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#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
I've been doing a lot of learning about hand planes recently, and was
interested to see the differences between metal bodied and wooden planes. Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil vs. a regular metal bodied plane? |
#2
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
wilbur wrote:
I've been doing a lot of learning about hand planes recently, and was interested to see the differences between metal bodied and wooden planes. Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil vs. a regular metal bodied plane? Bling. And weight. er -- email not valid |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
wilbur wrote:
: I've been doing a lot of learning about hand planes recently, and was : interested to see the differences between metal bodied and wooden : planes. : Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone : tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil : vs. a regular metal bodied plane? They have (or should have) very tight mouths, and the blade is supported all the way down to the mouth. The former you can get with a metal plane by moving the frog forward, but this results in less support for the blade. -- Andy Barss |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
Infills have heft,tight mouths,easy to adjust,and a pleasure to use,stanley
came out with the 4 1/2 to compete with the infills more heft,all in all the 4 1/2 is a very popular plane but really not comparable with an infill.if your really into planes you must have a smoothing infill. "wilbur" wrote in message news:2006042206465016807-wilburpan@hotmailcom... I've been doing a lot of learning about hand planes recently, and was interested to see the differences between metal bodied and wooden planes. Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil vs. a regular metal bodied plane? |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
wilbur wrote:
I've been doing a lot of learning about hand planes recently, and was interested to see the differences between metal bodied and wooden planes. Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil vs. a regular metal bodied plane? It's how it's made that's the major advantage. Infills start out as flat plates and are machined prior to assembly, as opposed to starting out as a casting. Castings shrink as they cool and it can be a fair amount of work to get the sole dead flat. Infills start out that way. The weight is another advantage. There's also more hand work involved in making an infill, so each one is closer to a custom creation. R |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
Newly manufactured infills are probably machined from the solid as the low
volume would make it more economical. Old ones, when they were in production, were cast same as any metal body plane. If you start out with a piece of metal thick enough to make an infill and machine it to shape, it WILL warp. It can, of course be stress relieved and machined strait. Cast iron will warp, unless stress relieved and machined strait. Cast iron, when treated correctly, is extremely stable. The bedways of precision machine tools are now, and always have been, made of cast iron. "RicodJour" wrote in message oups.com... It's how it's made that's the major advantage. Infills start out as flat plates and are machined prior to assembly, as opposed to starting out as a casting. Castings shrink as they cool and it can be a fair amount of work to get the sole dead flat. Infills start out that way. The weight is another advantage. There's also more hand work involved in making an infill, so each one is closer to a custom creation. R |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
"CW" wrote:
Newly manufactured infills are probably machined from the solid as the low volume would make it more economical. Old ones, when they were in production, were cast same as any metal body plane. AS far as I know, both old and new infills are made from steel plate, with sides (usually of thinner plate) dovetailed to the base. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
RicodJour wrote: wilbur wrote: I've been doing a lot of learning about hand planes recently, and was interested to see the differences between metal bodied and wooden planes. Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil vs. a regular metal bodied plane? It's how it's made that's the major advantage. Infills start out as flat plates and are machined prior to assembly, as opposed to starting out as a casting. Castings shrink as they cool and it can be a fair amount of work to get the sole dead flat. OTOH, that work should be done at the factory making it a non-issue for the buyer/user, unless--see below. Infills start out that way. The weight is another advantage. There's also more hand work involved in making an infill, so each one is closer to a custom creation. If the plate stock used to make the infill was properly annealed then it will probably be more stable than a cast sole, even if the casting was also annealed. Grey cast iron is also brittle, a cast plane can break in half if dropped, the worse that would likely happen to an infill would be a broken tote and chipped cutter. Lee Valley makes their iron planes from ductile cast iron---it is not brittle like the old grey-cast iron. One of the woowdorking shows on PBS visitied the factory and showed the sole for a #7 being made. They flattened the sole by running it through a machine resembling a panel sander (linishing?) befor even taking it out of the mold. Very cool. Note that a #78 broken at the mouth makes a dandy bull-nosed chisel plane. -- FF |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
May be true. I can't really say that I have sen a lot of the old ones but
the couple I have were cast. "alexy" wrote in message ... "CW" wrote: Newly manufactured infills are probably machined from the solid as the low volume would make it more economical. Old ones, when they were in production, were cast same as any metal body plane. AS far as I know, both old and new infills are made from steel plate, with sides (usually of thinner plate) dovetailed to the base. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
wrote in message ups.com... If the plate stock used to make the infill was properly annealed then it will probably be more stable than a cast sole, even if the casting was also annealed. Not true. |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
CW wrote: wrote in message ups.com... If the plate stock used to make the infill was properly annealed then it will probably be more stable than a cast sole, even if the casting was also annealed. Not true. Which part is untrue, the part about the plate being stable or the part about the casting being unsable? -- FF |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
Cast iron is very stable and better wearing than steel.
