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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Problems sharpening chisels
Yes, I'm having problems sharpening my chisels to 30°. The basic problem
seems to me to be that my sharpening stone is far far too fine. It's in perfect condition, but is probably quite a lot older than me and is marked "Bauxilite 479 Medium". Bauxilite is of course the abrasive material, I've managed to figure that one out, but the number is meaningless and "Medium" is a very subjective term. I have some brand new chisels to sharpen, already ground to 25° but blunt, and some old ones which due to years of horrible mistreatment really could do with regrinding to 25° before I grind them to 30°. The last time I was taught how to sharpen a chisel, it was at school back in the early 1960's, and we had a motor-driven grinding wheel, using water as a lubricant, with a clamp so you could get just the right angle on the thing. I do not have such a thing at home, just a bench-mounted grinder with no means of clamping, plus the aforementioned sharpening stone. I ought to mention that I have a little gizmo into which I can clamp a chisel or plane blade at just the right angle, and then roll it backwards and forwards over the sharpening stone. That seems to do what it is supposed to do, only it takes forever to grind the tiniest amount off the blade - Zzzzzzzzzzzz. I once allowed one of these door-to-door chappies to regrind some chisels on his grinding wheel in his van, and he basically wrecked them! Never again... Before I roam the local DIY and tools stores, any advice? -- Rick |
#2
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Problems sharpening chisels
"Richard Sterry" wrote in message ... Yes, I'm having problems sharpening my chisels to 30°. The basic problem seems to me to be that my sharpening stone is far far too fine. It's in perfect condition, but is probably quite a lot older than me and is marked "Bauxilite 479 Medium". Bauxilite is of course the abrasive material, I've managed to figure that one out, but the number is meaningless and "Medium" is a very subjective term. I have some brand new chisels to sharpen, already ground to 25° but blunt, and some old ones which due to years of horrible mistreatment really could do with regrinding to 25° before I grind them to 30°. The last time I was taught how to sharpen a chisel, it was at school back in the early 1960's, and we had a motor-driven grinding wheel, using water as a lubricant, with a clamp so you could get just the right angle on the thing. I do not have such a thing at home, just a bench-mounted grinder with no means of clamping, plus the aforementioned sharpening stone. I ought to mention that I have a little gizmo into which I can clamp a chisel or plane blade at just the right angle, and then roll it backwards and forwards over the sharpening stone. That seems to do what it is supposed to do, only it takes forever to grind the tiniest amount off the blade - Zzzzzzzzzzzz. I once allowed one of these door-to-door chappies to regrind some chisels on his grinding wheel in his van, and he basically wrecked them! Never again... Before I roam the local DIY and tools stores, any advice? -- Rick Get a perfectly flat piece of board or thick glass, stick a sheet of emery paper (about 180 grit to start) to the board and use your rolling guide to bring the basic edge to visible, then use progressively smoother sheets till you have a "scary sharp" chisel. You can go to an absolute mirror, razor edge if like. mrcheerful |
#3
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Problems sharpening chisels
Get a belt sander. They are cheap enough these days. Just a cheapo will
do, beware the price of replacement abrasives though. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
#4
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Problems sharpening chisels
Michael Mcneil wrote:
Get a belt sander. They are cheap enough these days. Just a cheapo will do, beware the price of replacement abrasives though. Can you get wet n' dry belts? I've not seen anything finer than 120 grit for mine. -- Toby. 'One day son, all this will be finished' |
#5
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Problems sharpening chisels
Richard Sterry typed:
Yes, I'm having problems sharpening my chisels to 30°. The basic problem seems to me to be that my sharpening stone is far far too fine. got one of these http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=6732 grinds to a perfect angle, then a quick hone on a fine stone for a perfect edge. |
#6
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Problems sharpening chisels
mrcheerful wrote:
Get a perfectly flat piece of board or thick glass, stick a sheet of emery paper (about 180 grit to start) to the board and use your rolling guide to bring the basic edge to visible, then use progressively smoother sheets till you have a "scary sharp" chisel. You can go to an absolute mirror, razor edge if like. Simple, and cheap - I like it! Rick |
#7
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Sun, 2 May 2004 20:14:28 +0100, "Richard Sterry"
