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Pete
 
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Default Ripped off by a plumber

I wondered if this was a common con, and whether I have any
case against the plumber?

About a year ago I called a plumber because the gas solenoid
valve on my Glowworm Galaxie back boiler died. Just before
the plumber left he switched the pump to maximum speed -
didn't think much of it at the time (didn't know enough about
plumping) and assumed he knew what he was doing...

Two weeks ago one of the downstairs radiators started leaking
- there was literally a fountain of water gushing from a hole
in the rad which had corroded from the inside.

Discovered the system has been "pumping over" for about a year.
The CH tank was full of steaming hot water and 3" depth of
brown sludge. Turned down the pump, cleaned out the tank,
replaced the rad and added corrosion inhibitor.

This morning another radiator started leaking, again, corroded
from the inside.


I'll take this up with trading standards and CORGI. In the
mean time, is there anything else I need to do apart from
replacing all the radiators? Is the boiler at risk too?

Pete.
  #2   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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Default Ripped off by a plumber

On 21 Mar 2004 09:49:02 -0800, (Pete)
wrote:

I wondered if this was a common con, and whether I have any
case against the plumber?


I'm not sure that you can say that this was a con, because he could
have upped the pump setting in good faith to increase flow through the
boiler.

However he should have checked that it wasn't pumping over.

I think that it would be hard to prove that he had deliberately set up
a situation to cause radiator corrosion and hence more work.


About a year ago I called a plumber because the gas solenoid
valve on my Glowworm Galaxie back boiler died. Just before
the plumber left he switched the pump to maximum speed -
didn't think much of it at the time (didn't know enough about
plumping) and assumed he knew what he was doing...

Two weeks ago one of the downstairs radiators started leaking
- there was literally a fountain of water gushing from a hole
in the rad which had corroded from the inside.

Discovered the system has been "pumping over" for about a year.


Can you be sure it wasn't longer? Turning the pump down again would
be a reasonable indicator.

How old are the radiators? If they are say 18 months old and pumping
over was for a year then one might have an argument.

OTOH, if they are 20 years old and perhaps there was no corrosion
inhibitor for mush of that time then it would be hard to attribute the
failure to the plumber.


The CH tank was full of steaming hot water and 3" depth of
brown sludge. Turned down the pump, cleaned out the tank,
replaced the rad and added corrosion inhibitor.

This morning another radiator started leaking, again, corroded
from the inside.


I'll take this up with trading standards and CORGI.


Try it, but I suspect you would be onto a loser.

One can argue that the year of pumping over almost certainly caused
corrosion. It would be hard to attribute 100% blame to the plumber.
You could try taking him to the Small Claims division of the court,
and might get something for doing so.

In the
mean time, is there anything else I need to do apart from
replacing all the radiators? Is the boiler at risk too?


It could be, but less likely.

The system certainly needs a very thorough clean though.

As you've deduced, changing all the radiators before they fail makes
good sense....









Pete.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
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Dave Baker
 
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Default Ripped off by a plumber

Subject: Ripped off by a plumber
From: (Pete)
Date: 21/03/04 17:49 GMT Standard Time
Message-id:

I wondered if this was a common con, and whether I have any
case against the plumber?

About a year ago I called a plumber because the gas solenoid
valve on my Glowworm Galaxie back boiler died. Just before
the plumber left he switched the pump to maximum speed -
didn't think much of it at the time (didn't know enough about
plumping) and assumed he knew what he was doing...

Two weeks ago one of the downstairs radiators started leaking
- there was literally a fountain of water gushing from a hole
in the rad which had corroded from the inside.

Discovered the system has been "pumping over" for about a year.
The CH tank was full of steaming hot water and 3" depth of
brown sludge. Turned down the pump, cleaned out the tank,
replaced the rad and added corrosion inhibitor.

This morning another radiator started leaking, again, corroded
from the inside.


I'll take this up with trading standards and CORGI. In the
mean time, is there anything else I need to do apart from
replacing all the radiators? Is the boiler at risk too?


There's no way it's the plumber's fault or done deliberately. If the system is
piped correctly it shouldn't overflow anyway. You possibly have the overflow
pipe on the pressure side of the pump rather than the return side. Maybe at
some time in the past a new pump was fitted the other way round from the
original one.

As an aside. When I got my system running again after a year without heating
due to renovations I found it was cycling into the header tank as well. By
chance I had to get something out of the loft about three weeks after starting
up the boiler again. The loft was wringing wet with condensation, all the boxes
stored up there were damp and mouldy and the header tank was boiling hot. I
followed the pipework through and my overflow was on the pressure side of the
pump too. In fact the loft has always been very damp so I think my problem has
existed since the pump was changed 10 years ago and maybe fitted the wrong way
round. Rather than eff about for too long I dug out an old radiator valve,
stuck it on the 15mm overflow pipe with a new olive and turned the bugger off.
Hasn't made a scrap of difference to how the system works. The loft is now bone
dry too which is nice.

