I have not received anything from masonite.com yet regarding my message. I
figured there would be some carpenters in here who might know how much I can
trim from these doors' four sides.

I did not ask which type of paint should I buy to finish these: oil or
latex, or does it matter, because I will have white semi-gloss CIL oil for
the jambs, mouldings and casing already, but not any latex.

There are two things I forgot to mention in the original message:

Three of the four doors have between 5/16" and 5/8" interference throughout
the doors swing path at the conrete floor, something not covered fully in
the question.
Hopefully I can get HD to cut the side(s) on their panel saw. However one
employee said they got crap for doing this - I didn't ask why. My local
store was very good at cutting all my jambs from a 4' x 8' sheet using my
AutoCAD dimensioned drawing.

Second, to avoid splintering I wonder if I should:
A) put a strip of masking tape centered along the line of cut
B) make a score with a knife along the cut line
C) both A & B above

If I were to score a line, even though I am confident that the panel saw
and/or operator is good to 1/64" I believe that anywhere around 1mm or 2mm
on the keep side from the cut line would accomplish the desired result. Am I
correct?

THE MESSAGE:
I have roughed openings for four of your 6-panel (I believe they are
"hollow", not by my choice) grain-simulated primed doors I plan to buy at
Home Depot here in Toronto. Without any jambs or pre-mortising. One of four
doors is bi-fold. I am planning on using ¾" jambs, thus leaving 30" widths
in all but the bi-fold (leaving 24" or 24-1/2").

The basement concrete floor is completely unfinished and tiles are probably
next. Everything should be very level because I just made it. I do not know
exactly how much to deduct at the bottom. Maybe 1"? In the 76" high door,
the top jamb will be attached directly under a metal I-beam, so there is no
room for height adjustment. There is very little room for height adjustment
in the other 3 openings either.

26" x (69-1/2" to 78-1/2") - the bi-fold, in bathroom

31-1/2" x 77-1/4" - the bathroom door which will have a rug and tiles to
clear

31-1/2" x 76"

31-1/2" x 73-1/2"

So if you take 2" off the height of the bathroom doors and 1-3/4" from the
last two to account for the planned ¾" top jamb and floors you get these
finished door sizes:

67-1/2" to 76-1/2" (24" x bi-fold)

75-1/4" (30" x)

74-1/4" (30" x)

71-3/4" (30" x)



I have just guessed how much to trim off the total height. Can you be more
specific? Also I am not sure which widths are available for the bi-fold
door. I hope I can get a 24" standard width.

The biggest question is about trimming these doors, which are available in
78" height. How much can I trim from the top and bottom specifically, not so
much the hinge side and strike side. And given these exact heights do I need
to worry about trimming both the top and bottoms at the same time to
accommodate? I know how to tuck the inserts back into the door from the
trimmed off ends. I don't know if you can buy doors any smaller in height
than 78" or if they are custom-orderable if need be.

And also if it is advisable to have Home Depot put them on their panel saw
to do the trimming. My only blade is a combination type on a Mastercraft
table saw. I have a jig saw, but I would have to rent or buy a circular saw,
and probably would not (but could) buy a special blade specifically for this
one time.

The widths I believe are standard. I am not sure if there should be any
width clearance given between the jamb and door when installed. Should there
be, and is it already made into the door for an exact 30" or 24" opening? Do
I have some sanding to do? Should I try to put the 1-2 degree angle on the
hinge side, and 3-5 degree on the strike side, or do they come with one? Are
they necessary?

P.S. I was told that pre-finished white is not available in the doors I want
here in Toronto. Is this true? It is primed only?

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:55:31 -0500, "bent" wrote:

I have just guessed how much to trim off the total height. Can you be more
specific? Also I am not sure which widths are available for the bi-fold
door. I hope I can get a 24" standard width.

Most masonite doors I have used have about 1" of material all the way
around the door with a lock block one one side and sometimes both
sides. We used to see a 2" bottom block in about everything but not
so anymore. Most doors are set up with 7/8" clearance at the floor.
I'm always installing doors prior to installation of the finished
floor so I'll add 1/2" for carpet, 3/4" wood floor or tile with a
concrete board backer.

The biggest question is about trimming these doors, which are available in
78" height. How much can I trim from the top and bottom specifically, not so
much the hinge side and strike side.

If the openings don't require you to cut off more than 1"-2" I'd take
it all off the bottom and then plug the bottom with the piece you cut
out. Assuming the doors have been drilled for locks, you probably
don't want to lower the locks much more than that.

And also if it is advisable to have Home Depot put them on their panel saw
to do the trimming. My only blade is a combination type on a Mastercraft
table saw. I have a jig saw, but I would have to rent or buy a circular saw,
and probably would not (but could) buy a special blade specifically for this
one time.

