[Darrell Feltmate]

Just a question related to the topic of going big, but i did not want to
ruin that thread.
Some of the big metal lathes way a half ton or more and are stable enough to
turn a large chunch of steel. Why would you not get one of those for large
bowls? They look to be about half the price and the slow speed should be
good not bad for large turnings. they all seem to come with chucks and
threading capability and all that neat stuff. Besides, with a good clean up
you could turn steel too.
I am surely missing something here and am open to comment or critidism. I am
not a metal turner by any stretch.
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

[Fred Holder]

Metal lathes are generally quite large and heavy and not suitable for
most hobby woodturners. However, for extreme precision woodturning,
metal lathes are hard to beat. I know several people, who turn
extremely intricate pieces, that use metal lathes to do the job. Most
musical instrument makers use metal lathes because the average wood
lathe does not provide the required precision.

I think the other point is that most woodturners like the capability
to control the turning with hand held tools, it is a skill thing.
Also, wood cuts cleaner at higher surface speeds; therefore, on small
pieces higher rotational speed is needed to get the required surface
speed. Most metal large metal lathes do not offer the higher speed
option.

When I first started turning, I used a Craftsman metal lathe that I
had for turning metal pieces for doing gunsmithing work. I simply
needed to turn some wooden items and I had that lathe. I used a piece
of angle iron as a tool rest, bolting it to the tool holder. This gave
me the option of using hand held tools. That lathe also had a high
speed range suitable for turning wood.

I hope I've answered your question.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

On Mar 6, 7:17 am, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:
Just a question related to the topic of going big, but i did not want to
ruin that thread.
Some of the big metal lathes way a half ton or more and are stable enough to
turn a large chunch of steel. Why would you not get one of those for large
bowls? They look to be about half the price and the slow speed should be
good not bad for large turnings. they all seem to come with chucks and
threading capability and all that neat stuff. Besides, with a good clean up
you could turn steel too.
I am surely missing something here and am open to comment or critidism. I am
not a metal turner by any stretch.
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canadawww.aroundthewoods.com

[charlieb]

I think it might be a Swing thing. Large diameter bowls -
by that I mean 24 or more inches in diameter - require
a greater distance from between centers to the lathe's
ways. And you need to deduct some from that dimension
to the tool rest banjo. Machinist lathes - that you can
actually fit in an amateur/hobbiest "shop" just don't have
that sized swing.

The other issue is hollowing in from the end. If you've
spent any time at all leaning over the lathe doing
hollowing you soon learn that supporting your upper
body weight with your lower back almost guarantees
some Chiropractor an income enhancement, or some
time on the couch with either a heating pad or an ice
pack. Add leaning over farther to see inside the
piece and the problem gets worse - in a hurry. Long
lathe beds only add further to the leaning problem.

Now some lathe makers got around part of that Lean
Over Work problem by providing the option of turning
the drive end part 90 or 180 degrees - for "outboard
turning". That solution however, requires some way
to support the tool rest. Swing out arms attached
to the lathe's base has been one solution. Others
have come up with a stand alone stand to hold the
tool rest. Neither solution is as good as the one
Stubby came up with - the three ways positions options
PLUS the ability to rotate their answer to the normal
banjo to support the tool rest.

The Stubby significantly reduces the leaning over
problem - adjustable center height, short bed when
you need it, longer when you need that, and multiple
solid locations for supporting the tool rest.

While the OneWay addresses some of these "challenges"
it's center height is fixed and there's no way to mount
a solid tool rest support at 90s to the long axis.

Metal lathes just don't have the flexibility of this type
of special lathes.

charlie b

[Arch]

Hi Darrell,

I don't mean to argue from my position of ignorance, but are you sure
that weight for weight, and particularly swing for swing, a metal lathe
with the same 'credentials' as a woodturning lathe doesn't cost a whole
lot more? I love my Sheldon metal lathe, but it only swings 10 in. and
it cost a lot more than my 10 in. VL100.


The usual (not sure about brake drum and other special use machines)
metal lathe that could swing a 24 in. bowl would likely not fit into a
home shop as well as a wood lathe of equal quality and swing. I don't
think most metal lathes have outboard adaptability.


