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mike ring March 25th 05 12:36 PM

Cement shelf life
 
I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.

Just for interest, if it does deteriorate, could anyone explain the
mechanism - it would ease the pain of shelling out for a new bag!

Can anyone advise, please - I have tried googling, but the answers cover
such a wide range I'm not much wiser, and John Scmitt's FAQs don't seem to
answer this one.

mike

[email protected] March 25th 05 08:00 PM

mike ring wrote:
I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed

mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short

shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.

Just for interest, if it does deteriorate, could anyone explain the
mechanism - it would ease the pain of shelling out for a new bag!

Can anyone advise, please - I have tried googling, but the answers

cover
such a wide range I'm not much wiser, and John Scmitt's FAQs don't

seem to
answer this one.

mike


should be ok. Normally it sets into a rock when its had it.

NT


Mike March 25th 05 08:43 PM


"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...
I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.

Just for interest, if it does deteriorate, could anyone explain the
mechanism - it would ease the pain of shelling out for a new bag!


It absorbs moisture from the air and forms hard lumps. If it hasn't done
this I still wouldn't recommend building a house with it but for a fence
post go ahead. The worst it can do is refuse to set.



mike ring March 25th 05 08:46 PM

wrote in news:1111777247.841760.134400
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed

mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short

shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


should be ok. Normally it sets into a rock when its had it.

NT

That's what I thought, but considering the age I tried fixing a bit of
pointing in my paving, and it doesn't seem to be going off.

I've checked the bag, and can't find a date on it, but 6 months is bandied
about as a life.

But if *that's* so, how can I be sure I'm buying fresh if there's no date?

And how long *should* it take to set hard - ish?

I can't bear to have it go wrong in front of the guy next door!

TIA

mike

keith_765 March 25th 05 08:55 PM


"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...
wrote in news:1111777247.841760.134400
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed

mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short

shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


should be ok. Normally it sets into a rock when its had it.

NT

That's what I thought, but considering the age I tried fixing a bit of
pointing in my paving, and it doesn't seem to be going off.

I've checked the bag, and can't find a date on it, but 6 months is bandied
about as a life.

But if *that's* so, how can I be sure I'm buying fresh if there's no date?


If there isnt a date on the bag, you cant tell how old it is. When it
arrives on site and fresh, its hot, now dont laugh, because I can asure you
its that hot even in the bag you cant touch it for much more than 5
seconds.

When concrete is poured on site. its recond to give it a day for every 1" or
25mm. to cure before stripping the shuttering off.

And how long *should* it take to set hard - ish?

I can't bear to have it go wrong in front of the guy next door!

TIA

mike




Lobster March 25th 05 09:27 PM

mike ring wrote:
I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


Aren't you thinking of plaster?

David

keith_765 March 25th 05 10:34 PM


"Lobster" wrote in message
...
mike ring wrote:
I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


Aren't you thinking of plaster?

David

I dont think so. Plaster when its old sets as soon as youve mixed it and
steams



nthng2snet March 25th 05 11:21 PM

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:34:16 GMT, "keith_765"
wrote:


"Lobster" wrote in message
...
mike ring wrote:
I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


Aren't you thinking of plaster?

David

I dont think so. Plaster when its old sets as soon as youve mixed it and
steams




I added some mortar plasticiser liquid, which I had lying around, to
some old cement in a mix which kept it alive a bit longer. The bag was
about 6months old and had been left open.


mike ring March 25th 05 11:59 PM

"Mike" wrote in :

Just for interest, if it does deteriorate, could anyone explain the
mechanism - it would ease the pain of shelling out for a new bag!


It absorbs moisture from the air and forms hard lumps. If it hasn't done
this I still wouldn't recommend building a house with it but for a fence
post go ahead. The worst it can do is refuse to set.

That's the problem - it does seem to refuse to set, but I wanted to find
out how long I need to wait.

It's been 24hrs and my test bit is still toffeeish, it wouldn't hold up a
post.

I guess that means it's knackered, but with an undated bag, and it looking
perfectly good, it's a bit hard for a muppet like me to tell.

mike

mike ring March 26th 05 12:04 AM

Lobster wrote in
:


It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short
shelf life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


Aren't you thinking of plaster?

No, Supamix dry mortar mix.

The bag says store in a dry place, which I have, but no mention at all of a
shelf life or use by date.

mike

Mike March 26th 05 12:16 AM


"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...
"Mike" wrote in :

Just for interest, if it does deteriorate, could anyone explain the
mechanism - it would ease the pain of shelling out for a new bag!


It absorbs moisture from the air and forms hard lumps. If it hasn't

done
this I still wouldn't recommend building a house with it but for a fence
post go ahead. The worst it can do is refuse to set.

That's the problem - it does seem to refuse to set, but I wanted to find
out how long I need to wait.

It's been 24hrs and my test bit is still toffeeish, it wouldn't hold up a
post.

I guess that means it's knackered, but with an undated bag, and it looking
perfectly good, it's a bit hard for a muppet like me to tell.


