Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

I still can't see how filling the machine with cold water and
electrically heating it is going to be any more efficient than tapping
off a little of the already-heated water from my gas-fired HW storage
system.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... As I said before, I never repeat myself.

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

I still can't see how filling the machine with cold water and
electrically heating it is going to be any more efficient than tapping
off a little of the already-heated water from my gas-fired HW storage
system.





There are three main reasons:

1) If you put hot water directly onto anything where a protein is
present e.g. egg or egg containing foods, it will set it onto the item
and make it harder to remove. Therefore rinsing with cold water and
then starting a wash cycle with cold water will remove much of the
protein first.

2) Modern dishwasher detergents are designed to work based on contact
time with the contents, whereas older detergents were essentially an
abrasive that was blasted onto the contents. Thus heating from cold
gives a longer cycle. It also allows machines to be designed to run
more quietly because they don't need such high pressure blasting the
contents.

3) Modern dishwashers use very little water , so much of what will
come from a DHW cylinder will be the contents of the pipes and cold
anyway. Since the water volume is smaller than it used to be,
electricity consumtion is reduced anyway.


For washing machines with modern detergents and fabrics, most washes
are fairly cool as well, so there is less and less need to fill them
with hot water either.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?
snip
For washing machines with modern detergents and fabrics, most washes
are fairly cool as well, so there is less and less need to fill them
with hot water either.

I stuck an electricity consumption meter on my washing machine at
40C wash.
It used about half a unit heating the water.
So, maybe a saving of 3p/wash if gas heated.
At a wash every couple of days, that's around 5 quid a year.
Not utterly negligable, but non-zero.
Probably more important would be the reduction in time spent heating water
cutting 20 minutes off a cycle.

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

Our washing machine has a hot and cold feed, but only takes hot water for a
boil wash. I suppose there could be a risk of too hot water hitting clothes
that can't take it. Or the cost of something that accurately measures and
adjusts hot/cold ratio on filling.

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:47:41 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?
snip
For washing machines with modern detergents and fabrics, most washes
are fairly cool as well, so there is less and less need to fill them
with hot water either.

I stuck an electricity consumption meter on my washing machine at
40C wash.
It used about half a unit heating the water.
So, maybe a saving of 3p/wash if gas heated.
At a wash every couple of days, that's around 5 quid a year.
Not utterly negligable, but non-zero.
Probably more important would be the reduction in time spent heating water
cutting 20 minutes off a cycle.


Sure? How would you differentiate from what the motor uses?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:47:41 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?
snip
For washing machines with modern detergents and fabrics, most washes
are fairly cool as well, so there is less and less need to fill them
with hot water either.

I stuck an electricity consumption meter on my washing machine at
40C wash.
It used about half a unit heating the water.
So, maybe a saving of 3p/wash if gas heated.
At a wash every couple of days, that's around 5 quid a year.
Not utterly negligable, but non-zero.
Probably more important would be the reduction in time spent heating water
cutting 20 minutes off a cycle.


Sure? How would you differentiate from what the motor uses?

Guess, based on current load with motor+heater in use (some 11.5A, and off
at around 11A)
Probably a little more.
The total used was 0.66 units.

In article ,
"Suz" writes:

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

Our washing machine has a hot and cold feed, but only takes hot water for a
boil wash. I suppose there could be a risk of too hot water hitting clothes
that can't take it. Or the cost of something that accurately measures and
adjusts hot/cold ratio on filling.

Modern washing detergents require a profiled temperature wash.
They contain various enzymes, each designed to break down a
different kind of dirt, but each with a different operating
temperature. For the enzymes to work, the water must be heated
slowly or in stages, allowing time for enzymes to operate before
going above the point where that enzyme is destroyed. They are
all well destroyed by 60C anyway -- they are intended to give
good results at 35-40C, and will work better on many types of
soiling than a 60C wash which relies on the detergent alone.

I have a microprocessor controlled Hotpoint, and that does
indeed mix the hot and cold aiming for a 30C fill temperature,
which is the starting point for the profiled temperature wash.
It starts with cold only, but then starts mixing in hot. If
the hot water actually isn't vert hot at all, it ends up
shutting off the cold and filling just with the hot.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In message ,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?


There are three main reasons:

1) If you put hot water directly onto anything where a protein is
present e.g. egg or egg containing foods, it will set it onto the item
and make it harder to remove.

