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#1
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
It looks like the Group has slowed down a bit so thought I would post my latest
test results of the Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood technique. There may be some who feel this is a farce, but in the past I've had excellent results with it. My latest test was on a piece of wet walnut tree root that was about 5 inches in diameter. Because of its size, I turned an endgrain vase out of it. The rough turned wall thickess was about 5/8". I soaked it in alcohol that we've used several times before for 24 hours. I removed it from the alcohol and let it dry off for a short while and then wrapped it in brown grocery sack on the outside and top rim, leaving the inside open and upright. I weighed it as soon as it was wrapped, here are the results: At time of wrapping 5-4-06 Weight was 450 grams The next morning 5-5-06 Weight was 400 grams 5-6-06 365 grams 5-7-06 320 grams 5-8-06 310 grams 5-9-06 265 grams 5-11-06 240 grams 5-13-06 200 grams 5-14-06 190 grams 5-15-06 190 grams After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. There were no cracks or checks. The piece has lost 58 percent of its original weight in ten days setting in my shop. It was out of round by less that 1/16 inch. The wood was very dry when turned. I have no previous experience with walnut tree root, but these results fit nicely with other tests that we've made. I've never known a soaking wet piece of turned wood to dry completely in 10 days without some sort of help. I hope this information will be of use to some of the people on this newsgroup. It will not help the non-believers who will not give it a try or who have claimed to try it and found it not to work. For the rest of you, I recommend you give it a try on your next wet turned piece. We used Methel Alcohol, so don't drink the stuff!! Fred Holder http://www.fholder.com -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#2
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
Fred,
After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. Your results are very similar to mine. I've done about thirty small bowls with the alcohol soaking method with excellent results. Except for two ash blanks that took over three weeks to reach equilibrium, all the others dried in two weeks or less. Most of these bowls have been out-of-round. Enough that I had to true the tenon before completing them. Most of the bowls have been either English Walnut or Cherry though there were a couple birch, maple and oak. Some people over analyze the process. To me it just plain works! Harry |
#3
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
"Harry Pye" wrote in message groups.com... Fred, After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. Your results are very similar to mine. I've done about thirty small bowls with the alcohol soaking method with excellent results. Except for two ash blanks that took over three weeks to reach equilibrium, all the others dried in two weeks or less. Most of these bowls have been out-of-round. Enough that I had to true the tenon before completing them. Most of the bowls have been either English Walnut or Cherry though there were a couple birch, maple and oak. Some people over analyze the process. To me it just plain works! Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray "Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet under the sink? |
#4
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
Well George, thank God that you weren't the judge when some of the great
discoveries of our time were being discussed, not on a newsgroup of course. It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so critical of a process that works very well. It has even worked well on madrone for my wife and I. She definitely doesn't wear and ionized braclet or use the dish detergent except to wash dishes. I don't care if you ever take advantage of the alcohol drying process (and hope you don't enjoy the benefits of it), but I hate to see you debunk it and maybe keep others from trying it to get good results with their wood drying. Fred Holder http://wwww.fholder.com In article , George says... "Harry Pye" wrote in message sgroups.com... Fred, After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. Your results are very similar to mine. I've done about thirty small bowls with the alcohol soaking method with excellent results. Except for two ash blanks that took over three weeks to reach equilibrium, all the others dried in two weeks or less. Most of these bowls have been out-of-round. Enough that I had to true the tenon before completing them. Most of the bowls have been either English Walnut or Cherry though there were a couple birch, maple and oak. Some people over analyze the process. To me it just plain works! Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray "Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet under the sink? -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#5
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
Aw Fred, c;mon. You know, it's just George's way of letting us know
