A DIY & home improvement forum. DIYbanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DIYbanter forum » Do - it - Yourself » UK diy
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Plastic Pipes in central heating



 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 31st 03, 06:40 PM
Zetor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plastic Pipes in central heating

Hi,
I just had a new combi boiler fitted by 2 extremley efficient gas
fitters, they did a really good tidy job, on talking to them about the
use of plastic pipes I ask why they still use copper, they said that
they still use copper for the central heating pipes as it is far
better then plastic as they didn't believe plastic was as air tight as
a good soldered joint. They had even replaced boilers of only 2 years
old which had corroded due to poor installtion and extensive use of
plastic pipes. Does anyone know what conditions air could get into a
sealed system like me combi? I have one radiator which is plumbed in
plastic and now wonder if I should maybe get it piped in copper.

Zetor
Ads
  #2  
Old July 31st 03, 08:40 PM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plastic Pipes in central heating

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:49:33 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Zetor wrote:
Hi,
I just had a new combi boiler fitted by 2 extremley efficient gas
fitters, they did a really good tidy job, on talking to them about the
use of plastic pipes I ask why they still use copper, they said that
they still use copper for the central heating pipes as it is far
better then plastic as they didn't believe plastic was as air tight as
a good soldered joint. They had even replaced boilers of only 2 years
old which had corroded due to poor installtion and extensive use of
plastic pipes. Does anyone know what conditions air could get into a
sealed system like me combi? I have one radiator which is plumbed in
plastic and now wonder if I should maybe get it piped in copper.


As long as it's plumbed with plastic pipe which has an oxygen
barrier, it will be fine.

I plumbed the whole house in plastic nearly 2 years ago, and
haven't had any problems with air in the system.


I'd say they use copper because they can keep the costs down, your
paying for their labour so they wouldn't want to use something that
took half the time to fit would they? Or am I just being cynical...
;-)

And if it was as rubbish as some people seem to make out the
manufacturers would have been sued out of business surely?

Mark S.

  #3  
Old July 31st 03, 11:36 PM
IMM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plastic Pipes in central heating


"BillR" wrote in message
...
Zetor wrote:
Hi,
I just had a new combi boiler fitted by 2 extremley efficient gas
fitters, they did a really good tidy job, on talking to them about the
use of plastic pipes I ask why they still use copper, they said that
they still use copper for the central heating pipes as it is far
better then plastic as they didn't believe plastic was as air tight as
a good soldered joint. They had even replaced boilers of only 2 years
old which had corroded due to poor installtion and extensive use of
plastic pipes. Does anyone know what conditions air could get into a
sealed system like me combi? I have one radiator which is plumbed in
plastic and now wonder if I should maybe get it piped in copper.

Zetor


British Gas won't allow maintainance contract on system with plastic pipe
that doesn't have a barrier layer.
That doesn't mean to say that such systems are no good, its just that they
are very fussy (and seriously overcharge). You can see the barrier layer

if
you look at the pipe end, its a ring in the middle of the wall.
All the hepworth stuff in my local Jewson's seems to have it.
Allegedly without it minute amounts of oxygen can permeate through the
plastic.
You can plumb a system with far less joints in plastic, so its quicker and
overall less risk of leaks.
You cannot use it for gas or within 1/2M or so of the boiler CH

flow/return.

Marley Equator and Speedfit pipe is barrier pipe. The other makers have two
types. Non-barrier and barrier. You need the barrier pipe for CH. the
none barrier is fine for hot and cold water systems. It is all silly. All
pipe should be barrier pipe then there will be no problems.

