Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Dooler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Building workbench...how to level legs?

I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Thanks in advance
- Clayton
  #2   Report Post  
Lee Gordon
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You could install adjustable leveling feet in each of the legs, you could
just shim the short one(s), or you could build a level platform and set the
workbench on top of it.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

Lee Gordon
www.leegordonproductions.com


  #3   Report Post  
dgadams
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:23:37 -0700, Dooler wrote:

I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Thanks in advance
- Clayton


I have a slope in the floor of my garage. I placed the
table perpendicular to the the slope, and used shims to
get everything level. Given the table is a couple of
hundred pounds, everything is solid and level. If you
have serious unevenness, this solution may not work.
I did consider building a raised floor for the shop tools
that I would make level. Did that once with the back
porch when we converted it to a sun room. Compound slopes
in two directions. It was tough to level out.

DGA

  #4   Report Post  
BillyBob
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dooler" wrote in message
...
I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.

Any thoughts or ideas?



Well, my afternoon project is addressing this problem on my workbench. I'm
using these leveling feet available at Rockler http://tinyurl.com/9ao8v.
I'll let you know how it works out. If you really want to go beefy, see
charlie b's website at
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MT/CBbench20.html. Mine cost $2.50
each. I think Charlies are $15.00 each. Guess which one is bigger and more
heavy duty?

I found levelers on other websites similar to mine that quoted load bearing
of 300 lb each. That should be sufficient. My biggest concern is whether
they will cause the bench to slide around or not. I'll let you know.

BTW, my workbench is solid maple with 2 1/4" thick maple top, but its small
(28" x 54"). With its heavy bench vise and a drawer full of planes I am
guessing it weighs about 120 lb.

The DIY bench calls for mounting the vise directly to the edge of the bench.
I recommend you mortise the rear jaw into the bench and below the surface.
That allows you to have one continuous surface on top and the rear jaw of
the vise is part of a continuous surface with your bench apron. I put a 4'"
x 3/4" apron on my bench and extended it across the rear vise jaw. Its makes
for a much friendlier clamping situation.

Bob


  #5   Report Post  
Lew Hodgett
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dooler" wrote:


I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.

Any thoughts or ideas?



If I were faced with that problem, I'd build the bench with all legs the
same length/

Then cut 4 extra pieces of leg material, say 12"-18" long.

Put the bench in place and then using a small hydraulic jack and some
shim packs made from say 1/4" plywood, (The shim pack can be say 2"x6"),
level the bench.

When you have the bench totally level. then clamp a 12"-18" piece to
each leg so that it touches the floor and clamp in place with some C-Clamps.

Wait about 2 weeks, recheck bench for level. If level, bolt leg and
piece together with some 3/8 bolts and large fender washers, then remove
clamp.

SFWIW, ever wonder how they level out a 20 ton boat when they put it in
a cradle or a house when they move it?

Same way.

Lew


  #6   Report Post  
Lew Hodgett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lew Hodgett wrote:

If I were faced with that problem, I'd build the bench with all legs the
same length/

Then cut 4 extra pieces of leg material, say 12"-18" long.

Put the bench in place and then using a small hydraulic jack and some
shim packs made from say 1/4" plywood, (The shim pack can be say 2"x6"),
level the bench.

When you have the bench totally level. then clamp a 12"-18" piece to
each leg so that it touches the floor and clamp in place with some
C-Clamps.

Wait about 2 weeks, recheck bench for level. If level, bolt leg and
piece together with some 3/8 bolts and large fender washers, then remove
clamp.

SFWIW, ever wonder how they level out a 20 ton boat when they put it in
a cradle or a house when they move it?

Same way.


What I describe above comes under the heading of BFU (Butt F**K Ugly)

Use only the shim packs.

If you make them 3x6 the you can turn successive layer 90 degrees.

Another approach is to drill a hole in the bottom of the leg, then
install a 1/2-13 S/S Tee nut, then screw in a 1/2-13 x 3"-4" S/S
carriage bolt with a lock nut.

If you are on a concrete floor this works, a wood floor, stay with the
shim packs.

Lew

  #7   Report Post  
BillyBob
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

Put the bench in place and then using a small hydraulic jack and some
shim packs made from say 1/4" plywood, (The shim pack can be say 2"x6"),
level the bench.


