Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
Hi
I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). Thanks in advance for any help/advice. Tom --- to reply directly, replace tlw_nospam with tom |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"tom w" wrote in message ... Hi I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). Thanks in advance for any help/advice. Tom Have you checked that the pipework from the meter is in copper, and that you can't disconnect the supply from that end to both the gas fires ? If you could find the point the point where the pipework branches off to the different appliances, it might make life a bit easier for you. And compression stop ends are not really allowed as a permanent cap for gas pipes. Even if you have wrapped them all in PTFE tape. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
In article ,
tom w wrote: I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. Don't think a compression fitting is considered adequate as a concealed gas connector. -- *There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's* Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"BigWallop" wrote in message ... "tom w" wrote in message ... Hi I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). Thanks in advance for any help/advice. Tom Have you checked that the pipework from the meter is in copper, and that you can't disconnect the supply from that end to both the gas fires ? If you could find the point the point where the pipework branches off to the different appliances, it might make life a bit easier for you. And compression stop ends are not really allowed as a permanent cap for gas pipes. I know of no regulation that says so. The old gas boards would only use soldered copper joints with compression only at the appliance connection point. There was no regulation that said that was mandatory. Even if you have wrapped them all in PTFE tape. You are "not" supposed to wrap a compression olive in PTFE, even the gas PTFE. The PTFE makers say do it, which of course they will say. You clean the pipe, insert a new olive and a light smear of jointing compound around the rim of the compression fitting. The smear is unofficial. Just a dry joint is supposed to enough using good quality fittings. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
Hi,
thanks for the response. Getting to the area where the gas pipes branch off isn't really feasible (behind kitchen cabinets and under the floor in an tight corner). I've followed the gas pipe as far back as I can, and it's lead all the way (on the length that's reachable), so I think stopping the lead pipe is all I can do. Cheers Tom "BigWallop" wrote in message ... "tom w" wrote in message ... Hi I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). Thanks in advance for any help/advice. Tom Have you checked that the pipework from the meter is in copper, and that you can't disconnect the supply from that end to both the gas fires ? If you could find the point the point where the pipework branches off to the different appliances, it might make life a bit easier for you. And compression stop ends are not really allowed as a permanent cap for gas pipes. Even if you have wrapped them all in PTFE tape. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"tom w" wrote in message
... Hi I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). I'm pretty sure Lead-loc fittings are not approved for use with gas (meaning that by law you are not allowed to use them). Your bash-it-flat technique would also get you thrown out of a gas assessment with a flea in your ear, not to mention a RIDDOR on it to the HSE! Unless you can make a (good) soldered joint to the lead you should either get someone in who can do it or renew the other pipe runs so your lead branch becomes disused. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ...
"tom w" wrote in message ... Hi I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). I'm pretty sure Lead-loc fittings are not approved for use with gas (meaning that by law you are not allowed to use them). Your bash-it-flat technique would also get you thrown out of a gas assessment with a flea in your ear, not to mention a RIDDOR on it to the HSE! Unless you can make a (good) soldered joint to the lead you should either get someone in who can do it or renew the other pipe runs so your lead branch becomes disused. Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead Might it just be simpler to have new copper run from meter to gas cooker and boiler? then you wont have the worry and maybe get a bit of the money back on the scrap lead? Steve |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
In article ,
steve wrote: Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical... -- *Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
In article , tom w
writes Hi I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). Thanks in advance for any help/advice. Tom You may find that the pipe is not lead at all, but "block tin". I've got some of this that I took out my place & it has a smother finish than lead and will be very shiny if cut or the oxide removed. Good news is that if you remove it you will get many times the price that lead fetches at the scrappy. Unfortunately it will be many times more difficult to work or to cap than lead. If you try to form wet joint using a blowtorch you will likely end up with a large blob of liquid tin on the floor (low melting point and abrupt change of state) and if you use compression, the thin wall thickness is likely to collapse. I'm sorry to say that in your place I would take it back to copper, even if that means breaking open floors/walls. ps: the scrappy will tell you it's lead - it's not . . . -- fred |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article , steve wrote: Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical... Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it. But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days Steve |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article , steve wrote: Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical... Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it. But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days Steve |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article , steve wrote: Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical... Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it. But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days Steve |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