With sharp blade you can cut a masonite door without scoring it. I
cut them on the table saw (with someone tailing the door) but you want
to use a push stick to push off the drop or you can send it right
through a window or wall...or you.
I do bi-folds a little differently if they have to be cut beyond the
block in the bottom. Bi-folds have a little flexibilty in how they
adjust for height. You may be able to adjust them higher so that they
don't have too be cut off too much. If I'm going to have enough
block left after cutting them off, I'll cut the bottom. If however I
have to cut the block entirely out and then replace it, I'll cut the
top off instead. My feeling is that all the weight of the bifold is
on the bottom pivot point and I'm a little concerned that the re-glued
bottom block may fail. That may just be me.
One other note, all of this is kinda dependant on cutting off a small
amount (up to 2" or so) that won't be too noticeable on the door. For
instance if you needed to cut 5" off the door and bottom cross buck
was only 4" high you might need to cut both ends.

The widths I believe are standard. I am not sure if there should be any
width clearance given between the jamb and door when installed. Should there
be, and is it already made into the door for an exact 30" or 24" opening? Do
I have some sanding to do? Should I try to put the 1-2 degree angle on the
hinge side, and 3-5 degree on the strike side, or do they come with one? Are
they necessary?

All of the masonite doors I've seen are already beveled on one edge
which is the lock side. The other side is not beveled because modern
hinges are manufactured so that the bevel on the hinge side of the
door is not needed.
Normally the inside measurement of the jamb is 3/16" or so wider than
the door.

P.S. I was told that pre-finished white is not available in the doors I want
here in Toronto. Is this true? It is primed only?

I've never seen any that were truly pre-finished. The doors look
white but they are only primed.


Mike O.

I will be drilling the holes and chiselling the lockset into the doors.

Assuming ¾" for the tiles, and another 5/8" gap open for air, and the exact
horizontal interference at the floor, and allowing 1/4" more for rugs( a
greatest total of 7/8") I need to trim to these heights from the 78" doors:

67-13/16"-76-13/16" (bi-fold). Actually 75-5/8" or 76" door height is all
as high asI should go without putting any dangerous stresses on plumbing
pipes above top jamb(@3/4")

75-3/16"

74-5/8"

71-1/2"

can this be done, and how?

I just checked 6 other installed interior doors. There is a bevel on the
strike side, which changes door width dimensions by between 1/16" and 1/8".
From nominal there is a definite difference of ¼" between door and opening
(counting 5's and 2's). I have 0,1,2,3, & 4 /16ths less on the door, and
0,0,2,4,4 /16ths greater jamb openings. I did a couple of these myself and
put a bevel or two in backward. I had thought that much of a gap is nearly
as great as the width of the door stop and I could do better. Wrong! I think
I'll be deep in sawdust soon.

So when you buy doors do you have to select either a left or right opening
or do you have to shave it yourself? Is there a different bevel on both
sides? Or is there an equally great bevel on both sides (two lines would
converge) so you only need to rotate the door 180 degrees for a clockwise or
ccw install. I can't measure the bevel on the hinge side without taking the
doors off. And I installed some of these, they're different, old, etc.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:57:19 -0500, "bent" wrote:

67-13/16"-76-13/16" (bi-fold). Actually 75-5/8" or 76" door height is all
as high asI should go without putting any dangerous stresses on plumbing
pipes above top jamb(@3/4")
75-3/16"74-5/8"71-1/2"
can this be done, and how?

Are these doors flat blank doors or do they have a design (like
colonist style ) that is designed into the door? If there is a design
then cutting off 6" or 8" will likely get into the design elements of
the door. If that's the case you will need to layout the cuts that
will work from both ends. If they are just flat doors, you should be
able to cut off just one end as long as your lock block is long enough
so that you can still bore the door a a comfortable height. You can
easily tell how much top and bottom block and lock block the door has
by lightly tapping on it with a hammer. You will hear the hollowness
when you run out of block. Since you are cutting off so much, you
will have to plug the door after cutting it down. I do that by taking
the piece I cut off and ripping the door face off of each side of the
bottom (or top) block. Then just glue and clamp it back into the
bottom (or top) of the door.

I just checked 6 other installed interior doors. There is a bevel on the
strike side, which changes door width dimensions by between 1/16" and 1/8".

When we hang our own doors we bevel them on the joiner on the lock
side only. The bevel goes from about 1/8" to nothing. So, the door
is the same size it always was on one side and 1/8" narrower on the
stop side. As I said before unless you are using older hinges, you do
not need to bevel the hinge side of the door.

