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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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How PC are your PVC windows?
From the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm How PC are your PVC windows? One of the biggest revolutions in the look of Britain's buildings in recent years has been in windows. The British government's efforts to cut energy use in homes has singled out windows for special attention. All new and replacement windows now have to be double glazed to cut heat loss. Consequently, wooden window frames have given way to PVC framed double glazing, which is cheaper to buy and install than double glazed timber frames. In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC double glazing. Brittle Many environmentalists acknowledge that double glazing helps cut energy use, but they also argue that PVC is a damaging chemical. "The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert, author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers in the UK. "This apparently causes the chlorine to actually evaporate from the material and it goes brittle, it goes discoloured, you lean a ladder up against the window sill and after a few years it becomes so brittle that it just breaks off." The claim is refuted by industry officials who insist critics of PVC simply do not understand the material. "They don't know what PVC is," says Jean Pierre DeGreve, of the European Council of Vinyl Manufacturers. Insulation value Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is as environmentally friendly as the alternatives and generates benefits for consumers. "People prefer PVC because they do not have to maintain the frame of the window," he says. Not so, insists Mr Howell. "People are often sold replacement PVC double glazed windows with the promise that it is going to save them money in the long run by keeping in the heat," he says. "PVC is often sold as being a long-lasting energy saving material, but it's not. It lasts maybe 20 years." Moreover, Mr Howell continues, "the frames themselves do not have a higher insulation value and the glass isn't all that it's cracked up to be". Waste What happens at the end of a PVC window's life is also hotly disputed. Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is "the polymer which is very easy to recycle, much easier than other plastics". But environmentalists refuted the argument, pointing out that in practice very few PVC window frames are currently recycled in Britain. Some argue that it simply is not economical to separate the PVC from the window handles, glass and other parts. And PVC cannot be sent to incinerators, because it releases dangerous chemicals if burnt. Mr DeGreve, however, points out that wood windows may pose environmental threats too. "If [consumers] choose wood they need to paint it regularly, and of course this is not environmentally friendly at all," he says. "Additionally, at the end of the life of a wooden window frame you have to do something. You can put it in landfill, but of course you put the paint in landfill, or you have to incinerate it. "It means you have to incinerate the paint, which is not productive for the environment." Waste mountain At the heart of the pollution problem is the replacement of windows which in many cases could have been kept in place for longer. Thornton Kay, of reclamation group Salvo, says the government has created a culture of window replacement by introducing rules that in effect outlaw the reuse of old windows. "The problem we've got in the UK is that we are sending about 10 million windows a year to landfill. Maybe half of those are coming from demolished buildings," Mr Kay says. "The other half is coming from the window replacement industry and it seems as though the window replacement industry is trying to educate people to think that windows are a consumer durable, like a washing machine. "Every 10 years, you're just going to get rid of [your PVC windows] and get new ones. Whereas the [wood] windows that they're replacing could be a hundred years old, and with a certain amount of repair work could go on for another hundred years." Again, the PVC industry denies the environmentalists' claims. "If you are happy with the design of your window frame, you can leave it in place for 100 years, without any problem," says "The point is, some people sometimes want to change because they want a new design. It isn't up to date any more. "But it is the case with PVC, it is also the case with aluminium and it is also the case with wood." |
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From the BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm How PC are your PVC windows? Consequently, wooden window frames have given way to PVC framed double glazing, which is cheaper to buy and install than double glazed timber frames. In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC double glazing. My wooden windows are the same the house was built with, they are starting to rot, but are also nearly 70 years old, my neighbours have had three different sets of double glazed windows in the last twenty years, how can that be environmentally friendly? I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same, I can make them myself and even reuse the glass. Also, the odd draughts that get around them keep the house ventilated, just as per original design, my neighbours have had to add air bricks to stop black mould growth in their house. mrcheerful |
#3
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"mrcheerful ." wrote in message .uk... In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC double glazing. My wooden windows are the same the house was built with, they are starting to rot, but are also nearly 70 years old, my neighbours have had three different sets of double glazed windows in the last twenty years, how can that be environmentally friendly? I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same, We did, where absolutely necessary. We bought factory sealed double glazed uits to our measurements and fitted those. Best of both worlds. The removed glass was re-used to make secondary double glazing for the leaded lights and in sheds and the like. Mary |
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In article , Pete C
