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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Condensing Boiler problems
Hiya All,
Just thought I'd share some info on condensing boilers with everyone, and get some feedback. I have been shopping around to get my old cast-iron open vent boiler system changed to a direct combi system, and considered a condensing boiler, Anyway, cut a long story short, found that Graham Group (www.graham-group.co.uk) are doing the "Big Green Boiler Scheme" and you can get a condensing boiler at a discounted rate (very good rates they are too!). Anyway, was just about to buy one through the scheme (Vaillant EcoMax 824), and was told by a friend to phone a guy who works for British Gas, doing their boiler replacement scheme. He's going around fitting condensing boilers for British Gas, and doing work on the side for cash. I mentioned that I was interested in the condensing boiler as a replacement, which he said in all honesty that BG are "recalling" and "replacing" condensing boilers because of reliability issues. He also mentioned that the "Part L" regs will be extended for another 3 years, so new dwellings will not be required until 2007, not the April 2005 the goverment has publicised. Any feedback on these rumors? Conclusion....I'm going for a Glow-worm (now owned by Vaillant) 30Ci Plus from "Mr Central Heating" (http://www.mrcentralheating.com/) with the usual 7 rads and pipe pack (£735 including VAT). My thinking is stick with what works, rather than go for new technology, and possibly upgrade (if I'm still in the house) some years down the line. Your feedback/comments welcome. Mika |
#2
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Condensing Boiler problems
In article , Mika
wrote: I mentioned that I was interested in the condensing boiler as a replacement, which he said in all honesty that BG are "recalling" and "replacing" condensing boilers because of reliability issues. If he's talking about Potterton Envoys this could be true. Otherwise condensing boilers that use the downfiring design should be more reliable as they are effectively self cleansing He also mentioned that the "Part L" regs will be extended for another 3 years, so new dwellings will not be required until 2007, not the April 2005 the goverment has publicised. The Northern Ireland Part F (aka Part L in E&W) consultation paper published last month confirms the intention to enforce the April 2005 date and states that they intend to do the same in NI. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
#3
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Condensing Boiler problems
In article , Mika
wrote: found that Graham Group (www.graham-group.co.uk) are doing the "Big Green Boiler Scheme" and you can get a condensing boiler at a discounted rate (very good rates they are too!). Given that their undiscounted price for a Keston Celsius is £1,043.28+VAT v. £635+VAT at B&G Heating I should hope so! -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
#4
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Mika" wrote in message om... Hiya All, Just thought I'd share some info on condensing boilers with everyone, and get some feedback. I have been shopping around to get my old cast-iron open vent boiler system changed to a direct combi system, and considered a condensing boiler, Anyway, cut a long story short, found that Graham Group (www.graham-group.co.uk) are doing the "Big Green Boiler Scheme" and you can get a condensing boiler at a discounted rate (very good rates they are too!). Anyway, was just about to buy one through the scheme (Vaillant EcoMax 824), and was told by a friend to phone a guy who works for British Gas, doing their boiler replacement scheme. He's going around fitting condensing boilers for British Gas, and doing work on the side for cash. I mentioned that I was interested in the condensing boiler as a replacement, which he said in all honesty that BG are "recalling" and "replacing" condensing boilers because of reliability issues. There are numerous makes of condensing boilers. What make(s) In general, a condensing boiler is "no" more complex than a regular boiler. Anyone who says differently knows ***k all about them. BG had the Ideal ICOS on their list but were not pushing it because of initial reliability problems. Ideal addressed the issue by taking the fan control off the main control board and now all is fine. He also mentioned that the "Part L" regs will be extended for another 3 years, so new dwellings will not be required until 2007, not the April 2005 the goverment has publicised. So far 2005. Any feedback on these rumors? Conclusion....I'm going for a Glow-worm (now owned by Vaillant) 30Ci Plus from "Mr Central Heating" (http://www.mrcentralheating.com/) with the usual 7 rads and pipe pack (£735 including VAT). My thinking is stick with what works, rather than go for new technology, and possibly upgrade (if I'm still in the house) some years down the line. Your feedback/comments welcome. The Glow Worm is a good boiler, with Vaillant parts in it. Ideal have Vaillant parts and some boilers to be introduced will be pure Vaillant except for the badge. Ideal boast that no part in the boiler )(except the heat exchange) takes more than 15 minutes to change. So if you are charged 2 hours to replace something question it. |