I must apologise for causing you to rewrite something you only wrote a
few days ago! I don't know how I missed the other thread - I'd been
looking out for one :-/

Please note that I'm not suggesting, as the other poster did, that a
dishwasher should only fill with hot, but that there should be both hot
and cold feeds available. A washing machine's pre-wash for example, uses
cold, but the main wash might use hot. Does a dishwasher only fill
once, or does it do as a washing machine does and fill several times,
at different temperatures? If I have already heated water I feel a bit
cheated that I have to heat more, particularly if I have gone to the
trouble of lagging the hot supply pipes or installing a HW loop.

If modern detergents are so good in cold water, why do we need hot at
all? Design the darned machines without a heater, or at least without a
programme hotter than 30C.

But (to return to washing machines for a second) I for one would not
feel entirely happy washing my children's nappies at 30C - I *need* that
90C wash :-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Set phasers on tickle!

In message ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
"Suz" writes:

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

Our washing machine has a hot and cold feed, but only takes hot water for a
boil wash. I suppose there could be a risk of too hot water hitting clothes
that can't take it. Or the cost of something that accurately measures and
adjusts hot/cold ratio on filling.

Modern washing detergents require a profiled temperature wash.
They contain various enzymes, each designed to break down a
different kind of dirt, but each with a different operating
temperature. For the enzymes to work, the water must be heated
slowly or in stages, allowing time for enzymes to operate before
going above the point where that enzyme is destroyed. They are
all well destroyed by 60C anyway -- they are intended to give
good results at 35-40C, and will work better on many types of
soiling than a 60C wash which relies on the detergent alone.

I have a microprocessor controlled Hotpoint, and that does
indeed mix the hot and cold aiming for a 30C fill temperature,
which is the starting point for the profiled temperature wash.
It starts with cold only, but then starts mixing in hot. If
the hot water actually isn't vert hot at all, it ends up
shutting off the cold and filling just with the hot.


That sounds like an excellent idea - I'll have to look out for this sort
of thing when the WM decides to die. Our current (Zanussi) model only
bothers turning on the hot feed for 50C or hotter washes, and only turns
off the cold for a 90C wash. There is usually hot water reasonably
close-by in the pipework :-)

How does your advice and Andy's relate to people like us who don't use
enzyme washing powders? Several people in our family have sensitive skin
and so at the moment (not recommending the brand) we use Fairy which (as
I understand it) is simply a detergent / soap and not "biological" at
all. There is such a plethora of non-bio powders and liquids about that
it must represent quite a large part of the market so presumably there
is also a market for 60C washes.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... He's got a magnet!!! Everybody BACKUP!!!!!!!!

I have a microprocessor controlled Hotpoint, and that does
indeed mix the hot and cold aiming for a 30C fill temperature,
which is the starting point for the profiled temperature wash.
It starts with cold only, but then starts mixing in hot. If
the hot water actually isn't vert hot at all, it ends up
shutting off the cold and filling just with the hot.

Was that an expensive model?

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:22:12 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

In message ,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?


There are three main reasons:

1) If you put hot water directly onto anything where a protein is
present e.g. egg or egg containing foods, it will set it onto the item
and make it harder to remove.

I must apologise for causing you to rewrite something you only wrote a
few days ago! I don't know how I missed the other thread - I'd been
looking out for one :-/


That's OK.

Please note that I'm not suggesting, as the other poster did, that a
dishwasher should only fill with hot, but that there should be both hot
and cold feeds available. A washing machine's pre-wash for example, uses
cold, but the main wash might use hot. Does a dishwasher only fill
once, or does it do as a washing machine does and fill several times,
at different temperatures?

Several times. Could be a pre-wash, a wash, and 2-3 rinses. It
depends on the model and program.


If I have already heated water I feel a bit
cheated that I have to heat more, particularly if I have gone to the
trouble of lagging the hot supply pipes or installing a HW loop.

OK, but that is pretty unusual. Most people don't bother.

The water consumption is also very low.

If modern detergents are so good in cold water, why do we need hot at
all? Design the darned machines without a heater, or at least without a
programme hotter than 30C.

That isn't it. For dishwasher detergents the main issue is contact
time, but temperature is important as well - but not instantly at the
higher temperature. On mine for example, there are wash programs at
55, 65 and 75 degrees. The higher ones tend to get used for heavier
soiling because contact time is longer and the higher temperature,
after a time at cooler temperatures helps as well.



