After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

B*stards.

Thank you for listening.



K

"anon" wrote in message
news
After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

B*stards.


Yes; it is grim. I presume these guys are too busy or do not like what you
want them to do (too small or too fiddly or too hard) but it is really grim
when they say they will do X and then never get back to you. It would be
better if they were less polite and simply bluntly said they were not
interested.

I heard of one lady (in Ireland) who showed a plumber a job (something small
and fiddly) and the plumber said hang on a moment, and went to his van to
get a tool and simply drove off. This was why I learned to do small
plumbing jobs.



Thank you for listening.



K

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:51:15 +0100, anon wrote:

After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

B*stards.

Thank you for listening.



K

Wait 'til they turn up and start work, then you'll really have
something to moan about
--
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to mail me.

"Des Higgins" wrote in message
...

"anon" wrote in message
news
After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

B*stards.


Yes; it is grim. I presume these guys are too busy or do not like what
you
want them to do (too small or too fiddly or too hard) but it is really
grim
when they say they will do X and then never get back to you. It would be
better if they were less polite and simply bluntly said they were not
interested.

I heard of one lady (in Ireland) who showed a plumber a job (something
small
and fiddly) and the plumber said hang on a moment, and went to his van to
get a tool and simply drove off. This was why I learned to do small
plumbing jobs.

P.S. I hasten to add that given a choice between paying a good plumber to do
a job and me doing it myself, I would go for the plumber every time, except
for little things that I have now figured out for myself and from reading
this newsgroup.





Thank you for listening.



K

"Huge" wrote in message
...
anon writes:
After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

You need to remember Huge's 50% rule(s);

1. 50% of the people you call won't return the call.
2. 50% of the people who return your call won't turn up to give an
estimate.
3. 50% of those who turn up to do an estimate won't actually send one.
4. 50% of the estimates will be nonsense.
5. 50% of the people you commission to do work won't turn up.


And
6. 50% of people who ask for an estimate won't accept it, how ever
reasonable the price is. One has to ask WTF they bothered to waste the
'tradesman' time...

You need to remember Huge's 50% rule(s);

1. 50% of the people you call won't return the call.
2. 50% of the people who return your call won't turn up to give an
estimate.
3. 50% of those who turn up to do an estimate won't actually send one.
4. 50% of the estimates will be nonsense.
5. 50% of the people you commission to do work won't turn up.

So you need to call 64 brickies to get one to come.

Don't get me started on this... :-)

Totally agree - in fact, if anything you're being a bit optimistic! I
recently called 17 different plumbers to quote for some relatively simple
work (installation of a new soil stack). Of the 17 I tried to call, I only
managed to get through to 5 (either though me contacting them directly or
them returning my call). Of those 5, only 2 bothered to turn up to spec
things out. Of those 2, only 1 bothered got back to me with a quote. It
was astronomical and there was a 2 month waiting list.

Same story with builders... and roofers... and plasterers...

If they demonstrated the *slightest* incling of customer service, I might
have *some* sympathy for them when they go bust in a couple of years time,
when the property market cools down a bit and everyone's learned how to do
it themselves anyway... ******** to them - it's not rocket science.

(apart from plastering, which is a black art...)

Andy

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:23:47 +0100, Pecanfan wrote:

You need to remember Huge's 50% rule(s);

1. 50% of the people you call won't return the call. 2. 50% of the
people who return your call won't turn up to give an
estimate.
3. 50% of those who turn up to do an estimate won't actually send one.
4. 50% of the estimates will be nonsense. 5. 50% of the people you
commission to do work won't turn up.

So you need to call 64 brickies to get one to come.

I had a better experience with plasterers in S. London.

Called loads, half said that they didn't want such a small job (kitchen
ceiling). Nearly half said they were too busy. 1 said he was too busy but
if I was stuck he might be able to fit it in.

Last bloke said he was OK, turned up, gave estimate, came and did job and
communicated throughout (I wasn't resident in flat at the time due to
impending sale). So I did have some of the 50%'s of Huge's Law but I
didn't get any time wasting.

Course, it was an insurance job so he probably quoted from "scale B" so
got a bit more profit. Also, I did say he could do the job when he liked -
weekends, evenings (later the better to p*ss off the neighbour above who
caused the job by having knackered plumbing - ha!)

They're not *all* bad...

Maybe I was lucky.

Timbo

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:54:57 +0000, Huge wrote:

anon writes:
After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

You need to remember Huge's 50% rule(s);

1. 50% of the people you call won't return the call.
2. 50% of the people who return your call won't turn up to give an estimate.
3. 50% of those who turn up to do an estimate won't actually send one.
4. 50% of the estimates will be nonsense.
5. 50% of the people you commission to do work won't turn up.

So you need to call 64 brickies to get one to come.

From the other side of this:

A new customer is a risk - will they pay.
Will they be pleased/****ed off with a good job for a reasonable fee?
Will they start arguing the toss at every opportunity?

A house/flat I'm familiar with - I already know the approx size
exact layout, age, type of construction, likely problems. This means
that when someone rings up I can usually visualize the job, the size,
difficulty and likely inventory required to do the job.
This saves an unpaid reccy.

I am much more likely to respond to someone who says.
"So and so says you did a good job and I wondered if you could also do the
same for me?"
than
"I got you number from CORGI (I'm not in any other listings)..."

I am much more likely to want to respond to a specific known (profitable)
requests like "I want a landlords' gas ticket" rather than "there is some
damp coming in can you look at it?"

I am much more likely to respond to an unknown neighbour than someone
unknown further away.

If these are true for me they are likely to be true for other workmen.

So
1) When you have a reasonable tradesman - treat with respect don't argue
the toss. After all they are doing something for you that you can't or
don't want to do, or maybe you time more valuable than theirs?

