UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

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  #41   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Tim S wrote:

I replaced it with (I forget the exact brand) a synthetic gearoil with a
low viscosity/temperature variation, and it was impressively improved.

The
gearbox had suffered over the years, but it worked perfectly well for
several years afterwards until everything else fell off and I traded it

in.

I had a problem with the syncro on second gear graunching when selecting
at over 40mph (changing up or down). Had a chat with the bods who
service it etc, and they said that Shell had developed a gear oil that
was supposed to fix this problem and suggested I give that a try. Went
for a quick gearbox oil change, and it was like a miracle fix - it
restored perfect operation immediately and it has remained that way for
the last 65k miles. It was IIRC, "Shell Gear Oil S". It was about 10
quid a litre mind you!

--
Cheers,

John.


I think the S may have stood for synthetic. It may have been replaced by
Spirax GSX or ASX gear oils. I would check with the Shell technical
department first to be sure.

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?...ml/iwgen/zzz_l
hn.html&FC3=/global/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/spirax/product_page
s/spirax_gsx_asx_ga_0209.html


  #42   Report Post  
top gear
 
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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...

"StealthUK" wrote in message
oups.com...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
A few tears ago I had a boss who had a passat that had done

200,000km
-
I supoose about 160k miles?

Ordinary oil, changed by the book, and it was fine.

Depends on how the car is driven and even 200k miles on modern engines
is nothing amazing these days. I'd rather go by the condition of the
oil than stick to manufacturer's recommendations.

Regards additives, I believe most of the stuff on the market is a

waste
of space but Slick50 engine oil additive isn't a bad product. I've

used
it and noticed engine noise was reduced, especially during start-up,
with no adverse effects. No idea about the gearbox stuff, never used
it.


It is true that cars can go long mileages without any major work. My

point
was that using Mobil 1 in the engine and g/box and Slick 50 g/box, and

the
change intervals I suggested, the engine and transmission is still as

smooth
as a new one, even after 100K miles. I have come across cars that have
really clocked up the miles with the usual roughness after 70K. The

original
post was about roughness. I suggested how to maintain longevity and
smoothness, which actually does work. My design engineer friends says

that
modern engines are designed to be smooth to 50K miles with normal

servicing
and decent oil, and some engines deteriorate rapidly in smoothness after
that figure. He recommends fully synthetic oils.


REGULAR OIL CHANGES WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT, it doesn't matter what the
oil is, as long as it is the correct spec' for the engine.


The oil does matter. The best available is fully synthetics like Mobil 1 and
Shell Helix fully synthetics. These oils are much superior to normal mineral
oils in just about every aspect. This is a know fact that is not open to
question.

I can't comment on Slick 50 engine treatment as I have never used it. As

I
looked after the engines and transmissions from new using the best oils
available, I have never experienced roughness to say that something

added
stops it.


And I have known vehicles that have gone 150.000 plus miles on nothing

more
than the makers recommended oils whilst being changed on or before the
advised service intervals for the vehicles use.


I am not disputing that. It is maintaining the smoothness and newness feel
for as long as possible that is the point being made by me.

Wonder were IMM is ?....





  #43   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...

"StealthUK" wrote in message
oups.com...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
A few tears ago I had a boss who had a passat that had done

200,000km
-
I supoose about 160k miles?

Ordinary oil, changed by the book, and it was fine.

Depends on how the car is driven and even 200k miles on modern

engines
is nothing amazing these days. I'd rather go by the condition of the
oil than stick to manufacturer's recommendations.

Regards additives, I believe most of the stuff on the market is a

waste
of space but Slick50 engine oil additive isn't a bad product. I've

used
it and noticed engine noise was reduced, especially during start-up,
with no adverse effects. No idea about the gearbox stuff, never used
it.

It is true that cars can go long mileages without any major work. My

point
was that using Mobil 1 in the engine and g/box and Slick 50 g/box, and

the
change intervals I suggested, the engine and transmission is still as

smooth
as a new one, even after 100K miles. I have come across cars that have
really clocked up the miles with the usual roughness after 70K. The

original
post was about roughness. I suggested how to maintain longevity and
smoothness, which actually does work. My design engineer friends says

that
modern engines are designed to be smooth to 50K miles with normal

servicing
and decent oil, and some engines deteriorate rapidly in smoothness

after
that figure. He recommends fully synthetic oils.


REGULAR OIL CHANGES WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT, it doesn't matter what

the
oil is, as long as it is the correct spec' for the engine.


The oil does matter. The best available is fully synthetics like Mobil 1

and
Shell Helix fully synthetics. These oils are much superior to normal

mineral
oils in just about every aspect. This is a know fact that is not open to
question.


So why are they not specified by the people who design / make the engines ?

IMM, you were proved wrong the last time you spouted this marketing bollox
and you will be proved wrong again.


