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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
I've got a plumber in doing some jobs for me at the moment, including
fitting some new radiators to an existing system, which has a combi boiler and 22/15mm copper pipes throughout. I left him to it this morning and came back to find he'd installed a rad using 10mm microbore; he'd put the 15mm TRV and lockshield valve which I'd supplied to one side, and bought his own 10mm kit instead. I am admittedly predjudiced against microbore as it's harder (IMO, for me) to fit, and I believe more likely to block; so I was a bit hacked off with this, especially as there was no problem at all with access to existing 15mm pipework under the floor. He'd simply fitted lengths of microbore to the ends of the flow and return 15mm pipes using reducers. When quizzed, he said it was because radiators "work better" with microbore; that's as much as I could get. The guy is very uncommunicative and I find difficult to talk to, but he's reliable, good value, and does a good job, and I don't want to make an issue of this unnecessarily. But before he fits any more rads for me can anybody tell me if it's possible there is any truth in what he's saying? Thanks David |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
Dave Baker wrote:
No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
Subject: Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
From: John Rumm Date: 06/04/04 01:17 GMT Daylight Time Message-id: Dave Baker wrote: No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. In which case the rad won't get hot as I said. Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.uk) I'm not at all sure why women like men. We're argumentative, childish, unsociable and extremely unappealing naked. I'm quite grateful they do though. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"Lobster" wrote in message om... I've got a plumber in doing some jobs for me at the moment, including fitting some new radiators to an existing system, which has a combi boiler and 22/15mm copper pipes throughout. I left him to it this morning and came back to find he'd installed a rad using 10mm microbore; he'd put the 15mm TRV and lockshield valve which I'd supplied to one side, and bought his own 10mm kit instead. I am admittedly predjudiced against microbore as it's harder (IMO, for me) to fit, and I believe more likely to block; so I was a bit hacked off with this, especially as there was no problem at all with access to existing 15mm pipework under the floor. He'd simply fitted lengths of microbore to the ends of the flow and return 15mm pipes using reducers. When quizzed, he said it was because radiators "work better" with microbore; that's as much as I could get. The guy is very uncommunicative and I find difficult to talk to, but he's reliable, good value, and does a good job, and I don't want to make an issue of this unnecessarily. But before he fits any more rads for me can anybody tell me if it's possible there is any truth in what he's saying? David, If in the south your opinion is skewed. Microbore is alien to the hard water south, while in Northern soft water areas it is the norm. The Scandinavians have been using it since the end of WW2, and the north of England the late 1960s. The south would not even install microbore in "sealed" systems, simply because they just didn't understand it. Microbore is superior if the whole system is designed for it with appropriate manifolds. I assume you do not have a full microbore system. 10mm pipe is common on small-bore systems (15mm & 22mm) on some rad runs. Nothing to worry about, especially if the system is sealed. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"Dave Baker" wrote in message ... Subject: Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber From: (Lobster) Date: 06/04/04 00:13 GMT Daylight Time Message-id: I've got a plumber in doing some jobs for me at the moment, including fitting some new radiators to an existing system, which has a combi boiler and 22/15mm copper pipes throughout. I left him to it this morning and came back to find he'd installed a rad using 10mm microbore; he'd put the 15mm TRV and lockshield valve which I'd supplied to one side, and bought his own 10mm kit instead. I am admittedly predjudiced against microbore as it's harder (IMO, for me) to fit, and I believe more likely to block; so I was a bit hacked off with this, especially as there was no problem at all with access to existing 15mm pipework under the floor. He'd simply fitted lengths of microbore to the ends of the flow and return 15mm pipes using reducers. When quizzed, he said it was because radiators "work better" with microbore; that's as much as I could get. The guy is very uncommunicative and I find difficult to talk to, but he's reliable, good value, and does a good job, and I don't want to make an issue of this unnecessarily. But before he fits any more rads for me can anybody tell me if it's possible there is any truth in what he's saying? No it's ********. Please only comment if you know what you are talking about. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Dave Baker wrote: No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. You size the pipe to suit. As always. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"Dave Baker" wrote in message ... Subject: Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber From: John Rumm Date: 06/04/04 01:17 GMT Daylight Time Message-id: Dave Baker wrote: No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. In which case the rad won't get hot as I said. Please do not comment on issues you clearly know nothing about. Stick to engines that go Brummmm, brummmm. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"IMM" wrote in message ... David, If in the south your opinion is skewed. Microbore is alien to the hard water south, while in Northern soft water areas it is the norm. The Scandinavians have been using it since the end of WW2, and the north of England the late 1960s. The south would not even install microbore in "sealed" systems, simply because they just didn't understand it. Microbore is superior if the whole system is designed for it with appropriate manifolds. I assume you do not have a full microbore system. 10mm pipe is common on small-bore systems (15mm & 22mm) on some rad runs. Nothing to worry about, especially if the system is sealed. What are you talking about? I live in the south, and I don't have hard water. My parents live in the south and their radiators are all on microbore. Neil |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
IMM wrote:
"Lobster" wrote in message om... I've got a plumber in doing some jobs for me at the moment, including fitting some new radiators to an existing system, which has a combi boiler and 22/15mm copper pipes throughout. I left him to it this morning and came back to find he'd installed a rad using 10mm microbore; he'd put the 15mm TRV and lockshield valve which I'd supplied to one side, and bought his own 10mm kit instead. I am admittedly predjudiced against microbore as it's harder (IMO, for me) to fit, and I believe more likely to block; so I was a bit hacked off with this, especially as there was no problem at all with access to existing 15mm pipework under the floor. He'd simply fitted lengths of microbore to the ends of the flow and return 15mm pipes using reducers. When quizzed, he said it was because radiators "work better" with microbore; that's as much as I could get. The guy is very uncommunicative and I find difficult to talk to, but he's reliable, good value, and does a good job, and I don't want to make an issue of this unnecessarily. But before he fits any more rads for me can anybody tell me if it's possible there is any truth in what he's saying? David, If in the south your opinion is skewed. Microbore is alien to the hard water south, while in Northern soft water areas it is the norm. The Scandinavians have been using it since the end of WW2, and the north of England the late 1960s. The south would not even install microbore in "sealed" systems, simply because they just didn't understand it. Microbore is superior if the whole system is designed for it with appropriate manifolds. I assume you do not have a full microbore system. 10mm pipe is common on small-bore systems (15mm & 22mm) on some rad runs. Nothing to worry about, especially if the system is sealed. A memorable quote is appropriate here - you yourself may find it familiar: "Please do not comment on issues you clearly know nothing about." Living in the South (Surrey) I can confirm that plenty of people here have microbore. (different) David |
#13
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"Neil Jones" wrote in message ... "IMM" wrote in message ... David, If in the south your opinion is skewed. Microbore is alien to the hard water south, while in Northern soft water areas it is the norm. The Scandinavians have been using it since the end of WW2, and the north of England the late 1960s. The south would not even install microbore in "sealed" systems, simply because they just didn't understand it. Microbore is superior if the whole system is designed for it with appropriate manifolds. I assume you do not have a full microbore system. 10mm pipe is common on small-bore systems (15mm & 22mm) on some rad runs. Nothing to worry about, especially if the system is sealed. What are you talking about? It was quite clear. I live in the south, and I don't have hard water. My parents live in the south and their radiators are all on microbore. There are few soft water areas in the south. And fewer full microbore systems. You are one of the few. Don't you feel good about that? |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"David Hearn" wrote in message ... IMM wrote: "Lobster" wrote in message om... I've got a plumber in doing some jobs for me at the moment, including fitting some new radiators to an existing system, which has a combi boiler and 22/15mm copper pipes throughout. I left him to it this morning and came back to find he'd installed a rad using 10mm microbore; he'd put the 15mm TRV and lockshield valve which I'd supplied to one side, and bought his own 10mm kit instead. I am admittedly predjudiced against microbore as it's harder (IMO, for me) to fit, and I believe more likely to block; so I was a bit hacked off with this, especially