2) Seek someone that has done satisfactory work for a local friend of yours.

3) Have a specific list of tasks to do rather than could you have a look at
this...

4) When you can trust a workman to be dilligent offer/accept a time and
materials basis this is mutually fairer and stops the gambling on unseen
problems and/or corner cutting.




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:51:15 +0100, anon wrote:

After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

B*stards.

Thank you for listening.



K

Where I live, they don't call, one day they just appear and get
started. Its strange to get used to.

Rick

Where I live, they don't call, one day they just appear and get
started. Its strange to get used to.

Where do your live, Rick?

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:59:07 GMT, (Anna Kettle)
wrote:

Where I live, they don't call, one day they just appear and get
started. Its strange to get used to.

Where do your live, Rick?

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642


This is in North Wales, where most of the people who work neer where
they live are farmers with a trade on the side, or builders who are
fed up traveling to the cites to do jobs they don't get paid for -
that is a very long list.

For example, I want a hedge cutting, its buy a petrol hedge cutter -
200 quid, or rent a 4wd mega machine, with driver that cuts it in an
hour or so - 20 quid.

I wanted a fence doing, they guy came, we agreed a price, he said he
would be back. One day he rolls up, un-anounced, tractor, posts etc,
and whips the thing up - no messing - I had no idea he would ever come
back - too much city life I guess.

Brickie, told him I needed some help with using real stone rather than
bricks, he rolled over one day, an hour on the phone and his mate
turns up with a tractor and trailer of sand, and we are off. Again I
had no idea he would actually turn up.

The list goes on, the best was when I screwed up digger driving, I
phoned a friend of a friend, who said he would call back. 30 mins
later this old guy turns up, a friend of his friend, and drives the
thing like a mad man - got the job done though.

All the local farmers have a machine or two, they rent them out to
each other, so one guy cuts the hedges for 10 farms, one pupms sewage
for 50, one cuts corn for 20 etc .........

Rick

This is in North Wales, where most of the people who work neer where
they live are farmers ..
SNIP
....All the local farmers have a machine or two, they rent them out to
each other, so one guy cuts the hedges for 10 farms, one pupms sewage
for 50, one cuts corn for 20 etc .........

Rick

Same here in the Cumbrian bit of the Yorkshire Dales. Milkman who fits
carpets; potter who plasters etc. Once you find out who does what and
if you can cope with the unusual business arrangements and timings it
works well (unfortunately all the plumbers in the area are full-timers
and the rot has set in...)

tony

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:54:57 +0000, Huge wrote:

anon writes:
After moving house in the last couple of weeks and rushing to get the
house sorted before the arrival of my first child I am amazed by the
number of tradesmen who never call you back with quotes etc.

You need to remember Huge's 50% rule(s);

1. 50% of the people you call won't return the call.
2. 50% of the people who return your call won't turn up to give an
estimate.
3. 50% of those who turn up to do an estimate won't actually send one.
4. 50% of the estimates will be nonsense.
5. 50% of the people you commission to do work won't turn up.

So you need to call 64 brickies to get one to come.

From the other side of this:


I have spent years out of my life looking for plumbers (in 4 different
houses).
In 3 of the houses, the guy who worked out best (turned up and knew what he
was doing and charged a reasonable fee) was local. One was simply "the
village plumber" and it was merely a case of discovering this from asking
neighbours.
Another was from the yellow pages but in a city (Cork) and I chose a bloke
who had a home address just up the road. As you said below, he came. By
luck, he turned out to be brilliant but very busy.
The most recent one (Dublin), was from the nearest plumbers outfit.

So, what you say is true, look for someone nearby and/or ask around.
Otherwise, finding plumbers is scary. You feel you are asking them to do
something immoral. They also vary enormously in experience and common
sense. Fortunately, I now know a little about plumbing and can
guess what I need a plumber to do. For some folks though, it is not as
clear cut (little ole ladies with the central heating not quite working
right).

Des



A new customer is a risk - will they pay.
Will they be pleased/****ed off with a good job for a reasonable fee?
Will they start arguing the toss at every opportunity?

SNIP

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article , Pecanfan
URL:mailto
Totally agree - in fact, if anything you're being a bit optimistic! I
recently called 17 different plumbers to quote for some relatively simple
work (installation of a new soil stack).

So you want 17 people to come round and give you a price, at their expense,
for you to choose the (apparent) cheapest? Now do you see why they aren't
interested?

We will not site survey now without payment of our standard callout fee. It
is credited in full against the work carried out and means that the
engineers time doesn't get wasted on those who either want a cheap job, or
who are just filling the "3 estimates" requirements of insurance etc..

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

I want a radiator fitting in the conservatory, one says he can take it
off the existing microbore (?) radiator in the next room, another said
he'd have to take it off the upstairs normal guage supply. Neither
phoned me back. A simple enough job I would think.


At the same time I asked for a price for a new boiler, so they had a
small job and a big job to choose from, I guess plumbers are given
mobiles with no dial out buttons so they can only receive calls.


K










On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:36:26 +0100, Tony
wrote:

This is in North Wales, where most of the people who work neer where
they live are farmers ..
SNIP
...All the local farmers have a machine or two, they rent them out to
each other, so one guy cuts the hedges for 10 farms, one pupms sewage
for 50, one cuts corn for 20 etc .........

Rick

Same here in the Cumbrian bit of the Yorkshire Dales. Milkman who fits
carpets; potter who plasters etc. Once you find out who does what and
if you can cope with the unusual business arrangements and timings it
works well (unfortunately all the plumbers in the area are full-timers
and the rot has set in...)

tony

Totally agree - in fact, if anything you're being a bit optimistic! I
recently called 17 different plumbers to quote for some relatively
simple
work (installation of a new soil stack).