#5
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Condensing Boiler problems
cash. I mentioned that I was interested in the condensing boiler as a
replacement, which he said in all honesty that BG are "recalling" and "replacing" condensing boilers because of reliability issues. Oh dear. Another Luddite installer who harks back to the cast iron heaps of **** that have been installed since time immemorial. Yes, many of the early condensing boilers were bad. Things have moved on. Modern condensing boilers aren't "new technology" any more. They're on their third generation and no less reliable than modern non-condensing boilers. The only problem with the EcoMax 824 is that it won't fill a bath any time soon. Still good for showers, if that's your thing (much better than any gravity fed traditional system). If you are a bath a day type, consider getting a non-combi system, or you'll spend your life watching the dribble out of the tap. Christian. |
#6
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... cash. I mentioned that I was interested in the condensing boiler as a replacement, which he said in all honesty that BG are "recalling" and "replacing" condensing boilers because of reliability issues. Oh dear. Another Luddite installer who harks back to the cast iron heaps of **** that have been installed since time immemorial. Yes, many of the early condensing boilers were bad. Things have moved on. Modern condensing boilers aren't "new technology" any more. They're on their third generation and no less reliable than modern non-condensing boilers. The only problem with the EcoMax 824 is that it won't fill a bath any time soon. Still good for showers, if that's your thing (much better than any gravity fed traditional system). If you are a bath a day type, consider getting a non-combi system, or you'll spend your life watching the dribble out of the tap. More misinformation. There are high flow rate combi's that will fill a bath zippo. |
#7
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Condensing Boiler problems
More misinformation. There are high flow rate combi's that will fill
a bath zippo. They're not proper combis, they're just sometimes called so by the marketing department. The proper high rate combis are actually boilers integrated with an internal heat bank. There's nothing wrong with them, provided they are sized to not run out of store filling a bath at full pelt. Christian. |
#8
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... More misinformation. There are high flow rate combi's that will fill a bath zippo. They're not proper combis, A combi is a heating and hot water system all in one box with no external Tanks or cylinders. Hence the name "combi" from combination. It is a "one box" solution. You just connect up the cold pipe in, hot pipe out and a flow * return to the rads with a gas pipe. They save a hell of a lot of time and space and are cheaper to install. The proper high rate combis are actually boilers integrated with an internal heat bank. Some are, some have an integral unvented cylinder inside the box too. The ECO-Hometec gives a flowrate of 22 litre/minute, which is infinitely continuous, if that is what you mistakenly mean by a "proper combi". There's nothing wrong with them, provided they are sized to not run out of store filling a bath at full pelt. You lack knowledge of the various types of "combi" available. This is very sad, |
#9
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Condensing Boiler problems
A combi is a heating and hot water system all in one box with no
external Tanks or cylinders. Hence the name "combi" from combination. Yes, but the term does now seem to mean an instantaneously heated system, rather than a storage based one. However, it is only a name and I see no reason to argue over that. The important thing is matching the performance of the system to the expectations of the user. Some are, some have an integral unvented cylinder inside the box too. The ECO-Hometec gives a flowrate of 22 litre/minute, which is infinitely continuous, if that is what you mistakenly mean by a "proper combi". 22 lpm is too slow for me. I'd rather lose the infinitely continuous and gain immediate gratification at the expense of a little loft space. However, 22 lpm would run a pretty excellent shower, or two good ones, so could be very useful for a household with 2 showers where baths are infrequent. Some are, some have an integral unvented cylinder inside the box too. The only one I've seen is the Keston Duet, but there isn't an overall box. You can see the separate cylinder, boiler and framework. Are there any other makes? I would have thought that an integrated heat bank would generally make more sense for a unit designed down to a small size in a common casing, especially when they'd rather they could be installed by a CORGI without further qualifications. Christian. |
#10
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Condensing Boiler problems
In article , Christian
McArdle wrote: Some are, some have an integral unvented cylinder inside the box too. The only one I've seen is the Keston Duet, but there isn't an overall box. You can see the separate cylinder, boiler and framework. Are there any other makes? I would have thought that an integrated heat bank would generally make more sense for a unit designed down to a small size in a common casing, You mean like a Potterton Powermax? http://www.potterton.co.uk/products/...owermaxHE.html -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