wrote: Yes, I'm having problems sharpening my chisels to 30°. The basic problem seems to me to be that my sharpening stone is far far too fine. It's in perfect condition, but is probably quite a lot older than me and is marked "Bauxilite 479 Medium". Bauxilite is of course the abrasive material, I've managed to figure that one out, but the number is meaningless and "Medium" is a very subjective term. I have some brand new chisels to sharpen, already ground to 25° but blunt, and some old ones which due to years of horrible mistreatment really could do with regrinding to 25° before I grind them to 30°. snip Before I roam the local DIY and tools stores, any advice? Yep. Treat yourself to a Tormek machine These are a low speed, water cooled grindstone which can be graded as required for different operations. www.tormek.se Which is an excellent web site explaining how it all works. You can sharpen virtually anything on one of these - chisels, gouges, plane blades, knives, scissors,..... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#8
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Problems sharpening chisels
Andy Dingley wrote: I'd suggest "scary sharp" (Google for heaps of information). But use silicon carbide (wet and dry) rather than emery. I really must try our 8000 "grit" diamond polishing machine for final finishing.... Niel. |
#9
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Problems sharpening chisels
Mark wrote:
got one of these http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=6732 grinds to a perfect angle, then a quick hone on a fine stone for a perfect edge. Looks a handy bit of kit. Presumably you need to clamp the power drill in some way - is this critical in any way, as I don't have any proper mount other than a vertical drillstand. Can I just clamp the thing in a a Workmate for example? Rick |
#10
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Problems sharpening chisels
In article ,
Richard Sterry wrote: Looks a handy bit of kit. Martek stuff usually does. It's the pretty colours. Unfortunately, it doesn't live up to its looks. Presumably you need to clamp the power drill in some way - is this critical in any way, as I don't have any proper mount other than a vertical drillstand. Can I just clamp the thing in a a Workmate for example? I wouldn't bother. To sharpen anything accurately requires a rigid relationship angle wise between the work piece and stone, and on these plastic things this just doesn't happen. -- *If I worked as much as others, I would do as little as they * Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#11
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Problems sharpening chisels
Andy Hall wrote:
Treat yourself to a Tormek machine These are a low speed, water cooled grindstone which can be graded as required for different operations. www.tormek.se Which is an excellent web site explaining how it all works. You can sharpen virtually anything on one of these - chisels, gouges, plane blades, knives, scissors,..... Mmmmmm, looks a really nice bit of kit, but seems like we are talking close to £200 with a few jigs and by the time VAT and carriage are added on. I would find it hard to justify that sort of outlay - shame! Thanks Rick |
#12
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Mon, 3 May 2004 10:10:07 +0100, "Richard Sterry"
wrote: Andy Hall wrote: Treat yourself to a Tormek machine These are a low speed, water cooled grindstone which can be graded as required for different operations. www.tormek.se Which is an excellent web site explaining how it all works. You can sharpen virtually anything on one of these - chisels, gouges, plane blades, knives, scissors,..... Mmmmmm, looks a really nice bit of kit, but seems like we are talking close to £200 with a few jigs and by the time VAT and carriage are added on. I would find it hard to justify that sort of outlay - shame! Thanks Rick I know. I've built up quite a large collection of chisels over the years and several Lie-Nielsen planes. When I thought about the cost of these and tried out a Tormek, I was able to convince myself :-) It does the job pretty quickly as well...... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#13
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Problems sharpening chisels
Andy Hall wrote:
I know. I've built up quite a large collection of chisels over the years and several Lie-Nielsen planes. When I thought about the cost of these and tried out a Tormek, I was able to convince myself :-) It does the job pretty quickly as well...... Keep talking. ;-) Rick |
#14
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Problems sharpening chisels
Richard Sterry wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: I know. I've built up quite a large collection of chisels over the years and several Lie-Nielsen planes. When I thought about the cost of these and tried out a Tormek, I was able to convince myself :-) It does the job pretty quickly as well...... Keep talking. ;-) I have had a Tormek for six years now. I would not be without it and support what Andy has said. In addition, if you have a power planer or thicknesser, you can sharpen the blades and keep them in balance (mind you, the jig for this is expensive). The cost? It has more than paid for itself (including every jig Tormek makes). It does such a good job that others bring me their blades to sharpen. -- Howard Neil |