as there was no problem at all with access to existing 15mm pipework under the floor. He'd simply fitted lengths of microbore to the ends of the flow and return 15mm pipes using reducers. When quizzed, he said it was because radiators "work better" with microbore; that's as much as I could get. The guy is very uncommunicative and I find difficult to talk to, but he's reliable, good value, and does a good job, and I don't want to make an issue of this unnecessarily. But before he fits any more rads for me can anybody tell me if it's possible there is any truth in what he's saying? David, If in the south your opinion is skewed. Microbore is alien to the hard water south, while in Northern soft water areas it is the norm. The Scandinavians have been using it since the end of WW2, and the north of England the late 1960s. The south would not even install microbore in "sealed" systems, simply because they just didn't understand it. Microbore is superior if the whole system is designed for it with appropriate manifolds. I assume you do not have a full microbore system. 10mm pipe is common on small-bore systems (15mm & 22mm) on some rad runs. Nothing to worry about, especially if the system is sealed. A memorable quote is appropriate here - you yourself may find it familiar: "Please do not comment on issues you clearly know nothing about." Living in the South (Surrey) I can confirm that plenty of people here have microbore. Full systems or microbore (soft copper) runs to individual rads? A full mircobore system has manifolds, etc. There are some in the south but few and between. Most would have been fitted by a developers. Get a small local company to do it, and they would shy away as they would not be familiar. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
John Rumm wrote:
Dave Baker wrote: No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. Indeed. I calculated that the maximum heat transfer through 1m of 8mm pipe is 2.28Kw and obviously less through longer pipes so any rad over 2Kw (ie a fairly 'normal 600 x 1200 double) would not reach temperature if fed with microbore Nick Brooks |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"IMM" wrote in message ... "David Hearn" wrote in message ... "Please do not comment on issues you clearly know nothing about." Living in the South (Surrey) I can confirm that plenty of people here have microbore. Full systems or microbore (soft copper) runs to individual rads? A full mircobore system has manifolds, etc. There are some in the south but few and between. Most would have been fitted by a developers. Even if this were true, wouldn't the developer have used a local subbie to install the heating? Get a small local company to do it, and they would shy away as they would not be familiar. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"IMM" wrote in message ... "Neil Jones" wrote in message ... "IMM" wrote in message ... David, If in the south your opinion is skewed. Microbore is alien to the hard water south, while in Northern soft water areas it is the norm. The Scandinavians have been using it since the end of WW2, and the north of England the late 1960s. The south would not even install microbore in "sealed" systems, simply because they just didn't understand it. Microbore is superior if the whole system is designed for it with appropriate manifolds. I assume you do not have a full microbore system. 10mm pipe is common on small-bore systems (15mm & 22mm) on some rad runs. Nothing to worry about, especially if the system is sealed. What are you talking about? It was quite clear. I live in the south, and I don't have hard water. My parents live in the south and their radiators are all on microbore. There are few soft water areas in the south. I couldn't say - so I wouldn't like to generalise. And fewer full microbore systems. You are one of the few. Don't you feel good about that? Fabulous, thanks :-) Neil |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
But before he fits any more rads for me can anybody tell me if
it's possible there is any truth in what he's saying? As the runs of microbore are short (and assuming the radiators are of a normal size) the main difference will be in appearance. I tend to prefer the look of 15mm myself, particularly if done in chromed pipe when visible. If the system is done mainly in microbore, perhaps with a manifold system, then pipe sizing becomes much more critical and has to be carefully calculated. Christian. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"Neil Jones" wrote in message ... "IMM" wrote in message ... "David Hearn" wrote in message ... "Please do not comment on issues you clearly know nothing about." Living in the South (Surrey) I can confirm that plenty of people here have microbore. Full systems or microbore (soft copper) runs to individual rads? A full mircobore system has manifolds, etc. There are some in the south but few and between. Most would have been fitted by a developers. Even if this were true, wouldn't the developer have used a local subbie to install the heating? To their design and drawings provided for them to follow. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"Nick Brooks" wrote in message ... John Rumm wrote: Dave Baker wrote: No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. Indeed. I calculated that the maximum heat transfer through 1m of 8mm pipe is 2.28Kw About 2.5kW. and obviously less through longer pipes so any rad over 2Kw (ie a fairly 'normal 600 x 1200 double) would not reach temperature if fed with microbore Not true. The pipe run is sized to suit. A decent length of 8mm pipe can provide enough heat for a 2.5kW rad with flow/return temp differential of 11C. If running a condensing boiler on the system at 20C differential then approx 4kW of heat will be delivered down a 8mm pipe. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:57:20 +0100, Nick Brooks