he's still around. As evidenced by his posting techniques, about the only way he knows how to express himself is to crap on something. I have seen a lot of evidence that this procedure works, although no one seems to know why. I have emailed back and forth with different individuals that are like you and I, ones that do not care "why" but only use the method as a means to an end. Some swear by it, others have had different levels of success. You know the longtime friend of this NG, Leif, swears by the LDD method and it works well for him. Others have found that protcol successful, moderately successful, and not successful at all. I think it is the same for he alcohol method. I was glad you took the time, made the effort and then went a step farther and shared with all of us. I would be willing to bet that George has not tried the alcohol method, but even if he did, it is a shame that a grown man (at least I am assuming this... maybe not) replies to someone simply sharing information backed by his careful fact gathering by sarcastic, snotty opinion. It is often the response of the small mind to make fun of something they don't understand or are unfamiliar with. But at the very least, lack of understanding, unfamiliarity, or any other reason doesn't excuse that kind arrogant, sarcastic remark to someone that is simply trying to share. I know this is the kind of horsecrap that ran you off for a long time, as well as many others. All I can say Fred, is don't go away because of some of jerks that post here. It is a public forum, and like the members of the flat earth society (you cannot prove the earth is round to their satisfaction, nor can you prove we ever went to the moon) they have a right to their opinion. They are one dimensinal thinkers. If they haven't experienced "it" themselves in some way, it may not exist at all. George is "one of those". He posts very pleasant threads when he is trolling for compliments on something he has done, or if he agrees with you, or understands what you are saying. The rest of the time, it's... well... George. He is no different on the other NGs on which he participates. The people here are just nicer and more tolerant of his behavior. I live this quote, but don't know who said it. It may have been the "anti George": "Brave he be, who first tasteth the oyster" How would you have liked to try to convince your friends you could actually eat those things raw? Now to me, that's REAL uncharted territory. Thanks for the post. Robert |
#6
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
I am still experimenting with the various drying methods, and for the
way I do things I don't notice a whole lot of difference. At first, I would just turn to about 1/4 to 3/8 thick (wet wood), in sizes from 16 inches diameter to 3 inches diameter, and put the bowls on a shelf and let them dry. While I never weighed them, they would be mostly dry in 2 weeks or less: say about 98% of all movement had ceased, they were dry enough to sand easily (no loading of the sandpaper), and didn't feel cool to the touch. The same seems to hold true for the alcohol bath and LDD methods. I have never bagged a bowl blank. I have had about the same amount of cracking with all methods. Most of the cracks coming from cracks in the wood that I didn't cut out, some knots, and some crotch wood. I left pieces to soak for 24 hours to a month, and got the same results. I haven't noticed that any of the methods had any effect on movement, especially on the Madrone. I was at a demo at Dale Larsons place and the topic of the alcohol soaking came up, and there was a chorus responce about alcohol soaking hardens the wood. I had thought to myself that I had noticed how hard some of them were to sand before I heard that. The biggest difference that the LDD soak makes is in sanding. I don't leave my blanks thick, and then return them, I turn to finish thickness, and then sand. When sanding any of the LDD bowls, the dust comes off like big wet snow flakes, rather than fine powder. It does take about 2 plus weeks for the fragrences in the LDD to go away, but that is minor. The last batch that I soaked, I added the last 3 gallons of my left over alcohol to the LDD mix (10 plus gallons). The biggest difference that I noticed was that it thinned down the solution so that the mix dripped off a lot faster when removed from the tub. They sanded out nicely. Some time in the future, I will take a bunch of bowl blanks of Madrone (the most difficult wood I have found to dry), from the same tree, make them as identical as possible, and try all of the methods, and be a bit scientific about it all. My curiosity is demanding it of me just to see what and how much difference there really is. As far as how it works, I have talked to a number of people about this. Most recently at my last show. As near as I can tell, alcohol and glycerine (in the soap) act in similar ways to reduce the surface tension in the water which allows the water to move out easier. Or something like that. I don't really care about how it works, just the end results. To be continued...... robo hippy |
#7
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood - offline response
I apologise for the off-line response, but I don't post to the USENET