So when you buy doors do you have to select either a left or right opening
or do you have to shave it yourself?

This depends on your supplier. My guess is that if you are buying
blanks, they will have no bevel. However if your supplier also hangs
doors for sale they may have lefts and right available. If the doors
are flat faced it doesn't matter as you can reverse the door.
Ideally, since you are cutting off so much, a flat faced door with two
lock blocks would be preferrable. You can cut off one end (assuming
the lock blocks are long enough) and you can reverse the door to
accomodate any bow the door might have. When hanging doors if the
door has some bow to it you want to hang it so that the top and bottom
of the door hit the stop. This way the lock will pull the door tight
and it will not hang out of the opening at the top or bottom. If you
have only one lock block, you have little choice as to which way to
hang it.

Is there a different bevel on both sides?

If the doors are beveled on both sides the degree of bevel will likely
be the same. I think you are more likely to get doors that are not
beveled than you are to get doors beveled on both sides.
Call your supplier and tell them you need to hang your own doors and
ask them what is available.

Mike O.

bent wrote:
I will be drilling the holes and chiselling the lockset into the doors.

Assuming ¾" for the tiles, and another 5/8" gap open for air, and the exact
horizontal interference at the floor, and allowing 1/4" more for rugs( a
greatest total of 7/8") I need to trim to these heights from the 78" doors:

67-13/16"-76-13/16" (bi-fold). Actually 75-5/8" or 76" door height is all
as high asI should go without putting any dangerous stresses on plumbing
pipes above top jamb(@3/4")

75-3/16"

74-5/8"

71-1/2"

can this be done, and how?

I just checked 6 other installed interior doors. There is a bevel on the
strike side, which changes door width dimensions by between 1/16" and 1/8".
From nominal there is a definite difference of ¼" between door and opening
(counting 5's and 2's). I have 0,1,2,3, & 4 /16ths less on the door, and
0,0,2,4,4 /16ths greater jamb openings. I did a couple of these myself and
put a bevel or two in backward. I had thought that much of a gap is nearly
as great as the width of the door stop and I could do better. Wrong! I think
I'll be deep in sawdust soon.

So when you buy doors do you have to select either a left or right opening
or do you have to shave it yourself? Is there a different bevel on both
sides? Or is there an equally great bevel on both sides (two lines would
converge) so you only need to rotate the door 180 degrees for a clockwise or
ccw install. I can't measure the bevel on the hinge side without taking the
doors off. And I installed some of these, they're different, old, etc.




The doors you buy from HD will have no bevel. If
you buy blanks doors (no holes or mortises) there
is no left or right swing. You determine that by
the mortises for the hinges and bevel on the lock
edge. The pamphlet instructions for the doors
tell you how to install and how much bevel. I
forget, but I think 5-8 degrees is fairly standard.

Mike O. wrote:
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:57:19 -0500, "bent" wrote:


67-13/16"-76-13/16" (bi-fold). Actually 75-5/8" or 76" door height is all
as high asI should go without putting any dangerous stresses on plumbing
pipes above top jamb(@3/4")

75-3/16"74-5/8"71-1/2"

can this be done, and how?


Are these doors flat blank doors or do they have a design (like
colonist style ) that is designed into the door? If there is a design
then cutting off 6" or 8" will likely get into the design elements of
the door. If that's the case you will need to layout the cuts that
will work from both ends. If they are just flat doors, you should be
able to cut off just one end as long as your lock block is long enough
so that you can still bore the door a a comfortable height. You can
easily tell how much top and bottom block and lock block the door has
by lightly tapping on it with a hammer. You will hear the hollowness
when you run out of block. Since you are cutting off so much, you
will have to plug the door after cutting it down. I do that by taking
the piece I cut off and ripping the door face off of each side of the
bottom (or top) block. Then just glue and clamp it back into the
bottom (or top) of the door.


I just checked 6 other installed interior doors. There is a bevel on the
strike side, which changes door width dimensions by between 1/16" and 1/8".


When we hang our own doors we bevel them on the joiner on the lock
side only. The bevel goes from about 1/8" to nothing. So, the door
is the same size it always was on one side and 1/8" narrower on the
stop side. As I said before unless you are using older hinges, you do
not need to bevel the hinge side of the door.


I'm curious about your statement of no need for a
bevel with newer hinges. All of the hinges I have
seen are essentially the same basic style. You
can not fit the door closely to the frame unless
the edge is beveled. Or contrariwise, you don't
have to bevel but the door crack will have to be
wider. What are the hinges that don't require a
bevel for a close fitting door?