So you want 17 people to come round and give you a price, at their
expense,
No, I want 2-3 people to come 'round to give me a price, at their expense.
Unfortunately, by calling 17 people I only managed to get 1 person to
actually give me a price.

Now do you see why they aren't interested?
Er, they can't be arsed 'cause they've got plenty of easier jobs to do?

We will not site survey now without payment of our standard callout fee.
That's diabolical. I reiterrate my last statement of "If they demonstrated
the *slightest* incling of customer service, I might have *some* sympathy
for them when they go bust in a couple of years time, when the property
market cools down a bit and everyone's learned how to do it themselves
anyway..."

I don't know of any other industry where the customer has to *pay* the
supplier just to get a price out of them!

Ludicrous.

Andy

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:46:22 +0100, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

Totally agree - in fact, if anything you're being a bit optimistic! I
recently called 17 different plumbers to quote for some relatively
simple
work (installation of a new soil stack).

So you want 17 people to come round and give you a price, at their
expense,
No, I want 2-3 people to come 'round to give me a price, at their expense.
Unfortunately, by calling 17 people I only managed to get 1 person to
actually give me a price.

Now do you see why they aren't interested?
Er, they can't be arsed 'cause they've got plenty of easier jobs to do?

We will not site survey now without payment of our standard callout fee.
That's diabolical. I reiterrate my last statement of "If they demonstrated
the *slightest* incling of customer service, I might have *some* sympathy
for them when they go bust in a couple of years time, when the property
market cools down a bit and everyone's learned how to do it themselves
anyway..."

I don't know of any other industry where the customer has to *pay* the
supplier just to get a price out of them!

Ludicrous.

Not at all - this is very reasonable.

If a business sends somebody to survey a job and submit a quotation,
that is a fair amount of time taken, especially if the cost of the job
is fairly modest anyway.

It really depends on the time and effort involved before a sale is
made and the value of the job.

I frequently have situations where a customer would like to evaluate
something. However this involves potentially several days work.
Naturally I try to check suitability, but it isn't always possible.
Therefore it is accepted practice to charge for that and refund
against a later order.

For somebody offering services on a domestic level, there are three
choices in this area.

- Provide free quotations and play the numbers game on which come in -
absorbing the cost of the non-productive time

- As above but amortising the cost across other customers

- Making a refundable charge against an order.

There is more to this than just calling up and getting a price over
the phone.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Totally agree - in fact, if anything you're being a bit optimistic!
I
recently called 17 different plumbers to quote for some relatively
simple
work (installation of a new soil stack).

So you want 17 people to come round and give you a price, at their
expense,
No, I want 2-3 people to come 'round to give me a price, at their
expense.
Unfortunately, by calling 17 people I only managed to get 1 person to
actually give me a price.

Now do you see why they aren't interested?
Er, they can't be arsed 'cause they've got plenty of easier jobs to do?

We will not site survey now without payment of our standard callout
fee.
That's diabolical. I reiterrate my last statement of "If they
demonstrated
the *slightest* incling of customer service, I might have *some* sympathy
for them when they go bust in a couple of years time, when the property
market cools down a bit and everyone's learned how to do it themselves
anyway..."

I don't know of any other industry where the customer has to *pay* the
supplier just to get a price out of them!

Ludicrous.

Not at all - this is very reasonable.

If a business sends somebody to survey a job and submit a quotation,
that is a fair amount of time taken, especially if the cost of the job
is fairly modest anyway.
snip
- Making a refundable charge against an order.

So, when a customer phones you up, do you honestly expect them to call you
and ONLY you? Do you not think it's *quite a good idea* to phone around for
at least 2-3 quotes, given the number of rip-off merchants and cowboys out
there?

I don't care what the job is. The quotation should be provided for FREE.
Generally the time taken to quote will be proportional to the value of the
job anyway so your valuable time will be rewarded accordingly. To expect
customer to shell out 2-3 callout fees just to get a quote is utterly
ridiculous and the fact that the industry takes your point of view as 'the
norm' only goes to highlight the sorry state of affairs we're in.

Andy

In article , Pecanfan
URL:mailto
Please will you trim to context?

So, when a customer phones you up, do you honestly expect them to call you
and ONLY you?

Possibly not, but that's irrelevant.

Do you not think it's *quite a good idea* to phone around for
at least 2-3 quotes, given the number of rip-off merchants and cowboys out
there?

Sadly, usenet is heavily populated with those who equate the cheapest price
with the best value for money. When I'm looking for goods or a service, I go
for recommendation or membership of a trade body. I don't phone every entry
in Yellow Pages to see who quotes cheapest.

I don't care what the job is.

Obviously, but then you have no grasp of business.

The quotation should be provided for FREE.

Why? It costs money to send an engineer out, both time and travelling
expenses. Why should we throw that money away, when there are plenty of
customers who don't mess about pitting one company against another.

Generally the time taken to quote will be proportional to the value of the
job anyway so your valuable time will be rewarded accordingly.

Only if the job is booked. Otherwise it is a waste of time and money,
neither of which you feel you are liable to refund.

To expect
customer to shell out 2-3 callout fees just to get a quote is utterly
ridiculous

No-one is suggesting that at all. A realistic estimate of the cost will be
given over the phone, so that way it costs nothing.

and the fact that the industry takes your point of view as 'the
norm' only goes to highlight the sorry state of affairs we're in.

But in general, the industry (any service organisation) doesn't want the
type of customer who wants everything cheap. They are ALWAYS trouble,
expecting champagne for beer money. I would rather they went elsewhere.