any more. The tenor has changed, and I'm not interested in flame wars. robo hippy wrote: snip At first, I would just turn to about 1/4 to 3/8 thick (wet wood), in sizes from 16 inches diameter to 3 inches diameter, and put the bowls on a shelf and let them dry. While I never weighed them, they would be mostly dry in 2 weeks or less: say about 98% of all movement had ceased, they were dry enough to sand easily (no loading of the sandpaper), and didn't feel cool to the touch. The same seems to hold true for the alcohol bath and LDD methods. I have never bagged a bowl blank. I have had about the same amount of cracking with all methods. Most of the cracks coming from cracks in the wood that I didn't cut out, some knots, and some crotch wood. I left pieces to soak for 24 hours to a month, and got the same results. I haven't noticed that any of the methods had any effect on movement, especially on the Madrone. snip The biggest difference that the LDD soak makes is in sanding. I don't leave my blanks thick, and then return them, I turn to finish thickness, and then sand. When sanding any of the LDD bowls, the dust comes off like big wet snow flakes, rather than fine powder. It does take about 2 plus weeks for the fragrences in the LDD to go away, but that is minor. The last batch that I soaked, I added the last 3 gallons of my left over alcohol to the LDD mix (10 plus gallons). The biggest difference that I noticed was that it thinned down the solution so that the mix dripped off a lot faster when removed from the tub. They sanded out nicely. snip While I wouldn't presume to question a turner as experienced as you are, I'm curious about one aspect of your LDD use. When I use it, I turn to final thickeness and then finish immediately. I don't allow the wood to dry before I finish it. Is that what you are doing, or are you drying it before finishing? I ask because I haven't had very many bowls crack, some warped, but cracks were very rare. Dave Leader -- Volunteer at Cluade Moore Colonial Farm (National Park) http://www.1771.org American Association of Woodturners http://www.woodturner.org Capital Area Woodturners http://www.capwoodturners.org/ PATINA http://www.patinatools.org M-WTCA - Mid-West Tool Collectors Assoc http://www.mwtca.org/ |
#8
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
In article ,
Fred Holder wrote: At time of wrapping 5-4-06 Weight was 450 grams The next morning 5-5-06 Weight was 400 grams 5-6-06 365 grams 5-7-06 320 grams 5-8-06 310 grams 5-9-06 265 grams 5-11-06 240 grams 5-13-06 200 grams 5-14-06 190 grams 5-15-06 190 grams After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. There were no cracks or checks. The piece has lost 58 percent of its original weight in ten days setting in my shop. It was out of round by less that 1/16 inch. The wood was very dry when turned. Hi Fred. After the last discussion on alcohol, I contacted Dave Smith to get permission to run his article in our chapter newsletter. Several members approached me telling me it really does work for them. I've not tried it yet, but plan to give it a go today if I remember to hit the local hardware for some alcohol. What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go myself, but I don't have a scale... -- Owen Lowe Northwest Woodturners Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild ___ Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness. |
#9
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood - offline response
Dave,
I haven't tried to sand and finish the bowl as soon as it comes out of the LDD solution. I would guess that one reason for doing this would be that by putting the finish on you would slow down the drying rate, and keeping the wood moist with finish. Both of these would aid in the slow controlled dry = less cracks method. One reason that I don't do this is that I turn a lot of bowls first, and then sand them all at once. I have a big sanding hood that I use that I can't turn inside of, so has to come off and on between turning and sanding. Another is that I think (haven't tried so it isn't proven to me) I would have to spend more time with the cleaning stick on the sand paper that I would if it is dry wood. Another is that I would worry about sealing the soap fragrance in the bowl, which I would not like. Some woods like blm (big leaf maple) which are starting to rot smell sour. They have to dry totally to get the sour smell out. Now I guess that I will have to try sanding and finishing a wet bowl some time. Don't worry about questioning me about anything, I do it to myself all of the time, and am always experimenting. After all, that is how we all learn. robo hippy |
#10
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
George,
Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray "Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet under the sink? My mother taught me that if I couldn't say anything nice, not to say anything at all. Also there is an old saying, "It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" You may want to think about these things. |
#11
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood1 (dry & long)
Hi Fred, Thanks for sharing your success with us. I don't know or care