But (to return to washing machines for a second) I for one would not
feel entirely happy washing my children's nappies at 30C - I *need* that
90C wash :-)

That's true, but once you get beyond that stage the number of high
temperature washes drops dramatically.



Hwyl!

M.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:38:08 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:



That sounds like an excellent idea - I'll have to look out for this sort
of thing when the WM decides to die. Our current (Zanussi) model only
bothers turning on the hot feed for 50C or hotter washes, and only turns
off the cold for a 90C wash. There is usually hot water reasonably
close-by in the pipework :-)

How does your advice and Andy's relate to people like us who don't use
enzyme washing powders? Several people in our family have sensitive skin
and so at the moment (not recommending the brand) we use Fairy which (as
I understand it) is simply a detergent / soap and not "biological" at
all. There is such a plethora of non-bio powders and liquids about that
it must represent quite a large part of the market so presumably there
is also a market for 60C washes.

Be careful though.

Look at at care labels on fabrics. There are quite a number where the
item can't be washed at more than 40 degrees anyway because something
bad will happen to them as a result.

Non bio detergents don't *have* to used at 60 degrees - you have to
consider whether they will do the job at lower temperatures or select
fabrics appropriately or use supplementary washing like soaking before
washing.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message ,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:22:12 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:


[...]


Please note that I'm not suggesting, as the other poster did, that a
dishwasher should only fill with hot, but that there should be both hot
and cold feeds available. A washing machine's pre-wash for example, uses
cold, but the main wash might use hot. Does a dishwasher only fill
once, or does it do as a washing machine does and fill several times,
at different temperatures?

Several times. Could be a pre-wash, a wash, and 2-3 rinses. It
depends on the model and program.

Well in that case, and certainly in the interests of a quicker cycle,
does it not make a lot of sense to have hot-fill available? Pre-wash or
rinse in cool water to get rid of yer eggs and things, wash in warm
water (mix hot & cold?) and then the final rinse in water as hot as
possible to help with drying.



If I have already heated water I feel a bit
cheated that I have to heat more, particularly if I have gone to the
trouble of lagging the hot supply pipes or installing a HW loop.

OK, but that is pretty unusual. Most people don't bother.

Well I've got the ceilings down now, so lagging is very easy :-) (any
decent suppliers of 22mm and 15mm insulation?) I don't think I'll go to
the trouble of installing a loop though. We've never previously had a
DW, but the way I imagine us using it involves someone doing large pans
and things in the sink which means that whenever the DW is on, there
will recently have been hot water in the pipework anyway.


The water consumption is also very low.


I suppose the question is, how low? Heating a kettle-full of water
electrically is quick and easy, but the more water, the dafter this idea
becomes...

[...]


But (to return to washing machines for a second) I for one would not
feel entirely happy washing my children's nappies at 30C - I *need* that
90C wash :-)

That's true, but once you get beyond that stage the number of high
temperature washes drops dramatically.



To be honest we're using disposables at the moment as we're living with
relatives while the house is sorted. When it was just the one boy, it
was one load of nappies every 2 or 3 days. For a while it'll be both in
nappies, so it might be a load every day, though #1 is now potty
training.

But it doesn't end there... even when the nappies are finished with
there will be plenty of opportunities for 60C washes, what with puke and
accidental peeing and wetting of beds and the like.

And who knows if we'll stop at 2? ;-) We could be doing nappies for the
next 4 or 5 years. (Eek!)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... I'm not dead; I'm metabolically challenged.

(Andrew Gabriel) wrote in message ...
In article ,
"Suz" writes:

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

Our washing machine has a hot and cold feed, but only takes hot water for a
boil wash. I suppose there could be a risk of too hot water hitting clothes
that can't take it. Or the cost of something that accurately measures and
adjusts hot/cold ratio on filling.

Modern washing detergents require a profiled temperature wash.
They contain various enzymes, each designed to break down a
different kind of dirt, but each with a different operating
temperature. For the enzymes to work, the water must be heated
slowly or in stages, allowing time for enzymes to operate before
going above the point where that enzyme is destroyed. They are
all well destroyed by 60C anyway -- they are intended to give
good results at 35-40C, and will work better on many types of
soiling than a 60C wash which relies on the detergent alone.