I can't comment on Slick 50 engine treatment as I have never used it.

As
I
looked after the engines and transmissions from new using the best

oils
available, I have never experienced roughness to say that something

added
stops it.


And I have known vehicles that have gone 150.000 plus miles on nothing

more
than the makers recommended oils whilst being changed on or before the
advised service intervals for the vehicles use.


I am not disputing that. It is maintaining the smoothness and newness feel
for as long as possible that is the point being made by me.


And you are wrong, or are you in fact disputing what I said above ?!


Wonder were IMM is ?....



To answer my own question, he seems to have morphed again :~(


  #44   Report Post  
top gear
 
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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...

"StealthUK" wrote in message
oups.com...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
A few tears ago I had a boss who had a passat that had done

200,000km
-
I supoose about 160k miles?

Ordinary oil, changed by the book, and it was fine.

Depends on how the car is driven and even 200k miles on modern

engines
is nothing amazing these days. I'd rather go by the condition of

the
oil than stick to manufacturer's recommendations.

Regards additives, I believe most of the stuff on the market is a

waste
of space but Slick50 engine oil additive isn't a bad product. I've

used
it and noticed engine noise was reduced, especially during

start-up,
with no adverse effects. No idea about the gearbox stuff, never

used
it.

It is true that cars can go long mileages without any major work. My

point
was that using Mobil 1 in the engine and g/box and Slick 50 g/box,

and
the
change intervals I suggested, the engine and transmission is still

as
smooth
as a new one, even after 100K miles. I have come across cars that

have
really clocked up the miles with the usual roughness after 70K. The
original
post was about roughness. I suggested how to maintain longevity and
smoothness, which actually does work. My design engineer friends

says
that
modern engines are designed to be smooth to 50K miles with normal
servicing
and decent oil, and some engines deteriorate rapidly in smoothness

after
that figure. He recommends fully synthetic oils.

REGULAR OIL CHANGES WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT, it doesn't matter what

the
oil is, as long as it is the correct spec' for the engine.


The oil does matter. The best available is fully synthetics like Mobil 1

and
Shell Helix fully synthetics. These oils are much superior to normal

mineral
oils in just about every aspect. This is a know fact that is not open to
question.


So why are they not specified by the people who design / make the engines

?

The makers specify an API rating. It is on the side of the can, Some makes
do specify synthetic oils.

IMM, you were proved wrong the last time you spouted this marketing bollox
and you will be proved wrong again.


You have me mixed up with someone else, and you are not the first on this
news group to do so.



I can't comment on Slick 50 engine treatment as I have never used

it.
As
I
looked after the engines and transmissions from new using the best

oils
available, I have never experienced roughness to say that something

added
stops it.


And I have known vehicles that have gone 150.000 plus miles on nothing

more
than the makers recommended oils whilst being changed on or before the
advised service intervals for the vehicles use.


I am not disputing that. It is maintaining the smoothness and newness

feel
for as long as possible that is the point being made by me.


And you are wrong, or are you in fact disputing what I said above ?!


Wonder were IMM is ?....



To answer my own question, he seems to have morphed again :~(


Keep asking yourself questions then :-)



  #45   Report Post  
Tim \(Remove NOSPAM.
 
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"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:27:33 +0000 (UTC), "Rick Hughes"
wrote:


"Mark" wrote in message
.. .
Hi

I have a 10 year old Ford Escort with 92,000 miles on the clock. It's
served me well but I need to get another 12 months/15,000 miles out of
it before I replace it. Over the last 10,000 miles the gearbox has
started to whine, nothing major but the frequency is particularly
annoying, especially at motorway speeds. Is there any additive that
would make an improvement or have I got to live with it? A friend
suggested "molyslip", anyone tried this?
Thanks



Try a heavier oil in the box


OK, so how do I get the old oil out? There's no drain plug on this
model???


Reverse the car / van backwards up a slope to get the front of thr box lower
than the back. It helps if the box is nice and warm after a good run.

You can drain the oil through the plug with the extended nose below te
reverse light switch, however, ensure its in neutral first- this is the
reverse detent spring and rod as you say..

Un do and and withdraw the plug very slowly- you will release the springs
tension before the threads are fully clear and be ready to catch the rod /
spring as you withdraw the plug. Abit messy, but i used to do it this way on
many a cvh equiped mk3 in yesteryear.

Tim..





  #46   Report Post  
Grimly Curmudgeon
 
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It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "top gear"
saying something like:

From new, the gear oil should be dropped after 2K miles and replaced with
Mobil 1 fully synthetic gear oil. Replace every 2nd service, that is approx
every 2 years in most cars.


Renew gear oil every second service? What a load of toss. You can use
synthetic gear oil if you wish, but it's good for tens of thousands of
miles of use.