If you can fit copper then do so, and only fit plastic where it is required.
If speed and ease of installtion is the point then use copper with brass
push-fit fittings, which now are about the price of plastic fittings.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #4  
Old August 1st 03, 12:52 AM
John Stumbles
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plastic Pipes in central heating

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BillR" wrote in message
...
Zetor wrote:
Hi,
I just had a new combi boiler fitted by 2 extremley efficient gas
fitters, they did a really good tidy job, on talking to them about the
use of plastic pipes I ask why they still use copper, they said that
they still use copper for the central heating pipes as it is far
better then plastic as they didn't believe plastic was as air tight as
a good soldered joint. They had even replaced boilers of only 2 years
old which had corroded due to poor installtion and extensive use of
plastic pipes. Does anyone know what conditions air could get into a
sealed system like me combi? I have one radiator which is plumbed in
plastic and now wonder if I should maybe get it piped in copper.

Zetor


British Gas won't allow maintainance contract on system with plastic

pipe
that doesn't have a barrier layer.
That doesn't mean to say that such systems are no good, its just that

they
are very fussy (and seriously overcharge). You can see the barrier layer

if
you look at the pipe end, its a ring in the middle of the wall.
All the hepworth stuff in my local Jewson's seems to have it.
Allegedly without it minute amounts of oxygen can permeate through the
plastic.
You can plumb a system with far less joints in plastic, so its quicker

and
overall less risk of leaks.
You cannot use it for gas or within 1/2M or so of the boiler CH

flow/return.

Marley Equator and Speedfit pipe is barrier pipe. The other makers have

two
types. Non-barrier and barrier. You need the barrier pipe for CH. the
none barrier is fine for hot and cold water systems.


Well those stetson-wearing folks at the Hepworth ranch say:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...40news11-gui.s
erver.ntli.net

In particular:

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"
If Hep2O Standard pipe has been installed in accordance with our
instructions in a central heating system and one of the recommended
inhibitors used there is no technical reason why it should not continue to
give good service for many decades.

Some of the British Gas regions only accept Hep2O Barrier Pipe on their
service contracts. This is their commercial decision. Of course British Gas
no longer hold a monopoly on maintenance schemes for heating systems and
there are other insurance backed schemes available from various
organisations, which will accept both Standard and Barrier pipe.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"

It is all silly. All
pipe should be barrier pipe then there will be no problems.



Having worked with both barrier and non-barrier pipe and compared the ease
of getting it where I want it -- especially 22mm (or even 28mm) -- I now buy
non-barrier pipe (even though it costs more).


If you can fit copper then do so, and only fit plastic where it is

required.
If speed and ease of installtion is the point then use copper with brass
push-fit fittings, which now are about the price of plastic fittings.



They all use 'rubber' (EPDM or some such) 'O'-rings to make the seals,
whether they're brass, copper, stainless-steel or plastic on the outside.

--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+



  #5  
Old August 1st 03, 01:09 AM
IMM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plastic Pipes in central heating


"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message
...

Marley Equator and Speedfit pipe is barrier
pipe. The other makers have two
types. Non-barrier and barrier. You need
the barrier pipe for CH. the none barrier is
fine for hot and cold water systems.


Well those stetson-wearing folks at the Hepworth ranch say:



"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"
If Hep2O Standard pipe has been installed in accordance with our
instructions in a central heating system and one of the recommended
inhibitors used there is no technical reason why it should not continue to
give good service for many decades.

Some of the British Gas regions only accept Hep2O Barrier Pipe on their
service contracts. This is their commercial decision. Of course British

Gas
no longer hold a monopoly on maintenance schemes for heating systems and
there are other insurance backed schemes available from various
organisations, which will accept both Standard and Barrier pipe.


"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"


It is when the inhibitor breaks down, then you get problems.

It is all silly. All
pipe should be barrier pipe then
there will be no problems.


If you can fit copper then do so, and
only fit plastic where it is required.
If speed and ease of installation is
the point then use copper with brass
push-fit fittings, which now are about
the price of plastic fittings.


They all use 'rubber' (EPDM or some such)
'O'-rings to make the seals,
whether they're brass, copper, stainless-steel
or plastic on the outside.