IMHO, a Canadian, American, Australian Belgium or British metal lathe
with the overall quality, swing and rpm range of a Oneway, Robust,
Vicmarc, Wivamac or VB36, ...and that great lathe sold by a first rate
fellow turner in St. Louis will cost thousands more. At least, I'd
presume so, since precision geared spindles, back gears, carriages,
compounds, power feeds, threading gears, etc, don't come cheap.


I don't know if stripped down metal lathes suitable for turning wood are
available, but I'd think a high quality metal lathe without its high
quality tooling is more helpless and useless than a similar quality wood
lathe without its accessories.

Talk about ruining a thread!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

[George]

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
The other issue is hollowing in from the end. If you've
spent any time at all leaning over the lathe doing
hollowing you soon learn that supporting your upper
body weight with your lower back almost guarantees
some Chiropractor an income enhancement, or some
time on the couch with either a heating pad or an ice
pack. Add leaning over farther to see inside the
piece and the problem gets worse - in a hurry. Long
lathe beds only add further to the leaning problem.


No problem working over the bed, really, just don't employ the techniques
you'd use on the end, rather those suited for cutting at centerline. I
stand straight up and work bowls, I just use different gouges suited to the
task.

Even "hollow forms" can be done favorably with the right tool selection.

[Darrell Feltmate]

Interesting answers guys, thanks. By the way, the biggest piece I have
personlly seen on a lathe was a yellow birch burl that eventually became a
4 1/2' (that is foot not inch) bowl which was used as the pedestal for a
dining room table. The lathe was home made from 8" timbers and used an old
farm motor for drive. It worked well and as I recall, without vibration.

--

God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Hi Darrell,

I don't mean to argue from my position of ignorance, but are you sure
that weight for weight, and particularly swing for swing, a metal lathe
with the same 'credentials' as a woodturning lathe doesn't cost a whole
lot more? I love my Sheldon metal lathe, but it only swings 10 in. and
it cost a lot more than my 10 in. VL100.


The usual (not sure about brake drum and other special use machines)
metal lathe that could swing a 24 in. bowl would likely not fit into a
home shop as well as a wood lathe of equal quality and swing. I don't
think most metal lathes have outboard adaptability.


IMHO, a Canadian, American, Australian Belgium or British metal lathe
with the overall quality, swing and rpm range of a Oneway, Robust,
Vicmarc, Wivamac or VB36, ...and that great lathe sold by a first rate
fellow turner in St. Louis will cost thousands more. At least, I'd
presume so, since precision geared spindles, back gears, carriages,
compounds, power feeds, threading gears, etc, don't come cheap.


I don't know if stripped down metal lathes suitable for turning wood are
available, but I'd think a high quality metal lathe without its high
quality tooling is more helpless and useless than a similar quality wood
lathe without its accessories.

Talk about ruining a thread!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

[[email protected]]

Hi Darrell

You are right about being able to buy more weight and quality if you
go and get a metal lathe, right now Busy Bee has a shortbed 13X24 I
think for less than $2100.00 Can.
However there are some real problems for most people, unless they are
capable machinists and are willing to spend the time to make and/or
add the required parts, equipment.
Upside is you do get some real good heavy and solid headstock, bed and
tailstock, and everything lines up, just no comparison to a wood
turning lathe, and if capable, you then can make equipment and tools
yourself, at a fraction of the store price.
I use a metal lathe every day (more or less) to turn wood on, and I
would not trade for a wood lathe if that was the only lathe I could
have, but I would like a large Oneway as an extra lathe, I do have a
Delta mini lathe 10" swing, and take that one along for turning small
stuff, when I go visit my sons or to wood club events.
But as usually there are trade offs, unless changes made ( which one
can do) the top RPMs are much lower than on a wood lathe, mind you I
personally do not need 4000 RPM speeds, the swing is less than most
people like to have, 13" is not very big for a swing, and the lathes
are capable of swinging much larger.
So I build a outboard platform that lets me turn 32" and can be
expanded for larger if needed/wanted, I build a banjo that has the
regular excentric shaft for lock down, and I use the taper both
inboard and outboard in the headstock shaft to hold my chucks or face
plates, and there is no problem turning clock or counter clockwise,
the headstock spindle also has a large open center compared to a wood
lathe, 1 3/8" if I recall right, very handy at times.
However I do not have a tailstock on the outboard side, and sometimes
wish I did have one, I could build one, but so far have not done that.
It is sweet turning outboard, nothing to interfere with your position,
no bending or twisting or demand for the use of only this or that
tool, it is wide open and I just love it.
And after more than 45 years of turning ( there are a few years
missing in between here and there) I would not want it any other way,
turn wood , turn metal, spin metal, I'm having fun.

