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  #81   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:18:43 -0000, "top gear"
wrote:

My automotive engineering friends, not
mechanics, say that Slick 50 in the gear box will prevent wear.


Do they also suggest magnets on the fuel line?


No, they are not into gimmicks.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/



  #82   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
top gear wrote:
Full synthetic oil is not snake oil.


No one here has said it is.


Jerry said this "No, because you will loose that argument at every point,
also full synthetic oil is most certainly snake oil when people advise it's
use in engines that are not designed to need it."

All modern engines are designed to use oil of a specific API. I keep saying
this but it doesn't sink in with some people, so maybe I should give up.
Well here I go again, synthetics meet and exceed the standard. Synthetics
are also available for older thicker oil engines. There is no such thing as
engines designed not to use it, as it will do all engines. US car makers
took advantage of what full synthetics can offer by specifying 5-30 oils.
This is thin and requires less power to pump the oil around the engine
giving the odd percentage increase in fuel consumption.

Its benefits over run of the mill mineral oils is beyond question, and I
have no intention of going down the synthetic vs mineral argument.


No one here is arguing this either - although the main benefits of
synthetic are longer service life. Not better lubrication than other oils
when both are performing within spec.


That is totally incorrect. Synthetic oils have superior lubrication
qualities, that is beyond question. As they are more robust they last longer
keeping the engines far better lubricated near the end of a change interval,
while minerals will be seriously degraded by then causing friction within an
engine, which is wear. The thin nature of the oil means it gets to vital
turning bearing far quicker at start up, especially in cold weather.

Synthetics are no gimmick while some minerals oils are. Magnatec claims its
oil is magnetic. That sounds like scraping the barrel to compete. That is
snake oil.

My automotive engineering friends, not mechanics, say that Slick 50 in
the gear box will prevent wear. I believe them. :-)


Now you're into snake oil. There is no truly independant evidence that any
aftermarket oil additives improve the performance of good quality oil.
And equally as much that it may actually cause damage. And any *true*
engineer would agree with this.


I am only relaying what they say. They are very clued up top men.

Slick 50 g/box treatment is not a one off treatment like the engine
version. It has to be in at all times.


True ********. You are IMM and I claim my 5 pounds.


Begging will get you nowhere.

--
*I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.



  #83   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
news

:::Jerry:::: Wrote:
"top gear" wrote in message
...-

":::Jerry::::"
wrote in message
...-

"top gear"
wrote in message
...-

":::Jerry::::"
wrote in message
...

You are missing the point, the same can be true even if the--
recommended--
oils
and change periods are used, it is also true that engines and
transmissions
can fail even if the best oils are used, life of components has
far--
more--
to
do with how the car is driven than what oil might or might not
have--
been--
used - keep trying to 'crash' through the gears and any
transmission-
will-
have it's life expectancy shortened.

The point is not vehicle abuse.-

Yes it is.-

If you read the thread you will find it is not. I read the rest of
your-
post-
and it is clear you should focus on the points at hand.
-

Not maintaining a vehicle correctly is vehicle abuse, so it is very
much the
point in question.

I also see that you can't answer the direct question asked about your
'automotive engineering friends' ?...


I have read this thread and anyone who states that synthetic oil is
snake oil is half mad


If you read what is said and the context you will see that I'm calling it
snake oil were it's use is not required and / or beneficial, many people do
as you do and use synthetic oil due to the marketing hype - the use of fully
synthetic oil in a 850 (pre BMW) Mini is totally pointless and thus anyone
suggesting (like you and your alto-egos do) that people should use it are
doing nothing but pushing snake oil.

- Porsche, and others, have it in from new, so

Yes, because those engines are high performance and are designed to use such
oil.

maybe they have been conned by sythetic snake oil too. It is best not
to bother with this sort of disjointed, scattered, incoherrent ranting
and rambling. Only on the Internet you find this type, or shouting the
"end of the world is nigh" along Oxford St.


The only person who does that sort of thing is you IMM, probably due to not
being able to follow a debate - the only debate you are able to put into
practise is that of mass-debating....


Here is a cut and paste of a posting of mine in December:

So a synthetic oil is not necessarily 100%
synthetic, nor is it necessarily
better than a mineral based oil.


I totally disagree with that, so would just about every tribologist. I
have been using synthetic oils for about 15 years and there is no
comparison to mineral oils. the engine always has that newness feel
and sound to it. I started using it after visiting an oil research
centre on business, where the techies there explained it all and said
all cars should have fully synthetic and it is foolish not to for the
protection it gives. They take a long time to break down and the shear
(resistance to compression) is phenomenal compared to mineral.


Interesting how certain phrases keep cropping up in both the messages from
'top gear' and those of "Doctor Evil" [aka Dr Drivel aka IMM]....


  #84   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Capitol wrote:
What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even
longer oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking
about. Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or
materials - are improving all the time, so there really is no need to
change oil more frequently than the maker's recommendation.

So use the maker's recommended oil and service intervals, and don't
thrash the engine until the oil is hot, and the engine will outlive
the rest of the car, in most cases.

Unfortunately, this is not the experience of the fleet users. They are
whingeing regularly about having to fit new engines at 40K miles when
extended oil changes are used.


********. Pretty well every 'fleet' car would still be under warranty -
so it would be the car makers who would be bleating.

There is a tendency for the fleet driver to never look under the
bonnet, so the fact that the oil has disappeared through the tailpipe
doesn't register, with unfortunate consequences.


I don't 'look under the bonnet' either - although I'm not a fleet driver -
my car warns of low oil level. But never has. It will happily run from one
(extended) oil change to the next without needing any oil added. Come to
that, my '84 150,000 mile Rover SD1 does too. But it has one oil change
per year, due to low use.

God help you if you buy one of these in the second hand
market! The main reason for extended oil change intervals is to reduce
the servicing costs as a marketing bull point.


With vastly more expensive oils, etc?

Where are the longer lasting tyres? Batteries? Cambelts? Brake pads? Etc?

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #85   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
top gear wrote:
When the engine is started, stored hot water is injected into the
cylinder head giving instant warm up and heating inside the car,
avoiding any choke.


You need to update your 'automotive engineering friends'. Chokes haven't
been used in the UK for at least 10 years - even on the most basic of
cars. Better ones got rid of them 25 years ago.

--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #86   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
My automotive engineering friends, not
mechanics, say that Slick 50 in the gear box will prevent wear.


Do they also suggest magnets on the fuel line?


It's the IMM syndrome...

--
*Never kick a cow pat on a hot day *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #87   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
I have read this thread and anyone who states that synthetic oil is
snake oil is half mad


As usual, you haven't read the thread. The snake oil is an additive -
Slick 50. Or any others you care to name. Designed to separate money from
the gullible.

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #88   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

I don't 'look under the bonnet' either - although I'm not a fleet driver -
my car warns of low oil level.


Until the oil level sender unit fails....


  #89   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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top gear wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

top gear wrote:



Full synthetic oil is not snake oil. Its benefits over run of the mill
mineral oils is beyond question,


The point you are missing, is that whilst snake and full mineral oils
may well be better, are the standard and much cheaper oils GOOD
ENOUGH.



I'm not missing any point. I'm sure cheap mineral oils are "good enough",
and that is about it. It will stop the engine from seizing up. Of course all
oils are better than 1962 oils and that is not the point as I am comparing
the current crop available, comparing like with like. The original point I
made which I have to keep coming back to, as many here don't get it and fly
off on tangents about body panel rust or other unrelated matters, is how to
maintain the longevity of a drive train and the smooth newness feel and
sound.

It was simple, use the best oils, which just happen to be full synthetics
and change the gear oil at more frequent intervals. It is not overkill. It
is not oil only made for racing cars. It is thin at low temperatures and
gets to the bearings, especially the top end of an engine, in about a second
after the crank turns on a cold morning, which normal thick mineral oil will
not. It is very difficult to compress and keeps an engine very clean. It
prolongs a cat as an extra.


We are talking gearboxes, not engines here for a tart.

If you really want an engine to last use an oil compressor, available in the
USA, so only available here by mail order from the US. It maintains oil
compression in a vessel. When the crank starts it spurts the oil right
through the galleries to the dry bearings, far faster than the oil pump can
do. Also use a thermos bottle. Used on the US version of the Toyota Prius
and was used on a SAAB model. It retains heat from the coolant. When the
engine is started, stored hot water is injected into the cylinder head
giving instant warm up and heating inside the car, avoiding any choke.




  #90   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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top gear wrote:

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in
:

It is very difficult to

compress and keeps an engine very clean. It prolongs a cat as an
extra.

If you really want an engine to last use an oil compressor, available
in the USA, so only available here by mail order from the US. It
maintains oil compression in a vessel. When the crank starts it spurts
the oil right through the galleries to the dry bearings, far faster
than the oil pump can do.


Sorry, I think that I have lost it here. You buy synthetic oil which is
"very difficult to compress". Then you buy an oil compressor to compress
this "very difficult to compress" oil? Is that right?



It keeps oil compressed in a container, so that when the crank moves oil is
injected into the galleries. Overnight the oil runs down into the sump
leaving the galleries and engine upper end dry. That is one reason why most
engine wear is in the start/warm up stages.


That's because ******* like you think this kniowledge was doscovered
yesterday, and never ran engines with pressure gauges.

The rest of us know not to gun an engine at the startup.

And take the first 10 miles easy till the oil is up to temp.

LOT cheaper than snake oil and add on goodies.




  #91   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
top gear wrote:

Full synthetic oil is not snake oil.



No one here has said it is.


Its benefits over run of the mill mineral oils is beyond question, and I
have no intention of going down the synthetic vs mineral argument.



No one here is arguing this either - although the main benefits of
synthetic are longer service life. Not better lubrication than other oils
when both are performing within spec.


My automotive engineering friends, not mechanics, say that Slick 50 in
the gear box will prevent wear. I believe them. :-)



Now you're into snake oil. There is no truly independant evidence that any
aftermarket oil additives improve the performance of good quality oil.
And equally as much that it may actually cause damage. And any *true*
engineer would agree with this.


Its [prefectlty true that a racing box with a lot of power going through
it and with every gram of friction slowing the car down, will benefit
from an oil that is low viscosity, yet keeps its properties at high
temperatures.

However normal peope tend to drive to a cost benefit equation. I gave up
highly tuned small engines tgat tharshed themsleves and their boixes to
bits: As someone remarked once to me ' a big old chugger on an auto box
is always a good second hand buy. You can't cane em and they rev less
and still give good power, and they are dirt cheap., You can buy a lot
pof pertrol for the amount you save on purchase'

The number one influence on machanical life is how you treat the
mechanics in your driving. The number two is keeping everything
lubricated. With waht is not nearly as important as doing it regularly.

What oil you use is simply crappo chequebook engineering and marketing.
For 99.99% of ordinary drivers it makes **** all difference except to
their wallets.





Slick 50 g/box treatment is not a one off treatment like the engine
version. It has to be in at all times.



True ********. You are IMM and I claim my 5 pounds.


No, but a similar species, born under the same stone.

  #92   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Capitol wrote:

What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even
longer oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking
about. Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or
materials - are improving all the time, so there really is no need to
change oil more frequently than the maker's recommendation.

So use the maker's recommended oil and service intervals, and don't
thrash the engine until the oil is hot, and the engine will outlive
the rest of the car, in most cases.


Unfortunately, this is not the experience of the fleet users. They are
whingeing regularly about having to fit new engines at 40K miles when
extended oil changes are used.



********. Pretty well every 'fleet' car would still be under warranty -
so it would be the car makers who would be bleating.


Its not unusual to find a fleet car that has 60k on the clock and has
never had its oil cap even removed. Nor any servicing wahstosver done on
it at all.

The *******s simply run em trade em like that.

If you are lucky, someone tipped in a couple of pints at 50k miles when
the warning light came on.



There is a tendency for the fleet driver to never look under the
bonnet, so the fact that the oil has disappeared through the tailpipe
doesn't register, with unfortunate consequences.



I don't 'look under the bonnet' either - although I'm not a fleet driver -
my car warns of low oil level. But never has. It will happily run from one
(extended) oil change to the next without needing any oil added. Come to
that, my '84 150,000 mile Rover SD1 does too. But it has one oil change
per year, due to low use.


God help you if you buy one of these in the second hand
market! The main reason for extended oil change intervals is to reduce
the servicing costs as a marketing bull point.



With vastly more expensive oils, etc?

Where are the longer lasting tyres? Batteries? Cambelts? Brake pads? Etc?


49,000 miels on my landroiver tyres and still on originals.
No cambelt to speak off - chain.
Brake pads. I think its had a set.
Still on original battery.


  #93   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

We are talking gearboxes, not engines here for a tart.


I am not recommending engines for ladies of the night.


  #94   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
top gear wrote:

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...


It keeps oil compressed in a container, so that when the crank moves oil

is
injected into the galleries. Overnight the oil runs down into the sump
leaving the galleries and engine upper end dry. That is one reason why

most
engine wear is in the start/warm up stages.


That's because ******* like you


This group breeds them!

The rest of us know not to gun an engine at the startup.

And take the first 10 miles easy till the oil is up to temp.

LOT cheaper than snake oil and add on goodies.


Another one who can't get a simple point. The point is when all the oil has
drained into the sump and out of the galleries and bearings and the crank is
turned to start the engine. This is when there is maximum wear as the
bearings are dry except for a residual film of oil. This device ensures oil
is at the bearings before the crank moves any significant distance. Using
thinner, stronger synthetics, ensures easy movement of oil around the engine
maintaining the oil pressure where it matters.

Ships engines prime the oil before the crank is moved. The oil is up to
pressure and the engine up to temperature before start up.

Wear occurs when metal surfaces touch each other. Synthetics ensure they are
kept apart, far more than what mineral oils can, that is why the wear factor
is far less with synthetic oils.

I feel as if I am saying the same things over and over in each post, so as
far as I am concerned this thread is over.


  #95   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
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Synthetics are also available for older thicker oil engines. There
is no such thing as engines designed not to use it, as it will do
all engines.


Actually, you can get problems with air cooled engines that are not designed
for it. Mobil (I think) formulated a fully synthetic oil for aviation
reciprocating engines. Unfortunately, not long after release, they started
having lots of reported failures. The majority of light aircraft engines are
air cooled, which usually means the oil gets to a higher temperature and is
required to work somewhat harder. Coupled with this, the engines run on a
highly leaded fuel, which the synthetic oil had trouble with, as it was
unable to clean the lead away. I have no idea if the same issues would
affect air cooled road engines, like older VWs and Porsches, especially if
they run on unleaded. However, there most definitely are some engines that
can't use synthetics safely.

OTOH, I agree that for a water cooled engine, anything other than a fully
synthetic oil is complete folly.

Christian.




  #96   Report Post  
Member
 
Posts: 45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitol
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even longer
oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking about.
Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or materials - are
improving all the time, so there really is no need to change oil more
frequently than the maker's recommendation.

So use the maker's recommended oil and service intervals, and don't thrash
the engine until the oil is hot, and the engine will outlive the rest of
the car, in most cases.

Unfortunately, this is not the experience of the fleet users. They are
whingeing regularly about having to fit new engines at 40K miles when
extended oil changes are used.
My nephew ran a largish fleet of Cavaliers about 14 years ago. The drivers regularly trashed the camshafts. They would start up on -3 in the morning and rev like mad and tear out of the car park. Many were so dumb, they would rev staright to 4,000 revs thinking it would warm the engine up faster. All it did was ruin the engine in the process. I suggested he try some Mobil 1 at the first service. In those days, I thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup. He said he would have a go and get them to change the oil at an early stage, as it would cost him nothing. The service agent would bend over backwards to keep the luctrative service business. Not one camshaft failed after he started using Mobil 1 in the cars. He thought it was wonderful as a car down for a day or two or three meant needless stress all around.
  #97   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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top gear wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

We are talking gearboxes, not engines here for a tart.



I am not recommending engines for ladies of the night.


Sorry it was all teh references to 'whining' and 'IMM' that implied the
word 'tart' in my subconscious....
  #98   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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top gear wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

top gear wrote:


"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
.. .



It keeps oil compressed in a container, so that when the crank moves oil


is

injected into the galleries. Overnight the oil runs down into the sump
leaving the galleries and engine upper end dry. That is one reason why


most

engine wear is in the start/warm up stages.


That's because ******* like you



This group breeds them!


The rest of us know not to gun an engine at the startup.

And take the first 10 miles easy till the oil is up to temp.

LOT cheaper than snake oil and add on goodies.



Another one who can't get a simple point. The point is when all the oil has
drained into the sump and out of the galleries and bearings and the crank is
turned to start the engine. This is when there is maximum wear as the
bearings are dry except for a residual film of oil. This device ensures oil
is at the bearings before the crank moves any significant distance. Using
thinner, stronger synthetics, ensures easy movement of oil around the engine
maintaining the oil pressure where it matters.

Ships engines prime the oil before the crank is moved. The oil is up to
pressure and the engine up to temperature before start up.

Wear occurs when metal surfaces touch each other. Synthetics ensure they are
kept apart, far more than what mineral oils can, that is why the wear factor
is far less with synthetic oils.

I feel as if I am saying the same things over and over in each post, so as
far as I am concerned this thread is over.



Thats because you don';t realise that
(a) everybody already knows the above and

(b) has assesses that in fact, unless you are a tosser, it makes very
little difference to engine life.

(c) we are talking about gerqaboxes, which very very seldom have oil
pumps attached.
  #99   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"top gear" wrote in message
...

snip

Wear occurs when metal surfaces touch each other. Synthetics ensure they

are
kept apart, far more than what mineral oils can, that is why the wear

factor
is far less with synthetic oils.


The trouble with that is, there are components that require metal to metal
contact to work, it is far to simplistic to say bung Synthetics in and all
the problems go.


I feel as if I am saying the same things over and over in each post, so as
far as I am concerned this thread is over.


It's over because you know that you have been spouting marketing clap and
that the real world doesn't work the same way as that of the marketing world
were everything is black or white and never grey...


  #100   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
snip

OTOH, I agree that for a water cooled engine, anything other than a fully
synthetic oil is complete folly.


That is the most stupid thing said so far, only engines that are designed to
use synthetic oil need it, all the others will operate quite happily on what
they were designed to work with, be that mineral, corn oil, water, or indeed
one of the synthetic oils.




  #101   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

OTOH, I agree that for a water cooled engine, anything other than a fully
synthetic oil is complete folly.

Christian.


Someone with sense on this thread at last, and this is the final post on it
from me.


  #102   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"top gear" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

OTOH, I agree that for a water cooled engine, anything other than a

fully
synthetic oil is complete folly.


Someone with sense on this thread at last, and this is the final post on

it
from me.


It only makes sense if you are a believer in marketing hype and not fact -
FACT.


  #103   Report Post  
Tim S
 
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:27:38 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


I don't 'look under the bonnet' either - although I'm not a fleet driver -
my car warns of low oil level.


Is that "Low oil level" or "Low oil pressure". Only if it's the latter
and more traditional warning light, when it comes on, you have about 2PSI
or less of oil pressure and you are now knackering your engine at an
alarmingly fast rate.

Tim
  #104   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
news

Capitol Wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:-
What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even
longer
oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking about.
Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or materials -
are
improving all the time, so there really is no need to change oil more
frequently than the maker's recommendation.

So use the maker's recommended oil and service intervals, and don't
thrash
the engine until the oil is hot, and the engine will outlive the rest
of
the car, in most cases.
-
Unfortunately, this is not the experience of the fleet users. They are
whingeing regularly about having to fit new engines at 40K miles when
extended oil changes are used.


My nephew ran a largish fleet of Cavaliers about 14 years ago. The
drivers regularly trashed the camshafts. They would start up on -3 in
the morning and rev like mad and tear out of the car park. Many were so
dumb, they would rev staright to 4,000 revs thinking it would warm the
engine up faster. All it did was ruin the engine in the process. I
suggested he try some Mobil 1 at the first service. In those days, I
thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup. He said
he would have a go and get them to change the oil at an early stage, as
it would cost him nothing. The service agent would bend over backwards
to keep the luctrative service business. Not one camshaft failed after
he started using Mobil 1 in the cars. He thought it was wonderful as a
car down for a day or two or three meant needless stress all around.


It was very common, almost to common a fault back, IIRC Vauxhall had to do
some work on the engine design, now the engines run quite happily on the
recommended oils. Again IIRC it wasn't a case of the wrong lubricants but no
lubricants that caused the problems, it would not have nattered what oil was
being used....


  #105   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
I don't 'look under the bonnet' either - although I'm not a fleet
driver - my car warns of low oil level.


Until the oil level sender unit fails....


Well, yes. However, perhaps most decent modern cars in good condition and
driven sympathetically will do one oil change to the next without needing
oil added. Of course with a car new to you you should monitor oil usage in
the traditional way - even if fitted with a sensor - and get a 'feel' as
to the consumption.

--
*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #106   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Unfortunately, this is not the experience of the fleet users. They are
whingeing regularly about having to fit new engines at 40K miles when
extended oil changes are used.



********. Pretty well every 'fleet' car would still be under warranty -
so it would be the car makers who would be bleating.


Its not unusual to find a fleet car that has 60k on the clock and has
never had its oil cap even removed. Nor any servicing wahstosver done on
it at all.


The *******s simply run em trade em like that.


If you are lucky, someone tipped in a couple of pints at 50k miles when
the warning light came on.


Then 'extended' oil change intervals have no effect at all?

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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  #107   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
top gear wrote:
I feel as if I am saying the same things over and over in each post, so
as far as I am concerned this thread is over.


Thank gawd. Now go and peddle your snake oil elsewhere.

--
*A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her

Dave Plowman London SW
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  #108   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
In those days, I
thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup.


You think wrong. 1,500 mile servicing went out many, many, years before
OHV Cavaliers.

--
*It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser.

Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
My nephew ran a largish fleet of Cavaliers about 14 years ago.


snip

I suggested he try some Mobil 1 at the first service.


Why would a pro take advice from an amateur? Or have you changed your tune?

--
*Speak softly and carry a cellular phone *

Dave Plowman London SW
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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Tim S wrote:
I don't 'look under the bonnet' either - although I'm not a fleet
driver - my car warns of low oil level.


Is that "Low oil level" or "Low oil pressure". Only if it's the latter
and more traditional warning light, when it comes on, you have about 2PSI
or less of oil pressure and you are now knackering your engine at an
alarmingly fast rate.


Oil *level*. Both my cars have sensors for this - and one is 20 years old.
Of course with any car new to you, you should monitor oil levels in the
traditional way and get a feel for how much it does or does not use.

But the days of checking *all* fluid levels have long since gone - unless
you're very keen. ;-)

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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  #111   Report Post  
Tim S
 
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:46:46 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
I don't 'look under the bonnet' either - although I'm not a fleet
driver - my car warns of low oil level.


Is that "Low oil level" or "Low oil pressure". Only if it's the latter
and more traditional warning light, when it comes on, you have about
2PSI or less of oil pressure and you are now knackering your engine at
an alarmingly fast rate.


Oil *level*. Both my cars have sensors for this - and one is 20 years old.
Of course with any car new to you, you should monitor oil levels in the
traditional way and get a feel for how much it does or does not use.


Ah. Never seen one, but I buy cheap 2nd hand cars anyway. That as in they
were cheap when they were new, and then I bought them 2nd hand.


But the days of checking *all* fluid levels have long since gone - unless
you're very keen. ;-)


I always check before a long run - occasionally I've had cause to bung 1/2
pt in the engine. Often though, I've been caught out by sudden failure on
the most important 3 fluids rather than significant gradual loss.

1) Fiat 131, brake line fractured, lost 1/2 the fluid and brakes. That was
a *lovely* new years day, freezing my n*ds off in the cold road forming
and fitting a new one.

2) Maestro, blew the oil pressure sender, bing, zero oil. Fortunately in a
car park so no engine damage.

3) Daewoo, driving home, steam everywhere. Water pump bearing seal gone.
1/4 mile from home, so limped it back.

Remember the bit about "cheap 2nd hand..."

Tim
  #112   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

snip

If you are lucky, someone tipped in a couple of pints at 50k miles when
the warning light came on.


Then 'extended' oil change intervals have no effect at all?


But it does, as there is more to servicing than just changing the engine
oil, I've seen far more dangerous faults since 'annual / 12k' service came
in than I used to see at the old twice a year '6 month / 6k' service
intervals.


  #113   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
In those days, I
thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup.


You think wrong. 1,500 mile servicing went out many, many, years before
OHV Cavaliers.


Actually *if* IMM is referring to the first dealer check after PDI and
delivery then he might well be correct in stating 1,500 miles - this was
often described as a 'Free Service' or 'First Service' in the service
history book.


  #114   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Tim S wrote:
But the days of checking *all* fluid levels have long since gone -
unless you're very keen. ;-)


I always check before a long run - occasionally I've had cause to bung
1/2 pt in the engine.


I don't tend to top up oil. Assuming it can go the distance without
dropping below minimum. But I always change on time and use good quality
oil.

Of course, if I were doing a track day where the maximum quantity might
aid cooling etc, I'd then make sure it was full. But would probably then
change it before such arduous use - and again afterwards. ;-)

Often though, I've been caught out by sudden failure on the most
important 3 fluids rather than significant gradual loss.


Yup. So a sensor is likely to provide *more* protection than routine
checking - provided it works. ;-)

1) Fiat 131, brake line fractured, lost 1/2 the fluid and brakes. That
was a *lovely* new years day, freezing my n*ds off in the cold road
forming and fitting a new one.


2) Maestro, blew the oil pressure sender, bing, zero oil. Fortunately in
a car park so no engine damage.


3) Daewoo, driving home, steam everywhere. Water pump bearing seal gone.
1/4 mile from home, so limped it back.


Remember the bit about "cheap 2nd hand..."


I really think many have forgotten - or don't realise - just how reliable
modern cars are if given half a chance.
At one time I never left home without a toolkit and most common spares -
like fan belts, hoses, etc.
Now, I can't be bothered, and don't have RAC membership etc either. Even
punctures are more rare these days.
Those that go on about being able to fix a simple car by the roadside
clearly don't remember that you often had to. ;-)

--
*A snooze button is a poor substitute for no alarm clock at all *

Dave Plowman London SW
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  #115   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
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"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Synthetics are also available for older thicker oil engines. There
is no such thing as engines designed not to use it, as it will do
all engines.


Actually, you can get problems with air cooled engines that are not

designed
for it. Mobil (I think) formulated a fully synthetic oil for aviation
reciprocating engines. Unfortunately, not long after release, they started
having lots of reported failures. The majority of light aircraft engines

are
air cooled, which usually means the oil gets to a higher temperature and

is
required to work somewhat harder. Coupled with this, the engines run on a
highly leaded fuel, which the synthetic oil had trouble with, as it was
unable to clean the lead away. I have no idea if the same issues would
affect air cooled road engines, like older VWs and Porsches, especially if
they run on unleaded. However, there most definitely are some engines that
can't use synthetics safely.


The suthetic ouil can handle the higher temperatures. The problem was most
certainly the lead in the fuel.

OTOH, I agree that for a water cooled engine, anything other than a fully
synthetic oil is complete folly.


Very true, but the trolling idiots here will say it's snake oil.



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  #116   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
In those days, I
thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup.


You think wrong. 1,500 mile servicing went out many, many, years before
OHV Cavaliers.


Actually *if* IMM is referring to the first dealer check after PDI and
delivery then he might well be correct in stating 1,500 miles - this was
often described as a 'Free Service' or 'First Service' in the service
history book.


Well, if anyone was thrashing a car before this they should expect it to
fail in a big way, if it was using 'running in' oil. As should anyone who
thrashes a car before the oil is up to temperature even *after* it's run
in.

I've got even less time than those with no mechanical sympathy than those
who think that pouring in a tin of heavily advertised expensive ****e
makes their engine or gearbox last forever. Because they're fools. Like
IMM, who believes every advert.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
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  #117   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
In those days, I
thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup.

You think wrong. 1,500 mile servicing went out many, many, years

before
OHV Cavaliers.


Actually *if* IMM is referring to the first dealer check after PDI and
delivery then he might well be correct in stating 1,500 miles - this was
often described as a 'Free Service' or 'First Service' in the service
history book.


Well, if anyone was thrashing a car before this they should expect it to
fail in a big way, if it was using 'running in' oil. As should anyone who
thrashes a car before the oil is up to temperature even *after* it's run
in.


That is what the company car drivers do. That is what the point was. Duh!!!

I've got even less time than those with no mechanical sympathy than those
who think that pouring in a tin of heavily advertised expensive ****e
makes their engine or gearbox last forever. Because they're fools. Like
IMM, who believes every advert.