I have a microprocessor controlled Hotpoint, and that does
indeed mix the hot and cold aiming for a 30C fill temperature,
which is the starting point for the profiled temperature wash.
It starts with cold only, but then starts mixing in hot. If
the hot water actually isn't vert hot at all, it ends up
shutting off the cold and filling just with the hot.

my new bosch washing machine is cold fill only

3) Modern dishwashers use very little water , so much of what will
come from a DHW cylinder will be the contents of the pipes and cold
anyway. Since the water volume is smaller than it used to be,
electricity consumtion is reduced anyway.


Does this mean that you can use a hot-water supply for a dish-washer ?
I need to relocate my dishwasher temporarily while we rebuild the
kitchen. I already have an unused hot water connection in a
convenient location in the utility room because my new washine machine
only requires a cold feed whereas my old one needed both. It would be
so much easier to use an existing HW supply rather than messing around
putting in a temporary supply for a month or two.

Opinions ?

In article ,
"Suz" writes:

I have a microprocessor controlled Hotpoint, and that does
indeed mix the hot and cold aiming for a 30C fill temperature,
which is the starting point for the profiled temperature wash.
It starts with cold only, but then starts mixing in hot. If
the hot water actually isn't vert hot at all, it ends up
shutting off the cold and filling just with the hot.

Was that an expensive model?

It was the top of the range model ~17 years ago, and I'm very
pleased with it. I worked for GEC and Hotpoint was part of GEC
at the time, and gave good staff discounts -- lots of GEC
staff bought that model.

I would imagine most microprocessor systems (i.e. without the
large rotary programming knob) would behave in a similar way
nowadays, but I haven't actually examined any closely enough
to be sure.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Does this mean that you can use a hot-water supply for a dish-washer ?

No get a Y-piece for the cold connection to connect both washing machine and
dishwasher to that. If you must, check your dishwasher instructions. Mine
says I can use a hot feed limited to 55C maximum temperature (difficult to
achieve with a traditional gravity fed cylinder). If this is done, it states
that it will reduce cycle time by 20 minutes but result in poorer wash
performance.

Christian.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:07:32 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

In message ,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:22:12 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:


[...]


Please note that I'm not suggesting, as the other poster did, that a
dishwasher should only fill with hot, but that there should be both hot
and cold feeds available. A washing machine's pre-wash for example, uses
cold, but the main wash might use hot. Does a dishwasher only fill
once, or does it do as a washing machine does and fill several times,
at different temperatures?

Several times. Could be a pre-wash, a wash, and 2-3 rinses. It
depends on the model and program.

Well in that case, and certainly in the interests of a quicker cycle,
does it not make a lot of sense to have hot-fill available?

No, because washing efficiency depends on contact time

Pre-wash or
rinse in cool water to get rid of yer eggs and things, wash in warm
water (mix hot & cold?) and then the final rinse in water as hot as
possible to help with drying.


The amount of hot water that you would use in this scenario is so
small that it isn't worth bothering. For example, my DW uses 13
litres for the entire cycle. This might mean 4 litres of hot would be
used......



Well I've got the ceilings down now, so lagging is very easy :-) (any
decent suppliers of 22mm and 15mm insulation?)

Any plumber's merchant. Armaflex is good insulation.

I don't think I'll go to
the trouble of installing a loop though. We've never previously had a
DW, but the way I imagine us using it involves someone doing large pans
and things in the sink which means that whenever the DW is on, there
will recently have been hot water in the pipework anyway.

I find that we tend to load the machine as we go and then run it when
full. Usually this results in the larger pans being able to go in
anyway. There is very little that can't go in in terms of everyday
items, but you wouldn't put your fine crystal glassware in.




The water consumption is also very low.


I suppose the question is, how low? Heating a kettle-full of water
electrically is quick and easy, but the more water, the dafter this idea
becomes...

Mine uses 13 litres of water for the entire cycle, so I estimate that
no more than 4 litres of hot would be used.




[...]


But (to return to washing machines for a second) I for one would not
feel entirely happy washing my children's nappies at 30C - I *need* that
90C wash :-)

That's true, but once you get beyond that stage the number of high
temperature washes drops dramatically.



To be honest we're using disposables at the moment as we're living with
relatives while the house is sorted. When it was just the one boy, it
was one load of nappies every 2 or 3 days. For a while it'll be both in
nappies, so it might be a load every day, though #1 is now potty
training.