Want to know more ?? there is a photo album with a few pictures that
show some of the points I was trying to get across.
And you can ask if you would like to know more.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum25.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


On Mar 6, 10:17 am, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:
Just a question related to the topic of going big, but i did not want to
ruin that thread.
Some of the big metal lathes way a half ton or more and are stable enough to
turn a large chunch of steel. Why would you not get one of those for large
bowls? They look to be about half the price and the slow speed should be
good not bad for large turnings. they all seem to come with chucks and
threading capability and all that neat stuff. Besides, with a good clean up
you could turn steel too.
I am surely missing something here and am open to comment or critidism. I am
not a metal turner by any stretch.
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canadawww.aroundthewoods.com

[[email protected]]

Hi Charlie
Larger D swing need larger distance between center and ways ??, I
guess so, but it would not make any difference if wood or metal lathe,
right.
Leaning over the ways, might bother some times, but less so than
having broken tool rest hit your foot, from one of those swinging
headstock wonders, that are a struggle EVERY time trying to line the
headstock up again when moving the headstock back.
Having a outboard setup like the Oneway offers, would do away with the
leaning over, would it not ??, and why would one want to build a tool
rest 90 degrees to the lathe axes, I do know that when owners of other
lathe makes want a banjo and tool rest that stays put, they DO buy a
Oneway banjo and tool rest.
As for height adjustment, most people do not change height much
between morning and afternoon, When ordering a Oneway they will ask
the height you do want your lathe spindle to be, and build it for you,
then there is also a 4" adjustment on the lathes, seems like a lot
more flexibility than most other lathes offer, IMO.
Of course one could always use a pallet to stand on if one's to
short, ;-)))

http://www.oneway.on.ca/lathes/2436_...#largeoutboard

And Yes Metal lathes are a class al by themselves aren't they ???

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo





On Mar 6, 12:47 pm, charlieb wrote:
I think it might be a Swing thing. Large diameter bowls -
by that I mean 24 or more inches in diameter - require
a greater distance from between centers to the lathe's
ways. And you need to deduct some from that dimension
to the tool rest banjo. Machinist lathes - that you can
actually fit in an amateur/hobbiest "shop" just don't have
that sized swing.

The other issue is hollowing in from the end. If you've
spent any time at all leaning over the lathe doing
hollowing you soon learn that supporting your upper
body weight with your lower back almost guarantees
some Chiropractor an income enhancement, or some
time on the couch with either a heating pad or an ice
pack. Add leaning over farther to see inside the
piece and the problem gets worse - in a hurry. Long
lathe beds only add further to the leaning problem.

Now some lathe makers got around part of that Lean
Over Work problem by providing the option of turning
the drive end part 90 or 180 degrees - for "outboard
turning". That solution however, requires some way
to support the tool rest. Swing out arms attached
to the lathe's base has been one solution. Others
have come up with a stand alone stand to hold the
tool rest. Neither solution is as good as the one
Stubby came up with - the three ways positions options
PLUS the ability to rotate their answer to the normal
banjo to support the tool rest.

The Stubby significantly reduces the leaning over
problem - adjustable center height, short bed when
you need it, longer when you need that, and multiple
solid locations for supporting the tool rest.

While the OneWay addresses some of these "challenges"
it's center height is fixed and there's no way to mount
a solid tool rest support at 90s to the long axis.