From new use Mobil 1, or similar, fully synthetic engine oil, and change as
per makers recommendations. The oil can go longer, so it gives you leeway on
service intervals. No one has a service 9K miles on the dot. No need to use
the likes of Slick 50 in the engine if fully synthetic oil is used from new.


Never use synthetic engine oil 'from new' as the thingymybobs won't bed
in right. Move onto sythetics at the second oil change.

Really, your advice is misleading ********.
--

Dave
  #47   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "top gear"
saying something like:

From new, the gear oil should be dropped after 2K miles and replaced with
Mobil 1 fully synthetic gear oil. Replace every 2nd service, that is

approx
every 2 years in most cars.


Renew gear oil every second service? What a load of toss. You can use
synthetic gear oil if you wish, but it's good for tens of thousands of
miles of use.


Well yes, about two tens, if you do it every second service. Some makes
change gear oil every 27,000 miles. Sealed for life is nonsense as the
original poster found out. So much for the makers idea of transmission
lubrication.


From new use Mobil 1, or similar, fully synthetic engine oil, and change

as
per makers recommendations. The oil can go longer, so it gives you leeway

on
service intervals. No one has a service 9K miles on the dot. No need to

use
the likes of Slick 50 in the engine if fully synthetic oil is used from

new.

Never use synthetic engine oil 'from new' as the thingymybobs won't bed
in right. Move onto sythetics at the second oil change.


Well after the run in, which obvious, well not some some, which is about
1,000 miles. You could drop the gear and engine oil at 2K miles, all at the
same time.

Really, your advice is misleading ********.


Say that to my auto design engineer friend and he may be tad amused.



  #48   Report Post  
John Rumm
 
Posts: n/a
Default

top gear wrote:

I think the S may have stood for synthetic. It may have been replaced by
Spirax GSX or ASX gear oils. I would check with the Shell technical
department first to be sure.

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?...ml/iwgen/zzz_l
hn.html&FC3=/global/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/spirax/product_page
s/spirax_gsx_asx_ga_0209.html


That seems to claim it is for truck axles...

It is possible the S stood for Subaru, IIRC they said it was an oil
specially formulated in collaboration with the manufacturer to fix a
problem with the gearbox on the Justy. A web search turns up a few pages
-mostly foreign language, but one here

http://www.actinia.si/client/index.p...articles&ID=48

lists a Gear Oil S and a "SL" - both mentioning Subaru.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

  #49   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"top gear" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

snip

So why are they not specified by the people who design / make the

engines
?

The makers specify an API rating. It is on the side of the can, Some makes
do specify synthetic oils.


I know that, but it doesn't answer the question as to why the makers don't
spec' full synthetic oils if their engines would benefit from the use of
such oils...


IMM, you were proved wrong the last time you spouted this marketing

bollox
and you will be proved wrong again.


You have me mixed up with someone else, and you are not the first on this
news group to do so.


Well, you certainly quack like him....


  #50   Report Post  
John Rumm
 
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:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Wonder were IMM is ?....



To answer my own question, he seems to have morphed again :~(


Don't think so, just look at the evidence: top gear can string together
a coherent sentence with comprehensible grammar, and use long words with
their correct meaning obviously understood, and he has not resorted to
snipping or insulting you yet... can't be IMM! ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/



  #51   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article .com,
StealthUK wrote:
The most important thing is that people use a decent quality oil and
check it regularly.


Absolutely. Which makes additives a waste of money. If an 'additive' was
needed, a decent quality oil would already have it.

--
*I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #52   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
I'd like to see some proof that this has any advantages at all. While it
may not cost much, IMHO it's just a waste of money and resources.


The point is, you are getting rid of impurities that otherwise have to be
filtered. If the oil still look clean, I will agree that there is little
point, but those cases are rare.


But oil is designed to hold some contaminates in suspension, so the colour
is nothing to go by. A diesel will have 'dirty' oil after the first start.

For it to be of any real benefit - and I dispute this - it would have
to be from when the vehicle is new, and how many keep a new car until
it's worn out?


Well, replacing a car just because it's X number of years old is what I
call a waste of money and resources !.. :~)


The waste of money for most is buying a *new* car of any type, given how
fast they lose money in the first year or so.

--
*I love cats...they taste just like chicken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #53   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
top gear wrote:
REGULAR OIL CHANGES WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT, it doesn't matter what
the oil is, as long as it is the correct spec' for the engine.


The oil does matter. The best available is fully synthetics like Mobil 1
and Shell Helix fully synthetics. These oils are much superior to normal
mineral oils in just about every aspect. This is a know fact that is not
open to question.


Only if your vehicle is designed for the longer service life of such oils.
Using them, and changing them at 'dino' intervals hasn't shown them to
have any advantages over a good quality non or semi synthetic.