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 05:26:42 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

I'm curious about your statement of no need for a
bevel with newer hinges. All of the hinges I have
seen are essentially the same basic style. You
can not fit the door closely to the frame unless
the edge is beveled. Or contrariwise, you don't
have to bevel but the door crack will have to be
wider. What are the hinges that don't require a
bevel for a close fitting door?

Almost all newer residential door hinges don't require a bevel. Open
a box a the local borg and close the hinge until the butts are
parrallel. You'll notice that there is still about 1/16" gap between
the butts. If you look at the butts closely you also notice a small
bend on only one of the butts. This actually builds the bevel into
the hinge. Most prehung doors you buy today are not beveled on the
hinge side for this very reason.
If you do choose to use a bevel with these hinges you will actually
increase the gap between the hinge side of the door and the jamb
because the hinge is more open than is required.

Mike O.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:04:12 -0600, Mike O. wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 05:26:42 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

I'm curious about your statement of no need for a
bevel with newer hinges. All of the hinges I have
seen are essentially the same basic style. You
can not fit the door closely to the frame unless
the edge is beveled. Or contrariwise, you don't
have to bevel but the door crack will have to be
wider. What are the hinges that don't require a
bevel for a close fitting door?

Almost all newer residential door hinges don't require a bevel. Open
a box a the local borg and close the hinge until the butts are
parrallel. You'll notice that there is still about 1/16" gap between
the butts. If you look at the butts closely you also notice a small
bend on only one of the butts. This actually builds the bevel into
the hinge. Most prehung doors you buy today are not beveled on the
hinge side for this very reason.
If you do choose to use a bevel with these hinges you will actually
increase the gap between the hinge side of the door and the jamb
because the hinge is more open than is required.

Mike O.

dont know where you are but here in N.C. i have not seen a pre
machined door of any kind that was not beveled on BOTH sides. been
hanging commercial and residential doors for nearly 20 years. the
bevel prevents binding at the hinge and it also helps to close the gap
down to acceptable 1/8" standard. if you do not bevel the hinge side
the margine will be more than 1/8" and look odd. IMHO.

skeez

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:28:54 GMT, skeezics wrote:

dont know where you are but here in N.C. i have not seen a pre
machined door of any kind that was not beveled on BOTH sides. been
hanging commercial and residential doors for nearly 20 years.

I'm not doubting what you see in your area. I also don't doubt your
experience only to say that I do have you beat by more than a few
years.

the
bevel prevents binding

True

at the hinge and it also helps to close the gap
down to acceptable 1/8" standard. if you do not bevel the hinge side
the margine will be more than 1/8" and look odd. IMHO.

Not true.
If you do not bevel a door (with non swaged hinges) you will in fact
move the door closer to the jamb which causes the binding problem you
described. You end up with no gap between the door and jamb.

I assure you that I understand the concept of beveling the hinge side
to prevent binding. This process is still required with most
commercial hinges because they are still manufactured so that the
leaves lay flat against each other when fully closed.
However, I'll stand by my statement that most residential hinge
manufacturers are making a hinge that does what I describe. They are
called swaged hinges. There is a 1/16" gap built into the hinge when
the leaves are parrallel (ie. the door is closed). The companies
pre-hanging residential doors here (including the borgs and at least 5
lumber yards or millworks) are all using swaged hinges and the hinge
side of the doors are NOT beveled.
Using these hinges with a non-beveled door will result in a 1/16" gap
between door and jam (when closed) as is intended by the hinge
manufacturer. If using swaged hinges and a gap larger than 1/16"
(on the hinge side) is preferred, you will need to bevel the door
which opens the hinge and moves the door away from the jamb.

Here is the link to national that shows the design of their swaged
hinge.
www.natman.com/ConsumerBrochures/HingeCon.pdf
I believe that all of thier residential door hinges are swaged but
didn't look through the catalog to confirm that. You might also
notice on thier instruction pages there is no reference to putting a
bevel on the hinge side.

These hinges are not new and have been used here for the last several
years.

Mike O.

Mike O. wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 05:26:42 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:


I'm curious about your statement of no need for a
bevel with newer hinges. All of the hinges I have
seen are essentially the same basic style. You
can not fit the door closely to the frame unless
the edge is beveled. Or contrariwise, you don't
have to bevel but the door crack will have to be
wider. What are the hinges that don't require a
bevel for a close fitting door?


Almost all newer residential door hinges don't require a bevel. Open
a box a the local borg and close the hinge until the butts are
parrallel. You'll notice that there is still about 1/16" gap between
the butts. If you look at the butts closely you also notice a small
bend on only one of the butts. This actually builds the bevel into
the hinge. Most prehung doors you buy today are not beveled on the
hinge side for this very reason.
If you do choose to use a bevel with these hinges you will actually
increase the gap between the hinge side of the door and the jamb
because the hinge is more open than is required.