Metal lathes just don't have the flexibility of this type
of special lathes.

charlie b

[[email protected]]

O Yes here's the link to the lathe, they do offer some more models,
and also wood lathes.

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/pictu...0&NTITEM=CT089

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

[Darrell Feltmate]

Thanks Leo
Nice stuff. I book marked the page but I will add it to my links if you do
not mind. It answers a lot of questions about using a metal lathe for wood.
Can you thread a box with that thing? I really have neither the money nor
the desire to change lathes but I like to ask questions.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi Darrell

You are right about being able to buy more weight and quality if you
go and get a metal lathe, right now Busy Bee has a shortbed 13X24 I
think for less than $2100.00 Can.
However there are some real problems for most people, unless they are
capable machinists and are willing to spend the time to make and/or
add the required parts, equipment.
Upside is you do get some real good heavy and solid headstock, bed and
tailstock, and everything lines up, just no comparison to a wood
turning lathe, and if capable, you then can make equipment and tools
yourself, at a fraction of the store price.
I use a metal lathe every day (more or less) to turn wood on, and I
would not trade for a wood lathe if that was the only lathe I could
have, but I would like a large Oneway as an extra lathe, I do have a
Delta mini lathe 10" swing, and take that one along for turning small
stuff, when I go visit my sons or to wood club events.
But as usually there are trade offs, unless changes made ( which one
can do) the top RPMs are much lower than on a wood lathe, mind you I
personally do not need 4000 RPM speeds, the swing is less than most
people like to have, 13" is not very big for a swing, and the lathes
are capable of swinging much larger.
So I build a outboard platform that lets me turn 32" and can be
expanded for larger if needed/wanted, I build a banjo that has the
regular excentric shaft for lock down, and I use the taper both
inboard and outboard in the headstock shaft to hold my chucks or face
plates, and there is no problem turning clock or counter clockwise,
the headstock spindle also has a large open center compared to a wood
lathe, 1 3/8" if I recall right, very handy at times.
However I do not have a tailstock on the outboard side, and sometimes
wish I did have one, I could build one, but so far have not done that.
It is sweet turning outboard, nothing to interfere with your position,
no bending or twisting or demand for the use of only this or that
tool, it is wide open and I just love it.
And after more than 45 years of turning ( there are a few years
missing in between here and there) I would not want it any other way,
turn wood , turn metal, spin metal, I'm having fun.

Want to know more ?? there is a photo album with a few pictures that
show some of the points I was trying to get across.
And you can ask if you would like to know more.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum25.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


On Mar 6, 10:17 am, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:
Just a question related to the topic of going big, but i did not want to
ruin that thread.
Some of the big metal lathes way a half ton or more and are stable enough
to
turn a large chunch of steel. Why would you not get one of those for
large
bowls? They look to be about half the price and the slow speed should be
good not bad for large turnings. they all seem to come with chucks and
threading capability and all that neat stuff. Besides, with a good clean
up
you could turn steel too.
I am surely missing something here and am open to comment or critidism. I
am
not a metal turner by any stretch.
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canadawww.aroundthewoods.com

[Arch]

Wow Leo, that's an awful lot of machinery for the money. As a metal
lathe & tooling can it approach the quality (by which I mean the iron,
the castings, the machining, the tolerances, the back up service etc.
etc, anyway near the way a Stubby does as a wood lathe, (or your own
metal lathe for that matter) or is one an apple and the other an orange?
Of course, some probably don't really care whether they eat an apple or
an orange.

I think you laid out the reasons very well why a metal lathe as well as
a home built lathe will, but not always be a compromise for most
turners. Thanks.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

[[email protected]]

Hi Arch
It is what it is, not a cadilac metal lathe, tolerances are good, the
castings are typical Taiwanese, rough and rather soft.
But compared to a wood lathe, you do get a lot for your money, good
tapered bearings in a oil bath, large strong head shaft, tailstock
slides on the prism ways and to stay aligned, the tailstock is also
much better fitting than the typical wood lathe and stays put when
locked down, etc.
I find it does service my need as both a wood turning lathe or a
engine lathe, and the price was right.
Is it as good a wood lathe as a Stubby or a Oneway ? Close IMO, and as
a metal turning lathe it wins hands down of course, as you say we're
comparing apples and oranges in this case.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


On 7 Mar, 09:30, (Arch) wrote:
Wow Leo, that's an awful lot of machinery for the money. As a metal
lathe & tooling can it approach the quality (by which I mean the iron,
the castings, the machining, the tolerances, the back up service etc.
etc, anyway near the way a Stubby does as a wood lathe, (or your own
metal lathe for that matter) or is one an apple and the other an orange?
Of course, some probably don't really care whether they eat an apple or
an orange.

