I have an exterior door that was varnished. I want to paint it the same
color of the trim on the house with latex paint.
What preparation do I need to do?
TIA
Max

"Max" wrote in message
om...
I have an exterior door that was varnished. I want to paint it the same
color of the trim on the house with latex paint.
What preparation do I need to do?
TIA
Max

Sand it.
Dave



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"Teamcasa" wrote

"Max" wrote

I have an exterior door that was varnished. I want to paint it the same
color of the trim on the house with latex paint.
What preparation do I need to do?
TIA
Max


Sand it.
Dave

That's it? Thanks. Consider it done.

Max

Max:

I would probably do more than just sand. But then I have to put out a
warrantable product so my take may be different than some. Solvent
based finishes often do not lend themselves willingly to adhesion of
other products, especially after they have aged, and worse still if
they are damaged.

Before anyone craps a banana, this of course excludes all build
finishes. But in this case, we are talking varnish.

As a sidebar, if the clear finish (no matter what it is) is dried out,
cracked, discolored, crumbly, or the wood underneath is discolored, the
finish is gone. All you are seeing when the surface is in this
condition is the last 5% of the finish, just the part that hasn't
fallen off. In this case, simply sanding off the crumbles won't work,
you must strip and sand to get to a good bondable substrate.

Anyway, it begs the question Max, how do you know it's varnish? When
we refinish a door, we have found that most homeowners and many
contractors use polyurethane for original finish, and then for
refinish. If it is a homeowner job you are looking at, you can almost
bet it was poly. Varnish and poly are two different animals, and if it
is poly, you should count on stripping the door before painting.

Me, I would strip anyway to be absolutely sure, especially since you
are probably talking about one side only. The oils, resins, and
hardners in the varnish (if that is what it is) have no doubt
penetrated the wood over the years, so there are things in the wood
that could kill your adhesion. And since you are going back over it
with paint, you wouldn't have to have the surface "perfect" before
painting, especially if you go back with oil based paint.

If you want to go latex, strip, coat the stripped side with KILZ 2 to
seal the resins in the wood and to assist in bonding, sand lightly
when dry, vacuum up the particles left from sanding, then put a couple
of coats of paint on it.

If you don't want to strip, clean the door up, sand the snot out of it,
vacuum up the particles, wipe down with thinner, seal it with the
original KILZ (for bonding purposes) and have your paint store match a
quart of oil based urethane to your latex color. It may be cheaper
(stripper for latex = $20; quart of custom mix oil base = $12) and
easier to avoid stripping and just to bite the bullet and buy a quart
of oil based paint. A couple of coats and you are finished.

Hope this helps.

Robert

On Tue, 2 May 2006 15:03:25 -0700, "Teamcasa"
wrote:


"Max" wrote in message
. com...
I have an exterior door that was varnished. I want to paint it the same
color of the trim on the house with latex paint.
What preparation do I need to do?
TIA
Max

Sand it.


Or:
Wipe it down with solvent to clean the foreign oils off and dewax it
(some people do wax the door)
Then wipe it down with denatured alcohol to get the last bit of
solvent off. Solvent leaves a residue.
Then sand it.
Then wipe it down with a damp sponge to get the dust off.
More denatured alcohol to get the water and water borne crap and the
dust you missed off.
Use a decent oil base primer to bite the sanded varnish and give the
latex a good bite.
Then two coats of latex. After a year or two, the latex may still be
stuck to the door or maybe not.

The door, unlike a wall, will get substantial abuse from kicking,
touching, licking (dogs, kids), staining, etc. Why not go with an
oil base paint the same color as the trim?

Pete

On 2 May 2006 18:04:04 -0700, wrote:

Max:

I would probably do more than just sand. But then I have to put out a
warrantable product so my take may be different than some. Solvent
based finishes often do not lend themselves willingly to adhesion of
other products, especially after they have aged, and worse still if
they are damaged.

Before anyone craps a banana, this of course excludes all build
finishes. But in this case, we are talking varnish.