Mike O.

I'm still confused because my 1976 original hinges
look just like the new hinges I bought. I can see
how if the door hinge is bent just right you would
decrease or eliminate the need for a bevel on the
lock side. But these hinges (and they look just
like your swagged hinges in the url you gave to
skeezics) won't do that. The hinge would need to
bent so that the when closed the edge away from
the pin would need to be closer to the other hinge
and they are not that way.

BTW, BORG doors I bought say they need to be bevel
on the lock side. And I can guarantee, with my
hinges I need to do that. But, I'll keep looking
around, maybe the new hinges I bought are the old
type. It sure would have been a pleasure to not
have to bevel the lock side. As it was the
original doors were about 1/4" less wide than
nominal, so all of my new doors (which were
nominal sizes in width) had to be cut down to fit
the frames.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 17:18:37 -0600, Mike O. wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:28:54 GMT, skeezics wrote:

dont know where you are but here in N.C. i have not seen a pre
machined door of any kind that was not beveled on BOTH sides. been
hanging commercial and residential doors for nearly 20 years.

I'm not doubting what you see in your area. I also don't doubt your
experience only to say that I do have you beat by more than a few
years.

the
bevel prevents binding

True

at the hinge and it also helps to close the gap
down to acceptable 1/8" standard. if you do not bevel the hinge side
the margine will be more than 1/8" and look odd. IMHO.

Not true.
If you do not bevel a door (with non swaged hinges) you will in fact
move the door closer to the jamb which causes the binding problem you
described. You end up with no gap between the door and jamb.

I assure you that I understand the concept of beveling the hinge side
to prevent binding. This process is still required with most
commercial hinges because they are still manufactured so that the
leaves lay flat against each other when fully closed.
However, I'll stand by my statement that most residential hinge
manufacturers are making a hinge that does what I describe. They are
called swaged hinges. There is a 1/16" gap built into the hinge when
the leaves are parrallel (ie. the door is closed). The companies
pre-hanging residential doors here (including the borgs and at least 5
lumber yards or millworks) are all using swaged hinges and the hinge
side of the doors are NOT beveled.
Using these hinges with a non-beveled door will result in a 1/16" gap
between door and jam (when closed) as is intended by the hinge
manufacturer. If using swaged hinges and a gap larger than 1/16"
(on the hinge side) is preferred, you will need to bevel the door
which opens the hinge and moves the door away from the jamb.

Here is the link to national that shows the design of their swaged
hinge.
www.natman.com/ConsumerBrochures/HingeCon.pdf
I believe that all of thier residential door hinges are swaged but
didn't look through the catalog to confirm that. You might also
notice on thier instruction pages there is no reference to putting a
bevel on the hinge side.

These hinges are not new and have been used here for the last several
years.

Mike O.

i have seen these national hinges and while they reguire no bevel as
you say they are about the worst excuse for a hinge i have ever used.
JMHO of course. if as you say only 1/16 " margin is right on a res
door then why are res jambs full width of the size they are suposed to
be and the doors machined 1/4" smaller? probly so you get a 1/8"
margin on each side. i dont doubt your experiance either but ask your
self this if you only have one side of a presized door beveled how can
you reverse the hand? i have probly hung 100000 comercial doors over
the years and every one of em was either pre machined and beveled both
sides or i had to do the machining myself and make them that way. it
depends on what the customer ordered. i have also hung several
thousand res doors and they are beveled both sides also. i get em from
the borg and lumber yards and door companies. around here they are
beveled both sides and lock blocks are installed on both sides so they
can be handed either way. the manufacturers do not distinguish LH or
RH they only care about what style.if ya think about it it does make
some sense on their part. because they can make em all the same and
eliminate some errors. some areas are different though. when i was in
PA a year or so ago i was asked by a family member to hang a door in
the basement. no prob. when i got to the lumber yard i found that what
they called a pre hung unit was totaly different than pre hung units
around here. here they sell split jambs with casing already istalled
there a pre hung is a solid jamb with the door in it and no casing.
they had 5/8 drywall in the basement. well guess what? that type of
jamb is made for 1/2 " drywall. a simple door became a larger project
because of it. had to make jamb extentions with a skill saw because a
tablesaw was not available. sure wish i had my tools with me on that
trip..any way i stand by my statement that a properly hung door is
beveled both sides. its the way i was taught and the way i will always
do it. i may be wrong but im too old to change now.

skeez

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 00:27:07 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

BTW, BORG doors I bought say they need to be bevel
on the lock side. And I can guarantee, with my
hinges I need to do that. But, I'll keep looking
around, maybe the new hinges I bought are the old
type. It sure would have been a pleasure to not
have to bevel the lock side. As it was the
original doors were about 1/4" less wide than
nominal, so all of my new doors (which were
nominal sizes in width) had to be cut down to fit
the frames.

