[Prometheus]

Hello all,

Well, I finally got around to tooling up to do some metal spinning-
after a long delay and some hemming and hawing.

So far, the tools are turning out really nice- the tool post is
machined from 1.75" x 1" aluminum bar stock 11" long, with a pin hole
1" deep every inch, and 1/2" diameter removable pins made from
polished 1018 cold-rolled steel. I intentionally left about 1/64"
slop in the holes, so that the pins would still fit, even if there was
a little galling or rusting over time- no need for a machined fit on
something that is just a pivot point.

That was the easy part, because I could do it at work and conscript a
top-notch welder to attach it to the post for me- and it turned out
really pretty and shiny. I know the aluminum is weaker than steel,
but that's what there was to work with, and it's a lot beefier than
the commerically available ones at any rate.

The interesting bit came when looking for the turning tools- Sorby
sells a set for about $180- which is about $175 more than I had
available to spend on them. So, I did a little checking around
online, and decided to engage in a little Haephestian fun. Got the
duck-bill forged using a 3' length of 1/2" hot rolled steel, a propane
torch, and a ball-peen hammer. Heated the 1" at the end of the bar to
cherry red, hammered a few times, then put it back in the torch flame.
Took about 10 re-heatings to get it formed.

Turns out, it's a bit easier than anticipated- after about an hour of
goofing around, I had the hang of it, and got it to the right shape.
Cleaned it up, ground out the hammer marks with the belt sander, and
rounded the tip of the "bill". Heated the forged part to cherry red
with the torch again, and quenched it in a 3 gallon pail of water.
Quenching is kind of an interesting thing, if you haven't tried it- I
expected a hiss and gout of steam, but you can actually feel the steel
kind of shiver and re-arrange itself- even through leather gloves.

The spinning tools have to be really smooth, so I clamped the hardened
tool in my bench vise, and went after the tip with the back sides of
my sharpening stones, feeling it frequently with my fingertips to find
the rough spots. After it was smooth, I stuck a bolt through a felt
wheel, and mounted it in my drill chuck on the lathe. Polished it
with a little rouge, and it was done. Total time making the tool was
about 2 hours for the forging, grinding, hardening and polishing.

Turned out really nicely, actually- the hot rolled stock is still a
little rough on the "handle" of it, but the tip is a hard, smooth
surface that's shaped like a duck's bill (hence the name!) and is
shiny as a mirror. I plan on forging a sheep's nose on the other end
of the bar tomorrow, and give spinning a go.

Total cost so far- $4.21!

Figured I'd share it with you guys, as it's within the purvue of a
wood lathe, and it's an easier-than-expected way to make turning
tools. After I showed the wife, she agreed that I should set up a
little forge for future goofing around, and get an actual anvil (I
used the 1" square part of a little bench vise for what I did so far.)
I'd been putting it off for quite a while, as it seemed like something
that was too involved, but it's not too tough in reality.

Seeing how easy it actually was, and since it was kind of fun, I
figure I'll forge some more regular woodturning tools, as flat
hot-rolled steel can be got in short lengths from the hardware store
for a pretty reasonable price. I doubt I want to tackle forging a
full flute for something like a gouge, but I can see a flute that is a
couple inches long on the end of a bar being well within the range of
possibility.

Can't be any worse than mucking around with the chainsaw, anyhow!

[Leif Thorvaldson]

"Prometheus" wrote in message
news
Hello all,

Well, I finally got around to tooling up to do some metal spinning-
after a long delay and some hemming and hawing.

So far, the tools are turning out really nice- the tool post is
machined from 1.75" x 1" aluminum bar stock 11" long, with a pin hole
1" deep every inch, and 1/2" diameter removable pins made from
polished 1018 cold-rolled steel. I intentionally left about 1/64"
slop in the holes, so that the pins would still fit, even if there was
a little galling or rusting over time- no need for a machined fit on
something that is just a pivot point.