But it doesn't end there... even when the nappies are finished with
there will be plenty of opportunities for 60C washes, what with puke and
accidental peeing and wetting of beds and the like.

And who knows if we'll stop at 2? ;-) We could be doing nappies for the
next 4 or 5 years. (Eek!)

Should we direct SWMBO to this site? :-)

http://www.restorationfarms.com/stone.htm

It seems that it should work OK with a cordless drill.......






Hwyl!

M.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Martin Angove" wrote
| If modern detergents are so good in cold water, why do we need hot
| at all? Design the darned machines without a heater, or at least
| without a programme hotter than 30C.
| But (to return to washing machines for a second) I for one would not
| feel entirely happy washing my children's nappies at 30C - I *need*
| that 90C wash :-)

I found it useful in the old twin-tub days being able to do a hot whites,
warm colours, cool socks, sequence of washes using only one lot of hot
water. (I wouldn't start off a sequence with nappies though :-).

Owain

Andy Hall wrote
Martin Angove wrote:

3) Modern dishwashers use very little water , so much of what will
come from a DHW cylinder will be the contents of the pipes and cold
anyway. Since the water volume is smaller than it used to be,
electricity consumtion is reduced anyway.

I always run the hot tap through to hot before I turn on the washing
machine. Unless the first thing it does is a cold fill (which I don't
think it does) I should save 0.01p per year using this method ;-)

Cheers,

Paul.

Andy Hall wrote in
:


No, because washing efficiency depends on contact time

Not disagreeing. But there are many commercial dishwashers that use hot
water. Some have a preheating device so that there is ready-heated water
available for the next cycle. This is, of course, to reduce the overall
cycle time and might imply a very heavy electricity supply. They might also
have a more powerful pump, better spray pattern, etc. But are they 'fed' a
different detergent? Considering that pub glass washers can cycle in a few
minutes I suspect that they do - but I am not convinced that it is *that*
different. (Yes - I know that washing a few glasses is different to baked
on stuff - but I don't have first hand experience of other commercial DWs.)

Rod

On 16 Mar 2004 21:24:55 GMT, Rod Hewitt
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in
:


No, because washing efficiency depends on contact time

Not disagreeing. But there are many commercial dishwashers that use hot
water. Some have a preheating device so that there is ready-heated water
available for the next cycle. This is, of course, to reduce the overall
cycle time and might imply a very heavy electricity supply. They might also
have a more powerful pump, better spray pattern, etc. But are they 'fed' a
different detergent? Considering that pub glass washers can cycle in a few
minutes I suspect that they do - but I am not convinced that it is *that*
different. (Yes - I know that washing a few glasses is different to baked
on stuff - but I don't have first hand experience of other commercial DWs.)

Rod

I am sure that the detergent is going to be different. For glass
washing, there are not large amounts of protein to remove - most of
the deposits are sugar based in one form or another.

I suspect that commercial dishwashers use much more aggressive
detergents as well.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote in
:

I am sure that the detergent is going to be different. For glass
washing, there are not large amounts of protein to remove - most of
the deposits are sugar based in one form or another.

Don't forget the lipstick. :-))
And the advocaat.

Rod

Martin Angove wrote in message ...
In message ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
"Suz" writes:

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

Our washing machine has a hot and cold feed, but only takes hot water for a
boil wash. I suppose there could be a risk of too hot water hitting clothes
that can't take it. Or the cost of something that accurately measures and
adjusts hot/cold ratio on filling.

Modern washing detergents require a profiled temperature wash.
They contain various enzymes, each designed to break down a
different kind of dirt, but each with a different operating
temperature. For the enzymes to work, the water must be heated
slowly or in stages, allowing time for enzymes to operate before
going above the point where that enzyme is destroyed. They are
all well destroyed by 60C anyway -- they are intended to give
good results at 35-40C, and will work better on many types of
soiling than a 60C wash which relies on the detergent alone.

I have a microprocessor controlled Hotpoint, and that does
indeed mix the hot and cold aiming for a 30C fill temperature,
which is the starting point for the profiled temperature wash.
It starts with cold only, but then starts mixing in hot. If
the hot water actually isn't vert hot at all, it ends up
shutting off the cold and filling just with the hot.


