UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
tom w
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for
the access problems).

Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

Tom


---
to reply directly, replace tlw_nospam with tom


  #2   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"tom w" wrote in message
...
Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for
the access problems).

Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

Tom


Have you checked that the pipework from the meter is in copper, and that you
can't disconnect the supply from that end to both the gas fires ?

If you could find the point the point where the pipework branches off to the
different appliances, it might make life a bit easier for you.

And compression stop ends are not really allowed as a permanent cap for gas
pipes. Even if you have wrapped them all in PTFE tape.


  #3   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

In article ,
tom w wrote:
I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one
already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was
copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job
easily.


Don't think a compression fitting is considered adequate as a concealed
gas connector.

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #4   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"tom w" wrote in message
...
Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one

already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe

under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the

dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through

lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly

wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat

again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what

I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked

as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2"

6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find

another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a

stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in

the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't

for
the access problems).

Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

Tom


Have you checked that the pipework from the meter is in copper, and that

you
can't disconnect the supply from that end to both the gas fires ?

If you could find the point the point where the pipework branches off to

the
different appliances, it might make life a bit easier for you.

And compression stop ends are not really allowed as a permanent cap for

gas
pipes.


I know of no regulation that says so. The old gas boards would only use
soldered copper joints with compression only at the appliance connection
point. There was no regulation that said that was mandatory.

Even if you have wrapped them all in PTFE tape.


You are "not" supposed to wrap a compression olive in PTFE, even the gas
PTFE. The PTFE makers say do it, which of course they will say. You clean
the pipe, insert a new olive and a light smear of jointing compound around
the rim of the compression fitting. The smear is unofficial. Just a dry
joint is supposed to enough using good quality fittings.


  #5   Report Post  
Tom W
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

Hi,

thanks for the response. Getting to the area where the gas pipes branch off
isn't really feasible (behind kitchen cabinets and under the floor in an
tight corner). I've followed the gas pipe as far back as I can, and it's
lead all the way (on the length that's reachable), so I think stopping the
lead pipe is all I can do.

Cheers

Tom

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"tom w" wrote in message
...
Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one

already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe

under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the

dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through

lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly

wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat

again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what

I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked

as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2"

6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find

another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a

stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in

the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't

for
the access problems).

Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

Tom


Have you checked that the pipework from the meter is in copper, and that

you
can't disconnect the supply from that end to both the gas fires ?

If you could find the point the point where the pipework branches off to

the
different appliances, it might make life a bit easier for you.

And compression stop ends are not really allowed as a permanent cap for

gas
pipes. Even if you have wrapped them all in PTFE tape.






  #6   Report Post  
John Stumbles
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

"tom w" wrote in message
...
Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one

already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe

under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the

dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through

lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat

again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked

as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2"

6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a

stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for
the access problems).


I'm pretty sure Lead-loc fittings are not approved for use with gas (meaning
that by law you are not allowed to use them). Your bash-it-flat technique
would also get you thrown out of a gas assessment with a flea in your ear,
not to mention a RIDDOR on it to the HSE!

Unless you can make a (good) soldered joint to the lead you should either
get someone in who can do it or renew the other pipe runs so your lead
branch becomes disused.


  #7   Report Post  
steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

"John Stumbles" wrote in message ...
"tom w" wrote in message
...
Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one

already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe

under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the

dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through

lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat

again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked

as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2"

6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a

stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for
the access problems).


I'm pretty sure Lead-loc fittings are not approved for use with gas (meaning
that by law you are not allowed to use them). Your bash-it-flat technique
would also get you thrown out of a gas assessment with a flea in your ear,
not to mention a RIDDOR on it to the HSE!

Unless you can make a (good) soldered joint to the lead you should either
get someone in who can do it or renew the other pipe runs so your lead
branch becomes disused.


Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper
joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for
an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead

Might it just be simpler to have new copper run from meter to gas
cooker and boiler?

then you wont have the worry and maybe get a bit of the money back on
the scrap lead?