That is true. But!! Copper pipe does not sag when hot, neither does brass
fittings. No barrier problem, no ferrous plastic pipe inserts and it looks
better.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 06/06/2003


  #6  
Old August 1st 03, 03:46 PM
Hepworth Plumbing Products Team
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plastic Pipes in central heating

"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message ...
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BillR" wrote in message
...
Zetor wrote:
Hi,
I just had a new combi boiler fitted by 2 extremley efficient gas
fitters, they did a really good tidy job, on talking to them about the
use of plastic pipes I ask why they still use copper, they said that
they still use copper for the central heating pipes as it is far
better then plastic as they didn't believe plastic was as air tight as
a good soldered joint. They had even replaced boilers of only 2 years
old which had corroded due to poor installtion and extensive use of
plastic pipes. Does anyone know what conditions air could get into a
sealed system like me combi? I have one radiator which is plumbed in
plastic and now wonder if I should maybe get it piped in copper.

Zetor

British Gas won't allow maintainance contract on system with plastic

pipe
that doesn't have a barrier layer.
That doesn't mean to say that such systems are no good, its just that

they
are very fussy (and seriously overcharge). You can see the barrier layer

if
you look at the pipe end, its a ring in the middle of the wall.
All the hepworth stuff in my local Jewson's seems to have it.
Allegedly without it minute amounts of oxygen can permeate through the
plastic.
You can plumb a system with far less joints in plastic, so its quicker

and
overall less risk of leaks.
You cannot use it for gas or within 1/2M or so of the boiler CH

flow/return.

Marley Equator and Speedfit pipe is barrier pipe. The other makers have

two
types. Non-barrier and barrier. You need the barrier pipe for CH. the
none barrier is fine for hot and cold water systems.


Well those stetson-wearing folks at the Hepworth ranch say:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...40news11-gui.s
erver.ntli.net

In particular:

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"
If Hep2O Standard pipe has been installed in accordance with our
instructions in a central heating system and one of the recommended
inhibitors used there is no technical reason why it should not continue to
give good service for many decades.

Some of the British Gas regions only accept Hep2O Barrier Pipe on their
service contracts. This is their commercial decision. Of course British Gas
no longer hold a monopoly on maintenance schemes for heating systems and
there are other insurance backed schemes available from various
organisations, which will accept both Standard and Barrier pipe.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"

It is all silly. All
pipe should be barrier pipe then there will be no problems.



Having worked with both barrier and non-barrier pipe and compared the ease
of getting it where I want it -- especially 22mm (or even 28mm) -- I now buy
non-barrier pipe (even though it costs more).


If you can fit copper then do so, and only fit plastic where it is

required.
If speed and ease of installtion is the point then use copper with brass
push-fit fittings, which now are about the price of plastic fittings.



They all use 'rubber' (EPDM or some such) 'O'-rings to make the seals,
whether they're brass, copper, stainless-steel or plastic on the outside.


As an update to the information posted previously, British Gas have
revised their internal policy and now accept Non-Barrier (Standard)
pipe as well as Barrier pipe for their service contracts. This change
took place earlier this year.

It is now considered by British Gas that central heating systems that
include plastics pipe manufactured to the appropriate British Standard
(such as Hep2O) do not represent a potential corrosion problem from
oxygen ingress where the system water includes an adequate strength of
inhibitor. This applies equally to Barrier and Non-Barrier pipes.

At the same time as this change took place, a test for inhibitor
strength and a turbidity test to check for debris/corrosion deposits
were introduced by British Gas for all systems, including those piped
in copper.

Hepworth have always advised that all central heating systems should
have inhibitors installed.

The Hepworth Plumbing Products Team
--
Tel: +44 (0)1709 856 300 |Hepworth Plumbing Products
Fax: +44 (0)1709 856 301 |Edlington Lane, Edlington
Email: |Doncaster, UK
http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk |DN12 1BY
  #7  
Old August 2nd 03, 12:18 PM
IMM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plastic Pipes in central heating


"Hepworth Plumbing Products Team" wrote in
message om...
"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message

...
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BillR" wrote in message
...
Zetor wrote:
Hi,
I just had a new combi boiler fitted by 2 extremley efficient

gas
fitters, they did a really good tidy job, on talking to them about

the
use of plastic pipes I ask why they still use copper, they said

that
they still use copper for the central heating pipes as it is far
better then plastic as they didn't believe plastic was as air

tight as
a good soldered joint. They had even replaced boilers of only 2

years
old which had corroded due to poor installtion and extensive use

of
plastic pipes. Does anyone know what conditions air could get into

a
sealed system like me combi? I have one radiator which is plumbed

in
plastic and now wonder if I should maybe get it piped in copper.