#15
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Problems sharpening chisels
Yes, I'm having problems sharpening my chisels to 30°. The basic problem
seems to me to be that my sharpening stone is far far too fine. It's in perfect condition, but is probably quite a lot older than me and is marked "Bauxilite 479 Medium". Bauxilite is of course the abrasive material, I've managed to figure that one out, but the number is meaningless and "Medium" is a very subjective term. I have some brand new chisels to sharpen, already ground to 25° but blunt, and some old ones which due to years of horrible mistreatment really could do with regrinding to 25° before I grind them to 30°. snip Before I roam the local DIY and tools stores, any advice? If the stone is too fine you need a coarser stone - seems obvious to me. For grinding I use either a belt sander with 60 grit, or an angle grinder with a grinding wheel not a cutting wheel. I then hone on a stone with bike oil thinned a bit with white spirit. The stone is 30 years or more old bought from Woolworths for 5 bob or something. I somtimes use a honing guide to get the angle perfect but then do it by eye for re-touching. The most important thing with an oil stone (after getting the grade right) is to wipe it clean immediately after using it and to put the lid back on. Then It will never clog up or need cleaning. cheers Jacob |
#16
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Problems sharpening chisels
"Richard Sterry" wrote in message ... Yes, I'm having problems sharpening my chisels to 30°. The basic problem seems to me to be that my sharpening stone is far far too fine. It's in perfect condition, but is probably quite a lot older than me and is marked "Bauxilite 479 Medium". Bauxilite is of course the abrasive material, I've managed to figure that one out, but the number is meaningless and "Medium" is a very subjective term. I have some brand new chisels to sharpen, already ground to 25° but blunt, and some old ones which due to years of horrible mistreatment really could do with regrinding to 25° before I grind them to 30°. The last time I was taught how to sharpen a chisel, it was at school back in the early 1960's, and we had a motor-driven grinding wheel, using water as a lubricant, with a clamp so you could get just the right angle on the thing. I do not have such a thing at home, just a bench-mounted grinder with no means of clamping, plus the aforementioned sharpening stone. I ought to mention that I have a little gizmo into which I can clamp a chisel or plane blade at just the right angle, and then roll it backwards and forwards over the sharpening stone. That seems to do what it is supposed to do, only it takes forever to grind the tiniest amount off the blade - Zzzzzzzzzzzz. I once allowed one of these door-to-door chappies to regrind some chisels on his grinding wheel in his van, and he basically wrecked them! Never again... Before I roam the local DIY and tools stores, any advice? Assuming you aren't yet in your dotage and just maybe you might still have some contact however tenuous with your old school perhaps you might be allowed to use the aforementioned grinding stone with water lube? |
#17
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Problems sharpening chisels
I have had a Tormek for six years now. I would not be without it
As a rather casual woodworker I'd find the cost/space hard to justify, but Wickes and others do chinese bench grinders with a normal speed wheel at one end and a wide, geared down, water cooled one at the other. Around £30: surely a much better buy than the drill attachment thingy. I use the normal grinder as much as the whetstone, but the latter is OK for the 30 degree chisel cleanup and then I use the "stanley" guide tool for the final 25 degree hone on a normal stone. |
#18
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Problems sharpening chisels
Screwfix sell a two-wheel grinder - one high speed wheel as normal, but the second wheel rotates considerably slower and has a water bath. Not too dear and seems to produce satisfactory results for me.* I have (somewhere) one of the Martek gizmos. I screwed it to a bit of timber along with an otherwise redundant brown B+D drilling machine. Again the results were satisfactory - razor sharp edges but at a fixed angle. Also the wheel is too narrow for sharpening 1" chisels. This is overcome by rocking the chisel carrier back and forth across the rotating wheel, which seems to work. This may also allow the edge to cool as you are not holding the tool constantly against the wheel. I also have a Martex drill sharpener which was surprisingly effective; it came with a series of wheels, collets to suit different drill sizes and, most impressive of all, collars which held the drill/collet assembly at the correct angle for different drill types. Rgds Richard * just looked at the current brochure and can't find my grinder - what does that tell us?? (But I think that I have seen it elsewhere B+Q??). However, they do have a 'wet stone grinder' for £90 17162-73 R |