If you think about it the system can blow off excess pressure or water through
the fill pipe just as well as it can through the overflow pipe and you have the
advantage of a head of water to stop the pump forcing anything out in normal
operation. I'm now beginning to wonder if there's any point in having an
overflow pipe in the first place. Comments welcome.

As to your rads corroding through. They won't have done that in a year
regardless of how the system was operating. I've had no inhibitor in mine for
17 years, for the last 10 at least I've had overpumping into the header and one
rad has only just finally succumbed to corrosion. The boiler is still mint
inside because I had a look while the system was apart.


Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (
www.pumaracing.co.uk)
I'm not at all sure why women like men. We're argumentative, childish,
unsociable and extremely unappealing naked. I'm quite grateful they do though.
  #4   Report Post  
Jerry.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ripped off by a plumber


"Pete" wrote in message
m...
I wondered if this was a common con, and whether I have any
case against the plumber?

About a year ago I called a plumber because the gas solenoid
valve on my Glowworm Galaxie back boiler died. Just before
the plumber left he switched the pump to maximum speed -
didn't think much of it at the time (didn't know enough about
plumping) and assumed he knew what he was doing...

Two weeks ago one of the downstairs radiators started leaking
- there was literally a fountain of water gushing from a hole
in the rad which had corroded from the inside.

Discovered the system has been "pumping over" for about a year.
The CH tank was full of steaming hot water and 3" depth of
brown sludge. Turned down the pump, cleaned out the tank,
replaced the rad and added corrosion inhibitor.

This morning another radiator started leaking, again, corroded
from the inside.


I'll take this up with trading standards and CORGI. In the
mean time, is there anything else I need to do apart from
replacing all the radiators? Is the boiler at risk too?


Sorry, but how is a corroded rad anything to do with what the plumber did,
I'm no fan of them, but I really do fail to see the connection ! All steel
components are at risk, they were before the plumber even knew of you, and
they would have been at risk even if the plumber had not touched the pump.

Even if I'm wrong about the pump setting, you can of course prove that the
plumber increased the pump speed and not some else ?
Did you not anti corrosion in you system before now, if not why not, and how
did fixing a faulty gas valve and changing the pump setting affect this
?....

IMO, basically you are looking for someone to blame, your plumber is not
that person and I suspect any TS or CORGI office will agree.


  #5   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ripped off by a plumber

On 21 Mar 2004 20:24:54 GMT, a (Dave Baker) wrote:



As an aside. When I got my system running again after a year without heating
due to renovations I found it was cycling into the header tank as well. By
chance I had to get something out of the loft about three weeks after starting
up the boiler again. The loft was wringing wet with condensation, all the boxes
stored up there were damp and mouldy and the header tank was boiling hot. I
followed the pipework through and my overflow was on the pressure side of the
pump too. In fact the loft has always been very damp so I think my problem has
existed since the pump was changed 10 years ago and maybe fitted the wrong way
round. Rather than eff about for too long I dug out an old radiator valve,
stuck it on the 15mm overflow pipe with a new olive and turned the bugger off.
Hasn't made a scrap of difference to how the system works. The loft is now bone
dry too which is nice.

If you think about it the system can blow off excess pressure or water through
the fill pipe just as well as it can through the overflow pipe and you have the
advantage of a head of water to stop the pump forcing anything out in normal
operation. I'm now beginning to wonder if there's any point in having an
overflow pipe in the first place. Comments welcome.


This is dangerous unless the rest of the system has been designed to
work with such an arrangement.

You had better hope that the boiler cutouts never fail and it
boils......




As to your rads corroding through. They won't have done that in a year
regardless of how the system was operating. I've had no inhibitor in mine for
17 years,


... that is a false economy....

for the last 10 at least I've had overpumping into the header and one
rad has only just finally succumbed to corrosion.


Expect to change the rest in the coming year or so at a cost many
times that of buying some inhibitor.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


  #6   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
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Default Ripped off by a plumber

In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
Sorry, but how is a corroded rad anything to do with what the plumber
did, I'm no fan of them, but I really do fail to see the connection !
All steel components are at risk, they were before the plumber even knew
of you, and they would have been at risk even if the plumber had not
touched the pump.


An open heating system, done correctly, will use very little water -
indeed Servowarm didn't supply any cold water feed to the header tank, you
just topped it up every few years. So there's no air in the water, and
without oxygen, steel can't corrode. But if you allow the system to pump
over, this aerates the water and *will* cause corrosion.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, try management *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #7   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ripped off by a plumber

In article ,
Dave Baker wrote:
There's no way it's the plumber's fault or done deliberately. If the
system is piped correctly it shouldn't overflow anyway. You possibly
have the overflow pipe on the pressure side of the pump rather than the
return side. Maybe at some time in the past a new pump was fitted the
other way round from the original one.