As a sidebar, if the clear finish (no matter what it is) is dried out,
cracked, discolored, crumbly, or the wood underneath is discolored, the
finish is gone. All you are seeing when the surface is in this
condition is the last 5% of the finish, just the part that hasn't
fallen off. In this case, simply sanding off the crumbles won't work,
you must strip and sand to get to a good bondable substrate.

Anyway, it begs the question Max, how do you know it's varnish? When
we refinish a door, we have found that most homeowners and many
contractors use polyurethane for original finish, and then for
refinish. If it is a homeowner job you are looking at, you can almost
bet it was poly. Varnish and poly are two different animals, and if it
is poly, you should count on stripping the door before painting.

Me, I would strip anyway to be absolutely sure, especially since you
are probably talking about one side only. The oils, resins, and
hardners in the varnish (if that is what it is) have no doubt
penetrated the wood over the years, so there are things in the wood
that could kill your adhesion. And since you are going back over it
with paint, you wouldn't have to have the surface "perfect" before
painting, especially if you go back with oil based paint.

If you want to go latex, strip, coat the stripped side with KILZ 2 to
seal the resins in the wood and to assist in bonding, sand lightly
when dry, vacuum up the particles left from sanding, then put a couple
of coats of paint on it.

If you don't want to strip, clean the door up, sand the snot out of it,
vacuum up the particles, wipe down with thinner, seal it with the
original KILZ (for bonding purposes) and have your paint store match a
quart of oil based urethane to your latex color. It may be cheaper
(stripper for latex = $20; quart of custom mix oil base = $12) and
easier to avoid stripping and just to bite the bullet and buy a quart
of oil based paint. A couple of coats and you are finished.

Hope this helps.

Robert


You've said a mouthful. Being the guy I am, I had to learn the hard
way. I too wanted to use latex over a "varnished" surface at my
house. In my case, it was the risers on some interior steps. In no
way shape or form was that paint (Sherwin Williams superpaint) going
to adhere.

I ended up using a heat gun and stripping it all off. It was a time
consuming PITA, but the results after sanding the scraped surface is
perfect. A beautifully smooth surface with excellent adhesion.

I say strip the old surface in whatever manner you want then sand 'er
smooth. Then apply the paint.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Max:

I would probably do more than just sand. But then I have to put out a
warrantable product so my take may be different than some. Solvent
based finishes often do not lend themselves willingly to adhesion of
other products, especially after they have aged, and worse still if
they are damaged.

Before anyone craps a banana, this of course excludes all build
finishes. But in this case, we are talking varnish.

As a sidebar, if the clear finish (no matter what it is) is dried out,
cracked, discolored, crumbly, or the wood underneath is discolored, the
finish is gone. All you are seeing when the surface is in this
condition is the last 5% of the finish, just the part that hasn't
fallen off. In this case, simply sanding off the crumbles won't work,
you must strip and sand to get to a good bondable substrate.

Anyway, it begs the question Max, how do you know it's varnish? When
we refinish a door, we have found that most homeowners and many
contractors use polyurethane for original finish, and then for
refinish. If it is a homeowner job you are looking at, you can almost
bet it was poly. Varnish and poly are two different animals, and if it
is poly, you should count on stripping the door before painting.

Me, I would strip anyway to be absolutely sure, especially since you
are probably talking about one side only. The oils, resins, and
hardners in the varnish (if that is what it is) have no doubt
penetrated the wood over the years, so there are things in the wood
that could kill your adhesion. And since you are going back over it
with paint, you wouldn't have to have the surface "perfect" before
painting, especially if you go back with oil based paint.

If you want to go latex, strip, coat the stripped side with KILZ 2 to
seal the resins in the wood and to assist in bonding, sand lightly
when dry, vacuum up the particles left from sanding, then put a couple
of coats of paint on it.

If you don't want to strip, clean the door up, sand the snot out of it,
vacuum up the particles, wipe down with thinner, seal it with the
original KILZ (for bonding purposes) and have your paint store match a
quart of oil based urethane to your latex color. It may be cheaper
(stripper for latex = $20; quart of custom mix oil base = $12) and
easier to avoid stripping and just to bite the bullet and buy a quart
of oil based paint. A couple of coats and you are finished.

Hope this helps.