That was the easy part, because I could do it at work and conscript a
top-notch welder to attach it to the post for me- and it turned out
really pretty and shiny. I know the aluminum is weaker than steel,
but that's what there was to work with, and it's a lot beefier than
the commerically available ones at any rate.

The interesting bit came when looking for the turning tools- Sorby
sells a set for about $180- which is about $175 more than I had
available to spend on them. So, I did a little checking around
online, and decided to engage in a little Haephestion fun. Got the
duck-bill forged using a 3' length of 1/2" hot rolled steel, a propane
torch, and a ball-peen hammer. Heated the 1" at the end of the bar to
cherry red, hammered a few times, then put it back in the torch flame.
Took about 10 re-heatings to get it formed.

======Haephestian fun, eh? Sure you are on the right newsgroup?? I would
have thought it might be Promethean fun!*G*

Leif

[Prometheus]

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:40:17 -0800, "Leif Thorvaldson"
wrote:


======Haephestian fun, eh? Sure you are on the right newsgroup?? I would
have thought it might be Promethean fun!*G*

Nah... Promethean fun would be more on the order of building a boat or
having a bonfire. Hammering hot metal is Haephestus's thing. No need
to make those poor old Greek gods go get their union stewards!

But I figure it's the right newsgroup. Got my first spun bowl done
this evening, and it was far more woodturning than anything else
(making the mandrel). Not *too* tough, but there are definately more
than a few tricks I have yet to learn with it.

A few points of interest for anyone looking to goof around with it:

- Copper will cut nicely with a standard wood blade on a bandsaw when
making blanks. (A good use for my little benchtop one, I'd say)

- Skipping the annealing of the blanks is a bad idea- my first attempt
has a bit of a crack in the upper edge from not doing that. It's a
little goofy looking- smooth and shiny *except* for the one spot where
it looks like someone attacked with a pair of tin snips.

-Despite the advice in the spinning tutorials I found, I used my chuck
to hold the mandrel, and it worked fine (they suggest faceplate
mounting only, but everything I found on the subject was fairly old.)

- Ridges in the bowl will sand out easily, and sanding marks polish
out nicely with the buffer- (copper) is almost less sanding than wood,
though the sandpaper loads quickly.

- If you're not doing production work (and I'd imagine that'd be most
people fooling with it) soft wood works fine for a mandrel. I just
turned a bit of willow, waxed it, and went to work. Leaving the
tearout alone (as opposed to sanding it all away) didn't seem to
affect the finished metal at all.

Should be a nice addition to my turnings in the future- the big bonus
for me will be when I get good enough to incorporate the two to make
wooden turnings with metal turned over portions of them while they're
on the lathe (for bases, caps, etc.) Seems like a good solution for
covering faceplate screw holes or less than perfect chuck recesses- or
even just to put a contrasting shiny bit on a nice piece.

Now I've got to see how much work wants to let me raid the scrap rack
for suitable blank material. Sheet metal is -way- too expensive at
the hardware store!

[[email protected]]

There's a whole lot more to learn if you want to spin metal, I've done
some, have a look if you like, scroll down to almost the bottom for
copper spun ornament balls.

http://woodcentral.com/newforum/ornaments/

Also dish and candle cup in one of my albums,

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum28.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Prometheus wrote:
Hello all,

Well, I finally got around to tooling up to do some metal spinning-
after a long delay and some hemming and hawing.

So far, the tools are turning out really nice- the tool post is
machined from 1.75" x 1" aluminum bar stock 11" long, with a pin hole
1" deep every inch, and 1/2" diameter removable pins made from
polished 1018 cold-rolled steel. I intentionally left about 1/64"
slop in the holes, so that the pins would still fit, even if there was
a little galling or rusting over time- no need for a machined fit on
something that is just a pivot point.

That was the easy part, because I could do it at work and conscript a
top-notch welder to attach it to the post for me- and it turned out
really pretty and shiny. I know the aluminum is weaker than steel,
but that's what there was to work with, and it's a lot beefier than
the commerically available ones at any rate.