I never said pour in "****e", whatever that is. I said use fully synthetic
oils as all the sensible people here have all said. Read what I write
regarding the oil research lab. They told and showed me all about it.

Please keep using cheap lousy oil, as you need too. Be my guest and please
use the cheapest oil you can find, the very cheapest of the cheapest, and
leave it in for 30,000 miles. You need to do this, you really do. This I'm
sure will give you great satisfaction.




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  #118   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
In those days, I
thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup.

You think wrong. 1,500 mile servicing went out many, many, years

before
OHV Cavaliers.


Actually *if* IMM is referring to the first dealer check after PDI and
delivery then he might well be correct in stating 1,500 miles - this

was
often described as a 'Free Service' or 'First Service' in the service
history book.


Well, if anyone was thrashing a car before this they should expect it to
fail in a big way, if it was using 'running in' oil. As should anyone

who
thrashes a car before the oil is up to temperature even *after* it's run
in.


That is what the company car drivers do. That is what the point was.

Duh!!!

The real point is, doing that to an engine that is still running in it won't
matter what frigging oil is used, it will still kill the engine.


I've got even less time than those with no mechanical sympathy than

those
who think that pouring in a tin of heavily advertised expensive ****e
makes their engine or gearbox last forever. Because they're fools. Like
IMM, who believes every advert.


I never said pour in "****e", whatever that is. I said use fully synthetic
oils as all the sensible people here have all said. Read what I write
regarding the oil research lab. They told and showed me all about it.


Yeh, but who were paying their salaries, Mobil ?

You are the one missing the point, there is no need (or point in some cases)
to use an oil that is in excess to what the engine has been designed to
use - otherwise you are implying that the recommended oil is unsuitable -
funny how so few seize up though...


  #119   Report Post  
Member
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by :::Jerry::::
"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote in message
...
In article
,
:::Jerry::::
wrote:
In those days, I
thing there was a 1,500 mile service, or walk around checkup.

You think wrong. 1,500 mile servicing went out many, many, years

before
OHV Cavaliers.


Actually *if* IMM is referring to the first dealer check after PDI and
delivery then he might well be correct in stating 1,500 miles - this

was
often described as a 'Free Service' or 'First Service' in the service
history book.


Well, if anyone was thrashing a car before this they should expect it to
fail in a big way, if it was using 'running in' oil. As should anyone

who
thrashes a car before the oil is up to temperature even *after* it's run
in.


That is what the company car drivers do. That is what the point was.

Duh!!!

The real point is, doing that to an engine that is still running in it won't
matter what frigging oil is used, it will still kill the engine.


I've got even less time than those with no mechanical sympathy than

those
who think that pouring in a tin of heavily advertised expensive ****e
makes their engine or gearbox last forever. Because they're fools. Like
IMM, who believes every advert.


I never said pour in "****e", whatever that is. I said use fully synthetic
oils as all the sensible people here have all said. Read what I write
regarding the oil research lab. They told and showed me all about it.


Yeh, but who were paying their salaries, Mobil ?
** snip total amaturish drivel **
  #120   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Well, if anyone was thrashing a car before this they should expect it
to fail in a big way, if it was using 'running in' oil. As should
anyone who thrashes a car before the oil is up to temperature even
*after* it's run in.


That is what the company car drivers do. That is what the point was.
Duh!!!


Then all company cars would need replacement engines, etc, early in their
lives. Before the warranty ran out. Which would stop makers selling to
fleets hat heavily discounted prices, as they'd loose money.

I've got even less time than those with no mechanical sympathy than
those who think that pouring in a tin of heavily advertised expensive
****e makes their engine or gearbox last forever. Because they're
fools. Like IMM, who believes every advert.


I never said pour in "****e", whatever that is. I said use fully
synthetic oils as all the sensible people here have all said. Read what
I write regarding the oil research lab. They told and showed me all
about it.


They 'told' you? Methinks you're even more off with the fairies than usual.

Please keep using cheap lousy oil, as you need too. Be my guest and
please use the cheapest oil you can find, the very cheapest of the
cheapest, and leave it in for 30,000 miles. You need to do this, you
really do. This I'm sure will give you great satisfaction.


Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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