The lock side still needs a bevel, with swaged hinges, the hinge side
does not.

Mike O.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 01:46:02 GMT, skeezics wrote:

i have seen these national hinges and while they reguire no bevel as
you say they are about the worst excuse for a hinge i have ever used.
JMHO of course. if as you say only 1/16 " margin is right on a res
door then why are res jambs full width of the size they are suposed to
be and the doors machined 1/4" smaller?

If the doors are 1/4" smaller, my guess is they have been machined
that way for hanging. The blank doors we get are a full size (on the
non beveled side) whether 2/0,2/4,2/6 or whatever. As far as swaged
hinges go I believe that all of the manufacturers make hinges that are
either standard design or swaged in one configuration or another. I
believe the ones we see on pre-hungs here are actually "one leaf
half-swaged".

probly so you get a 1/8"
margin on each side. i dont doubt your experiance either but ask your
self this if you only have one side of a presized door beveled how can
you reverse the hand? i have probly hung 100000 comercial doors over
the years and every one of em was either pre machined and beveled both
sides or i had to do the machining myself and make them that way.

With slab doors the doors are still reversible by turning the door so
that the bottom is now the top. The real problem with this method is
that you cannot hang the door according to any warp that might be in
the door.
As far as colonist (or other style) masonite doors, the lumber yards
and mills we deal with order them in bulk as rights and lefts. They
do no processing of any bevel on the doors because the lock side is
already beveled from the factory. These doors also only have one lock
block. When we get them, the primer is still on all six sides so I
know they are not beveled locally.
Another problem is that if we order a blank for a pocket door, we
have to actually take the bevel off of the door since the oposite flat
edge has no lock block. No one here is stocking a true blank.

depends on what the customer ordered. i have also hung several
thousand res doors and they are beveled both sides also. i get em from
the borg and lumber yards and door companies. around here they are
beveled both sides and lock blocks are installed on both sides so they
can be handed either way. the manufacturers do not distinguish LH or
RH they only care about what style.if ya think about it it does make
some sense on their part. because they can make em all the same and
eliminate some errors.

I would agree that this does make sense and that is the way it has
always been done before the last 4 or 5 years here. I'll tell you I
was just as surprised as anyone when I saw the first door milled this
way. There has to be some kind of financial reason for the change.

trip..any way i stand by my statement that a properly hung door is
beveled both sides. its the way i was taught and the way i will always
do it. i may be wrong but im too old to change now.

That's the way I was taught to do it also. I'm not saying it's wrong
either. What I am saying is that the first thing I do is open the
case of hinges to see if they are swaged.:-)

Mike O.

Mike O. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 00:27:07 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:


BTW, BORG doors I bought say they need to be bevel
on the lock side. And I can guarantee, with my
hinges I need to do that. But, I'll keep looking
around, maybe the new hinges I bought are the old
type. It sure would have been a pleasure to not
have to bevel the lock side. As it was the
original doors were about 1/4" less wide than
nominal, so all of my new doors (which were
nominal sizes in width) had to be cut down to fit
the frames.


The lock side still needs a bevel, with swaged hinges, the hinge side
does not.

Mike O.

OH, ok. I guess I misinterpreted what was said
here. Thank god, I'm not going nuts. I though
people were saying there didn't need to be a bevel
on the lock side. Never heard of, or seen, a
bevel on the hinge side, no matter what kind of
hinge, but I guess it could be necessary if you
have the door very tight to the stop.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:41:51 -0600, Mike O. wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 01:46:02 GMT, skeezics wrote:

i have seen these national hinges and while they reguire no bevel as
you say they are about the worst excuse for a hinge i have ever used.
JMHO of course. if as you say only 1/16 " margin is right on a res
door then why are res jambs full width of the size they are suposed to
be and the doors machined 1/4" smaller?

If the doors are 1/4" smaller, my guess is they have been machined
that way for hanging. The blank doors we get are a full size (on the
non beveled side) whether 2/0,2/4,2/6 or whatever. As far as swaged
hinges go I believe that all of the manufacturers make hinges that are
either standard design or swaged in one configuration or another. I
believe the ones we see on pre-hungs here are actually "one leaf
half-swaged".

probly so you get a 1/8"
margin on each side. i dont doubt your experiance either but ask your
self this if you only have one side of a presized door beveled how can
you reverse the hand? i have probly hung 100000 comercial doors over
the years and every one of em was either pre machined and beveled both
sides or i had to do the machining myself and make them that way.