--
*Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #54   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
top gear wrote:
Renew gear oil every second service? What a load of toss. You can use
synthetic gear oil if you wish, but it's good for tens of thousands of
miles of use.


Well yes, about two tens, if you do it every second service. Some makes
change gear oil every 27,000 miles. Sealed for life is nonsense as the
original poster found out. So much for the makers idea of transmission
lubrication.


IMM is alive and well.

--
*A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it uses up a thousand times more memory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #55   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
I'd like to see some proof that this has any advantages at all. While

it
may not cost much, IMHO it's just a waste of money and resources.


The point is, you are getting rid of impurities that otherwise have to

be
filtered. If the oil still look clean, I will agree that there is little
point, but those cases are rare.


But oil is designed to hold some contaminates in suspension, so the colour
is nothing to go by. A diesel will have 'dirty' oil after the first start.


And that contamination doesn't go else where, either via the pump or via
splash ?

Why do you think that oil is best drained when warm and thus more fluid....

What I'm saying is that rather than spend money on snake oil additives it
would be better to change the normal (recommended) oil more frequently
IYSWIM.




  #56   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
top gear wrote:

snip

Well yes, about two tens, if you do it every second service. Some makes
change gear oil every 27,000 miles. Sealed for life is nonsense as the
original poster found out. So much for the makers idea of transmission
lubrication.


IMM is alive and well.


Yes, talk of his Usenet death has been greatly exaggerated. :~(


  #57   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
top gear wrote:
REGULAR OIL CHANGES WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT, it doesn't matter what
the oil is, as long as it is the correct spec' for the engine.


The oil does matter. The best available is fully synthetics like Mobil 1
and Shell Helix fully synthetics. These oils are much superior to normal
mineral oils in just about every aspect. This is a know fact that is not
open to question.


Only if your vehicle is designed for the longer service life of such oils.
Using them, and changing them at 'dino' intervals hasn't shown them to
have any advantages over a good quality non or semi synthetic.


Ordinary mineral oils can be seriously degraded after 4K miles, while fully
synthetics will easily surpass the makers recommended change intervals with
only slight degradation, or none at all. Only a little research reveals
this. As I have said previously, this point is not open to question, it is
vox pop. Anyone saying the opposite usually has some financial gain
somewhere in order to do so.



  #58   Report Post  
Tim S
 
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On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:29:54 +0000, Doctor Evil wrote:

I might be able to look up the oil if anyones interested, but it wasn't
excessively expensive, just you won't get it in Halfords.

Tim


Yes, what make and grade?


IIRC (big if, this was like 10 years ago) it was probably Millers 75w90.

Think I got it at Cannons in Clapham, London, but that's a big if too as I
went there for many random things at that time.

Think I might have even used "proper" flushing oil, but it could just as
well been I stuck a couple of pints of diesel in the box and went for a
very light drive round the block.

Tim
  #59   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
But oil is designed to hold some contaminates in suspension, so the
colour is nothing to go by. A diesel will have 'dirty' oil after the
first start.


And that contamination doesn't go else where, either via the pump or via
splash ?


Why do you think that oil is best drained when warm and thus more
fluid....


What I'm saying is that rather than spend money on snake oil additives
it would be better to change the normal (recommended) oil more
frequently IYSWIM.


What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even longer
oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking about.
Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or materials - are
improving all the time, so there really is no need to change oil more
frequently than the maker's recommendation.

So use the maker's recommended oil and service intervals, and don't thrash
the engine until the oil is hot, and the engine will outlive the rest of
the car, in most cases.

--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #60   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
top gear wrote:
Ordinary mineral oils can be seriously degraded after 4K miles,


What modern car has 'ordinary' mineral oil as the maker's recommendation?
Or '4K' oil change intervals? And what fool would think of using a base
mineral oil in a modern car?

while fully synthetics will easily surpass the makers recommended change
intervals with only slight degradation, or none at all.


Err, if the maker recommends a fully synthetic, they'll also recommend an
'extended' change interval...

Only a little research reveals this.


Might do if you knew what you're talking about.

As I have said previously, this point is not open to question, it is vox
pop. Anyone saying the opposite usually has some financial gain
somewhere in order to do so.


Try reading this research accurately and applying it to the thread.
If you're not IMM, you're the new one.

--
*I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #61   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Tim S wrote:
Think I got it at Cannons in Clapham, London,


Used to be my favourite supplier. Sadly, they appear to have got rid of
most of the decent staff - and most of the customers too. Which came
first, I don't know.