Zetor

British Gas won't allow maintainance contract on system with plastic

pipe
that doesn't have a barrier layer.
That doesn't mean to say that such systems are no good, its just

that
they
are very fussy (and seriously overcharge). You can see the barrier

layer
if
you look at the pipe end, its a ring in the middle of the wall.
All the hepworth stuff in my local Jewson's seems to have it.
Allegedly without it minute amounts of oxygen can permeate through

the
plastic.
You can plumb a system with far less joints in plastic, so its

quicker
and
overall less risk of leaks.
You cannot use it for gas or within 1/2M or so of the boiler CH
flow/return.

Marley Equator and Speedfit pipe is barrier pipe. The other makers

have
two
types. Non-barrier and barrier. You need the barrier pipe for CH.

the
none barrier is fine for hot and cold water systems.


Well those stetson-wearing folks at the Hepworth ranch say:


http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...40news11-gui.s
erver.ntli.net

In particular:


"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"
If Hep2O Standard pipe has been installed in accordance with our
instructions in a central heating system and one of the recommended
inhibitors used there is no technical reason why it should not continue

to
give good service for many decades.

Some of the British Gas regions only accept Hep2O Barrier Pipe on their
service contracts. This is their commercial decision. Of course British

Gas
no longer hold a monopoly on maintenance schemes for heating systems and
there are other insurance backed schemes available from various
organisations, which will accept both Standard and Barrier pipe.


"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""
"

It is all silly. All
pipe should be barrier pipe then there will be no problems.



Having worked with both barrier and non-barrier pipe and compared the

ease
of getting it where I want it -- especially 22mm (or even 28mm) -- I now

buy
non-barrier pipe (even though it costs more).


If you can fit copper then do so, and only fit plastic where it is

required.
If speed and ease of installtion is the point then use copper with

brass
push-fit fittings, which now are about the price of plastic fittings.



They all use 'rubber' (EPDM or some such) 'O'-rings to make the seals,
whether they're brass, copper, stainless-steel or plastic on the

outside.

As an update to the information posted previously, British Gas have
revised their internal policy and now accept Non-Barrier (Standard)
pipe as well as Barrier pipe for their service contracts. This change
took place earlier this year.

It is now considered by British Gas that central heating systems that
include plastics pipe manufactured to the appropriate British Standard
(such as Hep2O) do not represent a potential corrosion problem from
oxygen ingress where the system water includes an adequate strength of
inhibitor. This applies equally to Barrier and Non-Barrier pipes.

At the same time as this change took place, a test for inhibitor
strength and a turbidity test to check for debris/corrosion deposits
were introduced by British Gas for all systems, including those piped
in copper.

Hepworth have always advised that all central heating systems should
have inhibitors installed.


If fitting UFH and use plastic pipes without a oxygen barrier use
non-ferrous throughout the system, Such as:

- None-ferrous heat exchanger in the boiler
- Plastic pipe with ferrous pipe inserts.
- A brass or bronze pump




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Central heating Q Mungo \two sheds\ Toadfoot UK diy 28 February 11th 05 11:08 AM
2 port Vs 3 port central heating valves EMC UK diy 16 July 31st 03 08:09 PM
Further to my last post entitled 'Flushing and treating central heating question' David W.E. Roberts UK diy 0 July 29th 03 07:15 PM
Flushing and treating Central Heating question echo21 UK diy 4 July 27th 03 10:19 AM
Costs for Gas Central heating from Electric storage Richard Markham UK diy 0 July 14th 03 08:46 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2004-2014 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.