#12
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... A combi is a heating and hot water system all in one box with no external Tanks or cylinders. Hence the name "combi" from combination. Yes, but the term does now seem to mean an instantaneously heated system, rather than a storage based one. However, it is only a name and I see no reason to argue over that. The important thing is matching the performance of the system to the expectations of the user. Some are, some have an integral unvented cylinder inside the box too. The ECO-Hometec gives a flowrate of 22 litre/minute, which is infinitely continuous, if that is what you mistakenly mean by a "proper combi". 22 lpm is too slow for me. I'd rather lose the infinitely continuous and gain immediate gratification at the expense of a little loft space. However, 22 lpm would run a pretty excellent shower, or two good ones, so could be very useful for a household with 2 showers where baths are infrequent. Some are, some have an integral unvented cylinder inside the box too. The only one I've seen is the Keston Duet, but there isn't an overall box. You can see the separate cylinder, boiler and framework. Are there any other makes? Ariston, Glow Worm did one. The Powermax is now an unvented cylinder and now classed asa combi, and a few others around. The unvented cylinders store water at approx 80C blending it down. I would have thought that an integrated heat bank would generally make more sense for a unit designed down to a small size in a common casing, especially when they'd rather they could be installed by a CORGI without further qualifications. CORGI doesn't come into it. A thermal store/combi has the advantage that the store can be any shape for better packaging and is two stage in output. When the store is depleted it reverts to approx 11-12 litres/min. |
#13
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... A combi is a heating and hot water system all in one box with no external Tanks or cylinders. Hence the name "combi" from combination. Yes, but the term does now seem to mean an instantaneously heated system, rather than a storage based one. To clarify for you: Firstly, a combi is a "combination" of the heating and water system in one case, eliminating external tanks and cylinders, and generally supply hot water at high main pressure. To confuse a little, some can run at very low pressures and even off tanks. Generally most are fed from the mains. It is generally a matter of mounting the boiler and connect up the pipes. The expert designers have done the hard work for you and put all in one case. There are three types of combi: 1) The Infinitely Continuous Combi - Heats cold mains water instantly as it runs through the combi. It never runs out of hot water. This is the most common type of combi, generally having lower flowrates than Nos 2 & 3 below. The largest flow rate instant combi is a two bathroom model, 22 litres/min ECO-Hometec. Being a condenser it is very economical too. http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk 2) Unvented Cylinder Combi - An unvented cylinder is a similar to a conventional cylinder but run off the high-pressure cold mains. A combi with an integral unvented cylinder has approx 60 litre cylinder heated to approx 80C, with a quick recovery coil that takes all the boilers output. A fast acting cylinder thermostat ensures the boiler pumps heat into the cylinder ASAP with a recovery rate from cold around 5-8 mins (Ariston claim 8 mins). The 80C water is blended down to about 45-50C. e.g's, Ariston Genus 27 Plus, Glow Worm, Powermax. 3) Heat Bank Combi - Incoming water is instantly heated running through a plate heat exchanger (as is most instantaneous combi's) that takes its heat from a "domestic hot water only" store of water at approx 80C (instantaneous combi's take the heat from a heat-exchanger heater via the burner). A fast acting thermostat ensures the boiler pumps all of its heat into the store ASAP with a recovery rate about 5-8 mins from cold. The 80C water is blended down to about 45-50C. They are generally two stage, in that when the thermal store is exhausted it reverts to what the bunrer can produce, which isapprox 11-12 litre/minute. e.g. Vokera & Worcester floor standing models (standard washing machine sizes). N.B. The heat bank is a variation of a thermal store, but is "not" a thermal store in the conventional sense in that a coil carrying cold mains water runs though a store of hot water kept at about 80C. Heat-banks are far more efficient and give higher flowrates than conventional coiled thermal stores. The stainless steel plate heat-exchangers do not scale up so easily. 