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #62   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even longer
oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking about.
Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or materials - are
improving all the time, so there really is no need to change oil more
frequently than the maker's recommendation.

snip

You have to remember that makers have extended the service intervals to
appeal to the 'Fleet' / contract hire market, they don't actually care what
the mechanics are like post X [[1] mileage as the car will have gone though
the auction market by then in most cases.

anything from 12k to 50k in most cases


  #63   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even

longer
oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking about.
Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or materials - are
improving all the time, so there really is no need to change oil more
frequently than the maker's recommendation.

snip

You have to remember that makers have extended the service intervals to
appeal to the 'Fleet' / contract hire market, they don't actually care

what
the mechanics are like post X [[1] mileage as the car will have gone

though
the auction market by then in most cases.

anything from 12k to 50k in most cases


Very good point and hit the target. I did point out that cars are designed
to have a life of 50K miles before harshness is apparent using average grade
mineral oils. Use the best oils, full synthetics, in the engine and
transmission after run in, and change the transmission oil approx 20K miles
then the newness feel and sound of the drivetrain will stay for most of its
life. Service cost are designed to appeal to the company car market, who
ditch cars after 3 years maximum.

I find that in countries that do not have a company car culture, people are
more aware of using high quality lubricants in new cars as it protects their
expensive investment. Company car fleet runners in Britain don't care. In
Britain, anyone buying an ex fleet car expects the car to have been abused,
and the fleet market accounts for a considerbale share of the new car
market.


  #64   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even

longer
oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking about.
Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or materials - are
improving all the time, so there really is no need to change oil more
frequently than the maker's recommendation.

snip

You have to remember that makers have extended the service intervals to
appeal to the 'Fleet' / contract hire market, they don't actually care

what
the mechanics are like post X [[1] mileage as the car will have gone

though
the auction market by then in most cases.

anything from 12k to 50k in most cases


Very good point and hit the target. I did point out that cars are designed
to have a life of 50K miles before harshness is apparent using average

grade
mineral oils. Use the best oils, full synthetics, in the engine and
transmission after run in, and change the transmission oil approx 20K

miles
then the newness feel and sound of the drivetrain will stay for most of

its
life. Service cost are designed to appeal to the company car market, who
ditch cars after 3 years maximum.


You are missing the point, the same can be true even if the recommended oils
and change periods are used, it is also true that engines and transmissions
can fail even if the best oils are used, life of components has far more to
do with how the car is driven than what oil might or might not have been
used - keep trying to 'crash' through the gears and any transmission will
have it's life expectancy shortened.

Rather than spend extra money on expensive 'snake oils' you are just as
likely to improve the life expectancy of engine components by using the
recommended oils and just change them more frequently. I don't agree that a
gearbox that has been treated with respect needs it's oil changed to a (so
called) higher spec', the biggest wear points in any gearbox are the syncro
cones and as they use friction to do their job no oil or additive is going
to help - indeed some oils or additives can make things worse and thus cause
far more wear in other parts of the gearbox due to people trying to force
the syncro cones to engage rather than slip past each other...

Service (mileage / time period) points were changed to save servicing cost,
not due to improved components / oils as their is far more to a proper
service than changing oils and filters.


  #65   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
Default


":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

You are missing the point, the same can be true even if the recommended

oils
and change periods are used, it is also true that engines and

transmissions
can fail even if the best oils are used, life of components has far more

to
do with how the car is driven than what oil might or might not have been
used - keep trying to 'crash' through the gears and any transmission will
have it's life expectancy shortened.


The point is not vehicle abuse.

Rather than spend extra money on expensive 'snake oils' you are just as
likely to improve the life expectancy of engine components by using the
recommended oils and just change them more frequently.


Some people seem to think that makers only recommend cheap mineral oils
unless otherwise stated. That is not the case. Makers recommend a viscosity
and API rating. Some poor oils may meet that and most high quality full
synthetics meet and exceed the API by a long way. The difference in quality
and protection of the oils at each end of the price scale is marked.

Full synthetic oil is not snake oil. Its benefits over run of the mill
mineral oils is beyond question, and I have no intention of going down the
synthetic vs mineral argument. My automotive engineering friends, not
mechanics, say that Slick 50 in the gear box will prevent wear. I believe
them. :-) Slick 50 g/box treatment is not a one off treatment like the
engine version. It has to be in at all times.

I don't agree that a gearbox that has been treated with respect needs it's
oil changed to a (so called) higher spec',


You put the spec in the makers say. It is the quality of the oil that
counts. Full synthetics are miles ahead of mineral oils. I don't believe
that a gearbox is sealed for life, unless it has an oil filtration system
and full synthetic from new. Gear oil "does" deteriorate with use, that is
certain. Some makers specify changes at 27K miles, about every 3rd service
or roughly 3 years. Changing at every 2nd service and using the best
synthetics is very, very wise to keep that smooth newness for the majority
of the cars life. It does work, I assure you.