wrote: John Rumm wrote: Dave Baker wrote: No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. Indeed. I calculated that the maximum heat transfer through 1m of 8mm pipe is 2.28Kw and obviously less through longer pipes so any rad over 2Kw (ie a fairly 'normal 600 x 1200 double) would not reach temperature if fed with microbore Nick Brooks It's 10mm here....... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:52:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
. Full systems or microbore (soft copper) runs to individual rads? A full mircobore system has manifolds, etc. There are some in the south but few and between. Most would have been fitted by a developers. Get a small local company to do it, and they would shy away as they would not be familiar. You're generalising again. I have an 8mm system with several manifolds. I live in the south and it works well. I know at least two heating engineers in the area who fit them..... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#23
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:52:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote: . Full systems or microbore (soft copper) runs to individual rads? A full mircobore system has manifolds, etc. There are some in the south but few and between. Most would have been fitted by a developers. Get a small local company to do it, and they would shy away as they would not be familiar. You're generalising again. I have an 8mm system with several manifolds. I live in the south and it works well. Fiited with the house no doubt. I know at least two heating engineers in the area who fit them..... You do? You are lucky then. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:57:20 +0100, Nick Brooks wrote: John Rumm wrote: Dave Baker wrote: No it's ********. Nothing can work "better" with less flow. It's easier to bend and fit of course and when time is money that's of the essence. Whether it'll actually harm your system is another matter. If the flow to the rads is sufficient and they all get hot then it's fine. You also can run into limitations if you are talking about radiators with a very large heat output - there comes a point where the microbore will not have the heat supply capacity to get the designed output from the radiator. Indeed. I calculated that the maximum heat transfer through 1m of 8mm pipe is 2.28Kw and obviously less through longer pipes so any rad over 2Kw (ie a fairly 'normal 600 x 1200 double) would not reach temperature if fed with microbore Nick Brooks It's 10mm here....... .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl Doh! missed that - time to get the calculator out again Nick |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 11:54:24 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:52:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote: . Full systems or microbore (soft copper) runs to individual rads? A full mircobore system has manifolds, etc. There are some in the south but few and between. Most would have been fitted by a developers. Get a small local company to do it, and they would shy away as they would not be familiar. You're generalising again. I have an 8mm system with several manifolds. I live in the south and it works well. Fiited with the house no doubt. I specified 8mm microbore and the use of a specific contractor that I knew. I know at least two heating engineers in the area who fit them..... You do? You are lucky then. I think that they are actually. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#26
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
Other than that there is no reason not to mix and match microbore with
15mm provided that sizing is adequate - but that applies to 15mm as well. Does this apply across a single radiator ? I recently moved one which had short runs of microbore to connect the rad to the main 15mm pipe runs. On the input side, I was able to re-use the existing microbore but on the return side I couldn't and ended up with a temporary bodge using 15mm pipe fittings which I had plenty of. I wasn't able to get hold of any microbore at the time and 'bodged' it simply so that I could the rest of the house heated. I had always planned on revisiting this, but as the system is working it has dropped down my list of priorities. I may be imagining it but I don't believe I am getting the same heat output fromt the radiator as I did before. Should I leave everything as is, replace the microbore on the input side with 15mm fittings or replace the 15mm fittings on the return side with microbore. Thanks. |