#19
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Problems sharpening chisels
OldScrawn wrote:
I have had a Tormek for six years now. I would not be without it As a rather casual woodworker I'd find the cost/space hard to justify, but Wickes and others do chinese bench grinders with a normal speed wheel at one end and a wide, geared down, water cooled one at the other. Around £30: surely a much better buy than the drill attachment thingy. I use the normal grinder as much as the whetstone, but the latter is OK for the 30 degree chisel cleanup and then I use the "stanley" guide tool for the final 25 degree hone on a normal stone. I think you got the angles the wrong way round, but I take your point. It has become clear to me that the stone I was using was far too fine, so I nipped down to the DIY store this morning, and bought a double-sided Stanley one plus the guide. This is definitely a lot better, and I have managed to put a passable (nothing spectacular) edge on the smaller sized chisels in both sets. (I have a decent set purely for woodworking, and a grotty set for abusing.*) However, I still cannot get a decent edge on the larger widths - I am always left with a very neat but slightly blunt edge which is clearly being renewed all the time rather than me simply not grinding off enough metal. I am puzzled why this happens with the wider chisels and not the narrower ones. * I ground off one particularly abused narrow chisel at 25°, followed by finishing off at 30°, and it's come up quite well. Rick |
#20
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Sun, 02 May 2004 23:13:22 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote: Treat yourself to a Tormek machine OK for rough grinding, but they won't sharpen a chisel and their price is ridiculous. If you really want a powered wet cylinder, look at the much cheaper Record machines I'd suggest "scary sharp" (Google for heaps of information). But use silicon carbide (wet and dry) rather than emery. -- Smert' spamionam |
#21
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Problems sharpening chisels
John wrote:
Assuming you aren't yet in your dotage and just maybe you might still have some contact however tenuous with your old school perhaps you might be allowed to use the aforementioned grinding stone with water lube? Alas, no, otherwise we wouldn't be having this 'conversation'! I'm not in my dotage, but I did leave said school before flares came into fashion (the first time)! :-) Rick |
#22
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Problems sharpening chisels
jacob wrote:
If the stone is too fine you need a coarser stone - seems obvious to me. Yup - dealt with that , (see separate posting). For grinding I use either a belt sander with 60 grit, or an angle grinder with a grinding wheel not a cutting wheel. I then hone on a stone with bike oil thinned a bit with white spirit. The stone is 30 years or more old bought from Woolworths for 5 bob or something. I somtimes use a honing guide to get the angle perfect but then do it by eye for re-touching. The most important thing with an oil stone (after getting the grade right) is to wipe it clean immediately after using it and to put the lid back on. Then It will never clog up or need cleaning. The problem for me is that I need to remove the skill element from this process, because basically I don't possess any. Someone who 'has the knack', could probably do a better job than I could, just using the back doorstep asa stone! Rick |
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#25
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Problems sharpening chisels
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Sun, 02 May 2004 23:13:22 +0100, Andy Hall wrote: Treat yourself to a Tormek machine OK for rough grinding, but they won't sharpen a chisel and their price is ridiculous. If you really want a powered wet cylinder, look at the much cheaper Record machines If, when using a Tormek, you cannot get a chisel sharp enough to shave with, then it is you that is doing something wrong. The same really applies to any method of sharpening (or to any machine). The difference is in the time taken and the skill required to achieve the required sharpness. Where the Tormek is very good is in the range of jigs available. These jigs allow a wide range of blades to be sharpened with great accuracy (particularly planer/thicknesser blades). -- Howard Neil |
#26
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Problems sharpening chisels
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#27
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Mon, 03 May 2004 13:53:56 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote: On Sun, 02 May 2004 23:13:22 +0100, Andy Hall wrote: Treat yourself to a Tormek machine OK for rough grinding, but they won't sharpen a chisel and their price is ridiculous. Rubbish. Have you actually used a Tormek machine? If you haven't been able to achieve at least as good as the scary sharp technique then you are doing something wrong. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#28