The interesting bit came when looking for the turning tools- Sorby
sells a set for about $180- which is about $175 more than I had
available to spend on them. So, I did a little checking around
online, and decided to engage in a little Haephestian fun. Got the
duck-bill forged using a 3' length of 1/2" hot rolled steel, a propane
torch, and a ball-peen hammer. Heated the 1" at the end of the bar to
cherry red, hammered a few times, then put it back in the torch flame.
Took about 10 re-heatings to get it formed.

Turns out, it's a bit easier than anticipated- after about an hour of
goofing around, I had the hang of it, and got it to the right shape.
Cleaned it up, ground out the hammer marks with the belt sander, and
rounded the tip of the "bill". Heated the forged part to cherry red
with the torch again, and quenched it in a 3 gallon pail of water.
Quenching is kind of an interesting thing, if you haven't tried it- I
expected a hiss and gout of steam, but you can actually feel the steel
kind of shiver and re-arrange itself- even through leather gloves.

The spinning tools have to be really smooth, so I clamped the hardened
tool in my bench vise, and went after the tip with the back sides of
my sharpening stones, feeling it frequently with my fingertips to find
the rough spots. After it was smooth, I stuck a bolt through a felt
wheel, and mounted it in my drill chuck on the lathe. Polished it
with a little rouge, and it was done. Total time making the tool was
about 2 hours for the forging, grinding, hardening and polishing.

Turned out really nicely, actually- the hot rolled stock is still a
little rough on the "handle" of it, but the tip is a hard, smooth
surface that's shaped like a duck's bill (hence the name!) and is
shiny as a mirror. I plan on forging a sheep's nose on the other end
of the bar tomorrow, and give spinning a go.

Total cost so far- $4.21!

Figured I'd share it with you guys, as it's within the purvue of a
wood lathe, and it's an easier-than-expected way to make turning
tools. After I showed the wife, she agreed that I should set up a
little forge for future goofing around, and get an actual anvil (I
used the 1" square part of a little bench vise for what I did so far.)
I'd been putting it off for quite a while, as it seemed like something
that was too involved, but it's not too tough in reality.

Seeing how easy it actually was, and since it was kind of fun, I
figure I'll forge some more regular woodturning tools, as flat
hot-rolled steel can be got in short lengths from the hardware store
for a pretty reasonable price. I doubt I want to tackle forging a
full flute for something like a gouge, but I can see a flute that is a
couple inches long on the end of a bar being well within the range of
possibility.

Can't be any worse than mucking around with the chainsaw, anyhow!

[Prometheus]

On 27 Nov 2006 21:27:29 -0800, "
wrote:

There's a whole lot more to learn if you want to spin metal, I've done
some, have a look if you like, scroll down to almost the bottom for
copper spun ornament balls.

Nice stuff, Leo- I think those might have been part of what got the
idea in my head many months ago in the first place.

http://woodcentral.com/newforum/ornaments/

Also dish and candle cup in one of my albums,

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum28.html

I'm seeing that there is indeed a *lot* more that I need to learn
about it- tried a few things after work that made that pretty clear.

Luckily, I have a lot of metal availible to practice on- but do you
mind if I pick your brain a little on the subject? It's kind of an
obscure subject, and tough to find good info on. Any help shortening
the learning curve would be hugely appreciated.

A few of the more obvious things I'm struggling with:

What are the best gauges of various metals to learn to spin with? I
have stainless steel, cold-rolled steel, aluminum, brass, and copper
available without making a financial investment, but am willing to buy
others if I can find them. Practically, 20ga. (.063") is the thinnest
stuff that is easy for me to get, but there is occasionally thinner
metal that I can get my mitts on. I did try some very thin brass, but
it wanted to slide out, and got chewed up very quickly on the mandrel.

What is a good lubricant to use on the metal and the tooling? I've
tried paste wax, but it doesn't seem to be up to the task.

Do all metals need to be annealed before spinning, or just certain
ones like copper?

Have you tried spinning perforated metals? If so, is it worth the
effort?