I think you laid out the reasons very well why a metal lathe as well as
a home built lathe will, but not always be a compromise for most
turners. Thanks.

Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

[[email protected]]

Hi Darrell

Thanks, and yes you certainly can link to it, that's really why I put
it up in the first place, to answer some of the questions that are
raised, about the use of a metal lathe for turning wood.

Can it turn threads ??
It can turn a whole range of thread sizes, but you would have the same
problems with the wood having to be very dense to get a good surface,
especially if one was to use a scraper like tool.

One could build a bracket to hold a router on the tool carriage and
then use the thread cutting cutter as some other setups use, then
choose whatever tread one would like, and you could use less dense
wood and still get a decent surface on the wood, Bonnie Klein uses
that kind of setup I think.

What works really good is turning straight inside boxes with a flat
bottom, holding a tool the regular metal turning way, and than shape/
finish the outside in a freehand wood turning way.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

On 7 Mar, 06:51, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:
Thanks Leo
Nice stuff. I book marked the page but I will add it to my links if you do
not mind. It answers a lot of questions about using a metal lathe for wood.
Can you thread a box with that thing? I really have neither the money nor
the desire to change lathes but I like to ask questions.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canadawww.aroundthewoods.com

[Prometheus]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:17:47 GMT, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:

Just a question related to the topic of going big, but i did not want to
ruin that thread.
Some of the big metal lathes way a half ton or more and are stable enough to
turn a large chunch of steel. Why would you not get one of those for large
bowls? They look to be about half the price and the slow speed should be
good not bad for large turnings. they all seem to come with chucks and
threading capability and all that neat stuff. Besides, with a good clean up
you could turn steel too.
I am surely missing something here and am open to comment or critidism. I am
not a metal turner by any stretch.

I guess from my point of view, you'd be paying way too much for a wood
turning lathe if you go that route. A wood lathe is simple, and
fairly inexpensive- but an engine lathe has all sorts of thing you
don't need to turn wood, and runs as much a 5x the price.

OTOH, if you were to get one, you can do a lot of interesting and
precise work with it if you ever needed to turn metal. Don't know how
well they work turning wood, but I would imagine that as long as the
wood is turning and you have a tool rest on it, it would be fine.

[William Noble]

big metal lathes go cheaply - but mostly require 3 phase - you can add a
tool rest, they are usually oily and rely on oil to work right, so you will
have gummy sadust on everything - so there are two disadvantages - my metal
lathe is a small one, weighs about 1200 -1500 pounds and I would't turn wood
on it if I could avoid it, but the prior owner used it to make pool cues
"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:17:47 GMT, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:

Just a question related to the topic of going big, but i did not want to
ruin that thread.
Some of the big metal lathes way a half ton or more and are stable enough
to
turn a large chunch of steel. Why would you not get one of those for large
bowls? They look to be about half the price and the slow speed should be
good not bad for large turnings. they all seem to come with chucks and
threading capability and all that neat stuff. Besides, with a good clean
up
you could turn steel too.
I am surely missing something here and am open to comment or critidism. I
am
not a metal turner by any stretch.

I guess from my point of view, you'd be paying way too much for a wood
turning lathe if you go that route. A wood lathe is simple, and
fairly inexpensive- but an engine lathe has all sorts of thing you
don't need to turn wood, and runs as much a 5x the price.

OTOH, if you were to get one, you can do a lot of interesting and
precise work with it if you ever needed to turn metal. Don't know how
well they work turning wood, but I would imagine that as long as the
wood is turning and you have a tool rest on it, it would be fine.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com