how much of woodturning is art and how much is craft, but for me it's sure not science and I don't care. Well actually I do care a little, I'm glad it's not science because whatever facet of the endeavor I am involved in at the time, I don't want to burden my efforts and fun with too much deductive or inductive reasoning or data gathering. I think it's the same for most of us whether we turn as a business, a hobby or more often both. When a drying method works to the satisfaction of a woodturner I think there is merit in it. Whether the satisfaction is due to scientific proof, placebo effect, herd instinct, appeal to authority or a visitation from the Almighty the method is valid for the believer so why should he care what disbelievers think. Although I may not believe, I know I can't disprove a positive with a negative, so I'm always glad to hear about someone's success. Several methods for drying wood are satisfactory for somebody, but not for everybody. Usually when several techniques are in use, there is no one best technique. Boiling, LDD, alcohol, waxing, thinning & bagging all work for many of us and I have no trouble in believing in the merits of each. The option is mine, but I seldom choose to use any one of them, not because I 'know' it won't work, but simply because it is usually too much trouble. I rely on the kindness of mother nature. She will always take back some of her timber, but then I will always have wood to burn. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#12
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
Fred, here is what the FPL says, thought it would add to the discussion:
Solvent Seasoning The solvent seasoning process involves subjecting the wood to a spray or continuous immersion in either hot acetone or a similar solvent miscible with water for a number of hours until most of the water is extracted from the wood. The solvent is removed by steaming or with a vacuum. Additional water is removed at the same time. Although solvent seasoning has not been applied to eastern U. S. hardwoods, extensive research has been done in California on using this method to dry tanoak sapwood. For 4/4 lumber, drying time is as short as 30 h. A few pieces of lumber have suffered streaks of collapse, probably because of the presence of heartwood or bacterial infection. Dan |
#13
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
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#14
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
"Fred Holder" wrote in message ... Well George, thank God that you weren't the judge when some of the great discoveries of our time were being discussed, not on a newsgroup of course. It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so critical of a process that works very well. It has even worked well on madrone for my wife and I. She definitely doesn't wear and ionized braclet or use the dish detergent except to wash dishes. I don't care if you ever take advantage of the alcohol drying process (and hope you don't enjoy the benefits of it), but I hate to see you debunk it and maybe keep others from trying it to get good results with their wood drying. Well, I have to say the scientific method employed seems a bit dubious, Fred. I was, however able to duplicate your results yesterday. Took a plate of wet dirt - it's been raining, and carefully monitored and recorded the data so I could look like _I_ knew something too. 0800 145 grams 1000 138 grams 1200 124 grams 1400 116 grams 1600 114 grams Stable thereafter. So, based on your experimental results and mine, I'll have to concede that if you put something wet where air can get to it, it'll lose weight, and it seems to be from loss of moisture. Ran a parallel experiment to document whether or not this was the case. Put the dogs' dish on the counter out of reach and measured an 18mm depth of water at 0800 , and 17mm at 1800 when the dirt was stable. Couldn't have lost anything but water, so I consider that it might have been the case with the dirt. Since I formed the wet dirt on to the bottom of a paper plate, I have to say that, subjectively at least, there seemed to be little distortion during the process. |
#15
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
wrote in message oups.com... Aw Fred, c;mon. You know, it's just George's way of letting us know he's still around. As evidenced by his posting techniques, about the only way he knows how to express himself is to crap on something. I see, you like "me too" posts. See the one I just sent. |
#16
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
"Owen Lowe" wrote in message news What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go myself, but I don't have a scale... As I have said before, I have done exactly that, with successive cubes from 1x1 cuts, to make distortion measurement easy and valid. The answer is the one I keep giving. Not only is there no scientific validity to the assertions made by proponents - the speculative mechanisms violate known scientific laws - it makes no difference whether the piece is soaked or not. I keep suggesting that Fred take up the challenge and do it for himself, and instead we see what he posted yesterday, a documentation of evaporation. Note that the piece is protected from rapid loss by control of relative humidity, a method which has been used to control loss from drying wood for as long as man has cut it, and you find the real answer. Just as the LDD types who turn thin and experience little failure. If you turn thin, you won't, unless you throw the thing out into the desert, or an air-conditioned home, which is about the same. |
#17
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
"Harry Pye" wrote in message groups.com... George, Wonderful testimonials. Are you sure the results aren't due to the Q-Ray "Ionized" bracelet you're wearing, or the dish detergent in the cabinet under the sink? My mother taught me that if I couldn't say anything nice, not to say anything at all. Also there is an old saying, "It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" You may want to think about these things. I was answering one. |
#18
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
GEORGE HAS SPOKEN!