wrote in message oups.com... CW wrote: wrote in message ups.com... If the plate stock used to make the infill was properly annealed then it will probably be more stable than a cast sole, even if the casting was also annealed. Not true. Which part is untrue, the part about the plate being stable or the part about the casting being unsable? -- FF |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
"CW" wrote:
May be true. I can't really say that I have sen a lot of the old ones but the couple I have were cast. Interesting. Do you know the origin of these planes? By "the couple I have", do you mean the couple you own or the couple you have seen? If the former, can you post some details and a pic or two? What metal was the casting? I think the better known makers, such as Norris, Spiers, and Mathieson, made their planes primarily from steel, with the bodies dovetailed together. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
wilbur wrote:
I've been doing a lot of learning about hand planes recently, and was interested to see the differences between metal bodied and wooden planes. Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil vs. a regular metal bodied plane? Steel generally wears better than iron. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
"CW" wrote:
Cast iron is very stable and better wearing than steel. Not a metallurgist here, but I thought CI was softer than most steels, and more subject to wear by abrasion? -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
alexy wrote: "CW" wrote: Cast iron is very stable and better wearing than steel. Not a metallurgist here, but I thought CI was softer than most steels, and more subject to wear by abrasion? It is. Not sure that 'better wearing' is meant to imply resistance though. Castings also are notorious for warping due to residual stresses left when the thicker parts cooled slower than the thinner parts. Cold-rolled plate will have residual stresses too, but hot-rolled and annealed should minimize them. -- FF |
#17
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 06:46:50 -0400, wilbur
wrote: Then I read about infill planes. They look really nice, but can anyone tell me if there is a functional advantage of having the wooden infil vs. a regular metal bodied plane? Infills really can be better. First of all, they're intended to be better. They're just made for it - better fit, tighter tolerances, a design intended specifically for fine smoothing in awkward timber. In practice, as far as my Norrises are concerned, it's the zero-backlash adjuster that makes the difference. It's the best design of adjuster I've yet found (I prefer the differential screw version) although it's notably copied onto modern Veritas planes. As to weight, then I don;t find their extra weight to be an advantage. Weight is good, but by the time you've got to an iron plane, a lot extra isn't much extra help. The point of the rest of an infill's behaviour is that you don't have to use inertia as a hammer - it's _sharp_. As to the blades, then mine have Sheffield laminated and tapered irons from a variety of makers. These are all good irons and chatter proof owing to the enormous thickness of both them and their cap irons. They're not as hard as Japanese laminated irons though, and they don't have anything like the eternal edge holding of A2. I like my infills, but I wouldn't pay insane collector prices for them. You can get the same performance from Veritas, or for less weight and wedge adjustment, one of Steve Knight's. |
#18
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:00:13 GMT, "CW" wrote:
Cast iron is very stable and better wearing than steel. Old cast iron is stable. New cast iron is anything but, unless it has been normalised (heat treated). |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:01:47 -0400, alexy wrote:
AS far as I know, both old and new infills are made from steel plate, with sides (usually of thinner plate) dovetailed to the base. I've got cast iron, ductile iron, cast bronze, steel plate and a mixture of steel and brass plate. If you buy a new kit for one, most are cast bronze. Most of the low-volume bijou makers today are dovetailing. For thumb planes, chariots and the like, then cast bronze has always been the common method. For narrow shoulder planes, corian makes a nice infill (but a poor wedge, as it's inelastic) If you make your own by dovetailing, go for the steel and brass route. It's easier to dovetail, easier to file the dovetail gap flush, and you can still see the join afterwards. It must be really galing to go to the trouble of dovetailing steel into steel, working hard to get an invisble join, then having something where only a plane duffer can appreciate the quality! |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
If that were the case, machine tools would be made primarily from steel.