I had a phone call earlier from a woman who already rang me a couple of days
ago for a price. She is obviously trawling round everyone in the book trying
to shave off the last penny. What she doesn't want to be educated about is
the quality of the equipment to be installed. Now we could do a typical
"cheap" job, with contractor equipment etc, but then she will be back on the
phone complaining about it. Why bother, let the cowboys have the hassle,
they come and go, we have been around since 1986 and intend to be around for
a long time to come. Makes you think the business must be running correctly?

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Pecanfan
URL:mailto

snip


Generally the time taken to quote will be proportional to the value of
the
job anyway so your valuable time will be rewarded accordingly.

Only if the job is booked. Otherwise it is a waste of time and money,
neither of which you feel you are liable to refund.

To expect
customer to shell out 2-3 callout fees just to get a quote is utterly
ridiculous

No-one is suggesting that at all. A realistic estimate of the cost will be
given over the phone, so that way it costs nothing.

Not true. The last couple of times I've tried to get quotes for things
(plastering a room and replacing my soil stack), the people who I have
spoken too have insisted on coming to have a look rather than quoting over
the phone. In both cases I was happy to provide any relavent info they
wanted but their immediate responses were always "I'll come round and have a
look". And I'm sure if charging to come and give a quote was the norm, we
would be even less likely to get phone quotes.


and the fact that the industry takes your point of view as 'the
norm' only goes to highlight the sorry state of affairs we're in.

But in general, the industry (any service organisation) doesn't want the
type of customer who wants everything cheap. They are ALWAYS trouble,
expecting champagne for beer money. I would rather they went elsewhere.



I don't necessarily want everything cheap - but I want to get quotes from at
least 3 people, especially when I have no idea how much a job should cost.
If someone quotes way below the others, I'm instantly suspicious - and if
someone comes round and is more helpful and seems more able than the others
(in most cases I have general idea what is needed which has so far enabled
me to get rid of anyone who is trying to exaggerate the scale of the job) I
would be more likely to go with them.


I had a phone call earlier from a woman who already rang me a couple of
days
ago for a price. She is obviously trawling round everyone in the book
trying
to shave off the last penny. What she doesn't want to be educated about is
the quality of the equipment to be installed. Now we could do a typical
"cheap" job, with contractor equipment etc, but then she will be back on
the
phone complaining about it. Why bother, let the cowboys have the hassle,
they come and go, we have been around since 1986 and intend to be around
for
a long time to come. Makes you think the business must be running
correctly?

I'm sure there aren't many businesses that would say "we've been around for
a long time but intend to go bankrupt within the year" :-)

If it works for you, fine. But if I phone round for quotes and someone says
"I'll come out, it will cost you £x" I won't go with them - their quote may
be ludicrous anyway, in which case I've lost the callout fee for no gain.
Why bother?

Jon

I don't care what the job is.
Obviously, but then you have no grasp of business.

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal with
different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I
personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15 to
500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony
services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list goes
on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging
before giving you a price is the building industry!


The quotation should be provided for FREE.
Why? It costs money to send an engineer out, both time and travelling

So? It's like saying "It costs me money to put a car showroom together so
I'm going to charge everybody an entrance fee before letting them in".


expenses. Why should we throw that money away, when there are plenty of
customers who don't mess about pitting one company against another.

Ah, well - I think we've hit the nail on the head (pardon the pun)! I.e. -
there's so much work out there you can pick and choose the easy jobs and /
or the jobs which offer zero competition.


No-one is suggesting that at all. A realistic estimate of the cost will be
given over the phone, so that way it costs nothing.

But that's fine. I certainly wouldn't expect 3 plumbers who had given me a
price over the phone to then EACH carry out a site survey. That wasn't my
point though. My point is that if a price can ONLY be given by attending
site (which was the case in my scenario) then the builder should meet the
cost of that.


But in general, the industry (any service organisation) doesn't want the
type of customer who wants everything cheap. They are ALWAYS trouble,
expecting champagne for beer money. I would rather they went elsewhere.

I totally agree - there's nothing more annoying than wasting time with
barterers or people who constantly come back expecting you to lower the
price 'cause they've found it cheaper elsewhere.


I had a phone call earlier from a woman who already rang me a couple of
days
ago for a price. She is obviously trawling round everyone in the book
trying
to shave off the last penny. What she doesn't want to be educated about is
the quality of the equipment to be installed. Now we could do a typical
"cheap" job, with contractor equipment etc, but then she will be back on
the
phone complaining about it. Why bother, let the cowboys have the hassle,

Again, totally agree and people like that deserve what they get. However,
not every industry is in such a fortunate position that they can afford to
turn away work 'cause it's a bit more hassle. As I say, a LOT of people
have been bitten by cowboy builders over the years and I have every sympathy
for genuine customers who just want a good job for a reasonable price. I
have no sympathy for people who don't realise how good they've got it and
treat their 'customers' like something they've just scraped off their shoe.

Andy

"Pecanfan" wrote in message
...

So, when a customer phones you up, do you honestly expect them to call you
and ONLY you? Do you not think it's *quite a good idea* to phone around
for
at least 2-3 quotes, given the number of rip-off merchants and cowboys out
there?

I don't care what the job is. The quotation should be provided for FREE.
Generally the time taken to quote will be proportional to the value of the
job anyway so your valuable time will be rewarded accordingly. To expect
customer to shell out 2-3 callout fees just to get a quote is utterly
ridiculous and the fact that the industry takes your point of view as 'the
norm' only goes to highlight the sorry state of affairs we're in.