I would think that 1/4" is way too thick to make fine adjustments on bench
level. As little as a 1/16" inch can make the difference between rock solid
and wobble (depends on how far apart the legs are but not much).

Bob


  #8   Report Post  
Lew Hodgett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

BillyBob wrote:



I would think that 1/4" is way too thick to make fine adjustments on bench
level. As little as a 1/16" inch can make the difference between rock solid
and wobble (depends on how far apart the legs are but not much).



So include some shims from a door skin.

Lew
  #9   Report Post  
Prometheus
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:23:37 -0700, Dooler
wrote:

I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.

Any thoughts or ideas?


The way I leveled my router table was to get four 3/4" bolts and
matching nuts from the hardware store, and use them as heavy-duty
levelers. Basically, I just drilled a 3/4" hole in the bottom of each
leg as deep as the bolt could go, then a slightly larger hole for the
nut to fit into. Six taps with the chisel turned that larger hole
into a nice hex-shaped mortise, and then the legs could be leveled
with a wrench no matter where I put it.

You can buy levelers as well, but this approach seemed more sturdy.
FWIW, I wouldn't make the legs different sizes. At worst, you're
better off just shimming them.
  #10   Report Post  
BillyBob
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Prometheus" wrote in message
...

The way I leveled my router table was to get four 3/4" bolts and
matching nuts from the hardware store, and use them as heavy-duty
levelers.


I like your idea. If I had seen it originally, I wouldn't have wasted the
money on levelers.

Bob




  #11   Report Post  
charlie b
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Couple of things to consider leg levelers
for your bench

1. you want some friction at the contact
area where the leveler meats the floor.
The ones I used are 3 " in diameter

2. you want the foot to swivel so it'll
sit flat on the floor

3. the easier they are to adjust the more
apt you are to relevel as things settle.
The ones I used are adjustable from
the top using an allen wrench - much
easier than trying to get two wrenches
under a leg/base

I don't know what the bench you're doing
look likes. The leve levelers I used work
great on a sled base - won't work on four
leg bench though. I also don't know if
this is the first of several benches you
intend to make. Most folks start out with
a quick and dirty bench which later becomes
an assembly bench and then build a
better, more useful one later. Some go
through several "ideal benches" before
settling on their "final bench".

Before I built Das Bench I went through
Scott Landis and Allen's workbench books
along with all the magazine articles I
could find on benches and bench building.
Asked questions here and from a few
woodworkers I know.

As strongly recomended, I bought the
hardware (vises) before working out
the first of many iterations of scaled
"plans".

Enjoy building your bench, you'll learn
a lot.

charlie b
  #12   Report Post  
B a r r y
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dooler wrote:
I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage.


Put T-nuts and hex bolts into the bottom ends of the legs. Thread a nut
on the bolt before installing it in the t-nut. Adjust the bench for
level and use the extra nut on each bolt to lock everything in place.

Barry
  #13   Report Post  
Upscale
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Prometheus" wrote in message

The way I leveled my router table was to get four 3/4" bolts and
matching nuts from the hardware store, and use them as heavy-duty
levelers. Basically, I just drilled a 3/4" hole in the bottom of each
leg as deep as the bolt could go, then a slightly larger hole for the
nut to fit into. Six taps with the chisel turned that larger hole
into a nice hex-shaped mortise, and then the legs could be leveled
with a wrench no matter where I put it.


Instead of sinking a nut into the wood, I was wondering if you considered
trying T-nets to the same effect?


  #14   Report Post  
Swingman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Dooler" wrote in message
I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.


You can stop the bench from rocking on an uneven floor, but that doesn't
necessarily mean that the bench is "level".

While the following doesn't necessarily apply to those Cadillac benches for
aesthetic reasons, it will work on any bench destined for use on an uneven
concrete floor like you find in garage shops, and it is cheap:

One trick that helps in solving both level and rocking problems, in that if
makes it much easier to shim, is to design the legs so that half of the
inside bottom of the leg (usually the inside half) is about 1/4 to 1/2"
shorter than the outside half, thusly:

* *
* *
* *
* *
* ******
*******

That "notch" on the foot of each leg makes it real easy to shim heavy
bench/work table for both level and rocking on all four legs. You can cut
the shallow notch into your solid legs, or if you make your bench legs out
of doubled 2 x 4's as many of us poor boys did, just make one tubufour
slightly shorter than the other.