With slab doors the doors are still reversible by turning the door so
that the bottom is now the top.

mostly 6 panel doors here so that doesnt work. flat doors are not seen
much here these days.


The real problem with this method is
that you cannot hang the door according to any warp that might be in
the door.


true.

As far as colonist (or other style) masonite doors, the lumber yards
and mills we deal with order them in bulk as rights and lefts. They
do no processing of any bevel on the doors because the lock side is
already beveled from the factory. These doors also only have one lock
block. When we get them, the primer is still on all six sides so I
know they are not beveled locally.
Another problem is that if we order a blank for a pocket door, we
have to actually take the bevel off of the door since the oposite flat
edge has no lock block. No one here is stocking a true blank.

same here with pockets but i can use either side cause of the double
blocks. i cant figure why a manuacturer would only do one side. seems
it would add to inventory and production problems. ahhhh what do i
know im just s dumb carpenter i gues. :-]

depends on what the customer ordered. i have also hung several
thousand res doors and they are beveled both sides also. i get em from
the borg and lumber yards and door companies. around here they are
beveled both sides and lock blocks are installed on both sides so they
can be handed either way. the manufacturers do not distinguish LH or
RH they only care about what style.if ya think about it it does make
some sense on their part. because they can make em all the same and
eliminate some errors.

I would agree that this does make sense and that is the way it has
always been done before the last 4 or 5 years here. I'll tell you I
was just as surprised as anyone when I saw the first door milled this
way. There has to be some kind of financial reason for the change.

trip..any way i stand by my statement that a properly hung door is
beveled both sides. its the way i was taught and the way i will always
do it. i may be wrong but im too old to change now.

That's the way I was taught to do it also. I'm not saying it's wrong
either. What I am saying is that the first thing I do is open the
case of hinges to see if they are swaged.:-)

hmmmm... guess i beter start looking first cause if its happenin there
it will here too if they think they will profit from the change. lol


skeez


Mike O.

The doors at HD here are beveled both sides with the lines converging. The
swaged hinges (Stanley) are not quite parallel, which I guess indicates a
generous gap on the hinge side. Does this indicate I should trim this edge
with a right angle, or possibly with the reverse bevel (does this make a
difference)? - I hate to say I forgot to measure the width of the nominal
30" wide door, and can't comment yet. And what about the HD panel saw and
trimming methods I suggested?

In order to get these 4 doors, which are within 20 feet of one another, to
look right, I think the answer I'm looking for is to draw an imaginary line
through the center of the strike/position on the center panel, say 37-1/2"
from the floor, and trim the tops AND bottoms accordingly: Y or N?

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:34:39 -0500, "bent" wrote:

The doors at HD here are beveled both sides with the lines converging. The
swaged hinges (Stanley) are not quite parallel, which I guess indicates a
generous gap on the hinge side. Does this indicate I should trim this edge
with a right angle, or possibly with the reverse bevel (does this make a
difference)? -

If the door is already beveled I'd use them that way. You may end up
with a little more gap at the jamb because of the swaged hinge but it
shouldn't be too much.

I hate to say I forgot to measure the width of the nominal
30" wide door, and can't comment yet. And what about the HD panel saw and
trimming methods I suggested?

IMO you can trim a masonite door with about anything. You won't get
splintering because the face is not a veneer skin. Plus, the doors
will paint later anyway.

In order to get these 4 doors, which are within 20 feet of one another, to
look right, I think the answer I'm looking for is to draw an imaginary line
through the center of the strike/position on the center panel, say 37-1/2"
from the floor, and trim the tops AND bottoms accordingly: Y or N?


If that's looks better to you, go for it.
If you have to cut more than a couple of inches you will lower the
knob too much (assuming you cut the bottom) and I do think you want
that knob in the middle cross buck no matter what.

Mike O.

I am asking what does look right. I am cutting a total of

2-1/4" (bifold)

2-13/16"

3-3/8"

6-1/2"

from the total heights

IF I DID cut from the same ends only (all top or all bottom) I think it
would look weird.

However I also think it would look weird if I choose to cut from both ends
to cut too much off the top panels,. WHAT TO DO? I need an equation.