Not quite sure why the quotation *should be* for free - we operate in a
"free" market, people are entitled to charge for any services they provide,
as long as it's stated up front and customers are entitled not to use them.
We might want to live in a world where everyone gets three free quotes and
the job then goes to one of them but we don't. A decorator or plumber might
go out on site and give ten quotes and get only one job - someone has to pay
for his time and he won't get anything back on nine of them. For large jobs
(eg building an extension) you will normally get free quotes but it's less
likely on small jobs.

I agree it's a trifle rude not to tell someone asking for a quote you aren't
interested straight away - this is one area the building and associated
trades could improve on. I also agree that it's unfortunate that it's almost
impossible to get small jobs done but that, again, is supply and demand. The
builder I last used, when he was doing my extension, had ten jobs on the go
and another twenty to price. He couldn't possibly do all the ones he was
asked to quote for - which would you put in the bin - the small ones or the
big ones? He is not in the Yellow Pages and doesn't advertise.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting - that there should be laws passed to
govern who people agree to quote for and what their terms are? I suspect we
have enough legislation! If you force people to give quotes for free, they
will give silly ones without visiting so you are no better off. As it was,
for my extension I received quotes of (roughly) £25,000, £35,000 and £42,000
for the same work. I would have been no worse off if (at least) the last
hadn't bothered to quote.



--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:26:31 +0100, "Pecanfan"
wrote:


I don't know of any other industry where the customer has to *pay* the
supplier just to get a price out of them!

Ludicrous.

Not at all - this is very reasonable.

If a business sends somebody to survey a job and submit a quotation,
that is a fair amount of time taken, especially if the cost of the job
is fairly modest anyway.
snip
- Making a refundable charge against an order.

So, when a customer phones you up, do you honestly expect them to call you
and ONLY you? Do you not think it's *quite a good idea* to phone around for
at least 2-3 quotes, given the number of rip-off merchants and cowboys out
there?

For what I do yes - this is standard practice..

I don't care what the job is. The quotation should be provided for FREE.

This depends on what work is involved and the commitment on the part
of the customer. For what I do, it is easily possible that several
days work are involved. The customer won't know what he needs until
he has looked at the service and product so it is impossible to
provide a quotation. I can give a range of figures but that is all.
The customer then pays for the initial evaluation scheme and that is
then full refunded as part of the purchase.


Generally the time taken to quote will be proportional to the value of the
job anyway so your valuable time will be rewarded accordingly. To expect
customer to shell out 2-3 callout fees just to get a quote is utterly
ridiculous and the fact that the industry takes your point of view as 'the
norm' only goes to highlight the sorry state of affairs we're in.

This view is naive.

Even on a low end consumer job, the tradesperson is going to spend
probably at least 2 hours getting to and from the potential customer,
surveying the job and then sending out a proper quotation

Somebody has to pay for that. As I say, either the tradesperson
absorbs it, amortises it over the other customers or charges something
- even if it's only a token amount. The fourth alternative would
be to quote on a time and materials basis, which in fact is likely to
be more satisfactory all round anyway.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:17:42 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
wrote:



I had a phone call earlier from a woman who already rang me a couple of days
ago for a price. She is obviously trawling round everyone in the book trying
to shave off the last penny. What she doesn't want to be educated about is
the quality of the equipment to be installed. Now we could do a typical
"cheap" job, with contractor equipment etc, but then she will be back on the
phone complaining about it. Why bother, let the cowboys have the hassle,
they come and go, we have been around since 1986 and intend to be around for
a long time to come. Makes you think the business must be running correctly?


I couldn't agree more. In your business, I think that you would have
to run that way to be able to staty in business and give good service.

I used a professional antenna installation company a couple of years
ago on a T&M basis, based largely on references of commercial work
that they have done. They will also do fixed price installations
of UHF antennas and Sky dishes at two levels. One being the basic
version using contract materials and the other being a good
installation using better materials, much more care over cable routing
etc. With job prices typically being under £200 a time, even for
the good stuff, it's not economic to call and give quotes.

Your observation seems to be a common rule of business. Those
customers who want to nickel and dime are always the ones who are the
biggest PITA afterwards.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:07:53 +0100, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

I don't care what the job is.
Obviously, but then you have no grasp of business.

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal with
different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I
personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15 to
500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony
services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list goes
on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging
before giving you a price is the building industry!


Nope. The IT industry most definitely does.





But that's fine. I certainly wouldn't expect 3 plumbers who had given me a
price over the phone to then EACH carry out a site survey. That wasn't my
point though. My point is that if a price can ONLY be given by attending
site (which was the case in my scenario) then the builder should meet the
cost of that.

It depends on the work involved. If the supplier has to spend 5
days scoping out the work, do you expect all of that for free?





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal
with
different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I
personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15
to
500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony
services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list
goes
on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging
before giving you a price is the building industry!


Nope. The IT industry most definitely does.

I really beg to differ - can you give me an example of this?


But that's fine. I certainly wouldn't expect 3 plumbers who had given me
a
price over the phone to then EACH carry out a site survey. That wasn't
my
point though. My point is that if a price can ONLY be given by attending
site (which was the case in my scenario) then the builder should meet the
cost of that.

It depends on the work involved. If the supplier has to spend 5
days scoping out the work, do you expect all of that for free?

Well, if 5 days are required to give ANY form of a price, then yes!

Andy

On 21 Sep 2004 15:58:14 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Andy Hall writes:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:07:53 +0100, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

I don't care what the job is.
Obviously, but then you have no grasp of business.

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal with
different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I
personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15 to
500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony
services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list goes
on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging
before giving you a price is the building industry!


Nope. The IT industry most definitely does.

Not if they want to do any business with me, they don't. And I spend
several million dollars a year on behalf of my employers.

I am talking about projects where a substantial amount of consulting
work has to be done with the customer to even figure out what the job
is and to scale it; rather than something that is a product supply and
install. I agree with you in the latter case that it is typical to
simply quote.