Pumps aren't individually sized - they are adjustable to provide just
enough head to feed the highest rad while not pumping over. And a
correctly implemented one can still pump over if set too high.

As an aside. When I got my system running again after a year without
heating due to renovations I found it was cycling into the header tank
as well. By chance I had to get something out of the loft about three
weeks after starting up the boiler again. The loft was wringing wet with
condensation, all the boxes stored up there were damp and mouldy and the
header tank was boiling hot. I followed the pipework through and my
overflow was on the pressure side of the pump too. In fact the loft has
always been very damp so I think my problem has existed since the pump
was changed 10 years ago and maybe fitted the wrong way round. Rather
than eff about for too long I dug out an old radiator valve, stuck it on
the 15mm overflow pipe with a new olive and turned the bugger off.
Hasn't made a scrap of difference to how the system works. The loft is
now bone dry too which is nice.


Think you might have a problem if the water boils. It shouldn't unless the
boiler overheat thermostat fails closed, but if it does, you could have a
nasty. The expansion pipe is there for a reason. Also, as the water
expands, it will do so into the open top tank and be aerated, and drawn
back in as it cools. Not a good idea.

If you think about it the system can blow off excess pressure or water
through the fill pipe just as well as it can through the overflow pipe
and you have the advantage of a head of water to stop the pump forcing
anything out in normal operation. I'm now beginning to wonder if there's
any point in having an overflow pipe in the first place. Comments
welcome.


As to your rads corroding through. They won't have done that in a year
regardless of how the system was operating. I've had no inhibitor in
mine for 17 years, for the last 10 at least I've had overpumping into
the header and one rad has only just finally succumbed to corrosion. The
boiler is still mint inside because I had a look while the system was
apart.


--
*If you don't like the news, go out and make some.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #8   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ripped off by a plumber

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:38:16 +0000, Jerry. wrote:


"Pete" wrote in message
m...
I wondered if this was a common con, and whether I have any
case against the plumber?

About a year ago I called a plumber because the gas solenoid
valve on my Glowworm Galaxie back boiler died. Just before
the plumber left he switched the pump to maximum speed -
didn't think much of it at the time (didn't know enough about
plumping) and assumed he knew what he was doing...

Two weeks ago one of the downstairs radiators started leaking
- there was literally a fountain of water gushing from a hole
in the rad which had corroded from the inside.

Discovered the system has been "pumping over" for about a year.
The CH tank was full of steaming hot water and 3" depth of
brown sludge. Turned down the pump, cleaned out the tank,
replaced the rad and added corrosion inhibitor.

This morning another radiator started leaking, again, corroded
from the inside.


I'll take this up with trading standards and CORGI. In the
mean time, is there anything else I need to do apart from
replacing all the radiators? Is the boiler at risk too?


Sorry, but how is a corroded rad anything to do with what the plumber

did,

It has everything to do with what he did! However the age of the boiler
and radiators is such that they were probably fairly corroded before he
began but initiating pumping-over will only have accelerated the rad's
demise.

I would expect the boiler to be at risk over a period of perhaps 10 years
or so from pumping over the failure would be from a leaking heat
exchanger.

It is possible due to the age of the boiler (c. 20 years) that there was
considerable kettling and the plumber tried to help things along with a
higher pump setting.

Having said that there should be no pumping over on a correctly installed
system and that brings the possibility that the last year was likely not the
only time that this occurred.


Even if I'm wrong about the pump setting, you can of course prove that the
plumber increased the pump speed and not some else ?
Did you not anti corrosion in you system before now, if not why not, and how
did fixing a faulty gas valve and changing the pump setting affect this
?....

IMO, basically you are looking for someone to blame, your plumber is not
that person and I suspect any TS or CORGI office will agree.


The bottom line is that a COMPLETE new system is now required (the copper
pipes are reuseable after flushing).

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html


  #9   Report Post  
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ripped off by a plumber

Thanks for the useful advice and thanks to everyone who replied.

I'm sure I don't stand a cat in hell's chance of any comeback against
this company. The system was not pumping over before the plumber called
as I checked everything the month before. The second rad that went was
only 4 years old. With the pump switched from setting 3 (full) down to
2 the tank is now stone cold.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind this was done deliberately.

This ******* has cost me a lot of work and hundreds of pounds. I will
be taking it up with CORGI and Sutton Trading Standards - if only to
make them aware of this company.

A damn good scam really, a simple flick of a switch, noone can prove
anything, and in most cases repeat business next year. I shudder to
think how many other people they've done this to...

All the best, Pete.
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