FWIW

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/07/05





  #15   Report Post  
Conan The Librarian
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dooler wrote:

I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.


I leveled my bench by using the old style (dense rubber) mousepads
as shims. It also has the effect of preventing the bench from skidding
on the concrete floor.

I can't imagine *trying* to cut the legs unevenly.

Wait a second ... maybe if you *did* try to, then your legs would be
perfectly even. Heaven knows, doing it the other way didn't work.


Chuck Vance


  #16   Report Post  
Stephen M
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This really does not have to be complicated.

I have traditional maple bench that weighs in well over 200 lbs. The base
has 3"x3" horizontal members near the floor.

I cut 3"x3" x 1/2" *pads* =for the whole thing to rest on. I tried it a
recut the pads until everything sat just right.

One screw holds each pad to the bottom of the tressle cross member.

If/when I have to move and relevel the bench, I'll just make sone new pads.

-Steve


"Dooler" wrote in message
...
I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Thanks in advance
- Clayton



  #17   Report Post  
Roy Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Prometheus wrote:
You can buy levelers as well, but this approach seemed more sturdy.
FWIW, I wouldn't make the legs different sizes. At worst, you're
better off just shimming them.


Level? Forget level, I'm happy with "not rocking".

My bench is shimmed with squares of scrap cardboard. It never moves. I
did actually make some attempt to get it level front-to-back, because I've
got a bunch of drawers on ball-bearing slides, and if it's not level, the
drawers open or close by themselves, which is annoying.

I've got a bunch of things which move around in the shop (bandsaw, drill
press, router table, etc). For that, I've got a bunch of wooden wedges
that live on the floor. When I move something and it's rocking on the
uneven concrete floor, I just find the nearest wedge and kick it under the
short leg. Seems to work well enough.
  #18   Report Post  
Puckdropper
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Upscale" wrote in
:

*snip*

Instead of sinking a nut into the wood, I was wondering if you
considered trying T-nets to the same effect?



The problem with T-nuts is that they've got a tendency to come out if
you're moving something quite often. Not a problem for the typical work
bench, but for something like an N-trak module, it's definately
something to be aware of.

Puckdropper

--
www.uncreativelabs.net

Old computers are getting to be a lost art. Here at Uncreative Labs, we
still enjoy using the old computers. Sometimes we want to see how far a
particular system can go, other times we use a stock system to remind
ourselves of what we once had.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
  #19   Report Post  
Upscale
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Puckdropper" wrote in message

The problem with T-nuts is that they've got a tendency to come out if
you're moving something quite often. Not a problem for the typical work
bench, but for something like an N-trak module, it's definately
something to be aware of.


Thinking about it, I'd also guess that any type of standard bolt and nut
combination would cause the head to the bolt to gouge whatever type of floor
that the bench is sitting on, especially so with a really heavy bench. Guess
there's nothing to match a really level floor.


  #20   Report Post  
Puckdropper
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Upscale" wrote in
:

Thinking about it, I'd also guess that any type of standard bolt and
nut combination would cause the head to the bolt to gouge whatever
type of floor that the bench is sitting on, especially so with a
really heavy bench. Guess there's nothing to match a really level
floor.




What I've considered doing is putting the felt "feet" on the bolt head
(just a little smaller than the head) to keep it from messing up the
surfaces. I haven't tried it yet, but it'll be a lot better than bolt
vs. floor surface.

If you aren't going to be moving the bench a lot (who does?) you could
put the levelers on the TOP of the leg rather than the bottom and that
would solve the floor problem.

Puckdropper

--
www.uncreativelabs.net

Old computers are getting to be a lost art. Here at Uncreative Labs, we
still enjoy using the old computers. Sometimes we want to see how far a
particular system can go, other times we use a stock system to remind
ourselves of what we once had.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm


  #21   Report Post  
mac davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:23:37 -0700, Dooler wrote:

I am wanting to build a workbench, but am unsure how to handle the
slope/unevenness in my garage. Do I make one leg longer than another?
Doing this would make it unlevel if I ever move. The legs/body is
going to be from hard maple and design is based off the how-to bench
from DIY network's show woodworking.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Thanks in advance
- Clayton


Being lazy, and starting with a bench that I built for a level floor, I used the
following method: (YMMV)

Drill 2 3/8" or larger holes in each "down hill" leg...