When using a duck bill profiled tool for roughing into shape, is it
better to use the "tip" or the flatter edge? I'm guessing the flatter
edge is the thing for finish smoothing, but it doesn't seem to push
the disks against the mandrel very well.

I'll get this all figured out eventually, but any guidance you might
have would be very welcome- including answers to questions I don't
know enough to ask yet, of course!

[Tom Nie]

Cool story and ideas. Thanks!

TomNie

[Charles Friedman]

Re spinning different metals:

There are some soft aluminum alloys that spin well and dont really work
harden. If I remember correctly the 1000 series and possibly the 3000
series will work well. .063 is a bit thick. Half that thickness or
something like 18 gauge (non ferrous) would be a lot easier.
When making spinning forms soft wood can work and you can always lock around
the form and then burn out the form to recover the spun part.
Pewter is a great metal to spin: no work hardening and it polishes easily.
Some of the stainless alloys can be spun, but only when heated red hot with
a torch while spinning. Not for the fainthearted!
Always anneal the copper before spinning.
The very light gauges (under .020) are sometimes more difficult to spin.
Spinning with a drag tool as you described is not how I learned to do this.
I used compound roller tools. Search for James Reiser's web site for a lot
of information. He also has a DVD he put together. I think that someone
else also made a DVD.
Good luck.

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea
Metal spinner in a former life

[[email protected]]

Here's some info
start with material that is easy to learn with, deadsoft aluminium, or
pewter, it does not get work hardened.
If you use copper or brass, soften it up before you start and keep re
annealing as you workharden it, also your tools should be hard steel
and super smooth, Murphy's soap jell works for lubrication, or else get
the industrial wax stick for it, I use the back of a hook to roll the
metal to the form and keep a back stick to keep the metal up straight,
SS is not really for hand forming, can be done with a torch while
spinning, but I never attempted that.
You do need high pressure to move the metal,(so thinner is better, to a
point) and not to high rpm speeds, like 1000 rpm or less.
Most banjos wont stay in place while forcing the metal, so C clamps can
be used to help it, your aluminium fulcrum pin holder is probably not
going to last very long, but you'll find out, I welded a half inch
thick bar on a post with holes for half inch hard metal fulcrum pins,
stood up for me so far.

Being a turner there should be lots of firewood to use, and I have used
a wood fire successfully for heating up metal, a 5 gallon metal can
with several 1" holes drilled around it couple of inches from the
bottom for air holes, bigger hole in the center for the metal bar to be
stuck through, copper or brass sheet can be just placed in the top,
you'll be surprised at how well this works.
I've got some links here, there are things to be learned from, also a
CD or DVD would be very helpful or one on one lessons, there are some
books also, I happen to have "Turn a Bowl" by Ernie Conover, and it has
several pages on metal spinning in it.
http://iweb.tntech.edu/cventura/metalspinning.htm
http://www.franjometal.com/
http://www.jamesriser.com/CD_Preview/Intro.html
http://www.metalspinningworkshop.com/
http://www.paulwileyspinning.com/
http://www.crucibleservice.com/esele...abletitle.html
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...ROD&ProdID=311

This will keep you busy for a while :-))

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


Prometheus wrote:
On 27 Nov 2006 21:27:29 -0800, "
wrote:

There's a whole lot more to learn if you want to spin metal, I've done
some, have a look if you like, scroll down to almost the bottom for
copper spun ornament balls.

Nice stuff, Leo- I think those might have been part of what got the
idea in my head many months ago in the first place.

http://woodcentral.com/newforum/ornaments/

Also dish and candle cup in one of my albums,

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum28.html

I'm seeing that there is indeed a *lot* more that I need to learn
about it- tried a few things after work that made that pretty clear.

Luckily, I have a lot of metal availible to practice on- but do you
mind if I pick your brain a little on the subject? It's kind of an
obscure subject, and tough to find good info on. Any help shortening
the learning curve would be hugely appreciated.