It's dead :-)



andrewpreece March 26th 05 01:01 AM

The only way I've had cement go off on me was going hard or lumpy - whatever
wasn't rock
solid would always set. The only problem I've really had was with some
Wickes exterior tile
which is quick setting normally but wouldn't set after 6 months in the open
bag. I wonder
if what you have isn't plain old sand and cement but something more like my
tile cement?

I'd give your test piece a bit more than 24 hours to go off though - give it
another couple of
days before you declare the stuff useless.

Andy.



raden March 26th 05 01:09 AM

In message , mike ring
writes
wrote in news:1111777247.841760.134400
:

I want to fix (bodge) a fence post aand I've got some ready mixed

mortar
rhat must be a year or two old.

It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short

shelf
life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


should be ok. Normally it sets into a rock when its had it.

NT

That's what I thought, but considering the age I tried fixing a bit of
pointing in my paving, and it doesn't seem to be going off.

I've checked the bag, and can't find a date on it, but 6 months is bandied
about as a life.

But if *that's* so, how can I be sure I'm buying fresh if there's no date?

And how long *should* it take to set hard - ish?

Show it some porn - hard in no time

--
geoff

Lobster March 26th 05 11:10 AM

mike ring wrote:
Lobster wrote in
:


It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short
shelf life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.


Aren't you thinking of plaster?


No, Supamix dry mortar mix.

The bag says store in a dry place, which I have, but no mention at all of a
shelf life or use by date.


What I meant was, it's well known and indisputable that plaster has a
short shelf life, cos old stuff goes off far too quickly when you try to
use it - I, for one, had never heard that cement has similar properties
so I just wondered if you were confusing the two.

David

mike ring March 26th 05 11:18 AM

Lobster wrote in
:

The bag says store in a dry place, which I have, but no mention at
all of a shelf life or use by date.


What I meant was, it's well known and indisputable that plaster has a
short shelf life, cos old stuff goes off far too quickly when you try
to use it - I, for one, had never heard that cement has similar
properties so I just wondered if you were confusing the two.


No, it's the opposite. It refuses to set, it'e *still* not gone orf at all,
just dried to a stiff stodge!

Of course, I've never played with plaster, I can't even work cement.

It's a dry mix of sand and cement to some BS part xyz, which I take to mean
it should work.

It seems from googling to be assumed there is a shortish shelf life, but
no-one has mentioned what it is, or why it dies while looking in good nick.

I'll have to go and get some more, but I'd really like to know what's going
on

mike

[email protected] March 26th 05 01:57 PM

In article , Lobster davidlobst
writes
mike ring wrote:
Lobster wrote in
:


It looks perfectly good, but I understand that cement has a short
shelf life, even if kept warm amd dry; however mine looks perfect.

Aren't you thinking of plaster?


No, Supamix dry mortar mix.

The bag says store in a dry place, which I have, but no mention at all of a
shelf life or use by date.


What I meant was, it's well known and indisputable that plaster has a
short shelf life, cos old stuff goes off far too quickly when you try to
use it - I, for one, had never heard that cement has similar properties
so I just wondered if you were confusing the two.

David


you can sort old plaster out with Tartaric acid, cement airsets which
doesn't necessarily mean big lumps but it can become inactive, the
effect is opposite to plaster.
--
David

[email protected] March 26th 05 02:01 PM

In article , mike ring
writes
Lobster wrote in
:

The bag says store in a dry place, which I have, but no mention at
all of a shelf life or use by date.


What I meant was, it's well known and indisputable that plaster has a
short shelf life, cos old stuff goes off far too quickly when you try
to use it - I, for one, had never heard that cement has similar
properties so I just wondered if you were confusing the two.


No, it's the opposite. It refuses to set, it'e *still* not gone orf at all,
just dried to a stiff stodge!

Of course, I've never played with plaster, I can't even work cement.

It's a dry mix of sand and cement to some BS part xyz, which I take to mean
it should work.

It seems from googling to be assumed there is a shortish shelf life, but
no-one has mentioned what it is, or why it dies while looking in good nick.

I'll have to go and get some more, but I'd really like to know what's going
on

mike


Cement will absorb moisture from the air and will hydrate (set) in the
bag, often this will be seen as solid lumps but it can remain as a
powder but will be a lot less reactive than new cement which is why it
can take a long time to set and be fairly weak. I would get a new bag if
its at all critical and I would count not losing face in front of your
neighbour as being critical
--
David

Dave Liquorice March 26th 05 02:40 PM

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:57:34 +0000,
wrote:

you can sort old plaster out with Tartaric acid,


Filed away for future reference... Mind you I think everyone ought to
learn to plaster with old stuff, in small quantities. The fact it sets
so fast forces you into the proper "whack it on and leave it" method
of working rather than "put it up, smooth it, put more on in the
hollows, smooth that, faff about, why won't that buldge smooth out any
more? ah it's set..."

--
Cheers

Dave. pam is missing e-mail




mike ring March 26th 05 09:43 PM

wrote in
:

Cement will absorb moisture from the air and will hydrate (set) in the
bag, often this will be seen as solid lumps but it can remain as a
powder but will be a lot less reactive than new cement which is why it
can take a long time to set and be fairly weak.