4) Combined Primary Storage Unit (Not classed as a combi, but a derivative of a combi, but still a one box solution, so still in the same family) These are a combination of a large thermal store and boiler in one casing. The units are large (larger than standard washing machine size) and floor mounted. The heating is taken off the thermal store, with in many cases the DHW taken off the store using a plate heat-exchanger (heat-bank). Unlike the Heat-bank in 3) above the thermal store supplies heating and DHW. They are available from 1 to 2.5 bathroom models. Gledhill do an excellent condensing version, the Gulfsream 2000. http://www.gledhill.net Nos. 2) 3) & 4) have high flowrates. No. 1 "generally" has low flowrates but there are always exceptions and some can be high - e.g. ECO-Hometec infinitely continuous combi; actually has a very high flowrate. Nos 2), 3) & 4) use stored water, but in different ways. Unlike No. 1 they will eventually run cold, but that takes quite a time, hence they are referred to as "two bathroom" models, having the ability to fill two baths with very fast recovery rates. As hot water is being drawn off the high rating burner is also reheating. Very rare do these combi's run out of hot water in average use. When taking one shower the burner may be re-heating faster than what can be drawn-off. There are combi's that give hot water and heating simultaneously - Combined Primary Storage Units do. Most don't as they are hot water priority. |
#14
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Condensing Boiler problems
In message , IMM
writes There are numerous makes of condensing boilers. What make(s) In general, a condensing boiler is "no" more complex than a regular boiler. Anyone who says differently knows ***k all about them. BG had the Ideal ICOS on their list but were not pushing it because of initial reliability problems. Ideal addressed the issue by taking the fan control off the main control board and now all is fine. Really ? I can categorically state that that is not correct Considering the age of a majority of condensing boilers available in the UK, I would call most of them a disaster -- geoff |
#15
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Condensing Boiler problems
In message , Tony Bryer
writes In article , Christian McArdle wrote: Some are, some have an integral unvented cylinder inside the box too. The only one I've seen is the Keston Duet, but there isn't an overall box. You can see the separate cylinder, boiler and framework. Are there any other makes? I would have thought that an integrated heat bank would generally make more sense for a unit designed down to a small size in a common casing, You mean like a Potterton Powermax? http://www.potterton.co.uk/products/...owermaxHE.html This page cannot be displayed - see, even the internet has morals -- geoff |
#16
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Condensing Boiler problems
On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:23:02 -0000, "IMM" wrote:
Firstly, a combi is a "combination" of the heating and water system in one case, eliminating external tanks and cylinders, and generally supply hot water at high main pressure. Does this mean that all the radiators are at mains pressure? If so, does changing from a conventional system to a combi mean replacing all the radiators? Jim |
#17
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Condensing Boiler problems
"geoff" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes There are numerous makes of condensing boilers. What make(s) In general, a condensing boiler is "no" more complex than a regular boiler. Anyone who says differently knows ***k all about them. BG had the Ideal ICOS on their list but were not pushing it because of initial reliability problems. Ideal addressed the issue by taking the fan control off the main control board and now all is fine. Really ? Yes. According to the Ideal rep. Considering the age of a majority of condensing boilers available in the UK, I would call most of them a disaster I wouldn't. |
#18
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Jim Hatfield" local@localhost wrote in message ... On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:23:02 -0000, "IMM" wrote: Firstly, a combi is a "combination" of the heating and water system in one case, eliminating external tanks and cylinders, and generally supply hot water at high main pressure. Does this mean that all the radiators are at mains pressure? No, not at all. The hot water and the rads are separate. If so, does changing from a conventional system to a combi mean replacing all the radiators? No. |
#19
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Condensing Boiler problems
On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:53:33 +0000, Jim Hatfield local@localhost
wrote: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:23:02 -0000, "IMM" wrote: Firstly, a combi is a "combination" of the heating and water system in one case, eliminating external tanks and cylinders, and generally supply hot water at high main pressure. Does this mean that all the radiators are at mains pressure? If so, does changing from a conventional system to a combi mean replacing all the radiators? Jim No it doesn't. The radiators form a separate circuit. People often make the confusion when the word "conventional" is used. There are actually at least four parameters defining a boiler where the word "conventional" is used to mean that it doesn't have/do the particular thing. Open vented vs. sealed ===================== This means that the primary heating circuit is topped up and expansion allowed using a small tank in the loft (open vented) vs. circuit topped up via a non-return valve from the