A few of the more obvious things I'm struggling with:

What are the best gauges of various metals to learn to spin with? I
have stainless steel, cold-rolled steel, aluminum, brass, and copper
available without making a financial investment, but am willing to buy
others if I can find them. Practically, 20ga. (.063") is the thinnest
stuff that is easy for me to get, but there is occasionally thinner
metal that I can get my mitts on. I did try some very thin brass, but
it wanted to slide out, and got chewed up very quickly on the mandrel.

What is a good lubricant to use on the metal and the tooling? I've
tried paste wax, but it doesn't seem to be up to the task.

Do all metals need to be annealed before spinning, or just certain
ones like copper?

Have you tried spinning perforated metals? If so, is it worth the
effort?

When using a duck bill profiled tool for roughing into shape, is it
better to use the "tip" or the flatter edge? I'm guessing the flatter
edge is the thing for finish smoothing, but it doesn't seem to push
the disks against the mandrel very well.

I'll get this all figured out eventually, but any guidance you might
have would be very welcome- including answers to questions I don't
know enough to ask yet, of course!

[Prometheus]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:24:15 GMT, "Charles Friedman"
wrote:

Re spinning different metals:

There are some soft aluminum alloys that spin well and dont really work
harden. If I remember correctly the 1000 series and possibly the 3000
series will work well. .063 is a bit thick. Half that thickness or
something like 18 gauge (non ferrous) would be a lot easier.
When making spinning forms soft wood can work and you can always lock around
the form and then burn out the form to recover the spun part.
Pewter is a great metal to spin: no work hardening and it polishes easily.
Some of the stainless alloys can be spun, but only when heated red hot with
a torch while spinning. Not for the fainthearted!
Always anneal the copper before spinning.
The very light gauges (under .020) are sometimes more difficult to spin.
Spinning with a drag tool as you described is not how I learned to do this.
I used compound roller tools. Search for James Reiser's web site for a lot
of information. He also has a DVD he put together. I think that someone
else also made a DVD.
Good luck.

Thanks Charles!

[Prometheus]

On 28 Nov 2006 20:58:00 -0800, "
wrote:

Here's some info
start with material that is easy to learn with, deadsoft aluminium, or
pewter, it does not get work hardened.
If you use copper or brass, soften it up before you start and keep re
annealing as you workharden it, also your tools should be hard steel
and super smooth, Murphy's soap jell works for lubrication, or else get
the industrial wax stick for it, I use the back of a hook to roll the
metal to the form and keep a back stick to keep the metal up straight,
SS is not really for hand forming, can be done with a torch while
spinning, but I never attempted that.
You do need high pressure to move the metal,(so thinner is better, to a
point) and not to high rpm speeds, like 1000 rpm or less.

Ah ha! I was cranking it up to top speed, after reading a few
tutorials- maybe that's why it hardens so quickly.

Most banjos wont stay in place while forcing the metal, so C clamps can
be used to help it, your aluminium fulcrum pin holder is probably not
going to last very long, but you'll find out, I welded a half inch
thick bar on a post with holes for half inch hard metal fulcrum pins,
stood up for me so far.

We'll see about the tool post- there's a lot of alumium there, so
hopefully it'll hold up for a while, anyhow. My banjo seems to do
okay provided I seat it against the tailstock, but I'll keep the
c-clamp idea in mind.

Being a turner there should be lots of firewood to use, and I have used
a wood fire successfully for heating up metal, a 5 gallon metal can
with several 1" holes drilled around it couple of inches from the
bottom for air holes, bigger hole in the center for the metal bar to be
stuck through, copper or brass sheet can be just placed in the top,
you'll be surprised at how well this works.

Sounds good- I've got some plans in the works to try out the Gingery
books for making machine tools, so I'll be making a furnace for
melting aluminum soon anyhow. Never hurts to have things doing double
duty.