  #66   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
top gear wrote:

I think the S may have stood for synthetic. It may have been replaced by
Spirax GSX or ASX gear oils. I would check with the Shell technical
department first to be sure.


http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?...ml/iwgen/zzz_l

hn.html&FC3=/global/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/spirax/product_page
s/spirax_gsx_asx_ga_0209.html


That seems to claim it is for truck axles...


The viscosity is clearly for cars too.

Spirax GSX 75W-80 API GL-4/
Spirax ASX 75W-90 API GL-5/

It is possible the S stood for Subaru, IIRC they said it was an oil
specially formulated in collaboration with the manufacturer to fix a
problem with the gearbox on the Justy. A web search turns up a few pages
-mostly foreign language, but one here

http://www.actinia.si/client/index.p...articles&ID=48

lists a Gear Oil S and a "SL" - both mentioning Subaru.


Interesting.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/



  #67   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
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"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

You are missing the point, the same can be true even if the recommended

oils
and change periods are used, it is also true that engines and

transmissions
can fail even if the best oils are used, life of components has far more

to
do with how the car is driven than what oil might or might not have been
used - keep trying to 'crash' through the gears and any transmission

will
have it's life expectancy shortened.


The point is not vehicle abuse.


Yes it is. If a vehicle is not abused it will rust away before the
mechanical (engine / transmission) parts wear out even if only serviced as
per the makers recommendations.


Rather than spend extra money on expensive 'snake oils' you are just as
likely to improve the life expectancy of engine components by using the
recommended oils and just change them more frequently.


Some people seem to think that makers only recommend cheap mineral oils
unless otherwise stated. That is not the case. Makers recommend a

viscosity
and API rating. Some poor oils may meet that and most high quality full
synthetics meet and exceed the API by a long way. The difference in

quality
and protection of the oils at each end of the price scale is marked.


You are talking marketing clap-trap and you know it, if the recommended oils
are use the vehicle is good these days for at least 100,000 plus miles and
with some makes engines and transmisions will achieve thos mileages even if
those recomondations are not kept to.

I expect you also believe that using aero-spec air / water hoses improves
performance, or that simply fitting a K&N filter boosted performance....


Full synthetic oil is not snake oil. Its benefits over run of the mill
mineral oils is beyond question, and I have no intention of going down the


synthetic vs mineral argument.


No, because you will loose that argument at every point, also full synthetic
oil is most certainly snake oil when people advise it's use in engines that
are not designed to need it.

My automotive engineering friends, not
mechanics, say that Slick 50 in the gear box will prevent wear. I believe
them. :-) Slick 50 g/box treatment is not a one off treatment like the
engine version. It has to be in at all times.


So what do they do, design engines, gearboxes, body-shells, doors, seats,
dash-boards, just what is their expertise that allows them to make an across
the board statement like that and if they are correct why don't their fellow
engineers specify it's use in the factory service documents ?...


I don't agree that a gearbox that has been treated with respect needs

it's
oil changed to a (so called) higher spec',


You put the spec in the makers say.


That is what I've been saying you don't need slick-50 or any other snake
oil, just what the unit has been designed to use !

It is the quality of the oil that
counts. Full synthetics are miles ahead of mineral oils. I don't believe
that a gearbox is sealed for life, unless it has an oil filtration system
and full synthetic from new. Gear oil "does" deteriorate with use, that is
certain. Some makers specify changes at 27K miles, about every 3rd service
or roughly 3 years.


Oh and that's why they don't fit drain plugs then - to make life easy when
they expect the oil to be drained....

Changing at every 2nd service and using the best
synthetics is very, very wise to keep that smooth newness for the majority
of the cars life. It does work, I assure you.


You carry on wasting your money on 'snake oils' then, those with 1/2 a brain
will use what the components has been designed to use, be that mineral, semi
synthetic or fully synthetic along with any additives. If these snake oil
additives were so good why doesn't the oil companies include them in their
oil blends anyway and why don't the vehicle designers specify their use
?.... Ho, hummmm !


  #68   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
Default


":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

You are missing the point, the same can be true even if the

recommended
oils
and change periods are used, it is also true that engines and

transmissions
can fail even if the best oils are used, life of components has far

more
to
do with how the car is driven than what oil might or might not have

been
used - keep trying to 'crash' through the gears and any transmission

will
have it's life expectancy shortened.


The point is not vehicle abuse.


Yes it is.


If you read the thread you will find it is not. I read the rest of your post
and it is clear you should focus on the points at hand.



  #69   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

You are missing the point, the same can be true even if the

recommended
oils
and change periods are used, it is also true that engines and
transmissions
can fail even if the best oils are used, life of components has far

more
to
do with how the car is driven than what oil might or might not have

been
used - keep trying to 'crash' through the gears and any transmission

will
have it's life expectancy shortened.

The point is not vehicle abuse.