#27
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
Should I leave everything as is, replace the microbore on the input
side with 15mm fittings or replace the 15mm fittings on the return side with microbore. You should find the heat output will stay the same or fractionally improve with 15mm instead of microbore for one leg. The only reason to replace the pipework is aesthetic. If the output has dropped, it is probably because the lockshield wasn't set to the same position. Open it a fraction. If you do replace the pipework, just change the end that will make it look nicer, provided the microbore was sufficient before. If the radiator never really got hot enough, even with the lockshield fully open, replace with 15mm. Christian. |
#28
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
10mm is fine. It is very usual to bring 10mm to rads from a 15mm feed which in turn comes from a 22mm flow and return. 10mm is also very easy to work with on a DIY basis. All you need is a hand held bender and you're away. It's easier to install than 15mm in many places. Fittings are more expensive though. As for the TRV.... he could have used a 15-10mm resucer and used your TRV so make sure he don't try and charge you for his one. A swap sounds fair though - he may not have had a reducer so fair enough. These days 10mm is used for many other things such as tap feeds. Brand new houses have 10mm tap feeds coming from a 15mm pipe. I used 10mm a lot in my new build. You simply don't need the flow of 15mm unless it's the likes of a bath or shower. |
#29
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
(Lobster) wrote
I left him [plumber] to it this morning and came back to find he'd installed a rad using 10mm microbore; he'd put the 15mm TRV and lockshield valve which I'd supplied to one side, and bought his own 10mm kit instead. I am admittedly predjudiced against microbore as it's harder (IMO, for me) to fit, and I believe more likely to block; so I was a bit hacked off with this, especially as there was no problem at all with access to existing 15mm pipework under the floor. He'd simply fitted lengths of microbore to the ends of the flow and return 15mm pipes using reducers. Keep an eye on things (but don't hawk over his shoulder) and be very specific if you want him to do something in a certain way. I went out and 'left a plumber to it' and I too was a bit hacked off with the results. He'd used pushfit where i'd wanted him to install solder fittings (under a floor I was going to tile over). And up to the point I left he had been doing at my request. He went away, the pushfit is still under there and I won't be re-employing him. Cheers, Paul. |
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"IMM" wrote in message ...
"Nick Brooks" wrote in message ... John Rumm wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Indeed. I calculated that the maximum heat transfer through 1m of 8mm pipe is 2.28Kw About 2.5kW. Not true. The pipe run is sized to suit. A decent length of 8mm pipe can provide enough heat for a 2.5kW rad with flow/return temp differential of 11C. If running a condensing boiler on the system at 20C differential then approx 4kW of heat will be delivered down a 8mm pipe. Surely this all depends on pump pressure/flow and the pipe resistance of the whole circuit, not just the 1m etc of microbore. No? Regards, NT |
#31
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
"N. Thornton" wrote in message om... "IMM" wrote in message ... "Nick Brooks" wrote in message ... John Rumm wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Indeed. I calculated that the maximum heat transfer through 1m of 8mm pipe is 2.28Kw About 2.5kW. Not true. The pipe run is sized to suit. A decent length of 8mm pipe can provide enough heat for a 2.5kW rad with flow/return temp differential of 11C. If running a condensing boiler on the system at 20C differential then approx 4kW of heat will be delivered down a 8mm pipe. Surely this all depends on pump pressure/flow and the pipe resistance of the whole circuit, not just the 1m etc of microbore. No? yep. |
#32
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Microbore CH better than 15mm - says plumber
N. Thornton wrote:
"IMM" wrote in message ... "Nick Brooks" wrote in message ... John Rumm wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Indeed. I calculated that the maximum heat transfer through 1m of 8mm pipe is 2.28Kw About 2.5kW. Not true. The pipe run is sized to suit. A decent length of 8mm pipe can provide enough heat for a 2.5kW rad with flow/return temp differential of 11C. If running a condensing boiler on the system at 20C differential then approx 4kW of heat will be delivered down a 8mm pipe. Surely this all depends on pump pressure/flow and the pipe resistance of the whole circuit, not just the 1m etc of microbore. No? Regards, NT Of course, I assumed a linear flow rate of 1.5m/s. and a temperature difference of 10 degrees. The reason for using 1m of pipe in the calculations is to give a maximum possible heat transfer. Other losses in the system will reduce this. Nick Brooks |
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