..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:29:30 +0100, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal
with
different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I
personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15
to
500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony
services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list
goes
on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging
before giving you a price is the building industry!


Nope. The IT industry most definitely does.

I really beg to differ - can you give me an example of this?

Most of the major equipment vendors on a high ticket item will offer
try and buy schemes. Obviously a price can be quoted up front for
jus tthe product, there is not a lot of cost in that. However, if
consulting services are required in order to define the project
because the customer can't or hasn't done it, or if specific work is
needed in order for the customer to trial something, then it is not
unusual for the customer to be asked to commit to purchase under a
defined set of conditions or to be asked to pay something to cover
costs if the requirements are met but they decide not to proceed.
Since the deliverable is goods and services, it may be possible to
quote for the goods but not the services until the project has been
scoped out. In these instances, the customer may be quoted on a time
basis for the consulting.



But that's fine. I certainly wouldn't expect 3 plumbers who had given me
a
price over the phone to then EACH carry out a site survey. That wasn't
my
point though. My point is that if a price can ONLY be given by attending
site (which was the case in my scenario) then the builder should meet the
cost of that.

It depends on the work involved. If the supplier has to spend 5
days scoping out the work, do you expect all of that for free?

Well, if 5 days are required to give ANY form of a price, then yes!

In that case, it would be reasonable for the supplier to quote on a
time and materials basis or if pushed into a fixed price to sandbag
it. This is one of several reasons why a T&M basis can be
preferable.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Pecanfan" wrote in message
...
We will not site survey now without payment of our standard callout fee.
That's diabolical. I reiterrate my last statement of "If they
demonstrated
the *slightest* incling of customer service, I might have *some* sympathy
for them when they go bust in a couple of years time, when the property
market cools down a bit and everyone's learned how to do it themselves
anyway..."

I don't know of any other industry where the customer has to *pay* the
supplier just to get a price out of them!

Very common in large architectural projects. How could anybody afford to
spend a million or more producing a bid otherwise.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:07:53 +0100, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

I don't care what the job is.
Obviously, but then you have no grasp of business.

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal
with
different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I
personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15
to
500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony
services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list
goes
on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging
before giving you a price is the building industry!


Nope. The IT industry most definitely does.

Too right - though it is usually called "consultancy" to make the customer
feel happier about it.







But that's fine. I certainly wouldn't expect 3 plumbers who had given me
a
price over the phone to then EACH carry out a site survey. That wasn't
my
point though. My point is that if a price can ONLY be given by attending
site (which was the case in my scenario) then the builder should meet the
cost of that.

It depends on the work involved. If the supplier has to spend 5
days scoping out the work, do you expect all of that for free?





.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message , anon
writes
I want a radiator fitting in the conservatory, one says he can take it
off the existing microbore (?) radiator in the next room, another said
he'd have to take it off the upstairs normal guage supply. Neither
phoned me back. A simple enough job I would think.


At the same time I asked for a price for a new boiler, so they had a
small job and a big job to choose from, I guess plumbers are given
mobiles with no dial out buttons so they can only receive calls.


Isn't this discussion a bit OT for a DIY NG ?

not that it doesn't always go that way, but shouldn't this discussion be
taken to uk.winging-about-tradesmen ?

in the time various people have spent moaning about not being able to
"get a man in", they could have e.g. built a house, let alone a
conservatory

--
geoff

Isn't this discussion a bit OT for a DIY NG ?

not that it doesn't always go that way, but shouldn't this discussion be
taken to uk.winging-about-tradesmen ?

in the time various people have spent moaning about not being able to
"get a man in", they could have e.g. built a house, let alone a
conservatory

You do have a point - although if it wasn't for the fact that a lot of us
can't actually find tradesmen, we wouldn't be subjected to this DIY stuff!
:-)

Andy

In article , Tony
wrote:

Same here in the Cumbrian bit of the Yorkshire Dales. Milkman who fits
carpets; potter who plasters etc. Once you find out who does what and
if you can cope with the unusual business arrangements and timings it
works well (unfortunately all the plumbers in the area are full-timers
and the rot has set in...)

That's the part of the country I'm about to move into. Could you give me
any recommendations of good local building, plastering, roofing or
central heating people? My "from" address is spam trapped but the
(improbable sounding) "reply-to" address is valid if you don't want to
post personal contact info on usenet.

--
Mike Clarke

Most of the major equipment vendors on a high ticket item will offer
try and buy schemes. Obviously a price can be quoted up front for
jus tthe product, there is not a lot of cost in that. However, if
consulting services are required in order to define the project
because the customer can't or hasn't done it, or if specific work is
needed in order for the customer to trial something, then it is not
unusual for the customer to be asked to commit to purchase under a
defined set of conditions or to be asked to pay something to cover
costs if the requirements are met but they decide not to proceed.
Since the deliverable is goods and services, it may be possible to
quote for the goods but not the services until the project has been
scoped out. In these instances, the customer may be quoted on a time
basis for the consulting.

Mmm... OK, but what you're talking about there isn't exactly the 'usual
scenario' and for the above to happen the following is probably true.
Either:-

a) The customer already has a trading relationship with the supplier

or

b) The supplier is offering such a unique product or solution that there is
very little competition, which gets back to my original point of NO
COMPETITION = BAD.

The T&M situation is certainly valid, but again the customer would expect to
have had a vague indication of costs before agreeing to this. Normally a
very basic quotation will be put together FOC on the basis of extra work
being required to carry out the final quote, which can either be carried out
by the customer or the supplier at a charge of £x per hour or whatever...
depending on the scenario obviously.