Both the 78" bi-fold and 78" doors have similar top (3-11/16", 3-11/16"),
middle(messy notes, both around 4-1/4"), and lower (5-13/16" bi, 6-7/8")
horizontal panels, and the sides are ~4-1/2". The bi-fold is 77" high

btw I know each panel of a 24" bi-fold is 11-3/4", but its plastic wrapped,
so I don't know what the center (hinge) gap adds to the total width.

woops, you can't get things right unless you do it 8 times. I'm just using
this post as a calculator and waiting for someone to tell me what I should
know.

both have stiles (V) that are 4-1/4" (+/- 1/8") on the outside, and the
bi-fold a 1-3/4" x2, plus hinge

then, top to bottom (~)

bifold regular
3-3/4" rail 3-3/4" rail
8-1/2" raised panel 8-1/8" raised panel
4" rail 4" rail
24" raised panel 24" raised panel
7" rail 7" rail
24" raised panel 24" raised panel
5-15/16" rail 6-3/4" rail

remove: remove:
2-1/4"
2-13/16"
3-3/8"
6-1/2"
..
p.s I just got a message that my cable internet supplier (rogers.com - huge
here in Toronto) is dropping usenet. They say no-one uses it. They even
point to giganews. I wonder if the compalints will reverse this decision.
Why would they drop this. I've often wondered what was up with this
anyways.

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:18:23 -0500, "bent" wrote:

I am asking what does look right. I am cutting a total of

2-1/4" (bifold)

2-13/16"

3-3/8"

6-1/2"

from the total heights

IF I DID cut from the same ends only (all top or all bottom) I think it
would look weird.
However I also think it would look weird if I choose to cut from both ends
to cut too much off the top panels,. WHAT TO DO? I need an equation.

Since having to cut 3'-6" off a door is not a very common thing to do,
I'd say there is no set rule. You're just gonna have to decide and
go for it.

Both the 78" bi-fold and 78" doors have similar top (3-11/16", 3-11/16"),
middle(messy notes, both around 4-1/4"), and lower (5-13/16" bi, 6-7/8")
horizontal panels, and the sides are ~4-1/2". The bi-fold is 77" high

Remember, if these go into existing openings and you want the strike
plate to remain in the same place, you may or may not be able to keep
the door knob bore (assuming the doors aren't bored already) in the
center rail of the door. That will just depend on how you cut them.

If it were me, I'd cut the first two smaller amounts all from the
bottom. That should leave the top and bottom rail about the same
width so I don't think that would look too bad. The other two I'd
probaby have to take of each end. On the 6-1/2" cut you're going to
run out of rail at the bottom.

btw I know each panel of a 24" bi-fold is 11-3/4", but its plastic wrapped,
so I don't know what the center (hinge) gap adds to the total width.

The bifold should fit into an opening the proper size of the
bifold(s). If you are using a 4/0 bifold it should fit into a 4' wide
finished opening.

Mike O.

If it were me, I'd cut the first two smaller amounts all from the
bottom. That should leave the top and bottom rail about the same
width so I don't think that would look too bad. The other two I'd
probaby have to take of each end. On the 6-1/2" cut you're going to
run out of rail at the bottom.

And the last two are regular doors, and they come with 6-3/4" bottom rails,
and 3-3/4" tops. So if I need to cut 6-1/2" total off one, (and 3-3/8" off
the other), I'm thinking that if I cut half of 6-1/2", or 3-1/4", obviously
I'd have almost no top rail left. But how much top to leave, out of 6-1/2"?
There is approx. twice as much bottom as top - so maybe 33 and 66 percent,
cut off the top, and bottom, respectively. That leaves
(1) 3-3/8" x .333 = 1-1/8", so 2-5/8" top, and 4-1/2" bottom left, AND
(2) 6-1/2" x .333 = 2-5/16", 1-7/16" top, and 2-7/16" bottom left.

I think this looks good on paper. Maybe I'll come back and try the first
and second too.

Thanks

This is all in the basement.

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:53:31 -0500, "bent" wrote:

There is approx. twice as much bottom as top - so maybe 33 and 66 percent,
cut off the top, and bottom, respectively. That leaves
(1) 3-3/8" x .333 = 1-1/8", so 2-5/8" top, and 4-1/2" bottom left, AND
(2) 6-1/2" x .333 = 2-5/16", 1-7/16" top, and 2-7/16" bottom left.

I think this looks good on paper.

Sounds goods to me.

Mike O.

thanks for hanging in

replying to bent, millworkman wrote:
Home Depot does not cut doors in store. They can be special ordered to the
customer's desired measurements and cut custom by the manufacturer.

--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/woodwor...ons-59210-.htm

replying to bent, millworkman wrote:
Also the block around the perimeter of all hollow core doors made by Masonite
are all approximately 3/4". Don't cut anything more than 3/8" from any block/
Cut the entire block out and put it back in using wood glue and clamps to
ensure the block sets back on the door properly without jeopardizing its
structural integrity.

--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/woodwor...ons-59210-.htm