no need to carry on this thread or method of drying Tony Manella ndd1"at"ptd.net (remove "at") "George" George@least wrote in message ... "Owen Lowe" wrote in message news What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go myself, but I don't have a scale... As I have said before, I have done exactly that, with successive cubes from 1x1 cuts, to make distortion measurement easy and valid. The answer is the one I keep giving. Not only is there no scientific validity to the assertions made by proponents - the speculative mechanisms violate known scientific laws - it makes no difference whether the piece is soaked or not. I keep suggesting that Fred take up the challenge and do it for himself, and instead we see what he posted yesterday, a documentation of evaporation. Note that the piece is protected from rapid loss by control of relative humidity, a method which has been used to control loss from drying wood for as long as man has cut it, and you find the real answer. Just as the LDD types who turn thin and experience little failure. If you turn thin, you won't, unless you throw the thing out into the desert, or an air-conditioned home, which is about the same. |
#19
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
I agree. I'm sorry that I posted the information to arouse the God of Drying,
but I hope my mis-information may still help some poor uninformed soul who isn't biased by science. Fred Holder http://www.fholder.com In article , atsymbol says... GEORGE HAS SPOKEN! no need to carry on this thread or method of drying Tony Manella ndd1"at"ptd.net (remove "at") "George" George@least wrote in message ... "Owen Lowe" wrote in message news What would be most interesting to me concerning the drying results above would be a side-by-side comparison of two similarly sized and shaped forms from the same section of tree. Treat both the same with the taping and bagging, but treat only one with the alcohol. I'd give it a go myself, but I don't have a scale... As I have said before, I have done exactly that, with successive cubes from 1x1 cuts, to make distortion measurement easy and valid. The answer is the one I keep giving. Not only is there no scientific validity to the assertions made by proponents - the speculative mechanisms violate known scientific laws - it makes no difference whether the piece is soaked or not. I keep suggesting that Fred take up the challenge and do it for himself, and instead we see what he posted yesterday, a documentation of evaporation. Note that the piece is protected from rapid loss by control of relative humidity, a method which has been used to control loss from drying wood for as long as man has cut it, and you find the real answer. Just as the LDD types who turn thin and experience little failure. If you turn thin, you won't, unless you throw the thing out into the desert, or an air-conditioned home, which is about the same. -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#20
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek) Now Fred, you do realize that true 'scientfic method' would involve using 1" cubes for the test as opposed to something that will actually be turned or has been turned? The size makes it so much easier to measure distortion and actual weight loss or gain. Besides, as so many of us use 1" cubes in our work, the results will be applicable to a much wider range of possibilities. What good is possibly gained by using an actual turned object? Further, a true 'scientfic method' would involve taking measurements of the surrounding environment (tempertarure, change in temperature, rate of change in tempertature, relative humidity (as well as any changes thay may occur), air flow, etc...) The measurements could then be input into a stats package (SAS, Statistica, Stata, SPSS, S-Plus) and regressions run to determine the coefficients (not paramters here as we are dealing only with samples and not populations.) With the time data (discrete measurements over equally spaced periods) included (rate of change in temp, humidity, air flow of environment) we are now blessed with the possibility of using time series procedures whereby we can determine if our model is more of an MA (Moving Average) or an AR (Auto Regressive) or, perhaps, an ARIMA (AutoRegrssive Integrated Moving Average). We may of course wish to subject our (not too patient by now readers) to ARCH, CATS, and GARCH modeling procedures. But we will leave such discussions for a more opportune time & place. If we wish to include the actual species of wood in our experiment, we can then run ANOVA (Analysis of Variance) or MANOVA (Multiple Analysis of Variance) models and check for any statistically significant differences either within or between groups which in turn will help us in determining which species of wood, if any, is more susceptible to our alcohol-based drying method. As with a true 'scientific method' we would want to include measurements at various times so as to enable the employment of, at a minumum tw-way AMOVA or MANOVA modeling techniques. Of course with the inclusion of categorical data (wood species) and ANOVA modeling, the results will not be quite as robust as the regression analysis. I am sure there are other 'scientific methods' that can be gainfully employed with the end result of sucking all of the joy, happiness, sense of accomplishment, and just plain fun out of woodturning, but being just a simple statistician I will leave them to others to outline. Such sucking seems to be the sine qua non of some on this