Generally though, in the IT industry especially, suppliers are queuing up at
the doors to win customer's business. I know of suppliers who have spent
well in excess of quarter of a million pounds in expenses and man hours
alone, in an attempt to win a single particular contract. Most customers
see the expense involved in preparing quotations as the price you pay for
winning new business. Believe me, I'd love it if it didn't work like that.

In any case, this has nothing to do with me being unable to get someone to
attend to my soil pipe, so to speak. :-)

Andy

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:27:47 +0100, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

Most of the major equipment vendors on a high ticket item will offer
try and buy schemes. Obviously a price can be quoted up front for
jus tthe product, there is not a lot of cost in that. However, if
consulting services are required in order to define the project
because the customer can't or hasn't done it, or if specific work is
needed in order for the customer to trial something, then it is not
unusual for the customer to be asked to commit to purchase under a
defined set of conditions or to be asked to pay something to cover
costs if the requirements are met but they decide not to proceed.
Since the deliverable is goods and services, it may be possible to
quote for the goods but not the services until the project has been
scoped out. In these instances, the customer may be quoted on a time
basis for the consulting.

Mmm... OK, but what you're talking about there isn't exactly the 'usual
scenario'

That depends on the business environment.

and for the above to happen the following is probably true.
Either:-

a) The customer already has a trading relationship with the supplier

or

b) The supplier is offering such a unique product or solution that there is
very little competition, which gets back to my original point of NO
COMPETITION = BAD.

That depends on the meaning of competition. It takes many forms
other than price.



The T&M situation is certainly valid, but again the customer would expect to
have had a vague indication of costs before agreeing to this. Normally a
very basic quotation will be put together FOC on the basis of extra work
being required to carry out the final quote, which can either be carried out
by the customer or the supplier at a charge of £x per hour or whatever...
depending on the scenario obviously.

Obviously one quotes on typical cost of the materials, a rate per unit
time and an estimate of what the likely time is, but it has to be an
estimate.



Generally though, in the IT industry especially, suppliers are queuing up at
the doors to win customer's business.

It depends on the product/service.

I know of suppliers who have spent
well in excess of quarter of a million pounds in expenses and man hours
alone, in an attempt to win a single particular contract.

So do I, but that would be for a multilillion contract.


Most customers
see the expense involved in preparing quotations as the price you pay for
winning new business. Believe me, I'd love it if it didn't work like that.

It depends on whether it really is preparing a quotation or whether it
is really consultancy and that is a different thing.



In any case, this has nothing to do with me being unable to get someone to
attend to my soil pipe, so to speak. :-)

I agree. I was simply making the point that that there is acost in
this stuff and somebody somewhere does pay.



Andy


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:11:35 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , anon
writes
I want a radiator fitting in the conservatory, one says he can take it
off the existing microbore (?) radiator in the next room, another said
he'd have to take it off the upstairs normal guage supply. Neither
phoned me back. A simple enough job I would think.


At the same time I asked for a price for a new boiler, so they had a
small job and a big job to choose from, I guess plumbers are given
mobiles with no dial out buttons so they can only receive calls.


Isn't this discussion a bit OT for a DIY NG ?

not that it doesn't always go that way, but shouldn't this discussion be
taken to uk.winging-about-tradesmen ?

in the time various people have spent moaning about not being able to
"get a man in", they could have e.g. built a house, let alone a
conservatory

Exactly what I am doing, a self build, not the "Grand Designs" way,
but the DIY way. The BCO thinks I am a nutter, but I am working faster
than he guessed I would.

Rick

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:07:53 +0100, Pecanfan wrote:

I don't care what the job is.
Obviously, but then you have no grasp of business.

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal with
different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I
personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15 to
500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony
services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list goes
on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging
before giving you a price is the building industry!


The quotation should be provided for FREE.
Why? It costs money to send an engineer out, both time and travelling

So? It's like saying "It costs me money to put a car showroom together so
I'm going to charge everybody an entrance fee before letting them in".

AISI the matter is one of supply and demand. There are other car showrooms
to go to. People frequently complain I have had such difficulty finding a
..... (insert whatever trade you wish)....

Most of my work is from Landlords. They accept as part of my terms and
conditions that the first visit will fix a trivial problem or give a
realistic estimate (T&M) or fixed quote for a bigger matter. This gives
them the option of engaging someone else if they feel my price/estimate
was way out. It also provides them with an exact description (AIUI) of
the problem. The first visit is chargeable either as
Repair minor damage to ....
or
Identify cause of ....

I am far too busy to start chasing jobs I let them come to me. However I
am fairly brutal about whether I am ever going to be able to do a job
and when I am likely to be able to get to do the job. It is IMHO unfair to
string people along on the basis that I might just need the work.

I have a large secondary order book of things people would like me to do
if I get short of work.


expenses. Why should we throw that money away, when there are plenty of
customers who don't mess about pitting one company against another.

Ah, well - I think we've hit the nail on the head (pardon the pun)! I.e. -
there's so much work out there you can pick and choose the easy jobs and /
or the jobs which offer zero competition.

It is/will be getting tougher for the general builders the slavic slaves
work 12 hours a day probably for 2 hours pay.


No-one is suggesting that at all. A realistic estimate of the cost will be
given over the phone, so that way it costs nothing.

But that's fine. I certainly wouldn't expect 3 plumbers who had given me a
price over the phone to then EACH carry out a site survey. That wasn't my
point though. My point is that if a price can ONLY be given by attending
site (which was the case in my scenario) then the builder should meet the
cost of that.

Why bother I'll wait til my order book is empty before I have to start
surveying jobs.


But in general, the industry (any service organisation) doesn't want the
type of customer who wants everything cheap. They are ALWAYS trouble,
expecting champagne for beer money. I would rather they went elsewhere.