They aren't. As for the hardness of cast iron, true it is softer than steel but it's high carbon (graphite) content tends to make it somewhat self lubricating were steel will gall much easier. This is, of course, metal to metal contact so really wouldn't apply here. Should have said that in the first place. As far as stability. No steel will outdo cast iron if properly stress relieved. "alexy" wrote in message ... Steel generally wears better than iron. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:01:47 -0400, alexy wrote: AS far as I know, both old and new infills are made from steel plate, with sides (usually of thinner plate) dovetailed to the base. I've got cast iron, ductile iron, cast bronze, steel plate and a mixture of steel and brass plate. Interesting. Shows I don't know my vintage tools too well! If you buy a new kit for one, most are cast bronze. Any suggestions for sources. Now that Shepherd is out of business, I might be looking elsewhere for one at some point. Most of the low-volume bijou makers today are dovetailing. For thumb planes, chariots and the like, then cast bronze has always been the common method. For narrow shoulder planes, corian makes a nice infill (but a poor wedge, as it's inelastic) How is its mass compared to a heavy wood? If you make your own by dovetailing, go for the steel and brass route. It's easier to dovetail, easier to file the dovetail gap flush, and you can still see the join afterwards. Did that on a shoulder. It must be really galing to go to the trouble of dovetailing steel into steel, working hard to get an invisble join, then having something where only a plane duffer can appreciate the quality! Oh, I don't know. I'm building a steel sided smoother (Spiers inspired plane from Shepherd), and like having the dovetails disappear unless you get them in just the right light. g -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#22
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Advantages of infill planes?
"CW" wrote:
If that were the case, machine tools would be made primarily from steel. Well, I have to defer to you there; I know nothing about machine tools. But might there be other reasons for using CI, even if it were not as resistant to abrasion as steel? They aren't. As for the hardness of cast iron, true it is softer than steel but it's high carbon (graphite) content tends to make it somewhat self lubricating were steel will gall much easier. This is, of course, metal to metal contact so really wouldn't apply here. Should have said that in the first place. As far as stability. No steel will outdo cast iron if properly stress relieved. "alexy" wrote in message .. . Steel generally wears better than iron. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#23
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
CW wrote: If that were the case, machine tools would be made primarily from steel. They aren't. As for the hardness of cast iron, true it is softer than steel but it's high carbon (graphite) content tends to make it somewhat self lubricating were steel will gall much easier. This is, of course, metal to metal contact so really wouldn't apply here. Should have said that in the first place. As far as stability. No steel will outdo cast iron if properly stress relieved. "alexy" wrote in message ... Steel generally wears better than iron. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. If _what_ were true? Large beds for metalworking machines are typically made from cast iron for a number of reasons. The primary reason is that it is possible to cast the large parts from cast iron. While there are cast steels, they don't cast as well as iron. For an appreciable number of units, casting is almost always the cheapest way to make them Secondly, cast iron machines easier that steels due in part to the lubricity provided by the graphite inclusions mentioned above, and partly because it is softer than steel. Cast Iron is just as stiff as steel but has better dampening, again due to the graphite inclusions. It's good stuff. But it is not harder or more stable than annealed steel. -- GG |
#24
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
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#25