Steve
  #8   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

In article ,
steve wrote:
Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper
joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for
an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead


You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably
most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical...

--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #9   Report Post  
fred
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

In article , tom w
writes
Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for
the access problems).

Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

Tom

You may find that the pipe is not lead at all, but "block tin". I've got some
of this that I took out my place & it has a smother finish than lead and will
be very shiny if cut or the oxide removed.

Good news is that if you remove it you will get many times the price that
lead fetches at the scrappy. Unfortunately it will be many times more
difficult to work or to cap than lead. If you try to form wet joint using a
blowtorch you will likely end up with a large blob of liquid tin on the floor
(low melting point and abrupt change of state) and if you use compression,
the thin wall thickness is likely to collapse.

I'm sorry to say that in your place I would take it back to copper, even if
that means breaking open floors/walls.

ps: the scrappy will tell you it's lead - it's not . . .
--
fred
  #10   Report Post  
steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article ,
steve wrote:
Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper
joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for
an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead


You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably
most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical...


Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he
capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder
endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end
of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and
then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be
how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers
used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested
looking for one with that experience

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants
still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a
taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to
remind him of the olden days


Steve


  #11   Report Post  
steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article ,
steve wrote:
Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper
joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for
an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead


You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably
most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical...


Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he
capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder
endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end
of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and
then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be
how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers
used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested
looking for one with that experience

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants
still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a
taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to
remind him of the olden days


Steve
  #12   Report Post  
steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article ,
steve wrote:
Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper
joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for
an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead


You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably
most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical...


Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he
capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder
endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end
of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and
then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be
how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers
used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested
looking for one with that experience

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants
still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a
taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to
remind him of the olden days


Steve
  #13   Report Post  
steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article ,
steve wrote:
Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper
joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for
an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead


You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably
most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical...


But I did say unless you have experience yourself

And was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he
capped the other with a comp stop end. As you said not the correct
thing to do when under the floorbaord where i presume it was capped.
Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs
compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or
joining in a piece of copper and then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be
how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers
used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested
looking for one with experience of doing that sort of joint

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants
still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a
taper looking very like a cask tap god knows how old they are I gather
the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days


Steve
  #14   Report Post  
Tony Bryer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

In article , Steve
wrote:
But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be
how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers
used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested
looking for one with that experience


In my first job I worked with a guy (who would now be 90ish if still
alive) who trained as a plumber. One of the tests for apprentices was
to boss a bend in 4" lead soil pipe, then hacksaw through the bend to
show that the wall thickness was constant. We sure have it easy!

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm


  #15   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Steve
wrote:
But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be
how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers
used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested
looking for one with that experience


In my first job I worked with a guy (who would now be 90ish if still
alive) who trained as a plumber. One of the tests for apprentices was
to boss a bend in 4" lead soil pipe, then hacksaw through the bend to
show that the wall thickness was constant. We sure have it easy!


I had to do the same bashing out a lead flue tile with a lead dresser.




  #16   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:47:40 +0100, John Stumbles wrote:

"tom w" wrote in message
...
Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to
reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one

already
in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe

under
the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the

dining
room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through

lead
pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't
allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat

again'
approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I
need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked

as
1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2"

6lb.
Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another
solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a

stop
end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the
future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for
the access problems).


I'm pretty sure Lead-loc fittings are not approved for use with gas (meaning
that by law you are not allowed to use them). Your bash-it-flat technique
would also get you thrown out of a gas assessment with a flea in your ear,
not to mention a RIDDOR on it to the HSE!

Unless you can make a (good) soldered joint to the lead you should either
get someone in who can do it or renew the other pipe runs so your lead
branch becomes disused.


I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.
I'm not enirely sure the OP isn't from Scandinavia? Otherwise he should
read the FAQ and leave the job to someone is knows what they are doing.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html


  #17   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.


As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron
barrel gas pipes.

--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #18   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.


As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron
barrel gas pipes.



Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead
on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels)


---
http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07/06/04


  #19   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.


As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron
barrel gas pipes.



Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead
on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels)


I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids.
The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a
1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not
been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion
crews. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed
the gas boiler in 1972-1975.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html


  #20   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.

As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron
barrel gas pipes.



Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of

lead
on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels)


I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids.
The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a
1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not
been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion
crews. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed
the gas boiler in 1972-1975.



If it was inside the house Ed, then it more than likely was made from block tin
(it creakels when you bent it so you know it's block tin) rather than lead.
Block tin is more inert than lead if pumping gas (town or natural) through it.
It could also be extruded to thinner wall thicknesses and keep its strength
better than lead could, so it was the better method used inside the houses.

So it might not have been lead you seen, although the two do look very similar
in appearance.


---
http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07/06/04




  #21   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.

As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron
barrel gas pipes.


Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin
as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead
on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's
block tin if it creakels)


Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in most
until WW2 and after. Iron started to replace lead befoire WW2 and after took
off after. In some parts of the country gas pipes are still in iron. In
many new houses iron is still the choice. In other parts of the country
copper has been the norm in gas since WW2 , and still is and should be too.

I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead
for lighting in ceiling voids.
The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any
live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead
was probably from original installation, but had not
been removed by and subsequent meter change
or Natural Gas conversion crews.


Natural gas conversion crews never removed lead. In the 1970s lead was
still very common, gas tight and working well.

Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted
by the fitter who installed
the gas boiler in 1972-1975.


In the Manchester area the area gas board was installing lead gas pipes for
gas cooker and fores runs up until the late 1970s and probably beyond. I
know friends in Chester who in 1978 had lead pipe delivered for a gas fire
run and told them to take it away and fit copper. They did without question
and all the same price. The fitters would feed the coiled lead through under
the floor boards. One old trick was to open two floor boards at each end of
the run, then send a car down with a string. It always came up at the other
hole in the boards with the string, then they could pull through the coiled
lead pipe.

There is nothing wrong with using an existing 3/4" lead gas pipe for a gas
boiler. If it is gas tight then use it. The problem is that not many have
the skills today to make a lead joint, that is why they rip it out. I have
come across 100 year old lead pipe in walls that has been near perfect. The
only problems with the pipe was where they rammed the iron lead hooks into
the wall. These would sometime crimp the lead.

I once came across a house that still had gas lights in the 1970s, with no
electricity in the house. Two old dears who still had a dolly tub. I have
fitted gas lights, made by Veritas, they were popular after the power cuts
in the 1970s. The Tower hotel at Tower Bridge had them fitted in certain
areas. I think they are still there.



  #22   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in
most until WW2 and after.


My parents house in Aberdeen built well before WW2 didn't. My London
Victorian house didn't either - it was iron barrel and original.

I'll have to check on Land's End and John O'Grotes.

--
*Rehab is for quitters

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #23   Report Post  
Andrew Mawson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation

is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.

As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron
barrel gas pipes.

Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin
as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead
on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's
block tin if it creakels)


Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in

most
until WW2 and after. Iron started to replace lead befoire WW2 and after

took
off after. In some parts of the country gas pipes are still in iron. In
many new houses iron is still the choice. In other parts of the country
copper has been the norm in gas since WW2 , and still is and should be

too.

I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead
for lighting in ceiling voids.
The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any
live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead
was probably from original installation, but had not
been removed by and subsequent meter change
or Natural Gas conversion crews.


Natural gas conversion crews never removed lead. In the 1970s lead was
still very common, gas tight and working well.

Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted
by the fitter who installed
the gas boiler in 1972-1975.


In the Manchester area the area gas board was installing lead gas pipes

for
gas cooker and fores runs up until the late 1970s and probably beyond. I
know friends in Chester who in 1978 had lead pipe delivered for a gas fire
run and told them to take it away and fit copper. They did without

question
and all the same price. The fitters would feed the coiled lead through

under
the floor boards. One old trick was to open two floor boards at each end

of
the run, then send a car down with a string. It always came up at the

other
hole in the boards with the string, then they could pull through the

coiled
lead pipe.