I totally agree - there's nothing more annoying than wasting time with
barterers or people who constantly come back expecting you to lower the
price 'cause they've found it cheaper elsewhere.





I had a phone call earlier from a woman who already rang me a couple of
days
ago for a price. She is obviously trawling round everyone in the book
trying
to shave off the last penny. What she doesn't want to be educated about is
the quality of the equipment to be installed. Now we could do a typical
"cheap" job, with contractor equipment etc, but then she will be back on
the
phone complaining about it. Why bother, let the cowboys have the hassle,

Again, totally agree and people like that deserve what they get. However,
not every industry is in such a fortunate position that they can afford to
turn away work 'cause it's a bit more hassle. As I say, a LOT of people
have been bitten by cowboy builders over the years and I have every sympathy
for genuine customers who just want a good job for a reasonable price. I
have no sympathy for people who don't realise how good they've got it and
treat their 'customers' like something they've just scraped off their shoe.

Either you build up a clientele of mutually respectful customers or you
operate in a 'predatory' fashion always looking for new customers and
hoping the really upset ones don't hunt you down. It stands to reason
that all the adverts and yellow pages listings contain mostly the latter
style. You might get lucky and find a good one who has just started and is
building up his customer base.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , anon
writes
I want a radiator fitting in the conservatory, one says he can take it
off the existing microbore (?) radiator in the next room, another said
he'd have to take it off the upstairs normal guage supply. Neither
phoned me back. A simple enough job I would think.


At the same time I asked for a price for a new boiler, so they had a
small job and a big job to choose from, I guess plumbers are given
mobiles with no dial out buttons so they can only receive calls.


Isn't this discussion a bit OT for a DIY NG ?

not that it doesn't always go that way, but shouldn't this discussion be
taken to uk.winging-about-tradesmen ?

in the time various people have spent moaning about not being able to
"get a man in", they could have e.g. built a house, let alone a
conservatory

But would you want some of these people actually trying to do even a little
DIY, let alone build a house themselves.

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes

Either you build up a clientele of mutually respectful customers or you
operate in a 'predatory' fashion always looking for new customers and
hoping the really upset ones don't hunt you down. It stands to reason
that all the adverts and yellow pages listings contain mostly the latter
style. You might get lucky and find a good one who has just started and is
building up his customer base.


In case everyone thinks its just 'customers' who have to put up with
this.
Using Ed's examples; I like to think we are in the first bracket, i.e.
we have a bunch of customers who like using us and we like working for
them.
I don't want to be a 'predator'.

One of the jobs we are currently trying to complete has been a
nightmare.
The plumber who was planned to do the job got a job with the council.
The customer had a plumber recommended to her that she wanted to use.
I asked around about the plumber and he seemed to be OK.
I couldn't get a return call out of him; let alone a price. The job
wasn't small (3 bathrooms, u-f heating a dozen rads, kitchen cloakroom)
wasn't far away from him, most of the job new build and I'm fairly well
known for keeping my side of the bargain.
I eventually got to speak to him and we arranged a meeting; twice.
Seeing as we were on site every day it wouldn't have been hard to just
turn up.
I never actually set eyes on the bloke and eventually left a very irate
message on his answering machine. Not once did he *ever* ring me back.

Ok now I'm in a hole. I eventually find a plumber who said he would do
it.
Got a quote and the work was agreed.
He eventually turned up to start first fix 3 weeks late.
Then the boiler supplier failed to supply the boiler and it arrived
months late
Then the suppliers sent the wrong unvented cylinder.
Finally sort this all out and phone plumber months ahead to make sure he
can make it.
He finally does and turns up with another plumber who has to do the gas
work as he wasnt corgi registered (argh).
Second plumber carries out all the gas and unvented work and all is
well.
Then no one turns up for 3 months.
We've finished all of our work and my saintly impossibly patient
customer are still waiting for their plumbing work to be completed.
I never get phoned back. Ever.

I don't care if I ever see another plumber in my life.
I can't think of a single plumber who isnt like this and is available to
do work in the next 6 months.
None of them will come and sort out this job because its already
started.
Ironically; before CORGI came along we used to do all the plumbing work
inhouse.
I stare at this boiler and cylinder and know that we can complete the
work in a couple of days; but because we are 'professionals' (no wonder
that gets sneered at in this NG) we are not allowed to touch it.

Apologies for ranting. Just in case you think builders dont have to put
up with arseholes too.


ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!
--
mark

In article ,
mark writes:

In case everyone thinks its just 'customers' who have to put up with
this.

I've recounted this before, but a friend had same problem.
He was having a substantial extension built (which has probably
doubled the size of the house) and some relayout of the existing
house done. 3 years ago when he first started talking to builders,
he asked if he could do the electrical and plumbing himself, and
the answer was 'no', or at least, he wasn't going to get anything
knocked off the price. When he finally got a builder earlier this
year, that had all changed. When he asked the same question, the
builder jumped at the chance -- he said he knew he wouldn't be
able to find an electrician or plumber which was going to be a
real problem getting the extension completed. Anyway, my friend
did all the plumbing and electrical including moving the boiler.
The builder helped out by supplying core borers and other tools
as and when needed -- I think he was really pleased he wasn't
having to deal with plumbers and electricians.

Over the last 5 years, I've probably had some 5 or so jobs which
I've tried to get tradesmen in to do. Every time, it's involved
phoning some ~10 tradesmen. On 3 occations I actually managed to
get someone round to look at the job. Only ever got one quote,
and the work done really wasn't very good (not up to the standard
I could do it, but done much faster). I DIY pretty much everything
now -- trying to get tradesmen is a big waste of time.

--
Andrew Gabriel