wrote: "The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert, author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers in the UK. And only to think that last week he was an authority on condensing boilers. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
#5
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Pete C wrote:
From the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm How PC are your PVC windows? One of the biggest revolutions in the look of Britain's buildings in recent years has been in windows. The British government's efforts to cut energy use in homes has singled out windows for special attention. All new and replacement windows now have to be double glazed to cut heat loss. Consequently, wooden window frames have given way to PVC framed double glazing, which is cheaper to buy and install than double glazed timber frames. In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC double glazing. Brittle Many environmentalists acknowledge that double glazing helps cut energy use, but they also argue that PVC is a damaging chemical. "The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert, author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers in the UK. "This apparently causes the chlorine to actually evaporate from the material and it goes brittle, it goes discoloured, you lean a ladder up against the window sill and after a few years it becomes so brittle that it just breaks off." The claim is refuted by industry officials who insist critics of PVC simply do not understand the material. "They don't know what PVC is," says Jean Pierre DeGreve, of the European Council of Vinyl Manufacturers. Insulation value Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is as environmentally friendly as the alternatives and generates benefits for consumers. "People prefer PVC because they do not have to maintain the frame of the window," he says. Not so, insists Mr Howell. "People are often sold replacement PVC double glazed windows with the promise that it is going to save them money in the long run by keeping in the heat," he says. "PVC is often sold as being a long-lasting energy saving material, but it's not. It lasts maybe 20 years." Moreover, Mr Howell continues, "the frames themselves do not have a higher insulation value and the glass isn't all that it's cracked up to be". Waste What happens at the end of a PVC window's life is also hotly disputed. Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is "the polymer which is very easy to recycle, much easier than other plastics". But environmentalists refuted the argument, pointing out that in practice very few PVC window frames are currently recycled in Britain. Some argue that it simply is not economical to separate the PVC from the window handles, glass and other parts. And PVC cannot be sent to incinerators, because it releases dangerous chemicals if burnt. Mr DeGreve, however, points out that wood windows may pose environmental threats too. "If [consumers] choose wood they need to paint it regularly, and of course this is not environmentally friendly at all," he says. "Additionally, at the end of the life of a wooden window frame you have to do something. You can put it in landfill, but of course you put the paint in landfill, or you have to incinerate it. "It means you have to incinerate the paint, which is not productive for the environment." Waste mountain At the heart of the pollution problem is the replacement of windows which in many cases could have been kept in place for longer. Thornton Kay, of reclamation group Salvo, says the government has created a culture of window replacement by introducing rules that in effect outlaw the reuse of old windows. "The problem we've got in the UK is that we are sending about 10 million windows a year to landfill. Maybe half of those are coming from demolished buildings," Mr Kay says. "The other half is coming from the window replacement industry and it seems as though the window replacement industry is trying to educate people to think that windows are a consumer durable, like a washing machine. "Every 10 years, you're just going to get rid of [your PVC windows] and get new ones. Whereas the [wood] windows that they're replacing could be a hundred years old, and with a certain amount of repair work could go on for another hundred years." Again, the PVC industry denies the environmentalists' claims. "If you are happy with the design of your window frame, you can leave it in place for 100 years, without any problem," says "The point is, some people sometimes want to change because they want a new design. It isn't up to date any more. "But it is the case with PVC, it is also the case with aluminium and it is also the case with wood." -- Grunff |
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Pete C wrote:
From the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm snip Jeff Howell drivel The man is clearly an idiot. If he isn't IMM, he's a close relative. -- Grunff |
#7
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"Pete C" wrote in message ... From the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm How PC are your PVC windows? Snip Probably not very, but I'm just about to start replacing all the windows in a 4 bed house this weekend. The existing windows (as per Bovis build 1984) are literally falling out. Cheap, fast grown softwood frames plus original primer, under and top coats peeling off no visible maintenance in 20 years. I counted only 3 houses with original windows out of at least 50 in the immediate area, everyone has gone the uPVC route. By comparison the house I live in has the original mullion and timber framed windows from 1883 and they are still going strong. I think that is the problem, 1980's Bovis vs. 1880's shipbuilder. Slight difference in quality of materials and workmanship. Maybe modern houseowners aren't to blame? |
#8
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:49:28 +0000, Pete C
wrote: From the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm How PC are your PVC windows? -- snip -- All new and replacement windows now have to be double glazed to cut heat loss. -- snip -- This is not true. If, for example, the building is in a conservation area any replacement windows may have to be the same as the originals. This could make double glazing too expensive. W |