That sounds like an excellent idea - I'll have to look out for this sort
of thing when the WM decides to die. Our current (Zanussi) model only
bothers turning on the hot feed for 50C or hotter washes, and only turns
off the cold for a 90C wash. There is usually hot water reasonably
close-by in the pipework :-)

How does your advice and Andy's relate to people like us who don't use
enzyme washing powders? Several people in our family have sensitive skin
and so at the moment (not recommending the brand) we use Fairy which (as
I understand it) is simply a detergent / soap and not "biological" at
all. There is such a plethora of non-bio powders and liquids about that
it must represent quite a large part of the market so presumably there
is also a market for 60C washes.

Hwyl!

M.

You could try using ecover washing up liquid, it works well in washing
machines and is not irritant like traditional detergents or soap.

Its one noticeable limitation is it has no antifoaming additive, so
dont put too much in or it may get carried away 2 tablespoons is
somewhere about right for a full load.

It hasnt got all the usual additives in, but still does a decent job.
For grimey stuff just add a spoonful of trad powder as well.

Oh, and dont try using cheap washing liquids.


Regards, NT

N. Thornton wrote:


You could try using ecover washing up liquid, it works well in washing
machines and is not irritant like traditional detergents or soap.

Its one noticeable limitation is it has no antifoaming additive, so
dont put too much in or it may get carried away 2 tablespoons is
somewhere about right for a full load.

It hasnt got all the usual additives in, but still does a decent job.
For grimey stuff just add a spoonful of trad powder as well.

Oh, and dont try using cheap washing liquids.


Regards, NT

Um - why not use Ecover non-bio laundry liquid? I would assume it is no
more irritant than Fairy or wahing up liquid? The Ecover biological
tablets are a bit vicious mind (if you are susceptible to Bio products)

Cheers,

Chris.

--
cut along the dotted line to reply

To be honest we're using disposables at the moment as we're living with
relatives while the house is sorted. When it was just the one boy, it
was one load of nappies every 2 or 3 days. For a while it'll be both in
nappies, so it might be a load every day, though #1 is now potty
training.

But it doesn't end there... even when the nappies are finished with
there will be plenty of opportunities for 60C washes, what with puke and
accidental peeing and wetting of beds and the like.

And who knows if we'll stop at 2? ;-) We could be doing nappies for the
next 4 or 5 years. (Eek!)

Hwyl!

M.

--

We don't use hot washes a lot but we wash constantly. The baby has started
nursery so we have to keep him clean and respectible. And minimise the pink
bibs and stuff.
Got the five year old in beside me as she has the flu and wet the bed. When
they are on their feet the amount of clothes they go through is crazy. The
girls have a fascination with toothpaste that drives me crazy. Had to get
non-fluoride cheap stuff as they going through gallons. They get this on
their clothes and wipe it off on the towel. I wash towels every day now.
Before we had kids it was once a week or fortnight. You have to check the
towel carefully before you use it or you might rub in a nasty suprise.
Caught the three year old, let me see, how can I put this delicately -
wiping her arse on MY towel. "The toilet paper didn't dry it properly".

When I was pregnant with my first, an older man in work with four children
told me how things change with each one:
"When your 1st child spits up on you, you change your clothes and the
child's clothes completely. if it falls over, you panic and you rush
immediately to casualty.
When the 2nd child spits up on you, you change the child's clothes, and give
yours a rub. If it falls over you watch it carefully and take it to casulty
if any large bumps appear.
When the 3rd child spits up on you, you give it and yourself a quick rub. If
it falls over you watch it and if it shows signs of concussion 4 hrs later
you take it casulty.
The 4th child? Well put it like this, when it falls over, it's boggin, and
if there is only a small amount of blood, you say "oh for goodness sake get
up, it's only a wee bump"."

Suzanne

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:16:46 -0000, "Suz" wrote:



We don't use hot washes a lot but we wash constantly. The baby has started
nursery so we have to keep him clean and respectible. And minimise the pink
bibs and stuff.
Got the five year old in beside me as she has the flu and wet the bed. When
they are on their feet the amount of clothes they go through is crazy.

If you think it's bad now, wait until they are teenagers..... :-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

If you think it's bad now, wait until they are teenagers..... :-)

They can wash their own clothes...

Christian.

Not disagreeing. But there are many commercial dishwashers that use hot
water.