Yes it is.


If you read the thread you will find it is not. I read the rest of your

post
and it is clear you should focus on the points at hand.


Not maintaining a vehicle correctly is vehicle abuse, so it is very much the
point in question.

I also see that you can't answer the direct question asked about your
'automotive engineering friends' ?...


  #70   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
Default


":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...
I also see that you can't answer the direct question asked about your
'automotive engineering friends' ?...


Engines, transmission and engine management systems for the large auto
makers, like Ford, Rover, GM, Renault, and the rest. A lot of the design
work of the large companies is farmed out to specialists. They know their
stuff.





  #71   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"top gear" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"top gear" wrote in message
...
I also see that you can't answer the direct question asked about your
'automotive engineering friends' ?...


Engines, transmission and engine management systems for the large auto
makers, like Ford, Rover, GM, Renault, and the rest. A lot of the design
work of the large companies is farmed out to specialists. They know their
stuff.


So they are electronic engineers [1] then, hardly qualified to comment on
oils !...

[1] anything from full design engineers to PCB CAD operators to equipment
case designers etc.


  #72   Report Post  
Member
 
Posts: 45
Default

I have read this thread and anyone who states that synthetic oil is snake oil is half mad - Porsche, and others, have it in from new, so maybe they have been conned by sythetic snake oil too. It is best not to bother with this sort of disjointed, scattered, incoherrent ranting and rambling. Only on the Internet you find this type, or shouting the "end of the world is nigh" along Oxford St.

Here is a cut and paste of a posting of mine in December:

So a synthetic oil is not necessarily 100%
synthetic, nor is it necessarily
better than a mineral based oil.

I totally disagree with that, so would just about every tribologist. I have been using synthetic oils for about 15 years and there is no comparison to mineral oils. the engine always has that newness feel and sound to it. I started using it after visiting an oil research centre on business, where the techies there explained it all and said all cars should have fully synthetic and it is foolish not to for the protection it gives. They take a long time to break down and the shear (resistance to compression) is phenomenal compared to mineral.
  #73   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default

top gear wrote:



Full synthetic oil is not snake oil. Its benefits over run of the mill
mineral oils is beyond question,


The point you are missing, is that whilst snake and full mineral oils
may well be better, are the standard and much cheaper oils GOOD ENOUGH.
Just about any modern oil - synthetic, mineral or whatever - exceeds
the sort of crap we used to chuck in a mini transaxle in the 60's, and
just about any gearbox is built to better tolerances with better a seals
and out of better materials.

All gear oil has to do is keep teh shear faces of teh gears apart under
stress. The more stress, teh more critical teh oil has to be, and teh
hiotter the box gets, teh more crirtical.

So obviously a top notch gear oil that won't break down at high temps in
say a rally car, is good news, but in boxes not under that sort of
stress, its very arguable whether it makes any difference whatsoever.

Modern teeth are much better hardened, and modern seals are much better
organised.




  #74   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even
longer oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking
about. Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or
materials - are improving all the time, so there really is no need to
change oil more frequently than the maker's recommendation.

snip


You have to remember that makers have extended the service intervals to
appeal to the 'Fleet' / contract hire market, they don't actually care
what the mechanics are like post X [[1] mileage as the car will have
gone though the auction market by then in most cases.


In which case engines would be failing earlier than before due to oil
related problems. This simply *isn't* the case. They last longer than
ever. Failures like cambelts and head gaskets excepted.
Strange the way some think that oil changes are a major cost in a car but
ignore cambelt changes which in some cases can cost hundreds.

anything from 12k to 50k in most cases


The servicing costs over 50k miles is peanuts compared to the deprecation.

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #75   Report Post  
Capitol
 
Posts: n/a
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What I'm saying is that engines last longer and longer despite even longer
oil change intervals. Ie, the makers know what they're talking about.
Both oils and engine manufacturing techniques - and or materials - are
improving all the time, so there really is no need to change oil more
frequently than the maker's recommendation.

So use the maker's recommended oil and service intervals, and don't thrash
the engine until the oil is hot, and the engine will outlive the rest of
the car, in most cases.

Unfortunately, this is not the experience of the fleet users. They are
whingeing regularly about having to fit new engines at 40K miles when
extended oil changes are used. There is a tendency for the fleet driver
to never look under the bonnet, so the fact that the oil has disappeared
through the tailpipe doesn't register, with unfortunate consequences.
God help you if you buy one of these in the second hand market! The main
reason for extended oil change intervals is to reduce the servicing
costs as a marketing bull point. Jerry and the Americans are correct,
change the oil very regularly, and you get good engine life with almost
any engine oil under normal driving conditions. I've seen much greater
than 100K miles on a Ford Popular 1200cc van used in London, the oil
was sae10 and changed every 1K miles. Normal engine life with 6K mile
oil changes was about 50K IIRC. Before the point is made that it's a low
performance engine, I would add that I've also experienced 150k miles
on a 2.7L Honda engine run on bog standard reclaimed 20/50 but changed
every 5K miles.