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Mon, 3 May 2004 15:30:13 +0100, Paul Mc Cann
wrote: About once a year SWMBO gets her tongue, whoops, knives, and scissors sharpened What's it worth not to tell her that you said that ? :-) ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#29
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Mon, 03 May 2004 18:10:23 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote: Rubbish. Have you actually used a Tormek machine? Of course. As wet wheel machines, they're pretty good. Although their stones could be better and the price really is ridiculous. If you haven't been able to achieve at least as good as the scary sharp technique then you are doing something wrong. So how does one flatten the back of a chisel using a Tormek ? I can do the bevel in a few minutes by any technique you like. It's getting the backs flat that takes the time. -- Smert' spamionam |
#30
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Problems sharpening chisels
"Toby" wrote in message
Can you get wet n' dry belts? Don't be silly. They use garnet paper and I am not sure what the finest grade for them is. Take that up with the salesperson. They do a lovely job on an axe. Can't really say much about chisels and plane blades with them though. I just have a bench grinder and a stone. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
#31
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Problems sharpening chisels
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mon, 03 May 2004 18:10:23 +0100, Andy Hall wrote: Rubbish. Have you actually used a Tormek machine? Of course. As wet wheel machines, they're pretty good. Although their stones could be better and the price really is ridiculous. If you haven't been able to achieve at least as good as the scary sharp technique then you are doing something wrong. So how does one flatten the back of a chisel using a Tormek ? I can do the bevel in a few minutes by any technique you like. It's getting the backs flat that takes the time. That is simplicity itself. You use the side of the wheel. Very quick and very efficient. When the blade is sharp, you can then strop it on the leather wheel and make it even better (I have a couple of chisels that I have given a mirrored finish to). -- Howard Neil |
#32
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Mon, 03 May 2004 20:15:19 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote: On Mon, 03 May 2004 18:10:23 +0100, Andy Hall wrote: Rubbish. Have you actually used a Tormek machine? Of course. As wet wheel machines, they're pretty good. Although their stones could be better and the price really is ridiculous. I'm happy with mine on both counts. If you haven't been able to achieve at least as good as the scary sharp technique then you are doing something wrong. So how does one flatten the back of a chisel using a Tormek ? You use the side, as the makers recommend. Then use the leather wheel to finish. I also have the 2005 model which has a larger diameter wheel than the 1000 series... I can do the bevel in a few minutes by any technique you like. It's getting the backs flat that takes the time. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#33
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Mon, 03 May 2004 22:45:14 +0100, Howard Neil
wrote: It's getting the backs flat that takes the time. That is simplicity itself. You use the side of the wheel. Very quick and very efficient. I said flat, not conical. This approach isn't good enough for a well sharpened chisel. Even a vertical axis wheel isn't especially flat, unless you true it frequently. ( OK so it's probably a bit academic, as most of my chisels are forged hollow on the back anyway.) |
#34
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Problems sharpening chisels
On Sun, 2 May 2004 22:52:18 +0100, "Toby"
wrote: Can you get wet n' dry belts? I've not seen anything finer than 120 grit for mine. Yes. Try CSM abrasives for weird abrasives. If they don't offer it from stock, they'll make it. Although typical "wet and dry" backing is too stiff to make a good belt, silicon carbide grit (the black stuff) makes a lot of sense on a belt grinder. -- Smert' spamionam |
#35
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Problems sharpening chisels
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mon, 03 May 2004 22:45:14 +0100, Howard Neil wrote: It's getting the backs flat that takes the time. That is simplicity itself. You use the side of the wheel. Very quick and very efficient. I said flat, not conical. This approach isn't good enough for a well sharpened chisel. Even a vertical axis wheel isn't especially flat, unless you true it frequently. Read what I said again. The side of the wheel is flat on a Tormek stone and runs true. Since you only flatten surfaces with the side of the wheel, there is not reason for it to become grooved. Have you really used a Tormek or are you just jumping to conclusions? -- Howard Neil |
#36
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Problems sharpening chisels
It's getting the backs flat that takes the time.