In article , steve wrote: Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical... But I did say unless you have experience yourself And was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. As you said not the correct thing to do when under the floorbaord where i presume it was capped. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it. But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with experience of doing that sort of joint Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper looking very like a cask tap god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days Steve |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
In article , Steve
wrote: But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience In my first job I worked with a guy (who would now be 90ish if still alive) who trained as a plumber. One of the tests for apprentices was to boss a bend in 4" lead soil pipe, then hacksaw through the bend to show that the wall thickness was constant. We sure have it easy! -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message ... In article , Steve wrote: But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience In my first job I worked with a guy (who would now be 90ish if still alive) who trained as a plumber. One of the tests for apprentices was to boss a bend in 4" lead soil pipe, then hacksaw through the bend to show that the wall thickness was constant. We sure have it easy! I had to do the same bashing out a lead flue tile with a lead dresser. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:47:40 +0100, John Stumbles wrote:
"tom w" wrote in message ... Hi I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as 1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems). I'm pretty sure Lead-loc fittings are not approved for use with gas (meaning that by law you are not allowed to use them). Your bash-it-flat technique would also get you thrown out of a gas assessment with a flea in your ear, not to mention a RIDDOR on it to the HSE! Unless you can make a (good) soldered joint to the lead you should either get someone in who can do it or renew the other pipe runs so your lead branch becomes disused. I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. I'm not enirely sure the OP isn't from Scandinavia? Otherwise he should read the FAQ and leave the job to someone is knows what they are doing. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. -- *Black holes are where God divided by zero * Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels) --- http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07/06/04 |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote:
"Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels) I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids. The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion crews. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed the gas boiler in 1972-1975. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message news On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote: "Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels) I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids. The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion crews. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed the gas boiler in 1972-1975. If it was inside the house Ed, then it more than likely was made from block tin (it creakels when you bent it so you know it's block tin) rather than lead. Block tin is more inert than lead if pumping gas (town or natural) through it. It could also be extruded to thinner wall thicknesses and keep its strength better than lead could, so it was the better method used inside the houses. So it might not have been lead you seen, although the two do look very similar in appearance. --- http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07/06/04 |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message news On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote: "Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels) Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in most until WW2 and after. Iron started to replace lead befoire WW2 and after took off after. In some parts of the country gas pipes are still in iron. In many new houses iron is still the choice. In other parts of the country copper has been the norm in gas since WW2 , and still is and should be too. I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids. The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion crews. Natural gas conversion crews never removed lead. In the 1970s lead was still very common, gas tight and working well. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed the gas boiler in 1972-1975. In the Manchester area the area gas board was installing lead gas pipes for gas cooker and fores runs up until the late 1970s and probably beyond. I know friends in Chester who in 1978 had lead pipe delivered for a gas fire run and told them to take it away and fit copper. They did without question and all the same price. The fitters would feed the coiled lead through under the floor boards. One old trick was to open two floor boards at each end of the run, then send a car down with a string. It always came up at the other hole in the boards with the string, then they could pull through the coiled lead pipe. There is nothing wrong with using an existing 3/4" lead gas pipe for a gas boiler. If it is gas tight then use it. The problem is that not many have the skills today to make a lead joint, that is why they rip it out. I have come across 100 year old lead pipe in walls that has been near perfect. The only problems with the pipe was where they rammed the iron lead hooks into the wall. These would sometime crimp the lead. I once came across a house that still had gas lights in the 1970s, with no electricity in the house. Two old dears who still had a dolly tub. I have fitted gas lights, made by Veritas, they were popular after the power cuts in the 1970s. The Tower hotel at Tower Bridge had them fitted in certain areas. I think they are still there. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
In article ,