Regards
Capitol


  #76   Report Post  
top gear
 
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
top gear wrote:



Full synthetic oil is not snake oil. Its benefits over run of the mill
mineral oils is beyond question,


The point you are missing, is that whilst snake and full mineral oils
may well be better, are the standard and much cheaper oils GOOD
ENOUGH.


I'm not missing any point. I'm sure cheap mineral oils are "good enough",
and that is about it. It will stop the engine from seizing up. Of course all
oils are better than 1962 oils and that is not the point as I am comparing
the current crop available, comparing like with like. The original point I
made which I have to keep coming back to, as many here don't get it and fly
off on tangents about body panel rust or other unrelated matters, is how to
maintain the longevity of a drive train and the smooth newness feel and
sound.

It was simple, use the best oils, which just happen to be full synthetics
and change the gear oil at more frequent intervals. It is not overkill. It
is not oil only made for racing cars. It is thin at low temperatures and
gets to the bearings, especially the top end of an engine, in about a second
after the crank turns on a cold morning, which normal thick mineral oil will
not. It is very difficult to compress and keeps an engine very clean. It
prolongs a cat as an extra.

If you really want an engine to last use an oil compressor, available in the
USA, so only available here by mail order from the US. It maintains oil
compression in a vessel. When the crank starts it spurts the oil right
through the galleries to the dry bearings, far faster than the oil pump can
do. Also use a thermos bottle. Used on the US version of the Toyota Prius
and was used on a SAAB model. It retains heat from the coolant. When the
engine is started, stored hot water is injected into the cylinder head
giving instant warm up and heating inside the car, avoiding any choke.




  #77   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
Posts: n/a
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In article ,
top gear wrote:
Full synthetic oil is not snake oil.


No one here has said it is.

Its benefits over run of the mill mineral oils is beyond question, and I
have no intention of going down the synthetic vs mineral argument.


No one here is arguing this either - although the main benefits of
synthetic are longer service life. Not better lubrication than other oils
when both are performing within spec.

My automotive engineering friends, not mechanics, say that Slick 50 in
the gear box will prevent wear. I believe them. :-)


Now you're into snake oil. There is no truly independant evidence that any
aftermarket oil additives improve the performance of good quality oil.
And equally as much that it may actually cause damage. And any *true*
engineer would agree with this.

Slick 50 g/box treatment is not a one off treatment like the engine
version. It has to be in at all times.


True ********. You are IMM and I claim my 5 pounds.

--
*I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #78   Report Post  
Rod Hewitt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"top gear" wrote in
:

It is very difficult to
compress and keeps an engine very clean. It prolongs a cat as an
extra.

If you really want an engine to last use an oil compressor, available
in the USA, so only available here by mail order from the US. It
maintains oil compression in a vessel. When the crank starts it spurts
the oil right through the galleries to the dry bearings, far faster
than the oil pump can do.


Sorry, I think that I have lost it here. You buy synthetic oil which is
"very difficult to compress". Then you buy an oil compressor to compress
this "very difficult to compress" oil? Is that right?

Is synthetic oil any less compressible than 'ordinary' oil?

(As a Saab driver, I am used to using orange gnat's ****. Works fine.
Labelled Saab so I guess that it must be recommended by them.)

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk
  #79   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
"top gear" wrote in
:

It is very difficult to
compress and keeps an engine very clean. It prolongs a cat as an
extra.

If you really want an engine to last use an oil compressor, available
in the USA, so only available here by mail order from the US. It
maintains oil compression in a vessel. When the crank starts it spurts
the oil right through the galleries to the dry bearings, far faster
than the oil pump can do.


Sorry, I think that I have lost it here. You buy synthetic oil which is
"very difficult to compress". Then you buy an oil compressor to compress
this "very difficult to compress" oil? Is that right?


It keeps oil compressed in a container, so that when the crank moves oil is
injected into the galleries. Overnight the oil runs down into the sump
leaving the galleries and engine upper end dry. That is one reason why most
engine wear is in the start/warm up stages.

Is synthetic oil any less compressible than 'ordinary' oil?


Very difficult to compress

(As a Saab driver, I am used to using orange gnat's ****. Works fine.
Labelled Saab so I guess that it must be recommended by them.)


If it is very runny, it is probably synthetic.

Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk



  #80   Report Post  
Peter Parry
 
Posts: n/a
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:18:43 -0000, "top gear"
wrote:

My automotive engineering friends, not
mechanics, say that Slick 50 in the gear box will prevent wear.


Do they also suggest magnets on the fuel line?

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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