There is nothing wrong with using an existing 3/4" lead gas pipe for a

gas
boiler. If it is gas tight then use it. The problem is that not many

have
the skills today to make a lead joint, that is why they rip it out. I have
come across 100 year old lead pipe in walls that has been near perfect.

The
only problems with the pipe was where they rammed the iron lead hooks into
the wall. These would sometime crimp the lead.

I once came across a house that still had gas lights in the 1970s, with no
electricity in the house. Two old dears who still had a dolly tub. I have
fitted gas lights, made by Veritas, they were popular after the power cuts
in the 1970s. The Tower hotel at Tower Bridge had them fitted in certain
areas. I think they are still there.





.. . . . I seem to remember that lead pipe has a habit of growing crystals in
its internal structure, and as they are cubic the material becomes less
ductile and they propogate cracks. This process happens over many decades
but I'm assured that it does happen. I've had a lead water main go this way
in a house of circa 1890.

Personally I'd not be at all happy with lead gas pipes and my preference is
for threaded gas barrel indoors - it's eay to work if you have the correct
tools, and in future will turn that floor nail that someone may knock in.
Using copper is ok in theory but in the nail senario with water you know
imediately that you have a leak whereas with gas you may not find out until
it's too late !

Andrew Mawson


  #24   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas

installation
is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.

As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but

iron
barrel gas pipes.

Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin
as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead
on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's
block tin if it creakels)


Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in

most
until WW2 and after. Iron started to replace lead befoire WW2 and after

took
off after. In some parts of the country gas pipes are still in iron.

In
many new houses iron is still the choice. In other parts of the country
copper has been the norm in gas since WW2 , and still is and should be

too.

I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead
for lighting in ceiling voids.
The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any
live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead
was probably from original installation, but had not
been removed by and subsequent meter change
or Natural Gas conversion crews.


Natural gas conversion crews never removed lead. In the 1970s lead was
still very common, gas tight and working well.

Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted
by the fitter who installed
the gas boiler in 1972-1975.


In the Manchester area the area gas board was installing lead gas pipes

for
gas cooker and fores runs up until the late 1970s and probably beyond. I
know friends in Chester who in 1978 had lead pipe delivered for a gas

fire
run and told them to take it away and fit copper. They did without

question
and all the same price. The fitters would feed the coiled lead through

under
the floor boards. One old trick was to open two floor boards at each end

of
the run, then send a car down with a string. It always came up at the

other
hole in the boards with the string, then they could pull through the

coiled
lead pipe.

There is nothing wrong with using an existing 3/4" lead gas pipe for a

gas
boiler. If it is gas tight then use it. The problem is that not many

have
the skills today to make a lead joint, that is why they rip it out. I

have
come across 100 year old lead pipe in walls that has been near perfect.

The
only problems with the pipe was where they rammed the iron lead hooks

into
the wall. These would sometime crimp the lead.

I once came across a house that still had gas lights in the 1970s, with

no
electricity in the house. Two old dears who still had a dolly tub. I

have
fitted gas lights, made by Veritas, they were popular after the power

cuts
in the 1970s. The Tower hotel at Tower Bridge had them fitted in certain
areas. I think they are still there.


. . . . I seem to remember that lead pipe has
a habit of growing crystals in its internal structure,
and as they are cubic the material becomes less
ductile and they propogate cracks. This process
happens over many decades but I'm assured
that it does happen. I've had a lead water main
go this way in a house of circa 1890.


When lead pipe is embedded in plaster it is supported on all side, so less
strain when expansion and contraction occurs. Lead on hooks on the wall
would sag and fail early. I have come across 100 year old lead pipe in
basements, where the temperature is pretty stable all year around, that was
supported on wall batons. It was near perfect, having no chance to sag.

Personally I'd not be at all happy with
lead gas pipes and my preference is
for threaded gas barrel indoors


"gas barrel"? What is this?