Robert

Thanks for the info, Robert.
I know it's varnish because I applied it. The house has 5 exterior doors. I
sprayed them about 10 years ago with McCloskey's Marine varnish and they
really look good.
The one I want to paint the color of the house trim is at the back of the
(attached) garage. I'm not adverse to stripping the door but I didn't want
to if I didn't have to.
And I don't mind spending whatever I have to for a good finish. The paint
I used on the trim (Glidden Endurance) seems to be holding up very well.
I'm wondering about the durability of an oil based paint. What's your
verdict?

Max

"George Max" wrote

You've said a mouthful. Being the guy I am, I had to learn the hard
way. I too wanted to use latex over a "varnished" surface at my
house. In my case, it was the risers on some interior steps. In no
way shape or form was that paint (Sherwin Williams superpaint) going
to adhere.

I ended up using a heat gun and stripping it all off. It was a time
consuming PITA, but the results after sanding the scraped surface is
perfect. A beautifully smooth surface with excellent adhesion.

I say strip the old surface in whatever manner you want then sand 'er
smooth. Then apply the paint.

Thanks, George.
I had an idea that stripping might be required but I didn't want to if I
didn't have to. On the other hand, I want a good finish and I'm willing to
do whatever I have to do to get it. I have a good heat gun and I can get
stripper. Which do you think would be better? I'm not fond of stripper
because of the fumes and the mess but if it's what I have to do, I'm game.

Max

Max wrote:

And I don't mind spending whatever I have to for a good finish. The
paint
I used on the trim (Glidden Endurance) seems to be holding up very
well.
I'm wondering about the durability of an oil based paint. What's your
verdict?


Recently, Glidden latex went head to head with several different
paints and won the overall comparison due to its UV resistance, the
ability to be washed, and color retention. I liked Glidden paint, and
used it exclusively for years and NEVER had one bit of problem with it.
It was considered old fashioned by some as it was clay based as
opposed to the powder based stuff, but I liked it, and more importantly
so did my clients. Never had one complaint with Glidden.

But the local lumberyard that sends me a lot of business pushes
Coronado. I really like the top end of their line for spraying and
rolling. It has so much ammonia in it that it kills anything the power
washer doesn't take off, and it penetrates the wood and old paint
really well. I don't like to brush it as it is like bubble gum on the
brush after about 15 minutes time. This is not workable for painting
a house full of door frames or a 15 panel exterior door. For brushing
outdoors and smooth trim, I like the top end of Sherwin Williams (700
line?). It smooths like glass with a good brush.

But Max, you have brought another issue to light. If YOU sprayed them
with McCloskey's and you say they now look good, you putting in the
last piece of the puzzle that would make my decision. McCloskey's is a
pretty good finish, and I think their strong suit is supposed to be
their marine line. So if you say it looks good (as in good shape),
chances of adhesion from ANY finish being what you want (10 more
years?) to these doors are almost none. McCloskey's has something like
30% resin in it, so it is a heavily resined product, meant to be
industrial strength. I personally don't think sanding would do it, and
with all the work involved to get it off, you would be faster to strip.
Sanding would just expose fresh, hard varnish.

If it was my house, I would put on oil, and here's what I would do.

Take the door off and put it in the shade so it stays cool. Put it on
some saw horses put over a cheap tarp (I buy mone at Big Lots - 6'X8'
is something like $2). Clean off the surface with some thinner. When
it is dry, tape the edge of the door up with some good masking tape,
NOT the blue stuff. Apply Bix K3 (the orange can) or better as
directed.

This is an old timer's tip, and it will take the sting out of the
stripping. When you see the finish starting to bubble, and you are
ready to hit it with the plastic putty knife, don't. Put on a couple
of handfuls of sawdust in the area you are working first
and literally scrub the door with a stiff nylon brush. Keep the
sawdust in the brush, and buy a couple of different brushes at the
dollar store to make sure you have the one you want. The sawdust is
the tip here, and it is worth its weight in gold. The sawdust will do
three things; it acts as a pore and nook and cranny cleaner, a mild
abrasive, and it will pick up the spent stripper with a lot of the old
finish attached. Work your door in thirds, and the door will be pretty
close to or actually dry at the first third by the time you get to the
end. You won't believe what that sawdust will do to the loosened paint
and how much it speeds and cleans up this nasy process.