mains - connected when required - and expansion done with a closed vessel with diaphragm. non-combi vs. combi ================== whether or not the boiler (within its case) heats the domestic hot water directly or not - description by IMM. non condensing vs condensing =========================== Whether or not the boiler has an internal arrangement to recover the latent heat of condensation from the exhaust gases and thence achieve a higher efficiency. non system vs system =================== whether or not the boiler has the pump and possibly controls and expansion vessel inside the case. There are typical correlations. Combi boilers more often than not require to run on sealed radiator circuits. They quite often have the expansion vessel and pump inside as well. So the real question is more one of "does a sealed system imply a radiator change?" and the answer to that is no, as long as they are in good condition. Radiator valves may need to be changed if they are old and tending to weep. The pressure used is typically under 2 bar so rather less than mains pressure and not hugely greater than an open vented system in the scheme of things. It is possible and may be beneficial to convert an open system to sealed anyway if the boiler will allow it (read boiler spec). It eliminates air being drawn in to the system, makes filling easier and saves a little bit of space. More details at Ed Sirett's sealed system FAQ ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#20
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Condensing Boiler problems
In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote: The only problem with the EcoMax 824 is that it won't fill a bath any time soon. Still good for showers, if that's your thing (much better than any gravity fed traditional system). I take it you've never tried the likes of an Aqualisa shower fed 22mm from a gravity fed system with a reasonable head? -- *I love cats...they taste just like chicken. Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#21
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Condensing Boiler problems
On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:49:41 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 9 Mar 2004 04:28:57 -0800, (Mika) wrote: Hiya All, I would take remarks from anybody at BG with a pinch of salt, especially anybody evading tax by doing jobs on the side for cash. Yep, especially since doing a replacement job _to the standards laid down by the manufacturer and at law_ will require the guy to spend more than a couple of hours moonlighting. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
#22
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
... non system vs system =================== whether or not the boiler has the pump and possibly controls and expansion vessel inside the case. From what I have seen some boiler manufacturers just use the word 'system' to denote boilers which would be better described as 'sealed system'. Michael Chare |
#23
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Condensing Boiler problems
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:52:28 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Chare"
wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . non system vs system =================== whether or not the boiler has the pump and possibly controls and expansion vessel inside the case. From what I have seen some boiler manufacturers just use the word 'system' to denote boilers which would be better described as 'sealed system'. Michael Chare Teminology is used loosely, which is what makes it confusing. You really have to look past the names given and see what is actually inside, There are system boilers which will only run on open vented circuits (not so many now) and some that will run on both as well as sealed only. Unfortunately, "system" seems to be used to describe anything which contains more than a heat exchanger, gas valve, safety device and thermostat (i.e. more than the bare minimum) ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#24
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:52:28 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Chare" wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . non system vs system =================== whether or not the boiler has the pump and possibly controls and expansion vessel inside the case. From what I have seen some boiler manufacturers just use the word 'system' to denote boilers which would be better described as 'sealed system'. Michael Chare Teminology is used loosely, which is what makes it confusing. You really have to look past the names given and see what is actually inside, There are system boilers which will only run on open vented circuits (not so many now) and some that will run on both as well as sealed only. Unfortunately, "system" seems to be used to describe anything which contains more than a heat exchanger, gas valve, safety device and thermostat (i.e. more than the bare minimum) Terminology has now settled. A system boiler has a pump and pressure vessel inside, so is only used for a sealed system - some may have a built-in pressure loop, others do not. You just connect it up and still have to install 3-way or 2-way zone valves. A "heating" boiler has no pump or pressure vessel and can be open vented or sealed. You have to install all the relevant pumps and kit yourself externally. The terms heat bank and thermal store are still mixed up too: - A heat bank uses a pump and a plate heat exchanger for the DHW take off. - A thermal store has in integral immersed coil. |