#9
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Grunff wrote:
snip Jeff Howell drivel The man is clearly an idiot. If he isn't IMM, he's a close relative. Probably true in some cases, but I have some sympathy with him on this one. Other than cost, I can't see that PVC has any real advantages over a decent hardwood frame. Many PVC windows seem to get replaced within 20 years as well. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#10
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John Rumm wrote:
Grunff wrote: snip Jeff Howell drivel The man is clearly an idiot. If he isn't IMM, he's a close relative. Probably true in some cases, but I have some sympathy with him on this one. Other than cost, I can't see that PVC has any real advantages over a decent hardwood frame. Many PVC windows seem to get replaced within 20 years as well. We have uPVC, which replaced the softwood windows that were originally installed when the house was built in the '30s. The reasons we went for uPVC are the zero-maintenance factor and the fact that they fitted in well with our black/white house. Also, they were a fraction of the price of *decent* hardwood frames. -- Grunff |
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In article ,
John Rumm wrote: Probably true in some cases, but I have some sympathy with him on this one. Other than cost, I can't see that PVC has any real advantages over a decent hardwood frame. Many PVC windows seem to get replaced within 20 years as well. But this may be as much cultural as anything else: you now replace things because you want a fresh look or something different, not because the old is worn out. I wonder if Mr Howell lectures customers who want perfectly good kitchens ripped out and replaced in similar vein? -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
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Grunff wrote:
We have uPVC, which replaced the softwood windows that were originally installed when the house was built in the '30s. The reasons we went for uPVC are the zero-maintenance factor and the fact that they fitted in well with our black/white house. Also, they were a fraction of the price of *decent* hardwood frames. Yup, wood frames are more expensive. When I costed the three windows I needed for my loft conversion, woodgrain effect PVC worked out about a third of the cost of hardwood that would have matched the rest of the house. In the end I figured that they were far enough away to not look too objectionable, so in spite of my preference for wood, that is what I went for. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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Tony Bryer wrote:
But this may be as much cultural as anything else: you now replace things because you want a fresh look or something different, not because the old is worn out. True. Quite often, people I know, have ended up replacing windows in cases where there was nothing wrong with the windows as such. Often there were other things like some of the sealed units had failed, or some of the original fittings or hinges had broken, and it was no longer possible to get replacements that worked in quite the same way. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#14
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"Tony Bryer" wrote in message ... I wonder if Mr Howell lectures customers who want perfectly good kitchens ripped out and replaced in similar vein? I do ... in my head. Mary |
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"Pete C" wrote in message ... From the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm How PC are your PVC windows? snip "The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert, author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers in the UK. snip Has he never heard of uPVC ?.... |
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mrcheerful . wrote:
I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same, I can make them myself and even reuse the glass. Also, the odd draughts that get around them keep the house ventilated, just as per original design, my neighbours have had to add air bricks to stop black mould growth in their house. Is one (officially) allowed to do that? -- Chris Green |
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Steve Jones wrote:
"The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert, author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers in the UK. "This apparently causes the chlorine to actually evaporate from the material and it goes brittle, it goes discoloured, you lean a ladder up against the window sill and after a few years it becomes so brittle that it just breaks off." Has anyone had uPVC frames or soffits/fascias go brittle? If so how long did this take? Steve uPVC soffits and facias will go brittle in cold weather, but then when it gets warmer, they will be as they were when new. Now then I only work for a company that does this kind of work, so I don't really know what I am talking about. :-) cheers |
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wrote:
I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same, I can make them myself and even reuse the glass. Also, the odd draughts that get around them keep the house ventilated, just as per original design, my neighbours have had to add air bricks to stop black mould growth in their house. Is one (officially) allowed to do that? You are allowed to repair existing windows without coming under the regs. So if you keep the glass you could argue you were just replacing some of the wood! ;-) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#19
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As you can see the BBC have elected a new champion for "something".
Very similar to John what-ever-his-name is the BBC's Rail Champ who did absolutely nothing except propose silly ideas and confirm his own incompetence. CM. |
#20
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"Bob H" wrote in message ... snip [ re uPVC windows ] Now then I only work for a company that does this kind of work, so I don't really know what I am talking about. :-) Some don't.... |
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