group. (Tongue removed from cheek) Thanks for the info. It works for you. If it works for others so much the better. "Fred Holder" wrote in message ... It looks like the Group has slowed down a bit so thought I would post my latest test results of the Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood technique. There may be some who feel this is a farce, but in the past I've had excellent results with it. My latest test was on a piece of wet walnut tree root that was about 5 inches in diameter. Because of its size, I turned an endgrain vase out of it. The rough turned wall thickess was about 5/8". I soaked it in alcohol that we've used several times before for 24 hours. I removed it from the alcohol and let it dry off for a short while and then wrapped it in brown grocery sack on the outside and top rim, leaving the inside open and upright. I weighed it as soon as it was wrapped, here are the results: At time of wrapping 5-4-06 Weight was 450 grams The next morning 5-5-06 Weight was 400 grams 5-6-06 365 grams 5-7-06 320 grams 5-8-06 310 grams 5-9-06 265 grams 5-11-06 240 grams 5-13-06 200 grams 5-14-06 190 grams 5-15-06 190 grams After weighing today, I final turned it. The foot was still round so that I could use the chuck tenon originally used to turn the piece. There were no cracks or checks. The piece has lost 58 percent of its original weight in ten days setting in my shop. It was out of round by less that 1/16 inch. The wood was very dry when turned. I have no previous experience with walnut tree root, but these results fit nicely with other tests that we've made. I've never known a soaking wet piece of turned wood to dry completely in 10 days without some sort of help. I hope this information will be of use to some of the people on this newsgroup. It will not help the non-believers who will not give it a try or who have claimed to try it and found it not to work. For the rest of you, I recommend you give it a try on your next wet turned piece. We used Methel Alcohol, so don't drink the stuff!! Fred Holder http://www.fholder.com -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#21
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
"Kevin" wrote:
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek) You forgot the laminar flow analysis. |
#22
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
With all of the George bashing that has been going on, did anyone
notice that in my post, that with all of the experimenting that I have done, that I haven't noticed any real difference in the drying methods? I am not saying that it, or any of the other methods don't word, I am saying that I can't tell any real difference. Some day I will have to do a more scientific testing. robo hippy |
#23
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
I just started a new test with the walnut root, except I cut the root in half
and turned two small bowls with 1/2" wall thicknesses. I soaked one in alcohol for two hours and the other one I simply wrapped the outside with paper. Both are wrapped in paper with the inside of the bowl open to the air. The wood was extremely wet. I'll weigh them each day until they quit losing weight and then will report back with my findings. Their initial weight, weighed at the same time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl. Incidentally, I noticed that you said you didn't notice any difference in drying with any of the various methods and that is why I decided to make a comparison test. I personally believe that the wood soaked in alcohol dries more quickly than wood that has not been soaked, maybe my test will show that I'm wrong or hopefully it will show that myself and a lot of other people are right about the alcohol soak. In any case, I'll report my findings in a week or two. You'll note that I'm using bowls for my test and not 1" cubes. Fred Holder http://www.fholder.com In article .com, robo hippy says... With all of the George bashing that has been going on, did anyone notice that in my post, that with all of the experimenting that I have done, that I haven't noticed any real difference in the drying methods? I am not saying that it, or any of the other methods don't word, I am saying that I can't tell any real difference. Some day I will have to do a more scientific testing. robo hippy -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#24
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
Might have to start another thread for that one Fred, I should be
turning next week, and will see if I can do the same thing with the LDD. robo hippy |
#25
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
I just started a new test with the walnut root, except I cut the root in half
and turned two small bowls with 1/2" wall thicknesses. I soaked one in alcohol for two hours and the other one I simply wrapped the outside with paper. Both are wrapped in paper with the inside of the bowl open to the air. The wood was extremely wet. I'll weigh them each day until they quit losing weight and then will report back with my findings. Their initial weight, weighed at the same time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl. Incidentally, I noticed that you said you didn't notice any difference in drying with any of the various methods and that is why I decided to make a comparison test. I personally believe that the wood soaked in alcohol dries more quickly than wood that has not been soaked, maybe my test will show that I'm wrong or hopefully it will show that myself and a lot of other people are right about the alcohol soak. In any case, I'll report my findings in a week or two. You'll note that I'm using bowls for my test and not 1" cubes. Fred, The folks at Forest Product Labs expect you to find a difference. At least that's what I got form the excerpt I posted, that solvent drying is a valid procedure. Dan |
