrote:

On May 31, 12:08?am, Lew Hodgett wrote:
9.9 Fingers wrote:

6.) And no disrespect what-so-ever to Mr. Hodgett; but it would be
one HUGE
house that it would take $50K to rewire. n this area, a 1500
square foot
ranch home can have all the aluminum wiring replaced for
*considerably* less
than half that amount.

No disrespect at all, just being safe.

Here in SoCal, the median priced house is about $600K, a 1500 sq ft
house would be a tad more.

You bet it is ridiculous, but it is life in SoCal.

Lew

Jeez, man. My 1200 SF house (900 SF finished basement) and 1200 SF
shop with 800 SF junk storage shed on 1-3/4 acres is probably worth
more than the $150,000 they'd bring here, too.

Hey, it's a dump, but it has one redeeming virtue: no mortgage.

[Rob Mills]

I wouldn't walk away, I'd run as fast as I could. There were a few houses
wired with aluminum in our area back in the 60's but they soon made it
illegal to use the stuff.

I never owned a house wired with aluminum but have had houses that
have had aluminum drops from pole to house. My previous home had to have the
special aluminum to copper connectors replaced every 3 or 4
years as they would burn out.

We moved several years ago to a 50 yr old house that had the old screw in
fuses so we had a new 200 amp panel installed. When the power company came
out to install a new heaver aluminum drop they did not
use the special aluminum to copper connectors as they had in years
past, they used husky u-bolts to connect the aluminum drop to our
copper line, said the old connectors were too troublesome. RM~

[Mike Marlow]

"Rob Mills" wrote in message
...
I wouldn't walk away, I'd run as fast as I could. There were a few houses
wired with aluminum in our area back in the 60's but they soon made it
illegal to use the stuff.

I never owned a house wired with aluminum but have had houses that
have had aluminum drops from pole to house. My previous home had to have
the
special aluminum to copper connectors replaced every 3 or 4
years as they would burn out.

We moved several years ago to a 50 yr old house that had the old screw in
fuses so we had a new 200 amp panel installed. When the power company came
out to install a new heaver aluminum drop they did not
use the special aluminum to copper connectors as they had in years
past, they used husky u-bolts to connect the aluminum drop to our
copper line, said the old connectors were too troublesome. RM~



Where are you from Rob? Around here (northeast), everything is aluminum
from the pole to the main breaker. Copper does not start until you run
branch circuits.

--

-Mike-

[Rob Mills]

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Where are you from Rob? Around here (northeast), everything is aluminum
from the pole to the main breaker.

Guess I didn't make myself clear. That's the way it is here (Tulsa), they
use aluminum drops to the panel but can't go past the panel. They (power co)
quit using the special aluminum to copper connectors due to their failure
rate.
They quit using aluminum inside of houses years ago. Not real sure how long
they did allow it but it wasn't for a very long period of time back in the 60's.
RM~

[Brian Henderson]

On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 08:35:35 -0500, "Rob Mills"
wrote:

They quit using aluminum inside of houses years ago. Not real sure how long
they did allow it but it wasn't for a very long period of time back in the 60's.

Unfortunately, my parent's house, which was built in the mid-60s, has
all aluminum internal wiring. The dining room has started to fail in
parts, the light switch to the ceiling lights doesn't work anymore, I
ran an extension plug for the lights to an independent outlet so my
mother can get light but really, the whole house needs to be
completely rewired with copper.

I'm just afraid that I'll get tapped for the job if I suggest it.

[Lew Hodgett]

Brian Henderson wrote:

Unfortunately, my parent's house, which was built in the mid-60s, has
all aluminum internal wiring. The dining room has started to fail in
parts, the light switch to the ceiling lights doesn't work anymore, I
ran an extension plug for the lights to an independent outlet so my
mother can get light but really, the whole house needs to be
completely rewired with copper.

I'm just afraid that I'll get tapped for the job if I suggest it.

I don't mean to be macabre; however, a rewire beats the hell out of
the possible alternate, a premature funeral.

Lew

[Rod & Betty Jo]

Brian Henderson wrote:

Unfortunately, my parent's house, which was built in the mid-60s, has
all aluminum internal wiring. The dining room has started to fail in
parts, the light switch to the ceiling lights doesn't work anymore, I
ran an extension plug for the lights to an independent outlet so my
mother can get light but really, the whole house needs to be
completely rewired with copper.

I'm just afraid that I'll get tapped for the job if I suggest it.

While I've had no direct experience with Aluminum wiring but I've read
enough to think rewiring isn't needed nor necessary....The wire itself isn't
the problem just the connections......however leaving faulty switch, plug or
junction boxes without proper Alum/copper terminals is a fire waiting to
happen......not to mention independent of wiring type switches etc. will
fail over time or with repeated use.....if a new switch didn't deal with the
faulty light then a junction box would be a likely culprit...back to that
dangerous thing......anyway if you can't by choice, skills or code just
swapping out receptacles, switches and junction boxes isn't anywhere near
the cost of a rewire. Rod