#25
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Condensing Boiler problems
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote: Unfortunately, "system" seems to be used to describe anything which contains more than a heat exchanger, gas valve, safety device and thermostat (i.e. more than the bare minimum) I can see the advantage to an installer of having everything in one, but given that the pump and motorised valve(s) are likely to need replacing before the boiler (although given the problems some have this might not be the case), wouldn't external mounting actually be the better option if space isn't at a premium? -- *Why does the sun lighten our hair, but darken our skin? Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
#26
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Condensing Boiler problems
In article , Geoff wrote:
You mean like a Potterton Powermax? http://www.potterton.co.uk/products/...owermaxHE.html This page cannot be displayed - see, even the internet has morals It works from here. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
#27
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Condensing Boiler problems
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:19:47 -0000, "IMM" wrote:
Terminology has now settled. Yes and no. You still see the terms used loosely. A system boiler has a pump and pressure vessel inside, so is only used for a sealed system - some may have a built-in pressure loop, others do not. You just connect it up and still have to install 3-way or 2-way zone valves. A "heating" boiler has no pump or pressure vessel and can be open vented or sealed. You have to install all the relevant pumps and kit yourself externally. The terms heat bank and thermal store are still mixed up too: - A heat bank uses a pump and a plate heat exchanger for the DHW take off. - A thermal store has in integral immersed coil. A heat bank can also have a coil if it's an indirect one - in order to separate the bulk water from the sealed primary ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#28
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Condensing Boiler problems
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:26:23 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote: In article , Andy Hall wrote: Unfortunately, "system" seems to be used to describe anything which contains more than a heat exchanger, gas valve, safety device and thermostat (i.e. more than the bare minimum) I can see the advantage to an installer of having everything in one, but given that the pump and motorised valve(s) are likely to need replacing before the boiler (although given the problems some have this might not be the case), wouldn't external mounting actually be the better option if space isn't at a premium? Having the pump internal allows it to be modulated as well by the boiler controller, thus dropping the flow rate to match reduced output as the boiler modulates down. It would be even better if a standard like Opentherm became more prevalent so that thermostats, pumps and other devices could be mixed and controlled by different vendors' equipment and controllers. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#29
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:19:47 -0000, "IMM" wrote: Terminology has now settled. Yes and no. You still see the terms used loosely. A system boiler has a pump and pressure vessel inside, so is only used for a sealed system - some may have a built-in pressure loop, others do not. You just connect it up and still have to install 3-way or 2-way zone valves. A "heating" boiler has no pump or pressure vessel and can be open vented or sealed. You have to install all the relevant pumps and kit yourself externally. The terms heat bank and thermal store are still mixed up too: - A heat bank uses a pump and a plate heat exchanger for the DHW take off. - A thermal store has in integral immersed coil. A heat bank can also have a coil if it's an indirect one - in order to separate the bulk water from the sealed primary I said for the DHW take off. A heat bank can be heated by electric immersions if you want. |
#30
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Condensing Boiler problems
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:26:23 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote: In article , Andy Hall wrote: Unfortunately, "system" seems to be used to describe anything which contains more than a heat exchanger, gas valve, safety device and thermostat (i.e. more than the bare minimum) I can see the advantage to an installer of having everything in one, but given that the pump and motorised valve(s) are likely to need replacing before the boiler (although given the problems some have this might not be the case), wouldn't external mounting actually be the better option if space isn't at a premium? Having the pump internal allows it to be modulated as well by the boiler controller, thus dropping the flow rate to match reduced output as the boiler modulates down. Ideal say all the components of their boilers can be changed within 15 minutes. No need to change a full pump, just the pump head. It would be even better if a standard like Opentherm became more prevalent so that thermostats, pumps and other devices could be mixed and controlled by different vendors' equipment and controllers. And pigs will fly. |