Commercial ones are like US domestic ones and have a different operating
principle, roughly akin to sand blasting. It takes a fraction of the time,
is more damaging to the contents and vastly less environmentally friendly
with greater detergent, water and energy use. It is justified in a
commercial setting as the throughput is required and will result in less
crockery (and machines/space) being required. In a domestic setting, such an
operating system is pure environmental selfishness.

Christian.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:53:00 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

If you think it's bad now, wait until they are teenagers..... :-)

They can wash their own clothes...

Christian.



Well they *can*........


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote in message ...
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?



2) Modern dishwasher detergents are designed to work based on contact
time with the contents, whereas older detergents were essentially an
abrasive that was blasted onto the contents. Thus heating from cold
gives a longer cycle. It also allows machines to be designed to run
more quietly because they don't need such high pressure blasting the
contents.


For washing machines with modern detergents and fabrics, most washes
are fairly cool as well, so there is less and less need to fill them
with hot water either.


FWIW, I always plumb in the dishwasher on the hot supply, its fill water
only gets hot on the rinse cycles under normal circumstances( run
overnight). It's interesting to note that the Which tests on dishwashers
indicated that the results are only as good as the highest temperature of
the water. IMO, low temperature washing of dishes or white clothes is a PC
exercise, leading to poor cleaning standards actually being achieved. If you
want to see decent white cottons, boil them in Persil! When coloured
clothes are washed at low (30C) temperatures, the effect of the low
temperature detergents is frequently to degrade the dyes used and produce a
washed out look after only a few washes. Washing at 30C also does not kill
bacteria!!

Washing machines are starting to come with only cold feeds. This is a cost
reduction exercise, unrelated to how well they work!

Regards
Capitol

Chris wrote in message .. .
N. Thornton wrote:

You could try using ecover washing up liquid, it works well in washing
machines and is not irritant like traditional detergents or soap.

Its one noticeable limitation is it has no antifoaming additive, so
dont put too much in or it may get carried away 2 tablespoons is
somewhere about right for a full load.

It hasnt got all the usual additives in, but still does a decent job.
For grimey stuff just add a spoonful of trad powder as well.

Oh, and dont try using cheap washing liquids.


Um - why not use Ecover non-bio laundry liquid? I would assume it is no
more irritant than Fairy or wahing up liquid? The Ecover biological
tablets are a bit vicious mind (if you are susceptible to Bio products)


The only reason I didnt suggest it was just that I dont know whats in
it or how effective it is, and it is less available than ecover
washing liquid.

FWIW it wont be similar to Fairy etc.


Regards, NT

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 +0000, Martin Angove wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?
Because most dishwashers have a water softener built-in which has to be
correctly set.
I have a Bosch and when talking to their technical department on another
matter, I inadvertently mentioned that I had connected it to my "soft"
cold water feed that went to my washing machine. I was told that this
would cause a problem with corrosion as the water would be doubled
softened by the dishwasher and he seemed quite adamant about it!

I still can't see how filling the machine with cold water and
electrically heating it is going to be any more efficient than tapping
off a little of the already-heated water from my gas-fired HW storage
system.

Hwyl!

M.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:43:02 +0100, Peter Hemmings
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 +0000, Martin Angove wrote:

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?
Because most dishwashers have a water softener built-in which has to be
correctly set.
I have a Bosch and when talking to their technical department on another
matter, I inadvertently mentioned that I had connected it to my "soft"
cold water feed that went to my washing machine. I was told that this
would cause a problem with corrosion as the water would be doubled
softened by the dishwasher and he seemed quite adamant about it!


That's a good one.

The simple solution is not to put salt in the dishwasher's softener.
If you are feeding the DW with softened water, its built in ion
exchange bed won't do anything anyway because there won't be any
(appreciable) calcium or magnesium ions to exchange for sodium.

Hence it does not need to be regenerated.

If the main softener is working properly, there is no such thing as
"double softening"...



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Since dishwashers have some quite hot programmes, why is it that they
usually only have a cold feed? Washing machines rarely come without a
hot feed, why not dishwashers?

Hot water feed to d/w is advised against as it sets proteins, making
washing less efficient - in my Bosch, there is a heat exchanger which uses the
heat from the outgoing to warm the cold feed coming in for the next phase and
stores it in a transfer tank - the amount it uses anyway is pretty insignificant.

Nick

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:43:02 +0100, Peter Hemmings
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:31 +0000, Martin Angove wrote: