Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters.

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  #1   Report Post  
George
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Had to work, but SWMBO recorded all but the first few minutes of Norm Abram
venturing into bowl turning Saturday. It was a repeat, I have to believe,
as he was using what looked to be a 46-700 Delta.

Now I know that a lot of people, perhaps most, don't turn as I do, but I
found myself talking to the tube as he stepped up to the spinning blank,
placing his body in the throw zone. Then when he turned his gouge (yes, a
bowl gouge - Packard WW logo) almost nose up and began to round the blank
that way, I had to close my eyes. Does anyone really do things this way?
Have to believe Norm got some sort of instruction prior to the episode, so
someone must, but why?

I'm a coward, so I never put my body into the throw zone, rather I work from
the tailstock end. Tried the other way and didn't like the odd dirt, water,
and bark that could come off and hit me, much less the hidden crack that
might release a chunk in search of my chin. I also begin my cuts at the
base and orient the gouge so the paring cut is being taken across the blank
from bottom to top, rather than turn the nose up where it might tear huge
chunks out of the end grain. With the paring cut there's no direction
difference felt, because I'm cutting face grain entirely, really rather than
running the long grain and digging end.

It makes more sense to me to stand clear of the throw zone and pare, rather
than cut and tear my way around. Maybe that's why people complain about
chucks being weak, needing full body armor to turn, and not using the
biggest edge they own to waste away wood - they're cutting like Norm!


  #2   Report Post  
Phil Anselm
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

George,
Sorry, but I'm unable to picture the techniques in my mind when you discuss
how the gouge is used.
I've been sort of "lurking" in this group a while. I'm self-taught; I've
read a bunch of books on
turning, but never been mentored or even seen a video. I'm trying as best I
can to learn good
practices. My approach with the gouge depends on whether I'm making a cove
or a bead.
For a cove, I usually rest the the gouge on the piece, flat, not cutting,
and slowly back the gouge
until it just begins to shave, then roll the gouge into the bead, cutting
with the side cutting edge
of the gouge. For a steep cove, I rotate the gouge 90 degrees before
cutting, so the gouge
is resting on its edge. The gouge is then lowered delicately into the cove,
rotating as it goes,
again cutting with the off-center cutting edge of the gouge. If you could
clarify your techniques,
I'd very much appreciate it, so I could experiment. Many thanks. -- Phil
"George" wrote in message
...
Had to work, but SWMBO recorded all but the first few minutes of Norm

Abram
venturing into bowl turning Saturday. It was a repeat, I have to

believe,
as he was using what looked to be a 46-700 Delta.

Now I know that a lot of people, perhaps most, don't turn as I do, but I
found myself talking to the tube as he stepped up to the spinning blank,
placing his body in the throw zone. Then when he turned his gouge (yes, a
bowl gouge - Packard WW logo) almost nose up and began to round the blank
that way, I had to close my eyes. Does anyone really do things this way?
Have to believe Norm got some sort of instruction prior to the episode, so
someone must, but why?

I'm a coward, so I never put my body into the throw zone, rather I work

from
the tailstock end. Tried the other way and didn't like the odd dirt,

water,
and bark that could come off and hit me, much less the hidden crack that
might release a chunk in search of my chin. I also begin my cuts at the
base and orient the gouge so the paring cut is being taken across the

blank
from bottom to top, rather than turn the nose up where it might tear huge
chunks out of the end grain. With the paring cut there's no direction
difference felt, because I'm cutting face grain entirely, really rather

than
running the long grain and digging end.

It makes more sense to me to stand clear of the throw zone and pare,

rather
than cut and tear my way around. Maybe that's why people complain about
chucks being weak, needing full body armor to turn, and not using the
biggest edge they own to waste away wood - they're cutting like Norm!




  #3   Report Post  
Peter Teubel
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:36:00 GMT, "George" wrote:

It makes more sense to me to stand clear of the throw zone and pare, rather
than cut and tear my way around. Maybe that's why people complain about
chucks being weak, needing full body armor to turn, and not using the
biggest edge they own to waste away wood - they're cutting like Norm!


Everyone does it their own way. There is no absolute right or wrong way. Personally, I'm always in the "throw zone"...sometimes
inches from the wood to do detail work. Turning is inherently dangerous. Can't be helped. The only true safe way to turn is to NOT
turn.

Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
http://www.revolutionary-turners.com
  #4   Report Post  
George
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Sounds like you're talking spindle. I was speaking of bowl. I like to cut
across and down rather than try to fight with the alternating end and long
grain. Lot less likely to catch, gouge, or otherwise rip a bit of punky
wood out of a spalted piece that way.

Your technique is bit different than I teach for spindles. I like the gouge
rolled up near its edge (near your 90 degrees), center of gouge slightly
above center of piece, toolrest well below center. I nose the gouge down
and toward the center of the cove until I catch the shaving, roll to center
of same, repeat in opposite roll from other side. For bead, same technique,
but more down than roll. Truth, I like my beading tool, or a Bedan, or a
1/4 parting tool over a gouge for that. Easier to maintain the shaving a
consistent thickness.

Self taught isn't like the old saw about representing yourself in court.
You don't have a fool for a teacher. You might have a fool for a pupil if
you don't ask about when you have a recurring problem, though.

"Phil Anselm" wrote in message
...
George,
Sorry, but I'm unable to picture the techniques in my mind when you

discuss
how the gouge is used.
I've been sort of "lurking" in this group a while. I'm self-taught; I've
read a bunch of books on
turning, but never been mentored or even seen a video. I'm trying as best

I
can to learn good
practices. My approach with the gouge depends on whether I'm making a

cove
or a bead.
For a cove, I usually rest the the gouge on the piece, flat, not cutting,
and slowly back the gouge
until it just begins to shave, then roll the gouge into the bead, cutting
with the side cutting edge
of the gouge. For a steep cove, I rotate the gouge 90 degrees before
cutting, so the gouge
is resting on its edge. The gouge is then lowered delicately into the

cove,
rotating as it goes,
again cutting with the off-center cutting edge of the gouge. If you could
clarify your techniques,
I'd very much appreciate it, so I could experiment. Many thanks. -- Phil



  #5   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday


Peter Teubel wrote: (clip) Everyone does it their own way. There is no
absolute right or wrong way. Personally, I'm always in the "throw
zone"...sometimes inches from the wood to do detail work (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's fine for you, Peter, and I'm sure every one of us does things which
could be considered unsafe from time to time. But remember, Norm is up
there as a teacher/demonstrator/roll model. He always pefaces his
demonstrations with a brief lecture on safety, particularly of eye
protection. For him to engage in a practice that is less than safe, for the
edification of the general public, including beginners, and particularly
youngsters, with no evident awareness of the consequences, is worthy of
criticism. (That sentence should be rewritten, but I'll just pretend I'm
imitating William Buckley.)




  #6   Report Post  
Ken Bullock
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

I am not for nor against Norm... , But I think that he does have a good show
and puts his reputation on the line every week when he putson his show,
because it is so easy to sit back and make critcal observatioins of any one
doing anything... There will always be someone who disagrees with the doer's
approach...... He is doing his best and it was likely only the second bowl
he ever turned, the first one was during rehursal..... I wouldn't take his
job.... Have fun with it, that is what it is all about.... Good turning to
you all..... Ken...

--
Ken & Debbie Bullock (Woodturners)

Woodturning videos at:
http://www.oneofakindwoodturnings.com
SKP # 82323
SKP #
"George" wrote in message
...
Had to work, but SWMBO recorded all but the first few minutes of Norm

Abram
venturing into bowl turning Saturday. It was a repeat, I have to

believe,
as he was using what looked to be a 46-700 Delta.

Now I know that a lot of people, perhaps most, don't turn as I do, but I
found myself talking to the tube as he stepped up to the spinning blank,
placing his body in the throw zone. Then when he turned his gouge (yes, a
bowl gouge - Packard WW logo) almost nose up and began to round the blank
that way, I had to close my eyes. Does anyone really do things this way?
Have to believe Norm got some sort of instruction prior to the episode, so
someone must, but why?

I'm a coward, so I never put my body into the throw zone, rather I work

from
the tailstock end. Tried the other way and didn't like the odd dirt,

water,
and bark that could come off and hit me, much less the hidden crack that
might release a chunk in search of my chin. I also begin my cuts at the
base and orient the gouge so the paring cut is being taken across the

blank
from bottom to top, rather than turn the nose up where it might tear huge
chunks out of the end grain. With the paring cut there's no direction
difference felt, because I'm cutting face grain entirely, really rather

than
running the long grain and digging end.

It makes more sense to me to stand clear of the throw zone and pare,

rather
than cut and tear my way around. Maybe that's why people complain about
chucks being weak, needing full body armor to turn, and not using the
biggest edge they own to waste away wood - they're cutting like Norm!




  #7   Report Post  
Peter Teubel
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:13:58 GMT, "Leo Lichtman" wrote:


Peter Teubel wrote: (clip) Everyone does it their own way. There is no
absolute right or wrong way. Personally, I'm always in the "throw
zone"...sometimes inches from the wood to do detail work (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's fine for you, Peter, and I'm sure every one of us does things which
could be considered unsafe from time to time. But remember, Norm is up
there as a teacher/demonstrator/roll model. He always pefaces his
demonstrations with a brief lecture on safety, particularly of eye
protection. For him to engage in a practice that is less than safe, for the
edification of the general public, including beginners, and particularly
youngsters, with no evident awareness of the consequences, is worthy of
criticism. (That sentence should be rewritten, but I'll just pretend I'm
imitating William Buckley.)


I must disagree with you, Leo. I have that episode on tape and after viewing it I (personally) feel that he was doing nothing
grossly "unsafe". Grossly inefficient, yes...but not unsafe. Lots of people turn...AND TEACH...that way. IMO, to be afraid (not
just respectful) of the throw zone is to limit one's self from alot of great cutting techniques. In fact, I really don't see how
anyone can turn WITHOUT being in the throw zone.

Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
http://www.revolutionary-turners.com
  #8   Report Post  
Ruth
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday


Peter wrote responding to Leo: ....snip.... "In fact, I really don't see
how anyone can turn WITHOUT being in the throw zone."
************************
After looking through my books, 2 videos and remembering all the demos I
saw at shows, I have to agree with Peter here.

This thread and the other about "I'm confused" is bordering on saying:
"Newbies are stupid and have no common sense, we must treat them like 5
yr. olds."

Yes, safety is important.
Yes, safety should, must be expressed.
Yes, ALL machines are potentially dangerous.
Yes, grown men have had "accidents".

But to be perfectly "SAFE" the turner should:
*wear a shield
*wear a respirator
*wear ear protection
*wear a leather shop apron
*wear steal-tipped shoes
(all of the above, not one out of the 5)
*have an exhaust system on the lathe
*never stand in front of the lathe
*never use a tool for other than its "name" designates
*never try anything that hasn't been approved by "professionals"

How many of you have seen even two of these "safety" things used by the
demonstrators at the AAW Symposia?
Club demos?

Yes, we have a responsibility to express potential dangers with various
techniques, machines, finishes, tools, etc., but we are dealing with
thinking adults, aren't we? Then again, I guess it's the way of the
world today, everyone else is responsible for what a man does.

I don't think any newbie should be allowed in his shop alone for the
first 3 months.

I'm beginning to feel I'm not qualified to turn or talk about it. I
stand in the wrong place, use the wrong tools for the wrong job, don't
wear all the necessary protection all the time, don't tell people who
might be allergic to bee stings that I use beeswax on bowls.

Sorry about the rant......actually I guess I'm not really sorry if I hit
the "send" button, right?

Ruth

Woodturners Logo
My shop and Turnings at
http://www.torne-lignum.com

  #9   Report Post  
Ralph Fedorak
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Thank you Ruth. I was about to lock the door to my shop because I
haven't been following all the "rules" and doing things "right" and was
getting scared that the Tool Police might come after me.

Beginners should be given all the encouragement and advice possible, but
they should also be able to experiment with what they are most
comfortable with. What do some of these "experts" say about roughting
out a bowl with a chain saw?

Ralph

  #10   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday


Peter Teubel wrote: I must disagree with you, Leo. I have that episode on
tape and after viewing it I (personally) feel that he was doing nothing
grossly "unsafe (clip) In fact, I really don't see how anyone can turn
WITHOUT being in the throw zone.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Peter, I have not seen this particular program, so my comments were based
only on the earlier posts. After reading yours, however, I have changed my
mind.





  #11   Report Post  
Tony Manella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Hi George,
I do find myself in the throw zone quite often with many of the items I turn
but not too often with bowls. I turn them in a similar way to yours. But
woodturning is not about right and wrong but what works for you. If I
remember correctly you are one of the people who uses a roughing gouge to
remove the wood from the inside of a bowl. While I consider this rather
dangerous and opt for the tool designed for this purpose, you find it to be
completely safe to do this and encourage others here to do the same. Is
either of us right or wrong? No, just opinionated.

Did he wear, what I consider the most important piece of woodturning
equipment, a face shield? In my opinion anyone who turns without wearing
one is just asking for a face alteration.
Tony Manella
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.org/

"George" wrote in message
...
Had to work, but SWMBO recorded all but the first few minutes of Norm

Abram
venturing into bowl turning Saturday. It was a repeat, I have to

believe,
as he was using what looked to be a 46-700 Delta.

Now I know that a lot of people, perhaps most, don't turn as I do, but I
found myself talking to the tube as he stepped up to the spinning blank,
placing his body in the throw zone. Then when he turned his gouge (yes, a
bowl gouge - Packard WW logo) almost nose up and began to round the blank
that way, I had to close my eyes. Does anyone really do things this way?
Have to believe Norm got some sort of instruction prior to the episode, so
someone must, but why?

I'm a coward, so I never put my body into the throw zone, rather I work

from
the tailstock end. Tried the other way and didn't like the odd dirt,

water,
and bark that could come off and hit me, much less the hidden crack that
might release a chunk in search of my chin. I also begin my cuts at the
base and orient the gouge so the paring cut is being taken across the

blank
from bottom to top, rather than turn the nose up where it might tear huge
chunks out of the end grain. With the paring cut there's no direction
difference felt, because I'm cutting face grain entirely, really rather

than
running the long grain and digging end.

It makes more sense to me to stand clear of the throw zone and pare,

rather
than cut and tear my way around. Maybe that's why people complain about
chucks being weak, needing full body armor to turn, and not using the
biggest edge they own to waste away wood - they're cutting like Norm!




  #12   Report Post  
Leslie Gossett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

I don't see any way to hollow a bowl without being in the "throw zone". Even
with the longest gouges, if you don't stand in front of the bowl, you will
certainly have deep and dangerous catches.

Leslie Gossett

"George" wrote in message
...
Had to work, but SWMBO recorded all but the first few minutes of Norm

Abram
venturing into bowl turning Saturday. It was a repeat, I have to

believe,
as he was using what looked to be a 46-700 Delta.

Now I know that a lot of people, perhaps most, don't turn as I do, but I
found myself talking to the tube as he stepped up to the spinning blank,
placing his body in the throw zone. Then when he turned his gouge (yes, a
bowl gouge - Packard WW logo) almost nose up and began to round the blank
that way, I had to close my eyes. Does anyone really do things this way?
Have to believe Norm got some sort of instruction prior to the episode, so
someone must, but why?

I'm a coward, so I never put my body into the throw zone, rather I work

from
the tailstock end. Tried the other way and didn't like the odd dirt,

water,
and bark that could come off and hit me, much less the hidden crack that
might release a chunk in search of my chin. I also begin my cuts at the
base and orient the gouge so the paring cut is being taken across the

blank
from bottom to top, rather than turn the nose up where it might tear huge
chunks out of the end grain. With the paring cut there's no direction
difference felt, because I'm cutting face grain entirely, really rather

than
running the long grain and digging end.

It makes more sense to me to stand clear of the throw zone and pare,

rather
than cut and tear my way around. Maybe that's why people complain about
chucks being weak, needing full body armor to turn, and not using the
biggest edge they own to waste away wood - they're cutting like Norm!




  #13   Report Post  
Leif Thorvaldson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Something that has not been mentioned is the definition of the "throw zone."
That IMHO could be anywhere in a 180 horizontal and vertical direction on
the tailstock side of the headstock. I have had wood come off the lathe in
a variety of directions depending on bounce/richochet factors. There could
well be a danger standing on the other side of the headstock! In the
interest of safety, I suggest that all lathes be equiped with CAM and
robotics gear so that the turner need not be in the shop during the
dangerous turning operations! Of course, if you'd use LDD . . . ! *G*

Leif
"George" wrote in message
...
Had to work, but SWMBO recorded all but the first few minutes of Norm

Abram
venturing into bowl turning Saturday. It was a repeat, I have to

believe,
as he was using what looked to be a 46-700 Delta.

Now I know that a lot of people, perhaps most, don't turn as I do, but I
found myself talking to the tube as he stepped up to the spinning blank,
placing his body in the throw zone. Then when he turned his gouge (yes, a
bowl gouge - Packard WW logo) almost nose up and began to round the blank
that way, I had to close my eyes. Does anyone really do things this way?
Have to believe Norm got some sort of instruction prior to the episode, so
someone must, but why?

I'm a coward, so I never put my body into the throw zone, rather I work

from
the tailstock end. Tried the other way and didn't like the odd dirt,

water,
and bark that could come off and hit me, much less the hidden crack that
might release a chunk in search of my chin. I also begin my cuts at the
base and orient the gouge so the paring cut is being taken across the

blank
from bottom to top, rather than turn the nose up where it might tear huge
chunks out of the end grain. With the paring cut there's no direction
difference felt, because I'm cutting face grain entirely, really rather

than
running the long grain and digging end.

It makes more sense to me to stand clear of the throw zone and pare,

rather
than cut and tear my way around. Maybe that's why people complain about
chucks being weak, needing full body armor to turn, and not using the
biggest edge they own to waste away wood - they're cutting like Norm!