Got to be what's happened - they could have warned me

I would get a new bag if its at all critical and I would count not losing
face in front of your neighbour as being critical


Absolutely - he knows I can electrify and plumb (thanks to free tuition
here); I can't have a newly-bodged post fall over in 20 mmins ;o)

mike


mike ring March 26th 05 09:45 PM

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.com:


you can sort old plaster out with Tartaric acid,


Filed away for future reference... Mind you I think everyone ought to
learn to plaster with old stuff, in small quantities. The fact it sets
so fast forces you into the proper "whack it on and leave it" method
of working rather than "put it up, smooth it, put more on in the
hollows, smooth that, faff about, why won't that buldge smooth out any
more? ah it's set..."

YOU WERE WATCHING!! and that's just filling cracks!

Thanks to all for the info, I wish they'd put it on the bag

mike

raden March 26th 05 10:24 PM

In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:57:34 +0000,
wrote:

you can sort old plaster out with Tartaric acid,


Filed away for future reference... Mind you I think everyone ought to
learn to plaster with old stuff, in small quantities. The fact it sets
so fast forces you into the proper "whack it on and leave it"


Had that happen to me several times - with "new" bags of plaster

The problem is that, while nobody else notices, it leaps out at me every
time I go past

--
geoff

The Natural Philosopher March 27th 05 02:40 AM

mike ring wrote:

"Mike" wrote in :


Just for interest, if it does deteriorate, could anyone explain the
mechanism - it would ease the pain of shelling out for a new bag!


It absorbs moisture from the air and forms hard lumps. If it hasn't done
this I still wouldn't recommend building a house with it but for a fence
post go ahead. The worst it can do is refuse to set.


That's the problem - it does seem to refuse to set, but I wanted to find
out how long I need to wait.

It's been 24hrs and my test bit is still toffeeish, it wouldn't hold up a
post.


Will take a couple of days at this temp to set hard.

I guess that means it's knackered, but with an undated bag, and it looking
perfectly good, it's a bit hard for a muppet like me to tell.


Its fine. You are just impatient.

If it didn't turn to rock, its OK. I just used a half bag I had leftover
from last year, and it went off allright in a coule of days, once I had
sieved the rock hard lumps out of it and used a bit more than usueal for
luck...

Oh by teh way, there is not size dependent cire time for concrete. Its
only depebndeint on temperature. generally it sets overnight in summer,
and about 2 nights in winter, to the level it feels 'hard' and takes on
full strength over a couple of weeks.

It takes time to DRY OUT though...


mike


Biff March 27th 05 01:19 PM

Better still, give up the addiction to Ordinary Portland Cement and
take up an enthusiasm for lime.

[email protected] March 27th 05 01:49 PM

In article , The Natural
Philosopher writes


Its fine. You are just impatient.

If it didn't turn to rock, its OK. I just used a half bag I had leftover
from last year, and it went off allright in a coule of days, once I had
sieved the rock hard lumps out of it and used a bit more than usueal for
luck...

This is not true, cement powder loses its reactivity and you will end up
with a weak matrix, not critical as far as a post mix is concerned but
could be critical elsewhere. Cement is at its most reactive just after
its manufactured and gets slower and weaker from then on. Just because
it has set doesn't mean its strong.

Oh by teh way, there is not size dependent cire time for concrete. Its
only depebndeint on temperature. generally it sets overnight in summer,
and about 2 nights in winter, to the level it feels 'hard' and takes on
full strength over a couple of weeks.

You obviously don't work with structural concrete or even slabs that
need to have achieved a certain strength before loading. Concrete has
initial set (surface hard) and final set (hard all the way through), you
are right to say that these can be dependant on temp but you can achieve
a false surface set if you have severe drying conditions. The rate of
strength gain of concrete is a well understood area and are usually
measured at 1, 3, 7, and 28 day intervals.


It takes time to DRY OUT though...


--
David

Biff March 27th 05 07:30 PM

And plastering with lime is much better too. It sets slowly and gently
so you can work in a relaxed way, stopping for tea when the mood takes
you. Give up OPC and gypsum.

Mike March 29th 05 12:25 AM


"Biff" wrote in message
om...
Better still, give up the addiction to Ordinary Portland Cement and
take up an enthusiasm for lime.


Hmm. I have some enthusiasm for lime but supporting posts whilst waiting
for it to dry would test this enthusiasm well beyond it's limits :-)



Mike March 29th 05 12:26 AM


"Biff" wrote in message
om...
And plastering with lime is much better too. It sets slowly and gently
so you can work in a relaxed way, stopping for tea when the mood takes
you.


And a three course dinner, day off sightseeing and then a weekend break
before it's set :-)



Andrew Gabriel March 29th 05 02:14 AM

In article .com,
writes:
should be ok. Normally it sets into a rock when its had it.


In my experience, it just gets steadily more and more lumpy,
as opposed to starting off as a fine running powder.

--
Andrew Gabriel


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