Brush off any loose sawdust. With only a coat or two of finish, you
shouldn't need to do this more than once if you are patient enough to
let the Bix work (always hard for me, no matter how many times I do
it). Sand as needed to make you happy, remembering that since it will
be painted you don't have to have it perfect.

Then I would put two to three coats of urethane oil enamel on it. No
matter whose brush it is in application, no door ever looks as good as
when it is sprayed by a good hand. At this juncture, I would like to
mention Mike Marlow, who really helped me get my finishes first rate.
If you are following this thread, thanks again, Mike. Anyway, take
the door off and spray it.

I use urethane oil as opposed to alkyd as it is easier for me to spray,
and it seems to dry as closed to the same hardness as the old lead
based paints as any of the finshes out there. It can also be tinted
just about any color. For me, I shoot Coronado (the only one I could
find that I like that comes in quarts!!) with about an ounce of Japan
drier and an ounce of thinner for 30 ozs of material. It will dry like
glass, sticks like hell, and you can get another coat on the door in 4
hours on an 80 degree day, not the 8 the recommend. So you could two
coat in a day (depending on how you do it) and then the following day
put a final coat on it in the morning and hang it that night. I always
use the Japan drier as it makes the final finish harder, and of course
it makes the finish catalyse faster. The thinner amount depends on the
temp, and if it above the middle 80s, I usually don't thin. I am
putting these details in hoping you still have the rig you sprayed the
door with in the first place. I am using a high pressure auto touch up
gun which works great for me.

Of course, YMMV. And as always, depending on your rig you may not want
to do anything to it, just follow the manufacturer's requirements.

The door can be hung when it is really dry, and if you handle it right,
you could do it all in a weekend, weather permitting.
Strip and sand one morning (2 hours), then apply coat #1. Few hours
later, coat #2. Next morning, coat #3. Hang as late as possible that
evening.

In case you haven't used some of today's coating for a while, you
should know that the total dry and hardness of the door will not be
100% for about 20 days. The door will be dried, but not cured. So
don't test out the scrubbability with 409 when you get some grease on
it from reinstalling those old locks. Mild soapy water is always best
anyway, but a must for about three weeks.

My only concern would be this; you will be in the same boat as you are
now if you want to refinish this door at a later time. So if you
change the paint color on the house and want the door to follow again,
you will start at the top.

However, if you do it in latex, you can follow pretty much the same
procedure and get pretty good results. The finish won't be as hard,
and won't be as UV/scuff/water resistant, but then when you need to
paint again, you can just clean it, sand it, and paint it.

Let us know what you did and how you did it. Hope this helps.

Robert

On Wed, 03 May 2006 03:44:16 GMT, "Max"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote

You've said a mouthful. Being the guy I am, I had to learn the hard
way. I too wanted to use latex over a "varnished" surface at my
house. In my case, it was the risers on some interior steps. In no
way shape or form was that paint (Sherwin Williams superpaint) going
to adhere.

I ended up using a heat gun and stripping it all off. It was a time
consuming PITA, but the results after sanding the scraped surface is
perfect. A beautifully smooth surface with excellent adhesion.

I say strip the old surface in whatever manner you want then sand 'er
smooth. Then apply the paint.

Thanks, George.
I had an idea that stripping might be required but I didn't want to if I
didn't have to. On the other hand, I want a good finish and I'm willing to
do whatever I have to do to get it. I have a good heat gun and I can get
stripper. Which do you think would be better? I'm not fond of stripper
because of the fumes and the mess but if it's what I have to do, I'm game.

Max


Well, the steps I did were to scrape the finish off with a heat gun,
then wipe the surface with a rag dipped in a liquid stripper (Kleen
Kutter) then sand. The surface looked almost as good as new.

I then primed with latex primer and painted with the latex top coat.

If your stripping a door, I imagine there will be nooks and crannies
not easily sanded or scraped, therefore I'd use stripper.

With regards to the actual finish you'll apply after doing all that,
others have also rendered good advise. Read it all and decide what
you need given your particular needs and circumstances.