#26
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
A 14 hour period is not much of a test, but between 5:00 pm yesterday and 7:00
am this morning the alcohol soaked bowl lost 25 grams and the unsoaked bowl lost 10 grams. This is the first time that I've checked two identical pieces (i.e., same wood) at the same time. Fred Holder http://www.fholder.com In article , Dan Bollinger says... I just started a new test with the walnut root, except I cut the root in half and turned two small bowls with 1/2" wall thicknesses. I soaked one in alcohol for two hours and the other one I simply wrapped the outside with paper. Both are wrapped in paper with the inside of the bowl open to the air. The wood was extremely wet. I'll weigh them each day until they quit losing weight and then will report back with my findings. Their initial weight, weighed at the same time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl. Incidentally, I noticed that you said you didn't notice any difference in drying with any of the various methods and that is why I decided to make a comparison test. I personally believe that the wood soaked in alcohol dries more quickly than wood that has not been soaked, maybe my test will show that I'm wrong or hopefully it will show that myself and a lot of other people are right about the alcohol soak. In any case, I'll report my findings in a week or two. You'll note that I'm using bowls for my test and not 1" cubes. Fred, The folks at Forest Product Labs expect you to find a difference. At least that's what I got form the excerpt I posted, that solvent drying is a valid procedure. Dan -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#27
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
"robo hippy" wrote in message oups.com... With all of the George bashing that has been going on, did anyone notice that in my post, that with all of the experimenting that I have done, that I haven't noticed any real difference in the drying methods? I am not saying that it, or any of the other methods don't word, I am saying that I can't tell any real difference. Some day I will have to do a more scientific testing. Yes indeed. As you might have noticed elsewhere, people who are not intimidated by the alcohol "tailors" into holding their tongue in the presence of the emperor are having similar problems. You must use good procedure for good results, none of which has anything to do with ethanol. My spouse, bless her soul, is fond of answering the question of "how's George?" with another question. "Compared to what?" So, here's a comparison to help answer the question as to whether there's anything remarkable in the decidedly skimpy "data" provided as conclusive evidence at the beginning of this thread. My neighbor felled a cherry tree on the weekend of the eighth of April of this year. It had not yet come into bud, so it was certainly low in unbound moisture. We hauled it to my place the following Thursday, April 13, and I began turning from it that weekend. Yesterday, after posting my confirmation of evaporation data, and before the 911 difficulties began an afternoon and evening of festivities, I went over to the shelf where a half-dozen early pieces made of that wood were stored. Pieces were roughed between 1"and 1 1/8" thick to allow for a bit of design change later as desired, placed on the table in a shop with 65% day, much lower during the heated night relative humidity until no dark spots from centrifugally expressed moisture were visible, then stored under the drill press near the floor. Locating closer to the floor gives an additional 10% RH, on average, bit more when heated air is dumped from above. I'm in no rush to dry them. They were moved to their present location 3 feet off the floor and out of the shop so the Son-in-Law and I could make all the %$#@&!! mortises for slats in the king-size mission bed my daughter wants on the 5th of May, where relative humidities are in the high 60s or even higher still (75-80) the last ten rainy days. How have they fared? Average of 16% at the moment, measured at the worst place, the bottoms they're resting on. This compared to the best case EMC of 14.3 for 75% and 65 degrees - the current averages. Had they been thinner, of course, they'd be as dry as they can get in this humidity, since doubling the thickness triples the dry time. They'll be final turned at 9-10%, for 50% RH/70 degrees when the dehumidifier comes on line if I need their variety and size for late summer shows, or in the fall. As to distortion, it's safe to say that this is as poorly understood as chemistry among some. Anyone who studies wood knows that distortion is related to the interval, orientation and curvature of the annual rings, and the relative density of the early and late wood. This tree grew pretty evenly, with an average of more than an eighth of an inch between rings, and the pieces were cut on average an inch from the center, making the shortest radius ring about 3/4 to 1". Anticipated diameter loss in a cherry bowl at 10% EMC , 12-15" in diameter and this ring interval/orientation seems to range from 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch exclusive of rim drop. These fit in nicely, with the worst