#31
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Condensing Boiler problems
In message , IMM
writes "geoff" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes There are numerous makes of condensing boilers. What make(s) In general, a condensing boiler is "no" more complex than a regular boiler. Anyone who says differently knows ***k all about them. BG had the Ideal ICOS on their list but were not pushing it because of initial reliability problems. Ideal addressed the issue by taking the fan control off the main control board and now all is fine. Really ? Yes. According to the Ideal rep. I'm glad you didn't qualify to be a doctor Considering the age of a majority of condensing boilers available in the UK, I would call most of them a disaster I wouldn't. Well, you wouldn't would you? -- geoff |
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Condensing Boiler problems
In message , Tony Bryer
writes In article , Geoff wrote: You mean like a Potterton Powermax? http://www.potterton.co.uk/products/...owermaxHE.html This page cannot be displayed - see, even the internet has morals It works from here. That was another NTL set top box crashes on my part -- geoff |
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Condensing Boiler problems
"geoff" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes "geoff" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes There are numerous makes of condensing boilers. What make(s) In general, a condensing boiler is "no" more complex than a regular boiler. Anyone who says differently knows ***k all about them. BG had the Ideal ICOS on their list but were not pushing it because of initial reliability problems. Ideal addressed the issue by taking the fan control off the main control board and now all is fine. Really ? Yes. According to the Ideal rep. I'm glad you didn't qualify to be a doctor Considering the age of a majority of condensing boilers available in the UK, I would call most of them a disaster I wouldn't. Well, you wouldn't would you? No I wouldn't. |
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Condensing Boiler problems
I take it you've never tried the likes of an Aqualisa shower fed 22mm
from a gravity fed system with a reasonable head? The problem is that the gravity system can't provide the pressure. OK, if well designed, they can provide good flow rates (i.e. for a Victorian style drencher), put you'll never get a nice pounding from the pulse function without a bit of push. That needs at least 1 bar, preferably more. That's over 10m of head. Many people can't afford to buy an entire block of flats so that a tank can go on the roof. Christian. |
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Condensing Boiler problems
In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote: I take it you've never tried the likes of an Aqualisa shower fed 22mm from a gravity fed system with a reasonable head? The problem is that the gravity system can't provide the pressure. OK, if well designed, they can provide good flow rates (i.e. for a Victorian style drencher), put you'll never get a nice pounding from the pulse function without a bit of push. That needs at least 1 bar, preferably more. That's over 10m of head. Many people can't afford to buy an entire block of flats so that a tank can go on the roof. It depends, I suppose, on what you want. I prefer a drenching to a high pressure dribble. -- *Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental Dave Plowman London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
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Condensing Boiler problems
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:42:10 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:
I take it you've never tried the likes of an Aqualisa shower fed 22mm from a gravity fed system with a reasonable head? The problem is that the gravity system can't provide the pressure. OK, if well designed, they can provide good flow rates (i.e. for a Victorian style drencher), put you'll never get a nice pounding from the pulse function without a bit of push. That needs at least 1 bar, preferably more. That's over 10m of head. Many people can't afford to buy an entire block of flats so that a tank can go on the roof. If you want serious flow and pressure buy a flat (on a losih storey) in a large 1930's block with _central_ heating. What is adeqaute flow/pressure for a shower is a matter of personal taste and expectations (fulfilled/unfulfilled). -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
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Condensing Boiler problems
Ed Sirett wrote:
If you want serious flow and pressure buy a flat (on a losih storey) in a large 1930's block with _central_ heating. Ooh yes yes yes. My old Bayswater flat in a mansion block, you could fill the deep bath faster than you could get undressed. -- Toby. 'One day son, all this will be finished' |
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