Mark matching holes in short pieces of scrap that matches leg.. (in my case, 2 x
6")

Rout adjustment slots in the pieces of scrap, usually 1 1/2" or so will do it...

Lift low end with floor jack until level...

Bolt scrap on legs with carriage bolts...

Lower bench and check level..

After adding these, I didn't like the look of the scrap blocks, (I put them on
the outside of the leg, to avoid a cross beam), I added a 2 x 4" across the 2
scrap blocks for a foot rest...




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing
  #22   Report Post  
BillyBob
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"BillyBob" wrote in message
nk.net...

Well, my afternoon project is addressing this problem on my workbench.

I'm
using these leveling feet available at Rockler http://tinyurl.com/9ao8v.
I'll let you know how it works out.


I installed them and they worked like a champ. I am using in a garage on
bare concrete. I move the bench around on a wheeled carriage frequently so
i have a need to re-adjust the feet often. I did not detect in slippage on
the concrete floor. I found the ability to use screw adjustment as opposed
to shims to be superior and more easy to get right quickly. Prior to this,
I was using wood shim wedges under the legs. The screw adjustment is much
more precise and allows me to get it perfect which adds to the stability.

Bob


  #23   Report Post  
Badger
 
Posts: n/a
Default

BillyBob wrote:
I installed them and they worked like a champ. I am using in a garage on
bare concrete. I move the bench around on a wheeled carriage frequently so
i have a need to re-adjust the feet often. I did not detect in slippage on
the concrete floor. I found the ability to use screw adjustment as opposed
to shims to be superior and more easy to get right quickly. Prior to this,
I was using wood shim wedges under the legs. The screw adjustment is much
more precise and allows me to get it perfect which adds to the stability.

Bob


I'd go for Footmaster leveling foot castors, a combined castor and screw
down/jacking foot, put a set on a 6'x6'x16' steel frame we needed to be
able to move at work, it carries a 1000lb plus weight split furnace, no
problems with movement or stability.

Niel.
  #24   Report Post  
Bruce
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:04:04 -0600, BillyBob wrote
(in article et):


"Prometheus" wrote in message
...

The way I leveled my router table was to get four 3/4" bolts and
matching nuts from the hardware store, and use them as heavy-duty
levelers.


I like your idea. If I had seen it originally, I wouldn't have wasted the
money on levelers.

Bob



I read about using lag screws the same way (no nut needed)
-Bruce

  #25   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:59:45 -0600, Bruce wrote:

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:04:04 -0600, BillyBob wrote
(in article et):


"Prometheus" wrote in message
...

The way I leveled my router table was to get four 3/4" bolts and
matching nuts from the hardware store, and use them as heavy-duty
levelers.


I like your idea. If I had seen it originally, I wouldn't have wasted the
money on levelers.

Bob



I read about using lag screws the same way (no nut needed)
-Bruce




that's how I have my big bench set up. the loegs are 4x6, with 1/2"
lags in from the botom, prolly close to a foot of thread engaging
wood. it lets me "tune" the height and level as things around it
shift.


  #26   Report Post  
Prometheus
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:04:04 GMT, "BillyBob"
wrote:


"Prometheus" wrote in message
.. .

The way I leveled my router table was to get four 3/4" bolts and
matching nuts from the hardware store, and use them as heavy-duty
levelers.


I like your idea. If I had seen it originally, I wouldn't have wasted the
money on levelers.


Funny thing is, I went to the store to get levelers, but all they had
were skimpy ones, so I went with that. Works nice, and I'm sure
you'll be making more tables, benches, etc. at some point, so I'm sure
you can try it out some other time!