  #15   Report Post  
Ralph Fedorak
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

I have to agree with you on the face shield Tony. I got hit in the face
with a large piece of bark and nearly blacked out some years ago.
Fortunately that was all the damage(I have a very thick skull) but that
convinced me that I needed some type of defence against wayward flying
debri.

Best Investment I made.

Ralph



  #16   Report Post  
Juergen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Ruth


"I don't think any newbie should be allowed in his shop alone for the
first 3 months."

If this statement were true most of the turners I know would be knitting
now.

Juergen



Ruth wrote:

Peter wrote responding to Leo: ....snip.... "In fact, I really don't see
how anyone can turn WITHOUT being in the throw zone."
************************
After looking through my books, 2 videos and remembering all the demos I
saw at shows, I have to agree with Peter here.

This thread and the other about "I'm confused" is bordering on saying:
"Newbies are stupid and have no common sense, we must treat them like 5
yr. olds."

Yes, safety is important.
Yes, safety should, must be expressed.
Yes, ALL machines are potentially dangerous.
Yes, grown men have had "accidents".

But to be perfectly "SAFE" the turner should:
*wear a shield
*wear a respirator
*wear ear protection
*wear a leather shop apron
*wear steal-tipped shoes
(all of the above, not one out of the 5)
*have an exhaust system on the lathe
*never stand in front of the lathe
*never use a tool for other than its "name" designates
*never try anything that hasn't been approved by "professionals"

How many of you have seen even two of these "safety" things used by the
demonstrators at the AAW Symposia?
Club demos?

Yes, we have a responsibility to express potential dangers with various
techniques, machines, finishes, tools, etc., but we are dealing with
thinking adults, aren't we? Then again, I guess it's the way of the
world today, everyone else is responsible for what a man does.

I don't think any newbie should be allowed in his shop alone for the
first 3 months.

I'm beginning to feel I'm not qualified to turn or talk about it. I
stand in the wrong place, use the wrong tools for the wrong job, don't
wear all the necessary protection all the time, don't tell people who
might be allergic to bee stings that I use beeswax on bowls.

Sorry about the rant......actually I guess I'm not really sorry if I hit
the "send" button, right?

Ruth

Woodturners Logo
My shop and Turnings at
http://www.torne-lignum.com




  #17   Report Post  
Kip055
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

I don't see any way to hollow a bowl without being in the "throw zone".

I have read some of this thread, may have missed something, but if you are
using a lathe with a swivel head, it is not at all difficult to be out of the
"throw zone" (if one assumes that the zone is a line through the vessel and
perpendicular to the headstock axis)

Kip Powers
Rogers, AR
  #18   Report Post  
Jim M
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Gotta watch out for those darned knitting needles. Might puncture an artery.
ducks out of the way
--Jim

"Juergen" wrote in message
. ..
Ruth


"I don't think any newbie should be allowed in his shop alone for the
first 3 months."

If this statement were true most of the turners I know would be knitting
now.

Juergen



  #19   Report Post  
Bill
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday

Leo,

Did you see Norm's demonstration or are you making an assumption that he
was not being safe?

Bill


************************************************** *********************


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in
:

That's fine for you, Peter, and I'm sure every one of us does things
which could be considered unsafe from time to time. But remember,
Norm is up there as a teacher/demonstrator/roll model. He always
pefaces his demonstrations with a brief lecture on safety,
particularly of eye protection. For him to engage in a practice that
is less than safe, for the edification of the general public,
including beginners, and particularly youngsters, with no evident
awareness of the consequences, is worthy of criticism. (That
sentence should be rewritten, but I'll just pretend I'm imitating
William Buckley.)


  #20   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday


Bill wrote: Leo, Did you see Norm's demonstration or are you making an
assumption that he was not being safe?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bill, I did NOT see the program, and I WAS making an assumption. I
responded to Peter Teubel in a subsequent post, pretty much retracting what
I said. Sorry if you missed it.




  #22   Report Post  
James Johnson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Norm Turned a Bowl Saturday


"Ralph Fedorak" wrote in message
news:c7D9b.20486$Cu3.2500@edtnps84...
Thank you Ruth. I was about to lock the door to my shop because I
haven't been following all the "rules" and doing things "right" and was
getting scared that the Tool Police might come after me.

Beginners should be given all the encouragement and advice possible, but
they should also be able to experiment with what they are most
comfortable with. What do some of these "experts" say about roughting
out a bowl with a chain saw?

Ralph


Depends upon whether the lathe is turned on or off while you use the chain
saw!!!

James Johnson



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