I've got some links here, there are things to be learned from, also a
CD or DVD would be very helpful or one on one lessons, there are some
books also, I happen to have "Turn a Bowl" by Ernie Conover, and it has
several pages on metal spinning in it.
http://iweb.tntech.edu/cventura/metalspinning.htm
http://www.franjometal.com/
http://www.jamesriser.com/CD_Preview/Intro.html
http://www.metalspinningworkshop.com/
http://www.paulwileyspinning.com/
http://www.crucibleservice.com/esele...abletitle.html
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...ROD&ProdID=311

This will keep you busy for a while :-))

Good deal- thanks Leo!

[Prometheus]

(Or anyone else who can offer some insight, of course!)

Just a quick question, if you've got time and some info for me-

I've been continuing to practice spinning, but several attempts have
ended up making a wavy edge on the outside ring of the metal (where it
has not been spun yet, and is still standing up) The mandrel shape
I've been using is a "standard" bowl shape similar to a half sphere.

Depending on the material, they either catch the tool and rip up the
piece, or lay down and fold over one another when I try to spin them
out. Once they're folded, I haven't been able to spin them out.

I'm guessing that this has to do with the way the metal stretches, but
judging from the video clips I've seen on this, it's obviously
something that doesn't have to happen.

Any clues on what I might be doing to cause this? Pressing too hard?
Not hard enough? Not enough working back towards the base? Maybe too
much or too little material?

I've got a few things to turn out, but it's still kind of dumb luck at
this point- no big "aha" moments yet... I did ask my wife to get me a
set of videos on the subject for Christmas, but that's still a month
away, and I fully intend to keep playing with it in the meantime!

[[email protected]]

Don't know what you are using, or what you're doing, but as you force
the metal to the form you have to support the backside to keep it
upright, and keep straitening the metal by bringing both the forming
tool and the back stick out to the edge, if you don't do this the metal
will fold and you will have to start over with a new piece of metal,
but don,t keep going back and forth to much or you thin the metal to
much at the foot.
also while moving the metal to the form, support the backside to keep
the metal from bulging ,make sure you have enough lubrication, and like
with all these things, practice and practice some more.
It's not that hard when you know what your doing, but it isn't easy
;--)))

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Prometheus wrote:
(Or anyone else who can offer some insight, of course!)

Just a quick question, if you've got time and some info for me-

I've been continuing to practice spinning, but several attempts have
ended up making a wavy edge on the outside ring of the metal (where it
has not been spun yet, and is still standing up) The mandrel shape
I've been using is a "standard" bowl shape similar to a half sphere.

Depending on the material, they either catch the tool and rip up the
piece, or lay down and fold over one another when I try to spin them
out. Once they're folded, I haven't been able to spin them out.

I'm guessing that this has to do with the way the metal stretches, but
judging from the video clips I've seen on this, it's obviously
something that doesn't have to happen.

Any clues on what I might be doing to cause this? Pressing too hard?
Not hard enough? Not enough working back towards the base? Maybe too
much or too little material?

I've got a few things to turn out, but it's still kind of dumb luck at
this point- no big "aha" moments yet... I did ask my wife to get me a
set of videos on the subject for Christmas, but that's still a month
away, and I fully intend to keep playing with it in the meantime!

[Prometheus]

On 3 Dec 2006 01:03:12 -0800, "
wrote:

Don't know what you are using, or what you're doing, but as you force
the metal to the form you have to support the backside to keep it
upright, and keep straitening the metal by bringing both the forming
tool and the back stick out to the edge, if you don't do this the metal
will fold and you will have to start over with a new piece of metal,
but don,t keep going back and forth to much or you thin the metal to
much at the foot.

Maybe that's the problem- I'm not going all the way out to the edge,
just forming as I go. It's as good a thing as any to try at this
point, anyhow! Thanks for the idea.

also while moving the metal to the form, support the backside to keep
the metal from bulging ,make sure you have enough lubrication, and like
with all these things, practice and practice some more.
It's not that hard when you know what your doing, but it isn't easy
;--)))

Will do- I've been on this like a bulldog, and I'm going to keep after
it until I can do it right!