- it's eay to work if you have the correct
tools, and in future will turn that floor nail
that someone may knock in.
Using copper is ok in theory but in the nail
senario with water you know
imediately that you have a leak whereas with
gas you may not find out until
it's too late !


They give gas a smell to notify people that there is an escape. Copper gas
pipes can be installed so that nails will not penetrate it.


  #25   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:54:51 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.

As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My
Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron
barrel gas pipes.



Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of

lead
on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels)


I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids.
The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a
1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not
been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion
crews. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed
the gas boiler in 1972-1975.



If it was inside the house Ed, then it more than likely was made from block tin
(it creakels when you bent it so you know it's block tin) rather than lead.
Block tin is more inert than lead if pumping gas (town or natural) through it.
It could also be extruded to thinner wall thicknesses and keep its strength
better than lead could, so it was the better method used inside the houses.

So it might not have been lead you seen, although the two do look very similar
in appearance.

I don't remember to much about it so you may well be right.
I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable.
I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html




  #26   Report Post  
John Stumbles
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:54:51 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation

is
cause for at least an At Risk notice.


....

I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable.
I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR.


Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing lead
pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to extend it
or put in new, but you can use what's there.


  #27   Report Post  
John
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news


SNIP

I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable.
I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR.


Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing

lead
pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to extend

it
or put in new, but you can use what's there.


That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not To
Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable risk in
a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some time
ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during fire
fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" I'm guessing it was a meter
connection in the cupboard under the stairs in 3/4" lead which probably
ended up as a puddle with an uncontrolled escape full bore from the incoming
supply!

We shall probably see even more regulations coming along pretty soon :-(


  #28   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"John" wrote in message
...

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news


SNIP

I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable.
I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are

AR.

Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing

lead
pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to

extend
it
or put in new, but you can use what's there.


That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not To
Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable risk

in
a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some

time
ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during fire
fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" I'm guessing it was a meter
connection in the cupboard under the stairs in 3/4" lead which probably
ended up as a puddle with an uncontrolled escape full bore from the

incoming
supply!


I have seen gas meters with stainless inlet and outlet in fires and not melt
or break joints. A full bore that feeds the fire is what you don't want. I
have also seen a battery of gas meters, in the olden days when they put them
at the front door, that was at the core of a fire and all totally melt.



  #29   Report Post  
John Stumbles
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

"John" wrote in message
...

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news


SNIP

I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable.
I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are

AR.

Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing

lead
pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to

extend
it
or put in new, but you can use what's there.


That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not To
Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable risk

in
a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some

time
ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during fire
fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" ...


I'd reckon that any soldered joint would be at risk of coming apart and
****ing out gas in a fi all it needs is a bit of pull on the joint which
could happen as a result of various things going on due to the fire even if
there weren't pre-exisiting stresses acting on the pipework (of course there
shouldn't be but there's no way of telling in an installation). AIUI this is
why soft-soldered joints are prohibited for oil supply pipework. I guess The
Powers That Be reckon the risks posed by soldered gas pipework are not worth
the enormous hassle of changing practice in the industry to avert.


  #30   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lead-Loc and Gas pipes


"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news


SNIP

I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable.
I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are

AR.

Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing

lead
pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to

extend
it
or put in new, but you can use what's there.


That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not

To
Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable

risk
in
a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some

time
ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during

fire
fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" ...


I'd reckon that any soldered joint would be at risk of coming apart and
****ing out gas in a fi all it needs is a bit of pull on the joint

which
could happen as a result of various things going on due to the fire even

if
there weren't pre-exisiting stresses acting on the pipework (of course

there
shouldn't be but there's no way of telling in an installation). AIUI this

is
why soft-soldered joints are prohibited for oil supply pipework. I guess

The
Powers That Be reckon the risks posed by soldered gas pipework are not

worth
the enormous hassle of changing practice in the industry to avert.


Soldered joints are not allowed inside the chimney breast of a back boiler
installation, and haven't been fro around 30 years.


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:49 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"