That is simplicity itself. You use the side of the wheel. Very quick and very efficient. I always amazed at the difficulties people have with the simplest things - especially when they try and do them with a machine. You do not ever need to grind, hone or otherwise disturb the back of a chisel unless it's pitted with rust , or seriously bent (not possible with a good quality chisel). However you do need to remove the wire edge after honing. This is done by holding the chisel flat on an oilstone and moving it about a bit. It takes about 2seconds. cheers Jacob |
#37
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Problems sharpening chisels
Andy Dingley wrote:
Although typical "wet and dry" backing is too stiff to make a good belt, silicon carbide grit (the black stuff) makes a lot of sense on a belt grinder. Cheers. Must say that regular hand sharpening on a stone is the only way to go, grandfather who passed down chisels would not be impressed with all this talk of wheels and belts. -- Toby. 'One day son, all this will be finished' |
#38
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Problems sharpening chisels
"Toby" wrote in message
Cheers. Must say that regular hand sharpening on a stone is the only way to go, grandfather who passed down chisels would not be impressed with all this talk of wheels and belts. It isn't and he would. I use a stone as I have to keep my stuff sharp on site. Setting a sander up to give the edges it does is not practical. Your grandad would have loved them. Except the carbide that is. He knew all about the problems using that stuff on wood. I rather suppose you mean his great grandfather by the way. And he too would not have used wet and dry on bare wood. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
#39
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Problems sharpening chisels
jacob wrote:
I always amazed at the difficulties people have with the simplest things - especially when they try and do them with a machine. You do not ever need to grind, hone or otherwise disturb the back of a chisel unless it's pitted with rust , or seriously bent (not possible with a good quality chisel). However you do need to remove the wire edge after honing. This is done by holding the chisel flat on an oilstone and moving it about a bit. It takes about 2seconds. This depends on how sharp you need the edge to be. If you are doing hand work on a very hard wood and you want the cut to be of very high quality, it helps if the edge is very sharp. If you polish both the back and the bevel, the edge will be smoother and sharper. If you were to look at an edge that had not been polished through a microscope, you would see lots of ridges and valleys. Polishing reduces these. If, of course, you are simply running some softwood through a thicknesser and the wood is for joinery that will never be seen, there is no need to worry too much. -- Howard Neil |
#40
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Problems sharpening chisels
"Richard Sterry" wrote in message
... Yes, I'm having problems sharpening my chisels to 30°. The basic problem seems to me to be that my sharpening stone is far far too fine. It's in perfect condition, but is probably quite a lot older than me and is marked "Bauxilite 479 Medium". Bauxilite is of course the abrasive material, I've managed to figure that one out, but the number is meaningless and "Medium" is a very subjective term. I have some brand new chisels to sharpen, already ground to 25° but blunt, and some old ones which due to years of horrible mistreatment really could do with regrinding to 25° before I grind them to 30°. snip glass plate and abrasive paper solution, aka Scary Sharp, is probably the cheapest route to success. Starting with a suitably coarse abrasive you should be able to get the correct angle relatively quickly. Couple of useful things under "sharpening basics & links" on Steve Knight's site: http://www.knight-toolworks.com/articles.htm -- Richard Sampson email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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