  #27   Report Post  
Prometheus
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:23:18 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Prometheus" wrote in message

The way I leveled my router table was to get four 3/4" bolts and
matching nuts from the hardware store, and use them as heavy-duty
levelers. Basically, I just drilled a 3/4" hole in the bottom of each
leg as deep as the bolt could go, then a slightly larger hole for the
nut to fit into. Six taps with the chisel turned that larger hole
into a nice hex-shaped mortise, and then the legs could be leveled
with a wrench no matter where I put it.


Instead of sinking a nut into the wood, I was wondering if you considered
trying T-nets to the same effect?


I did, but they didn't have any T-nuts that size, and I thought it'd
be interesting to make a hex-shaped mortise for a change anyhow.
IIRC, to lay it out I ended up threading the nut partially on the
bolt, then sliding in and just tracing around it. Only took a couple
of minutes per leg- much easier and less fussy than tradtional M&T.



  #28   Report Post  
Prometheus
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 09 Aug 2005 16:15:12 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

"Upscale" wrote in
:

Thinking about it, I'd also guess that any type of standard bolt and
nut combination would cause the head to the bolt to gouge whatever
type of floor that the bench is sitting on, especially so with a
really heavy bench. Guess there's nothing to match a really level
floor.




What I've considered doing is putting the felt "feet" on the bolt head
(just a little smaller than the head) to keep it from messing up the
surfaces. I haven't tried it yet, but it'll be a lot better than bolt
vs. floor surface.

If you aren't going to be moving the bench a lot (who does?) you could
put the levelers on the TOP of the leg rather than the bottom and that
would solve the floor problem.


You could also round the edges of the bolt on a belt sander or
grinder. Unless you've got a really spiffy floor on your shop, it
probably doesn't need all that much babying.



  #29   Report Post  
Jay Pique
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Have you got a drill press? If so, set your depth adjustment and drill
a hole half way through the center of a small piece of square scrap.
Repeat four times (with identical thickness scrap). Level the bench
with the lag bolts, then slip the scrap over each head so you don't
gouge the floor. You could even bevel the edges so they'd slide a
little.

JP

  #30   Report Post  
BillyBob
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Badger" wrote in message
...

I'd go for Footmaster leveling foot castors, a combined castor and screw
down/jacking foot, put a set on a 6'x6'x16' steel frame we needed to be
able to move at work, it carries a 1000lb plus weight split furnace, no
problems with movement or stability.


Nice product. I could only find the Japanese home web site. Where do you buy
these in the Western hemisphere?

Bob




  #31   Report Post  
Art Greenberg
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:53:27 GMT, BillyBob wrote:

"Badger" wrote in message
...

I'd go for Footmaster leveling foot castors, a combined castor and screw
down/jacking foot, put a set on a 6'x6'x16' steel frame we needed to be
able to move at work, it carries a 1000lb plus weight split furnace, no
problems with movement or stability.


Nice product. I could only find the Japanese home web site. Where do you buy
these in the Western hemisphere?

Bob


I found them at http://www.castersupply.com

Be prepared for sticker shock.

--
Art Greenberg
artg AT eclipse (remove this) DOT net
  #32   Report Post  
Badger
 
Posts: n/a
Default

BillyBob wrote:
"Badger" wrote in message
...


I'd go for Footmaster leveling foot castors, a combined castor and screw
down/jacking foot, put a set on a 6'x6'x16' steel frame we needed to be
able to move at work, it carries a 1000lb plus weight split furnace, no
problems with movement or stability.



Nice product. I could only find the Japanese home web site. Where do you buy
these in the Western hemisphere?

Bob


RS components in the UK: http://www.rs-components.com/index.html will
get you a map, they do world wide shipping...

Niel.
  #33   Report Post  
Badger
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Art Greenberg wrote:


I found them at http://www.castersupply.com

Be prepared for sticker shock.

About the same as we paid allowing for conversion to £ and taxes...
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rollie's Dad's method artfulbodger Metalworking 73 May 18th 05 12:14 AM
Workbench Plans Added to Workbench Website Tim C Woodworking 9 March 24th 05 04:13 AM
Windsor Plywood Scam - Saskatoon James \(Garry\) Hunter Woodworking 19 January 4th 05 05:12 PM
Building a two story garden building! antz UK diy 2 August 24th 04 01:29 AM
Building Warrants - Buying Flat Without L Reid UK diy 6 July 16th 03 04:54 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"