and largest at nearly 3/8. Liquid solvent dehydration processes, as I have referenced, are performed by dilution, the same way at least Arch can remember dehydrating samples in Histology lab. The dilute solution is removed and freshened after each soak in successive operations until the desired concentration is obtained. The dehydrated material must then be dried, of course! The magic of alcohol seems to be that it, as the bush on Sinai, burns yet is not consumed. Chemical reactions deplete the reagent(s), replacement dilutes the solvent, which is why it is removed and replaced with fresh to get to the desired concentration. See any of that in the alcohol process? Must be obeying some law other than the known laws of chemistry to work. "But - but - but, doesn't the alcohol, with its higher vapor pressure (lower boiling point) evaporate faster than water?" Sure, but it doesn't dry the piece any faster unless you've done the dilutions. You can't have it both ways and say that the alcohol speeds the evaporation of water in a short-soak piece. If you distill alcohol from aqueous solution to get to your 95% azeotrope by using Raoult's law, you can't simply repeal it for the evaporation stage to make your theory work. Which it doesn't. Keep an eye on the relative humidity. You can do as I and leave it open for the air to dilute the water, or protect the wood from too great a surface/interior gradient by bagging, wrapping, coating, or containing. They're all doing the same thing. Which is why they all work, and have since records have been kept and before. It's also why the alcohol "works" - because the water molecules are continually washed away by the surrounding air. It's the dilution you didn't do. On the subject of weight. Was roughing a piece from near the end of a year-old maple log and noticed how light it felt compared to one I had roughed 40 inches into the same log two days prior, of similar thickness and shape. Piece from just inside the end checks weighed 2155 grams, while the other, which was just barely losing the shadow of unbound surface moisture tilted the scale by weighing more than 3 kilos. The real fun was in the difference between the wet and dry ends of the piece I turned. If I had whipped the speed up on the lathe, that sucker would have wobbled and flown. More than one way to get a piece out of balance. |
#28
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
Fred,
A 14 hour period is not much of a test, but between 5:00 pm yesterday and 7:00 am this morning the alcohol soaked bowl lost 25 grams and the unsoaked bowl lost 10 grams. This is the first time that I've checked two identical pieces (i.e., same wood) at the same time. I have noted this in every bowl I've dried using the alcohol method. I believe it is due to much of the alcohol evaporating. I chart the drying progress of each bowl done this way. In addition, I weigh the bowl before immersing it in alcohol. Try weighing the bowls every day at roughly the same time. I usually consider the bowl dry enough when I get the same reading on three consecutive days. (Using a postal scale that measures to 0.1 ounce.) Please keep us posted on the progress. |
#29
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
My spouse, bless her soul, is fond of answering the question of "how's
George?" with another question. "Compared to what?" Next time, correct her with "Compared to whom?" |
#30
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
Fred Holder wrote:
Their initial weight, weighed at the same time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl. Was that before or after the alcohol soak? What might be interesting to note is the weight of the bowl before and after the soak, and the weight of the tub of alcohol before and after. Or a chemical analysis of the alcohol to see how much water it gains during the soak. -- Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners |
#31
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
The weight was after the alcohol soak. I never thought to weigh it before.
However, before the paper and tape would not have been installed so the weight would have been different anyway. I'm not running a scientific laboratory so did not bother with weighing the alcohol before and after. I was interested in a comparison of a soaked bowl to an unsoaked bowl with both treated the same otherwise. Actually, I don't even need to prove this to myself. I know that it works, reguardless of whether George or anyone else says that it can't work. I'm doing the test for the people who might wish to use the process, not to prove anything to myself. Fred Holder http://www.fholder.com In article , Derek Andrews says... Fred Holder wrote: Their initial weight, weighed at the same time, was 215 grams for the unsoaked bowl and 225 grams for the soaked bowl. Was that before or after the alcohol soak? What might be interesting to note is the weight of the bowl before and after the soak, and the weight of the tub of alcohol before and after. Or a chemical analysis of the alcohol to see how much water it gains during the soak. -- Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#32
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Alcohol Drying of Wet Wood
And, Fred, the effort and sharing is appreciated.
When dealing with George's data you might try the parallel experiment that Arch has just documented . TomNie I'm doing the test for the people who might wish to use the process, not to prove anything to myself. |
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