IMM wrote: Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in most until WW2 and after. My parents house in Aberdeen built well before WW2 didn't. My London Victorian house didn't either - it was iron barrel and original. I'll have to check on Land's End and John O'Grotes. -- *Rehab is for quitters Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"IMM" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message news On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote: "Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels) Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in most until WW2 and after. Iron started to replace lead befoire WW2 and after took off after. In some parts of the country gas pipes are still in iron. In many new houses iron is still the choice. In other parts of the country copper has been the norm in gas since WW2 , and still is and should be too. I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids. The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion crews. Natural gas conversion crews never removed lead. In the 1970s lead was still very common, gas tight and working well. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed the gas boiler in 1972-1975. In the Manchester area the area gas board was installing lead gas pipes for gas cooker and fores runs up until the late 1970s and probably beyond. I know friends in Chester who in 1978 had lead pipe delivered for a gas fire run and told them to take it away and fit copper. They did without question and all the same price. The fitters would feed the coiled lead through under the floor boards. One old trick was to open two floor boards at each end of the run, then send a car down with a string. It always came up at the other hole in the boards with the string, then they could pull through the coiled lead pipe. There is nothing wrong with using an existing 3/4" lead gas pipe for a gas boiler. If it is gas tight then use it. The problem is that not many have the skills today to make a lead joint, that is why they rip it out. I have come across 100 year old lead pipe in walls that has been near perfect. The only problems with the pipe was where they rammed the iron lead hooks into the wall. These would sometime crimp the lead. I once came across a house that still had gas lights in the 1970s, with no electricity in the house. Two old dears who still had a dolly tub. I have fitted gas lights, made by Veritas, they were popular after the power cuts in the 1970s. The Tower hotel at Tower Bridge had them fitted in certain areas. I think they are still there. .. . . . I seem to remember that lead pipe has a habit of growing crystals in its internal structure, and as they are cubic the material becomes less ductile and they propogate cracks. This process happens over many decades but I'm assured that it does happen. I've had a lead water main go this way in a house of circa 1890. Personally I'd not be at all happy with lead gas pipes and my preference is for threaded gas barrel indoors - it's eay to work if you have the correct tools, and in future will turn that floor nail that someone may knock in. Using copper is ok in theory but in the nail senario with water you know imediately that you have a leak whereas with gas you may not find out until it's too late ! Andrew Mawson |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message ... "IMM" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message news On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote: "Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels) Most houses in the UK had lead gas pipes. Lead was fitted as choice in most until WW2 and after. Iron started to replace lead befoire WW2 and after took off after. In some parts of the country gas pipes are still in iron. In many new houses iron is still the choice. In other parts of the country copper has been the norm in gas since WW2 , and still is and should be too. I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids. The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion crews. Natural gas conversion crews never removed lead. In the 1970s lead was still very common, gas tight and working well. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed the gas boiler in 1972-1975. In the Manchester area the area gas board was installing lead gas pipes for gas cooker and fores runs up until the late 1970s and probably beyond. I know friends in Chester who in 1978 had lead pipe delivered for a gas fire run and told them to take it away and fit copper. They did without question and all the same price. The fitters would feed the coiled lead through under the floor boards. One old trick was to open two floor boards at each end of the run, then send a car down with a string. It always came up at the other hole in the boards with the string, then they could pull through the coiled lead pipe. There is nothing wrong with using an existing 3/4" lead gas pipe for a gas boiler. If it is gas tight then use it. The problem is that not many have the skills today to make a lead joint, that is why they rip it out. I have come across 100 year old lead pipe in walls that has been near perfect. The only problems with the pipe was where they rammed the iron lead hooks into the wall. These would sometime crimp the lead. I once came across a house that still had gas lights in the 1970s, with no electricity in the house. Two old dears who still had a dolly tub. I have fitted gas lights, made by Veritas, they were popular after the power cuts in the 1970s. The Tower hotel at Tower Bridge had them fitted in certain areas. I think they are still there. . . . . I seem to remember that lead pipe has a habit of growing crystals in its internal structure, and as they are cubic the material becomes less ductile and they propogate cracks. This process happens over many decades but I'm assured that it does happen. I've had a lead water main go this way in a house of circa 1890. When lead pipe is embedded in plaster it is supported on all side, so less strain when expansion and contraction occurs. Lead on hooks on the wall would sag and fail early. I have come across 100 year old lead pipe in basements, where the temperature is pretty stable all year around, that was supported on wall batons. It was near perfect, having no chance to sag. Personally I'd not be at all happy with lead gas pipes and my preference is for threaded gas barrel indoors "gas barrel"? What is this? - it's eay to work if you have the correct tools, and in future will turn that floor nail that someone may knock in. Using copper is ok in theory but in the nail senario with water you know imediately that you have a leak whereas with gas you may not find out until it's too late ! They give gas a smell to notify people that there is an escape. Copper gas pipes can be installed so that nails will not penetrate it. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:54:51 +0000, BigWallop wrote:
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message news On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote: "Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes. Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels) I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids. The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a 1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion crews. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed the gas boiler in 1972-1975. If it was inside the house Ed, then it more than likely was made from block tin (it creakels when you bent it so you know it's block tin) rather than lead. Block tin is more inert than lead if pumping gas (town or natural) through it. It could also be extruded to thinner wall thicknesses and keep its strength better than lead could, so it was the better method used inside the houses. So it might not have been lead you seen, although the two do look very similar in appearance. I don't remember to much about it so you may well be right. I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable. I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:54:51 +0000, BigWallop wrote: "Ed Sirett" wrote in message news On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:16:22 +0000, BigWallop wrote: "Dave Plowman" wrote in message ... In article .uk, Ed Sirett wrote: I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. .... I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable. I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR. Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing lead pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to extend it or put in new, but you can use what's there. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message news SNIP I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable. I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR. Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing lead pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to extend it or put in new, but you can use what's there. That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not To Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable risk in a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some time ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during fire fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" I'm guessing it was a meter connection in the cupboard under the stairs in 3/4" lead which probably ended up as a puddle with an uncontrolled escape full bore from the incoming supply! We shall probably see even more regulations coming along pretty soon :-( |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"John" wrote in message ... "John Stumbles" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message news SNIP I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable. I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR. Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing lead pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to extend it or put in new, but you can use what's there. That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not To Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable risk in a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some time ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during fire fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" I'm guessing it was a meter connection in the cupboard under the stairs in 3/4" lead which probably ended up as a puddle with an uncontrolled escape full bore from the incoming supply! I have seen gas meters with stainless inlet and outlet in fires and not melt or break joints. A full bore that feeds the fire is what you don't want. I have also seen a battery of gas meters, in the olden days when they put them at the front door, that was at the core of a fire and all totally melt. |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"John" wrote in message
... "John Stumbles" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message news SNIP I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable. I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR. Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing lead pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to extend it or put in new, but you can use what's there. That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not To Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable risk in a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some time ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during fire fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" ... I'd reckon that any soldered joint would be at risk of coming apart and ****ing out gas in a fi all it needs is a bit of pull on the joint which could happen as a result of various things going on due to the fire even if there weren't pre-exisiting stresses acting on the pipework (of course there shouldn't be but there's no way of telling in an installation). AIUI this is why soft-soldered joints are prohibited for oil supply pipework. I guess The Powers That Be reckon the risks posed by soldered gas pipework are not worth the enormous hassle of changing practice in the industry to avert. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Lead-Loc and Gas pipes
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ... "John" wrote in message ... "John Stumbles" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message news SNIP I'm fairly sure tin or lead pipe work is not currently acceptable. I guess leaking is ID (See FAQ) and sound existing installations are AR. Never heard of tin pipework, but wrt Pb IIRC BS6891 says that existing lead pipework is acceptable if in good condition. You're not allowed to extend it or put in new, but you can use what's there. That's the way I look at it in on site situations. I give a NCS or Not To Current Standards report. It does strike me as a pretty considerable risk in a fire situation though. There was a terraced house fire in Goole some time ago in which the local rag reported the gas had to be cut off during fire fighting due to a leak "due to the fire" ... I'd reckon that any soldered joint would be at risk of coming apart and ****ing out gas in a fi all it needs is a bit of pull on the joint which could happen as a result of various things going on due to the fire even if there weren't pre-exisiting stresses acting on the pipework (of course there shouldn't be but there's no way of telling in an installation). AIUI this is why soft-soldered joints are prohibited for oil supply pipework. I guess The Powers That Be reckon the risks posed by soldered gas pipework are not worth the enormous hassle of changing practice in the industry to avert. Soldered joints are not allowed inside the chimney breast of a back boiler installation, and haven't been fro around 30 years. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|