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:44:45 -0400, alexy wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:01:47 -0400, alexy wrote: If you buy a new kit for one, most are cast bronze. Any suggestions for sources. Now that Shepherd is out of business, I might be looking elsewhere for one at some point. Bristol Designs used to do them and I think Charles still has some castings, but I know that he can't source adjusters (Norris style) to offer any them more. You can always make your own. It's not hard to get bronze castings made from a pattern, and it's not even a hard pattern to make. I'm tempted to cast my own (I've been doing a lot of bronze and silver casting lately), but I've no real need or time for one. I've got castings for an iron smoother (A5 style) and 1" shoulder plane that have been sitting here for the last 2 years already! For narrow shoulder planes, corian makes a nice infill (but a poor wedge, as it's inelastic) How is its mass compared to a heavy wood? Corian is about 1.6 specific gravity, AFAIR. Comparable to dense-ish wood. Neither really matters anyway, a cast sole easily outweighs them. |
#26
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
Andy Dingley wrote:
You can always make your own. It's not hard to get bronze castings made from a pattern, and it's not even a hard pattern to make. Or if you don't want to use a casting, here's a great photo documentation of Gary Kramer's building of a box mitre plane: http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...20&uid=1093670 -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#27
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Advantages of infill planes?
wrote in message oups.com... But it is not harder That has been established. or more stable than annealed steel. If we keep this thread going long enough, you will do a complete 180. You stand at about 140 now. I've been machining this stuff for 20 years now. Using machines to make machines. I have a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't. Did some Stellite today. Want to know some tough Sh*t. -- GG |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
Many people have mentioned weight as being an advantage for an infill
plane. As best I can tell, rosewood species (this seems to be a common wood for infill planes) have a specific gravity of somewhere between 0.8 and 1.2. Cast iron has a specific gravity in the 7-8 range, which would make it much denser than rosewood. So does an infill plane really weigh more than a similarly sized cast iron plane? |
#29
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Advantages of infill planes?
wilbur wrote:
Many people have mentioned weight as being an advantage for an infill plane. As best I can tell, rosewood species (this seems to be a common wood for infill planes) have a specific gravity of somewhere between 0.8 and 1.2. Cast iron has a specific gravity in the 7-8 range, which would make it much denser than rosewood. So does an infill plane really weigh more than a similarly sized cast iron plane? If you filled a cast iron plane in with wood, you'd have a (heavier) infill. I imagine if someone were to fill a plane with cast iron you could still call it an infill, and it'd still be heavy. er -- email not valid |
#30
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:52:47 -0400, alexy wrote:
Or if you don't want to use a casting, here's a great photo documentation of Gary Kramer's building of a box mitre plane: http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...20&uid=1093670 I quite fancy a mitre plane like that and I would like to make a dovetailed one (brass sides). I'm also just off the phone from someone trying to sell me a Bridgeport vertical mill for £600..... |
#31
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Advantages of infill planes?
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:41:32 -0400, wilbur
wrote: So does an infill plane really weigh more than a similarly sized cast iron plane? Yes - but because there's more metal in there, not because of the wood. Cast infills are notably heavier than dovetailed sheet. A "Plane o Ayr" is a real lightweight in comprison to anything, including a #4, because of the thin base and the minimal sides. Remember that the infill pre-dates the Bailey pattern. They were heavyweight in comparison to woodies. The Bailey pattern was a way of giving the iron base and mass of the infill, with modern production methods and without all the expensive labour of fitting the infills. Infills still worked better though and so the myth grew up that even more mass had to be a good thing, just because one of their properties was extra mass. Patrick is just _wrong_ when he claims this for the #4 1/2 "I have this half-baked, semi-baked, even fully-baked theory that Stanley offered this plane as competition for the heavier infill planes, being produced in England." http://supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm#num4.5 |
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